Kineticist (first impressions)


Rules Discussion

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The blasts are a lot like the DnD v3.5 Warlock with an elemental theme, shape and essence are now form and substance but the one trick pony seems to have a few more tools in the box but at a price, the new burn (implying burning up your bodies own energy reserves). I'm very much going to enjoy playing a pyrokineticist aka The Human Torch.
Based on theorycraft so far the only problem I can see is all the types are hyper mobile and knowing my players they will abuse this to no end but we shall see when we try them out.


Well, at a glance I think that there's a line missing from the Telekineticist to limit the amount of Temporary HP they can gain from their Defense. As it stands, they can spend a large amount of time, say the same hour that the prepped casters would use for spells, spending move actions to reduce their Burn and stack up a ridiculous amount of regenerating Temporary HP. Could probably use a fix before going to print to avoid nigh infinite HP shenanigans.


This class is not "top of the list" in interest for me....but it looks good. I would like to see a more "eldritch" version that's not so tied to existing elemental themes....

Paizo Employee Designer

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RogueMortal wrote:
Well, at a glance I think that there's a line missing from the Telekineticist to limit the amount of Temporary HP they can gain from their Defense. As it stands, they can spend a large amount of time, say the same hour that the prepped casters would use for spells, spending move actions to reduce their Burn and stack up a ridiculous amount of regenerating Temporary HP. Could probably use a fix before going to print to avoid nigh infinite HP shenanigans.

Check the first post in the kineticist thread. The word "blast" was removed somehow in edit. You can't reduce the cost of non-blasts by spending a move action.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Check the first post in the kineticist thread. The word "blast" was removed somehow in edit. You can't reduce the cost of non-blasts by spending a move action.

That makes more sense, thanks for the response!


I note that burn damage is dealt as non-lethal damage. The 3rd level ability for undead bloodline for sorcerers (which can be obtained via eldritch heritage or the necklace associated with that bloodline) grants DR 5/- against non-lethal damage. Since this is a reduction rather than an immunity, it circumvents the caveat that a kineticist incapable of suffering burn damage cannot accept burn.

I propose that the following line be added:

"Burn damage cannot be reduced or shared (for example by a shield other spell) in any way."

Better yet, have burn tracked separately from non-lethal damage to avoid any other potential loopholes.

"Burn functions like and stacks with nonlethal damage for the purpose of determining when you become staggered or fall unconscious. If the total of your burn and nonlethal damage is equal to your total hit points, all further non-lethal damage is treated as lethal damage and you take additional damage equal to any additional amount of burn you receive. Burn cannot be reduced, healed or transferred (for example by a shield other spell) in any way without a full night's rest. A kineticist incapable of suffering nonlethal damage cannot accept burn, and a kineticist can’t choose to accept more than 1 point of burn in a single round."

Paizo Employee Designer

FiddlersGreen wrote:

I note that burn damage is dealt as non-lethal damage. The 3rd level ability for undead bloodline for sorcerers (which can be obtained via eldritch heritage or the necklace associated with that bloodline) grants DR 5/- against non-lethal damage. Since this is a reduction rather than an immunity, it circumvents the caveat that a kineticist incapable of suffering burn damage cannot accept burn.

I propose that the following line be added:

"Burn damage cannot be reduced or shared (for example by a shield other spell) in any way."

Better yet, have burn tracked separately from non-lethal damage to avoid any other potential loopholes.

"Burn functions like and stacks with nonlethal damage for the purpose of determining when you become staggered or fall unconscious. If the total of your burn and nonlethal damage is equal to your total hit points, all further non-lethal damage is treated as lethal damage and you take additional damage equal to any additional amount of burn you receive. Burn cannot be reduced, healed or transferred (for example by a shield other spell) in any way without a full night's rest. A kineticist incapable of suffering nonlethal damage cannot accept burn, and a kineticist can’t choose to accept more than 1 point of burn in a single round."

Hmm...I would imagine you couldn't apply that DR to the nonlethal damage from burn any more than to thirst or hunger, since they aren't from physical blows.

Even so, your point stands that saying it can't be reduced or is separate or both is not a bad thing!

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Just rolled up a dwarven kineticist. First impression is that it looks pretty badass, although playing might get a bit boring since it's kind of a one-trick pony. But without playing the character in a session, it's too early to tell.


Mark Seifter wrote:
FiddlersGreen wrote:

I note that burn damage is dealt as non-lethal damage. The 3rd level ability for undead bloodline for sorcerers (which can be obtained via eldritch heritage or the necklace associated with that bloodline) grants DR 5/- against non-lethal damage. Since this is a reduction rather than an immunity, it circumvents the caveat that a kineticist incapable of suffering burn damage cannot accept burn.

I propose that the following line be added:

"Burn damage cannot be reduced or shared (for example by a shield other spell) in any way."

Better yet, have burn tracked separately from non-lethal damage to avoid any other potential loopholes.

"Burn functions like and stacks with nonlethal damage for the purpose of determining when you become staggered or fall unconscious. If the total of your burn and nonlethal damage is equal to your total hit points, all further non-lethal damage is treated as lethal damage and you take additional damage equal to any additional amount of burn you receive. Burn cannot be reduced, healed or transferred (for example by a shield other spell) in any way without a full night's rest. A kineticist incapable of suffering nonlethal damage cannot accept burn, and a kineticist can’t choose to accept more than 1 point of burn in a single round."

Hmm...I would imagine you couldn't apply that DR to the nonlethal damage from burn any more than to thirst or hunger, since they aren't from physical blows.

Even so, your point stands that saying it can't be reduced or is separate or both is not a bad thing!

Glad to be of help. =)


Very excited to play the telekinetic. I think this one is the most flexible and has the most creative possibilities. Melee and missle combat, ranged manipulation, flight, making shields plus all the fun of using TK as creatively as you can...not a one trick pony,

I can see water as Ice being fun too...come on, who doesn't wanna be iceman ?

Paizo Employee Designer

Charlie Brooks wrote:
Just rolled up a dwarven kineticist. First impression is that it looks pretty badass, although playing might get a bit boring since it's kind of a one-trick pony. But without playing the character in a session, it's too early to tell.

Going earth to match dwarf or playing against type?

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Mark Seifter wrote:
Charlie Brooks wrote:
Just rolled up a dwarven kineticist. First impression is that it looks pretty badass, although playing might get a bit boring since it's kind of a one-trick pony. But without playing the character in a session, it's too early to tell.
Going earth to match dwarf or playing against type?

Earth because I like the image of psychically tossing boulders around.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Is there at least a way to bypass energy resistance..?


Azten wrote:
Is there at least a way to bypass energy resistance..?

The pyrokinetic does seem to be at a steep disadvantage because of this

Scarab Sages

A question for Mark, because I saw this come up on one of the society pages on Facebook.

Does the Kineticist's blast Spell-Like-Ability function like the Alchemist's Supernatural Bomb ability, in that the activation and throw of each bomb is counted as the single attack action?

In terms of the Kineticist, would using the Blast provoke one or two attacks of opportunity from someone with combat reflexes? Would it be one, where the activation of the ability and the attack are one and the same, or would it be two, where the activation creates that matter, and the attack launches it. If it is the latter, is activating it a free action? Also, are you able to make iterative attacks at higher level (or if subject to a haste spell) as is, or do you need to get a wild talent, similar to the alchemist's Fast Bombs discovery?

Broken down into points:

How many attacks of opportunity does the Kineticist's blast provoke?

Can you make multiple attacks per round when you have a high enough BAB/are under the effect of Haste? If so, is there a Wild Talent pre-req doing so?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Sorry if I'm asking a dumb question (I probably am..) but at first level for a, lets say, air kineticist you get one of the air blast powers (lets say you choose Air Blast), and you also get a wild talent from the air list, lets say, Air's reach. Are we ok so far?

At second level you gain the Air defines talent enveloping winds, and a further air wild talent, lets say Air Cushion. Is that right?


I don't know the answer to that one either. I don't think you get to pick the 1st level one though.

Paizo Employee Designer

Apocryphile wrote:

Sorry if I'm asking a dumb question (I probably am..) but at first level for a, lets say, air kineticist you get one of the air blast powers (lets say you choose Air Blast), and you also get a wild talent from the air list, lets say, Air's reach. Are we ok so far?

At second level you gain the Air defines talent enveloping winds, and a further air wild talent, lets say Air Cushion. Is that right?

Looks great; you're well on your way to becoming a true aerokineticist! Remember, speed and range are your friends. You don't have the raw offense of fire or the tough defense of earth, but if the pyrokineticst and terrakineticist can't keep up with you? That's your edge!

Dark Archive

Maybe fire is a suboptimal choice for energy damage, but there's an awesome feel with pyrokineticist since I can basically build up a Prince Zuko clone and be just as badass. I absolutely love the Avatar-ish potential in this class.


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First glance, I love the Kineticist. The fact that blasting is considered suboptimal in PF is frustrating, since what I want to do as a caster is just lasers. At last, they have this, and based around at-will blasting with bonuses rather than Vancian spellcasting. It's a warlock revamp with more (but very fittingly) generic flavor. It's also finally a class that lets us just pick one element and go with it, since even sorcerers couldn't really have everything they knew be based around their element.

But on that topic, it's a little hard to just be /lightning/. I frequently run into this - where lightning isn't allowed its own elemental category... Anyway, my real issue here is the lack of lightning themed air talents. No 'other talents' except the 'all elements' ones, and for infusions we get chain lightning at 10th. Until that we just get Magnetic and the generics. Especially obnoxious is that we can't apply Torrent to lightning... I get that it's not exactly the flavor of 'torrent' but it seems a lightning bolt should get to apply to the line infusion. In fact, is feels to me like a lot of the quintessential form effects - become line, become burst, become cone - should be pretty generic. Since mix-n-matching is part of the fun here I wish it weren't so restrictive. I see that in the case of the bull rush infusions, the same ability is given twice on different flavor and element restrictions- perhaps add more duplicates or near duplicates to spread the love on shapes? Then I request to just add more lightning - thundercrack substance infusion, a lightning-leap as a utility (aside from just the ride the blast... Which, for the record, I love), stuff like that.

Secondly I take issue with the name 'Kineticist.' It's not bad but... Let me begin with my nitpick about 'Telekinecist.' It's very ironic that the prefix 'tele' is added to the objects-thrower. Seems to make sense, because 'Telekinesis,' except that 'tele' refers to 'with the mind,' which applies to the entire class, whereas 'Kinetic' is what really describes the object throwing of the Aether focus. Which comes into the bigger issue that the class is based in a word that really describes one of its five focuses.

Now, with that comic irony poked at I do offer more than 'eh I'm not sold on the name' (I'm not sold on 'Occultist' either but I don't have a better suggestion). The flavor here is people channeling raw elemental/aetherial energy through their body - this is brilliantly illustrated by using CON and the awesome Burn mechanic. They aren't just commanding forces like so many other classes, they're bringing them in through their body. It's their physical endurance that determines how well they can channel and command those forces, and using their body as a conduit is taxing when they're running such dangerous forces through themselves. Because that's what they are. Conduits for raw energy. With so many referencing Avatar in respond to this class (of which, for the record, I am a fan), I'm going to reference InFamous (can you tell I like Lightning yet?). But I don't suggest this as a reference - I suggest picking it because it fits, InFamous being coincidental. I think it really hits home the flavor they were going for, whereas Kineticist seems to say "I move objects with my mind. But you can also pick an element." So if 'Conduit' was simply a word that hadn't come to the designers, I offer the suggestion. Or, perhaps, SuckerPunch actually trademarked the term 'Conduit' in reference to special powers. In which case, moot point.


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Kindulas wrote:
Secondly I take issue with the name 'Kineticist.' It's not bad but... Let me begin with my nitpick about 'Telekinecist.' It's very ironic that the prefix 'tele' is added to the objects-thrower. Seems to make sense, because 'Telekinesis,' except that 'tele' refers to 'with the mind,' which applies to the entire class, whereas 'Kinetic' is what really describes the object throwing of the Aether focus. Which comes into the bigger issue that the class is based in a word that really describes one of its five focuses.

Not exactly. The prefix 'tele' means 'over a distance', while the suffix 'kinesis' means 'movement'. So you have telekinesis (movement over a distance), aerokinesis (movement of air), terrakinesis (movement of earth), pyrokinesis (movement of fire), and hydrokinesis (movement of water). Makes perfect sense.

Now, my first impressions? A 3.5 warlock, but shoehorned into a single elemental type, with a blast that is easily resistible and with spell like abilities that are restricted by element choice. Great for emulating an 'Avatar'-like concept but in my opinion very inferior to the warlock that clearly inspired it.


Fair correction of 'tele,'
Still, I think Conduit is more evocative of the themes and feel considering CON, burn, and the gather energy ability.

Also, I think the flavor here fits the mechanics better than the 3.5 Warlock. I adore the Warlcok flavor, but as people channeling the power of dark entities, why do they have a big theme of 'variations on a basic blast?' Now the warlock did a lot more than that, I know, and I get that your complaint isn't a flavor based one but really how constrained it's options are - which is similar to one of my own really, so I'm not really arguing with you at all in this - But my point, nonetheless, is just that the 'have a vanilla at will Attack, now here's some ways to reshape it' feels more at home with this flavor of 'you're not a spellcaster, you don't have access to complex powers - you have raw elemental force, this one basic thing that you can do and control, but you can learn to get more creative in your applications of said single power. Warlocks gain power from dark entities, makes sense that they should get a wide range of complex spells. Which, I understand there were a lot of invocations to do various things for the Warlock, but the basic Eldritch-blast mechanic feels better served by this skin.


Aether is where I will be playing, I like the idea of being able to do maneuvers as well as the blasts, which adds some versatility to what I can do on my turns. I kinda wish i had more skill points to play with but the flavor and feel of it seems fantastic. I think with the right feats (which I am sure many will be included in the final product) the class will truly excel :-D thank for the fun new class!

The Exchange

So, a potentially stupid question about the "Force Ward" ability of the telekineticist: they way I understand it it works as follows

1) When activated you gain temporary hitpoints equal to your class level

2) Those hitpoints always disappear first when you take any damage of any sort

3) You can accept a point of burn to increase the force of the ward by half your class level until the next time you recover burn

4)

But... wouldn't accepting a point of burn deal nonlethal damage to you equal to your class level? which in turn means that by investing resources into the force ward you actually reduce your total HP pool? (cost of taking burn = class level nonlethal damage, benefit is (0.5 X class level) temporary HP).

At first I figured that because the Force Ward regenerates slowly, maybe you want to "charge" it while in a safe environment so that you'll have regenerated the Ward to it's full capacity before entering combat... but, the total number of hitpoints will still be lower. Meaning that you are lowering your total HP for the benefit of having some of it regenerate before your next encounter. Seems like a poor decision to me...

Paizo Employee Designer

Lord Snow wrote:

So, a potentially stupid question about the "Force Ward" ability of the telekineticist: they way I understand it it works as follows

1) When activated you gain temporary hitpoints equal to your class level

2) Those hitpoints always disappear first when you take any damage of any sort

3) You can accept a point of burn to increase the force of the ward by half your class level until the next time you recover burn

4)

But... wouldn't accepting a point of burn deal nonlethal damage to you equal to your class level? which in turn means that by investing resources into the force ward you actually reduce your total HP pool? (cost of taking burn = class level nonlethal damage, benefit is (0.5 X class level) temporary HP).

At first I figured that because the Force Ward regenerates slowly, maybe you want to "charge" it while in a safe environment so that you'll have regenerated the Ward to it's full capacity before entering combat... but, the total number of hitpoints will still be lower. Meaning that you are lowering your total HP for the benefit of having some of it regenerate before your next encounter. Seems like a poor decision to me...

It depends on what you're looking for. One thing it does is turn hits into misses. If you consider the extreme example where you burn away everything you can into force ward, consider a level 10 kineticist with 20 con and 98 hp. She has a force ward for 10 hit points normally, but she burns down to 18 normal hit points to have a force ward of 50. Now, she's certainly able to take less damage before going unconscious (68 instead of 108 without spending the burn), but most of her effective hp regenerate automatically with an hour pause, and she turns those hits into misses, avoiding nasty on-hit kicker effects like poison, paralysis, grab, etc. A more typical usage for her might be to burn herself x3 for a 25 force ward to cap out her feel the burn ability.

The Exchange

Thanks! :D

If I may ask another less intelligent question - I guess I didn't quite understand how blasts and wild talents work. Can a kineticist use any her blast an unlimited number of times per day? It seems so. Which seems fine.

But then, there are the Wild Talents. Some of them have a limit on the number of times you can use them by costing burn points, but others have a burn cost of 0. Let's take for example "Flame Jet", which you can have as early as level 4. You can use a standard action to shoot yourself 60 ft. in any direction. Let's say I wish to get somewhere quickly. In each of my rounds I take a standard action to blast myself 60 ft. forward, and then I move normally another 30 ft. With my normal move action, then reactivate Flame Jet on the next round. An easy, comfortable pace of 15 ft. per second that I can keep up all day.

Seems a bit much for such a low level character.

Paizo Employee Designer

Lord Snow wrote:

Thanks! :D

If I may ask another less intelligent question - I guess I didn't quite understand how blasts and wild talents work. Can a kineticist use any her blast an unlimited number of times per day? It seems so. Which seems fine.

But then, there are the Wild Talents. Some of them have a limit on the number of times you can use them by costing burn points, but others have a burn cost of 0. Let's take for example "Flame Jet", which you can have as early as level 4. You can use a standard action to shoot yourself 60 ft. in any direction. Let's say I wish to get somewhere quickly. In each of my rounds I take a standard action to blast myself 60 ft. forward, and then I move normally another 30 ft. With my normal move action, then reactivate Flame Jet on the next round. An easy, comfortable pace of 15 ft. per second that I can keep up all day.

Seems a bit much for such a low level character.

Well, you're hustling in that case, since you're taking both a move and standard each round, so after the first hour you have to roll on it. But otherwise, yeah flame jet is pretty cool that way. You can even push yourself up to a high up ledge if you like!


So, the blast effects, many list as 'Ranged Attack', some as 'Ranged Touch Attack'. I'm assuming the kineticist is considered proficient with his own blasts, but what about other feats/abilities that affect ranged attack abilities? Is there Weapon Focus (blast)? Can you sneak attack with a blast?


I have some concerns about the Occult Adventures playtest.

Reading through the forums, it seems the playtest is more like have a 'fun day optimizing with these new rules.'

Rather than an actual playtest. To my knowledge, playtesting is about finding out what is wrong or right with these newly devised classes. And it can be pretty tedious yet the end result is much better.

There are exceptions of course (and a small exception), forum contributors who analyze skill point allocation and class ability descriptors.

Maybe a closed playtest could net better results.


I don't think there has been enough time for any real playtesting to go on. Right now, the comments are just theory-crafting from first read-throughs. Once the characters hit some tables, that is when the playtest really begins.


CraziFuzzy wrote:
I don't think there has been enough time for any real playtesting to go on. Right now, the comments are just theory-crafting from first read-throughs. Once the characters hit some tables, that is when the playtest really begins.

Fair enough, in due time we will find out I guess, I hope you are right.

Silver Crusade

The Telekinetic Blast ability really bothers me, I can see a lot of table argument over this one. The main problem is that you have to throw an unattended object (so small stones and fingernail clippings will do the trick) and I see no end arguments from players when it comes to the subject of using alchemists fires, jars full of bees, flasks/barrels of oil....

The language is pretty clear that weapons and similar object aren't supposed to work, but since it doesn't seem to matter what size the object has... can't we simply remove it?

This ability could be nice to kick away the enemies weapon after it has been disarmed, but I would rather avoid the arguments.

Grand Lodge

From first Read-Through, I see the Kineticist's biggest flaw is an inability to deal with DR or Energy Resistance or worse, Immunity.

GM: You see a small Fire Elemental
Pyrokineticist: Well, I'm useless, I run away.

Some of this can be mitigated with Expanded Element ta level 7, and I honestly do see too many people not taking it at level 7 which makes me wonder why bothering making it a selection and not just give it at level 7?

Also, I am seeing a glaring hole in their abilities. Shouldn't they be receiving resistance versus their own element?

Over all, I am seeing Multicassing possibilities, but a pure Kineticisit has some serious flaws.

I'll be building a Tengu Pyrokineticist anyway (despite the -2 Con) and playing it in PFS. (Will select Kinetic Fist as first Wild Talent)

Silver Crusade

On second thought, is there any reason for Kineticists not to wear the heaviest armor available? Either by taking the feats or dipping into fighter? Without those they seem a bit vulnerable (+ multiclassing gives them some weapon choices).


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
On second thought, is there any reason for Kineticists not to wear the heaviest armor available? Either by taking the feats or dipping into fighter? Without those they seem a bit vulnerable (+ multiclassing gives them some weapon choices).

Their blasts are ranged attacks using dex, and armor limits dex. They're also best at range in most situations (there's almost certainly an archtype that changes this), so medium armor slowing their movement might be a pain in their ass. Medium-armor kineticists are probably a solid choice; Heavy-armor might be an option if there's an archtype to change their attack stat.

The Exchange

Drake Brimstone wrote:

From first Read-Through, I see the Kineticist's biggest flaw is an inability to deal with DR or Energy Resistance or worse, Immunity.

GM: You see a small Fire Elemental
Pyrokineticist: Well, I'm useless, I run away.

Well, the kineticist receives medium BAB,can use some armor and doesn't need to invest money into his blasting being good, so I anticipate that even in cases where their blasting doesn't do anything they will at least be able to contribute something. And as you said this is mostly a concern for the lower levels, once they get a second form of blast this problem is mostly solved.

Quote:

The Telekinetic Blast ability really bothers me, I can see a lot of table argument over this one. The main problem is that you have to throw an unattended object (so small stones and fingernail clippings will do the trick) and I see no end arguments from players when it comes to the subject of using alchemists fires, jars full of bees, flasks/barrels of oil....

The language is pretty clear that weapons and similar object aren't supposed to work, but since it doesn't seem to matter what size the object has... can't we simply remove it?

Agreed, this does seem to be a problem that I can't see an immediate way of avoiding without changing the way this ability is written.

Shadow Lodge

Lyee wrote:
Their blasts are ranged attacks using dex, and armor limits dex. They're also best at range in most situations (there's almost certainly an archtype that changes this), so medium armor slowing their movement might be a pain in their ass. Medium-armor kineticists are probably a solid choice; Heavy-armor might be an option if there's an archtype to change their attack stat.

Armor doesn't restrict dexterity for other things, the max dex is only for how much of your dex bonus applies to ac.

PRD wrote:
This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to AC that this type of armor allows. Dexterity bonuses in excess of this number are reduced to this number for the purposes of determining the wearer's AC. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearer's ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesn't affect any other Dexterity-related abilities.

Of course if you're not proficient in the armor, you're taking the ACP on attack rolls, so you'd want to take the prof feat or multiclass.

Silver Crusade

Still reading, I just wanted to write this down, is there a way to deal with alignment based DR?
Low level options to deal with swarms seem to be rare to nonexistent.
Fire Sculptor... does that mean a level 1 character can move walls of fire?


Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
Lyee wrote:
Their blasts are ranged attacks using dex, and armor limits dex. They're also best at range in most situations (there's almost certainly an archtype that changes this), so medium armor slowing their movement might be a pain in their ass. Medium-armor kineticists are probably a solid choice; Heavy-armor might be an option if there's an archtype to change their attack stat.

Armor doesn't restrict dexterity for other things, the max dex is only for how much of your dex bonus applies to ac.

PRD wrote:
This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to AC that this type of armor allows. Dexterity bonuses in excess of this number are reduced to this number for the purposes of determining the wearer's AC. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearer's ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesn't affect any other Dexterity-related abilities.
Of course if you're not proficient in the armor, you're taking the ACP on attack rolls, so you'd want to take the prof feat or multiclass.

Well I've been playing that wrong for 3 years, thanks for the info!

Silver Crusade

Fire Jet... ok I don't know if this ability was inspired by avatar or dragon ball, but I like it.

Ice Patch, though completely original ^^ opens up several questions, like can other party members follow you? How about your enemies, can they jump/walk to you on that ice bridge? I assume that the ice is supposed to melt to vapor, but adding the word "harmlessly" could help.

Kinetic Healer:....considering that you can ignore the burn cost by taking a move action.... every aether or water Kineticist can heal the complete party after every combat?
And even in combat the healing is pretty good. That can't be right.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just wanted to bring this up for clarification, and start a thread in case other people have things to bring up as well.

The following is under Kineticist:

Wild talents are typically spell-like abilities.
All wild talents have a required kineticist level, and most
have an effective spell level. However, blast and defense wild
talents are always considered to be a spell of a level equal
to half the kineticist’s level (maximum 9th level at level 18).
A kineticist cannot normally select blast or defense wild
talents when she gains a new wild talent.

Can typically be changed to "Are spell-like abilities unless otherwise stated"?

Also, the way it's worded it looks like Blast and Defense wild talents are considered to be spells and not spell-like abilities. Is that intended?

Dark Archive

It's not right Sebastian. The move action only applies to blast talents, not to general ones.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

The Telekinetic Blast ability really bothers me, I can see a lot of table argument over this one. The main problem is that you have to throw an unattended object (so small stones and fingernail clippings will do the trick) and I see no end arguments from players when it comes to the subject of using alchemists fires, jars full of bees, flasks/barrels of oil....

The language is pretty clear that weapons and similar object aren't supposed to work, but since it doesn't seem to matter what size the object has... can't we simply remove it?

This ability could be nice to kick away the enemies weapon after it has been disarmed, but I would rather avoid the arguments.

Theres actually a bigger problem then the one you see.

Quote:


Telekinetic Blast (Sp): You throw whatever unattended object
happens to be nearby at a single foe as a ranged attack. The
object must weight 5 lbs
. per kineticist level you possess
or less. If you hit, the target and the thrown object each
suffer an amount of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing
damage equal to 1d6+1 + your Constitution modifier. This
damage increases by 1d6+1 for every 2 kineticist levels you
possess beyond 1st. Spell resistance does not apply. Even
if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or
other unusual object, the attack does not use any of the
magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals the
telekineticist’s blast damage.

I dont know if thats supposed to be at most, or at least. But it definately presents a large problem as written. The whole idea that there has to be unattended objects available in the first place is going to be a problem. I can think of tons of situations where there are no small objects around. There is also no definition of 'nearby'. How far is nearby? 10ft? 30ft? 100ft? 1000 ft?

This ability will cause arguments for just about every aspect of it.
I would strongly recommend making the basic blast just a blast of force or something more straight forward.

Maybe make an archetype or something that specializes in throwing 'things' that accounts for all the weird cases (like throwing things that would have obvious effects if they hit things ALA alkemist fire). But making it the base blast of the Aether element is a bad idea.

Shadow Lodge

The TK Blast is somewhat worrisome in that if you don't have a GM who understands the issues inherent with it and doesn't want to work with the player to make the ability 100% relieable. I'd prefer an untyped force blast (or a typed blast that's not reliant on the environment).

Otherwise, to avoid table/environment variation, every Teeker will need to carry a rock/frying pan/bowling ball/etc, drop it as a free action and then start tossing it around.


Drake Brimstone wrote:

From first Read-Through, I see the Kineticist's biggest flaw is an inability to deal with DR or Energy Resistance or worse, Immunity.

GM: You see a small Fire Elemental
Pyrokineticist: Well, I'm useless, I run away.

Some of this can be mitigated with Expanded Element ta level 7, and I honestly do see too many people not taking it at level 7 which makes me wonder why bothering making it a selection and not just give it at level 7?

Also, I am seeing a glaring hole in their abilities. Shouldn't they be receiving resistance versus their own element?

These are all very good questions I'd like to see answered.

Dark Archive

I was under the impression that the TK blast's writeup was mostly fluff, as I would have just asked the GM to describe the room and then start throwing random things off the mantle at the enemies. I can see the use of pushing disarmed weapons away, or throwing a shelf into a doorway to create cover.

Silver Crusade

Mergy wrote:
It's not right Sebastian. The move action only applies to blast talents, not to general ones.
From the playtest document wrote:

Burn (Ex): At 1st level, a kineticist can overexert herself
to channel more power than normal, pushing past the
boundaries that are safe for her body. Some of her wild
talents offer her the option to accept burn in exchange for a
greater effect. For each point of burn she accepts, a kineticist
suffers one point of nonlethal damage per character level.
This damage cannot be removed by any means without a
full night’s rest. A full night’s rest removes all burn and
all associated nonlethal damage. A kineticist incapable
of suffering nonlethal damage cannot accept burn, and a
kineticist can’t choose to accept more than 1 point of burn
in a single round. This limit rises to 2 points of burn at
6th level, and it rises by 1 point of burn for every 3 levels
thereafter. A kineticist can never choose to accept burn if
it would put her total points of burn over her Constitution
modifier + 3, though she can be forced to accept more burn
from a source outside her control.

If she has both hands free, as a move action, a kineticist

can visibly gather energy or elemental matter around her,
allowing her to reduce the total burn cost of a wild talent
used in the same round by 1 point (to a minimum of 0
points).[/b] If she takes any damage while gathering power
and before the kinetic blast that releases it, she must make
a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage dealt + effective
spell level of her kinetic blast) or lose the energy in a wild
surge that deals her 1 point of burn.

Kinetic Healer is listed under other wild talents, I can see why the "before the kinetic blast that releases it" portion is confusing, but yeah, if I am wrong they should spell it out directly.

EDIT: Just saw the errata, you are correct.

Paizo Employee Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The word "blast" was in the submitted document after "total burn cost of a" and before "wild talent" (I'm staring at it right now). Somehow it was lost in editing, which a canny poster noticed shortly after the document was released. Please check the first post in the general kineticist thread for all updates; I'll try to keep it completely up to date!


Mark Seifter wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:

Thanks! :D

If I may ask another less intelligent question - I guess I didn't quite understand how blasts and wild talents work. Can a kineticist use any her blast an unlimited number of times per day? It seems so. Which seems fine.

But then, there are the Wild Talents. Some of them have a limit on the number of times you can use them by costing burn points, but others have a burn cost of 0. Let's take for example "Flame Jet", which you can have as early as level 4. You can use a standard action to shoot yourself 60 ft. in any direction. Let's say I wish to get somewhere quickly. In each of my rounds I take a standard action to blast myself 60 ft. forward, and then I move normally another 30 ft. With my normal move action, then reactivate Flame Jet on the next round. An easy, comfortable pace of 15 ft. per second that I can keep up all day.

Seems a bit much for such a low level character.

Well, you're hustling in that case, since you're taking both a move and standard each round, so after the first hour you have to roll on it. But otherwise, yeah flame jet is pretty cool that way. You can even push yourself up to a high up ledge if you like!

MATH TIME!

avg. walking speed = 4 mph
avg. running speed = 8 mph
avg. sprint speed = 15 mph

30' move = 3.41 mph
30' double move / hustle = 6.82 mph
30' unencumbered run (cannot be sustained, essentially is a sprint) = 13.64 mph
30' move & Flame Jet hustle = 10.23 mph OR 3.41 mph ascending & 3.41 mph laterally

Flame Jet =/= OP
Mathematics = Fun
Knowledge = Power


Kolokotroni wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

The Telekinetic Blast ability really bothers me, I can see a lot of table argument over this one. The main problem is that you have to throw an unattended object (so small stones and fingernail clippings will do the trick) and I see no end arguments from players when it comes to the subject of using alchemists fires, jars full of bees, flasks/barrels of oil....

The language is pretty clear that weapons and similar object aren't supposed to work, but since it doesn't seem to matter what size the object has... can't we simply remove it?

This ability could be nice to kick away the enemies weapon after it has been disarmed, but I would rather avoid the arguments.

Theres actually a bigger problem then the one you see.

Quote:


Telekinetic Blast (Sp): You throw whatever unattended object
happens to be nearby at a single foe as a ranged attack. The
object must weight 5 lbs
. per kineticist level you possess
or less. If you hit, the target and the thrown object each
suffer an amount of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing
damage equal to 1d6+1 + your Constitution modifier. This
damage increases by 1d6+1 for every 2 kineticist levels you
possess beyond 1st. Spell resistance does not apply. Even
if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or
other unusual object, the attack does not use any of the
magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals the
telekineticist’s blast damage.

I dont know if thats supposed to be at most, or at least. But it definately presents a large problem as written. The whole idea that there has to be unattended objects available in the first place is going to be a problem. I can think of tons of situations where there are no small objects around. There is also no definition of 'nearby'. How far is nearby? 10ft? 30ft? 100ft? 1000 ft?

This ability will cause arguments for just about every aspect of it.
I would strongly recommend making the basic blast just a blast of force or something more...

I would highly recommend against making it something as bland as a basic blast of force. Yes there should be clearer rules on the limits of the blast, but something as easy as a handful of pebbles would allow you to use the character just fine. Free action drop a stone, standard fling it at an opponent. From the blast:

The
object must weight 5 lbs. per kineticist level you possess
or less. (Bolded mine)

This also allows for clever play such as kinetically smashing items like alchemists fire against a foe for bonus effects like splash damage or lighting your foe on fire.

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