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Jodokai's page

FullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 832 posts (887 including aliases). No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 8 Pathfinder Society characters. 2 aliases.


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Phasics wrote:
How is this thread still going ? .....

Really? This is the thread that amazes you? Haven't been on the boards long I guess. There are still arguments going on that the devs have already given an answer to. This is mild by comparison to most arguments.

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Actually, the devs have already chosen which way to 'round' in this case, and it says so in the ability itself!

That was a long post that is completely wrong. Look at what is written:

has fewer Hit Dice than half the swashbuckler's character level

Is 3 fewer than half of 6? No. You get panache.

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
It should also be mentioned that 'Pathfinder math' does not say that half of seven equals three!

The rule book actually says exactly that word for freakin' word.

PRD wrote:

Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.

bbangerter wrote:
I'm curious if you think your stance is also the RAI? The only value in arguing RAW is so you can get to the RAI, then accept that or house rule it differently if you don't like it.

My stance is almost exclusively from RAI. Given the general feel of Pathfinder, it seems like the Devs (I don't know what PDT means) want the heroes to have the advantage. It's been stated that CR = Level - 1 because of this very reason. I get the general impression, that when possible, you err in favor of the players. When I first posted the question, I was thinking 5th level, which is the difference between level 2 and level 3 enemies. At 5th level it's not really much of a difference. Then I considered level 3. When you're 3rd level you'd only get panache back with a level 2 monster. That doesn't seem in favor of the player at all. This is what has me convinced that RAI is to round down. I don't know that's the case, but I believe it is.

The fact that the rules completely support that position helps.

Avoron wrote:
Good, we agree. Now, since you don't care whether I call it 1/2X or 2.5, we can just compare 1/2X with 2/5X without actually dividing out the variable to find a specific integer.

Except you are again missing the fact that the slash means division. The real question the Ozy has been repeatedly asking, that no one can answer, is: What is the reason you think this is the only instance in all of Pathfinder that works like this? What evidence is there that this one particular part of the rules works this way when nothing else in the entire game does?

Let me clarify that I have no idea what the Devs will say about this (if they say anything), they may agree with you, but even if they do, it doesn't change the fact that this will be the only mechanic in the entire game that works that way.

Avoron wrote:

You do not need to round because you do not need to divide. When comparing two numbers, both of which are given to you in the problem itself, in order to see which one is greater, there is no need to use integer math.

2/5X is less than 1/2X.

No rounding is necessary, because the problem is not asking for a number at all. And it definitely isn't asking you to calculate a number of HD.

And don't say I'm using "the wrong kind of math." Pathfinder has no rules for how to compare two numbers and see which one is greater, because that sort of rule is unnecessary.

Um you do know that little slash line you're putting between the 2 and the 5x and between the 1 and the 2x means divide right?

The problem is asking you to compare two numbers: half of a level, which is a number that can only be reached by dividing, and HD which is a number. You are comparing two numbers, I don't care what you call them.

fretgod99 wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Nobody questioned rounding the concentration check, even though 'it's not stated anywhere' that you round it. Only one or two people questioned rounding knowledge check DC's, even though, once again, 'it's not stated anywhere' that you round it.
Because these two things aren't necessarily serving the same purpose, as has been mentioned.

This is where I think the biggest disconnect is. Many don't see this as the same thing, and many see it as exactly the same thing. No one is going to convince to other side, just remember to FAQ it everyone!

I still realize no one is going to be convinced until someone from Paizo answers it, but I just think it goes against game design to round up (or however you decide to say it). That would mean a 3rd level could only fight 2 HD monsters. Pathfinder likes to stack things in favor of the players (CR = Level -1), and using the decimal point seems counter to that.

It is silly but no. The Flanking rules only account for melee weapons period, that's it. You do not get flanking bonuses with a ranged weapon. The Monk could use his unarmed strike to get to bonuses though.

MurphysParadox wrote:

Jodokai - I meant more in the area of prerequisites that are transitory. Final Embrace, among other things, requires the 'constriction' special feature. A level 8 human druid can turn into a boa constrictor which has the special feature 'constriction', which the druid gets to use while in that form.

Can the druid, at level 9, take the feat Final Embrace? He doesn't always have constriction, but he can get pick it up whenever he uses wild shape.

Ah apologies, I misunderstood...

I was going to say that a Druid using Final Embrace (for example) had a pretty strong case because of Belts and Headbands adding stats allows you to meet prereqs, but those are considered Permanent Adjustments after 24 hours. Now I'm sort of leaning the other way. I'll have to think about that some more.

MurphysParadox wrote:
There is a bit of a grey area in taking feats for which you do not qualify. If you do not meet the prerequisite for a feat, you cannot use that feat, but that doesn't mean you can't choose to learn it. Most GMs will at least require you to be capable of meeting the feat before you take it, even if only conditionally (a primary example is a druid taking feats based on abilities gained from wild shape).

Actually it's not really a gray area at all. The rules are pretty specific about this:

CRB wrote:
...many of them have special prerequisites that must be met before they are selected

So no a Druid can't take wild-shaping feats before she can wild shape.

First, yes you are effectively rounding up. You're saying a 5th level swashbuckler can only get it back with a 3 HD monster. I don't care how you "really" say it, that is the end result.

Avoron wrote:

Pathfinder has no rules telling you to use division in order to compare one number with another.

You just look at the two numbers and determine which one is higher.

If you aren't using division, what are you using to determining half of a swashbuckler's level?

Avoron wrote:

Look, there are two ways to compare "1/2X" and "2".

One way is to turn 1/2X into a constant, which in this case is 2.5, which rounds down to 2. But the rounding doesn't really make sense, because you're just trying to compare the relative values of the two numbers, and the concept of an integer or a decimal doesn't really apply here. There's no simple answer about how to do the math this way, other than to say "round, because you're supposed to" or "don't round, because it's meaningless". You can't win.

Luckily, there's another way. You can represent 2 in terms of its relationship with X, which in this case is 2/5X. And 2/5X is less than 1/2X. This way is just a straight comparison of ratios, so rounding isn't relevant.

The rules don't tell you to compare these numbers one way or another. So do the math the first way if you want to, but the second way allows us to actually compare the two values as the rule asks us to do.

Either way, the way the game works, you ARE rounding, you just have to decide if you're going to round up, or round down. IF you think it's 2.5 you're rounding up, because you can't have a 2.5 hit die monster, so you're saying it has to be 3 hit dice... rounding up. if you think it's 2, you're rounding down.

I'm personally very disappointed with Occult Adventures. I SO wish they just went in cahoots with Dreamscarred Press and made that system "official".

kinevon wrote:

One question, which may have been answered earlier, I skipped a lot of posts when things went insane:

How does "In general" get translated to "Always"?

Kinevon - Can you find an instance when you don't round? Hangerflying was trying to say that because average hit die has a.5 in it, that proves there is instances that you don't round. That doesn't really wash, as has been pointed out, because you don't round each die you round the total. You can have a .5 in the equation, it just can't end in .5. I believe the consensus from the "5/2=2" crowd is that you round unless told not to, or given specific instructions.

Dave Justus wrote:

To a large degree everything ends up being yes or no. I've already said directly that anytime you calculate a numerical result (a bonus, a DC, damage etc.) the rounding rule clearly applies. I am also well aware of mathematics and understand the functional equivalencies. Clearly, the question is whether a gunslinger of 5th level gets a panache point when he takes out a 2HD creature or if he has to take out at least a 3HD creature.

My question was if anyone had any other examples of an ability like the gunslinger, where the number you get (1 panache) has nothing to do with the comparison that includes a 1/2 value.

Frankly, I thought there were others, and I'm kind of surprised this is the only one anyone seems to know.

The more I think about this, I think you're seeing it as different because there's the third party in there (the panache point), but I'm not sure that it is really different. I mean if you take a knowledge check:

The DC is 14.5 which rounds to 14. I got a 14 so I get that information.

Compare that to:
Half of my level is 2.5 which rounds to 2. The monster's hit die is 2 so I get that panache.

fretgod99 wrote:
You're presuming that we're not ordinarily supposed to resolve all the calculations before rounding down. Again, that's nowhere in the rules. And it leads to silliness. It's like taking average hitpoints at each level. You altenate between high and low average because that extra .5 actually does matter. It accomplishes the same thing as recalculating at every level. Rounding before you finish the calculation is just plain silly.

Except that the calculation is level/2 or in the example 5/2. That's the calculation at the end of it, you round, THEN you compare it to the DC/HD/ or whatever.

Dave Justus wrote:
I've been trying to think of other instances of comparing X to 1/2 of Y in the rules. Anyone have any examples?

Wouldn't the skill DC be an example? You have to compare the DC to your Roll... Then again that's not really Boolean...

The more I think about it, I think it is the same. I mean you either beat the DC or you didn't right?

Okay, so to move this conversation along, I believe that the the rounding issue has been put to bed, you don't need to be told to round you just do it when you need to. I think the next thing we need to figure out is what Dave Justus wrote. Are we actually comparing numbers or just getting a Boolean value of yes/no?

I would argue against that logic because it would be the only times that I know of that would work like that. In every other instance you round, then compare.

Okay people I think we need to reign it in (believe me I do see the irony in the fact that I'm saying that.

It's obvious that people are seeing things differently and no amount of arguing is going to convince the other side.

Just to weigh in my opinion and my reasoning behind it, I would say that a 2 HD monster does in fact grant panache to a 5th level Swashbuckler, supported by the "7 = 3" and the general feeling that in Pathfinder, err on the side of the players. CR = Level -1 so the players have the advantage. I also think when you have to compare the numbers, HD always being whole numbers, you are implicitly being asked to round.

I'm not saying this to convince anyone, it isn't anything that hasn't been said before, just my personal feelings.

All that said, if ya'll would hit the FAQ button on this thread, maybe we can get the problem solved for us.

HangarFlying wrote:
The general rule is you always round down unless specifically told to do otherwise.

Actually the general rule is

"Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3."

My question is: Are the rules asking me to round down? I mean technically you don't have to.

16 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Swashbucklers and Gunslingers get Panache/Grit back if they put down a monster not less than half their level. So if you're 5th level do you get it back from a 2HD monster?

Rounding rules say:"Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value."

This brings into question are the rules asking me to round a result of value?

p-sto wrote:
Eryx, really my main problem with the alignment restriction is that it gets boring after a while. I suppose I have a bit of a soft spot for monks. Of the six PFS characters I've made three have either been monks or taken monk dips. Personally it's boring to have every character with the same personality and it gets a little tiresome trying to come up with multiple interpretations of the same alignment. I've already gotten to the point where I've decided on playing a monk that will struggle discipline required and as a result will frequently be taking atonements.

There are literally an unlimited number of Lawful personalities. I mean one of my favorite characters is a Lawful Good paladin who's a complete @$$hole. He's self-righteous, arrogant, and thinks he's the only one capable enough to succeed. None of those personality traits keeps him from being Lawful Good. A monk has even more leeway. I get wanting to play the young monk struggling with his ordered mind, but doesn't it make sense that if he can't get his mind right, he wouldn't be able to access the powers? You can flavor your atonement as having to spend more time with your Sensei.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Really fun skill-monkey Barbarian build I tried once:

Go Oracle 1, then Invulnerable Rager Barbarian from there. Pick the Lore Mystery and use your 1st level Feat for Extra Revelation (your 3rd level Feat is power attack, your other Feats are mostly Extra Rage Power). Take Focused Trance and Sidestep Secret.

Dump Dex, going Cha instead. Do not dump Int (you can dump Wis a little instead due to the extra Will Save from ) Maybe take a Trait to make Bluff a class skill. Put one Rank in all the Knowledges and max out the social skills. Go with the standard Superstition/Spell Sunder/Beast Totem Rage Power lineup. Be AM BARBARIAN as well as the party face and winning all the Knowledge checks forever outside of combat.

When I did this, I also went Half Orc for Sacred Tattoo (I also took Shaman's Apprentice and Skilled), took Divine Favor as a spell, and took Fate's Favored, plus the Human Barbarian FCB, but that's not really a skill-up, just a combat buff. Also, there's no reason not to pick the Lame Curse for this build.

This doesn't replace a Rogue, it's a different kind of skill monkey (more like a Bard), and it does basically give up Come And Get Me (though almost nothing else) but it sure sounds fun. Sadly, I only got to play it for the first few levels. It was a lot of fun for those levels, though.

I did the same thing with a Paladin. Really effective especially since it was a PFS character.

EDIT: A really cool Skill Monkey I made was Inquisitor 6/ Sleepless Detective 4 I took the Conversion Inquisition so I use WIS for the social skills. Automatically get a perception check for traps, secret doors, and clues. He is a very effective Rogue replacement.

Imbicatus wrote:

The flanking rules make it clear that you only flank an opponent with a melee attack. In order to sneak attack you must flank your target.

RAW, you cannot gain a sneak attack on a ranged attack from flanking.

Actually they're not clear. It doesn't say you don't flank when you're using a ranged attack, it only says you get a bonus for using a melee attack. The only thing that really clarifies it is the Gang-Up FAQ which implies that only melee flanks.

My suggestion is to take the Amateur Swashbuckler feat. You already have a high CHA, this will allow you to to Parry attacks to negate them completely, and get a couple of free AoO.

I'd vote Swashbuckler. High damage output, but can also do cool things like Trip and Disarm.

1 person marked this as a favorite.
DM Under The Bridge wrote:

Don't believe the monk is as weak as they say. There are many style feats that easily power up the monk. You could even go vanilla monk, not try the new monk types and just buff them with strong feats and be good to go.

I think monk/rogue can work, but not in a game with consistently high Acs, unless you are very tricky and often buffed.

They are no where near as weak as people say they are. I'm not sure what "PFS is low level" means since it goes up to level 12 before you get into modules. Not to mention all the newer Adventure Paths are all PFS legal.

A player in our PFS group has played her monk from level 1 to level 16 and has been VERY effective at most levels (1-4 were pretty rough I hear). Her monk is completely vanilla, Panther Style and the Dimensional Dervish feats are the only ones not in Core. The running joke at our games every time her monk completely destroys an encounter we all chant in unison "Yup the monk is underpowered"

As far as the original post: With this character I would be less concerned with your to hit, there are SO many ways to bring that up, as I would be with your AC. Your hit points won't be great, you need a way to keep from getting squashed.

Elemental this is the last time I'm going to respond to you until you show at least some willingness to try to understand what you're responding to. It's very obvious by the post below that you have no idea what's being argued or what the point of what's being said is.

ElementalXX wrote:
I hope you are not coming back to that ultility argument.

This is the first example of you having no idea what the argument is.

ElementalXX wrote:

What are you talking about? zen archer may probably do more damage than non double barreled gunslinger considering how he loses to fighter. Also the way you are phrasing this is basically asking for a special pleading

May, probably...? Really?

ElementalXX wrote:
It however gets more attacks and feats, plus manyshot

At a lower chance to hit. Remember that old addage from you formula users? Hitting is much more important than damage.

ElementalXX wrote:
Instant enemy is a swift action, and seriously favored enemy is hardly the ranger's best class feature

And again, we're back to you having no idea what you're supposed to be arguing.

ElementalXX wrote:
On the top of my mind? Summoner, Archer Paladin, Archer Fighter

I'm not sure how Summoner can do a lot of ranged damage, but a developer has all but said Summoner's are broken, the Paladin doesn't even come close except maybe 3 times per day against 1 enemy. And I doubt a fighter can do it either. They need 2 stats (STR and DEX) and a gunslinger can do everything they can, except a fighter has their weapon training, but a gunslinger gets are +10 to their to hit since most touch AC's are 10 points lower than actual AC's.

wraithstrike wrote:
Jodakai I may have asked this before but I don't remember. How do you determine how much DPR is too much to be able to consistently be dealt?

There is no specific number. My argument stems from actually playing the game. I play the game, I play it a lot. I've seen how in actual play, Gunslingers ruin games. I know that plugging numbers into a formula doesn't paint an accurate picture of actual game play. I laugh my behind off every time I read someone say Monks are under-powered. Saturday we played Tome of the Iron Medusa in a PFS game (PFS mind you) and a 15th level monk could have solo'd the entire thing. My 15th level Ranger couldn't have. The 14th level sorcerer couldn't have, but the Monk could have done it easily. The monk was also the first Pathfinder character she ever made. She had no idea what she was doing and just took feats that sounded cool. I can post the build and you can look at the module if you don't believe me, I'm not making this up. So I know for a fact that formulas are great for theory crafters, but are far from accurate.

The problem is that Gunslingers are ranged, so they almost always get full attacks, and they use touch ac so they almost never miss.

Wraithstrike: I understand this point, but like I said in many games the GM's don't have monsters running from the martials so after round 1 they do tend to get full attacks. I would agree the formula is not 100% fair, but I would not say it has no merit

It's not a matter of running. Like I said, unless the melee character is surrounded by enemies, he's either
1) Not going to get a full attack because he had to move into position.
2) Going to get a full attack against ONE enemy and kill it.

I want to analyze number 2. Let's say we're fighting 10 monsters with 49 hit points and they are all standing 10' from each other, maybe engaged with other party members. The Barbarian can do 6 billion points of damage per round, literally 6 Billion points of damage. the Gunslinger only does 300 points of damage per round. The Barbarian picks his enemy and pounces. He does 6 billion points of damage to 1 enemy. He killed 1 enemy, sure the enemy is now has negative 5,999,999,951 hit points, but that doesn't make him any more out of the fight that if he just had -1 hit point. Essentially that 6 billion points of damage is the same as doing 50 points of damage.

Now it's the gunslingers turn. He shoots the first target and kills it with 50 points of damage, he switches to the next target and kills that one and so on.

So while in theory the Barbarian can do 20 million times more damage than the gunslinger, in actual game play the Barbarian did 50 points of damage, and the gunslinger did 300. In actual game play the Barbarian's DPR is 50 and the gunslinger's is 300. Granted sometimes the barbarian will get ahold of 2 monsters, maybe even 3, but how often does that actually happen? In my experience, not very.

Blakmane wrote:

Sooo the math that shows you can do more DPR with an archer (zen archer, ranger with instant enemy) over a gunslinger w/o double barreled?

Are you just ignoring that?

Like, I get why peeps are upset at double-barreled -- the rules...

There is absolutely no way a Zen Archer can do more damage. If any math says it can, it's wrong or they're using ambiguous rules. Simple logic tells you a Zen Archer can't out DPR a Gunslinger

Zen Archer: 1/3 BAB-ish, doesn't get DEX to damage (or WIS without using a weapon enhancement that no longer exists and wasn't meant for bows) and uses regular AC that at CR 11 averages 10 points higher than regular AC.

A Ranger can only do that damage to certain types of creatures and it's not consistent. Sure they can use Instant Enemy, but that has to be cast on EACH TARGET. So while the Ranger is wasting time casting spells the Gunslinger is destroying every target on the field.

Without the rules stretching of a weapon enhancement that was A) Taken out of Pathfinder (since it isn't in the PRD) and B) Was never meant for Ranged Weapons, the Zen Archer is out of the running, and in actual combat, the Ranger will only win when fighting the exact monsters he has as his most beneficial favored enemy, which won't happen very often.

Without those two, who is in the top 10 RANGED DPR?

That makes me feel better I did miss that 1 grit minimum.


1. The class as a whole. Pistolaro only becomes significantly more broken when you add Signature Deed

2. As I've said from the beginning: DEX to damage plus Touch AC's is the problem.

If you made crossbows work against Touch AC's (without the Bolt Ace Archetype) you wouldn't have much of a problem. It's pretty difficult to get a crossbow to do much damage, so it wouldn't be a problem.

My other point is that comparing the damage to a melee type with a formula doesn't work. If you have a barbarian that does 6 billion points of damage per round, but can only hit 1 monster with 50 hit points, he's essentially only doing 51 points of damage. making the other 5,000,000,049 points of damage he could have done irrelevant. A gunslinger that can do 300 points of damage will be MUCH more effective because he can kill 5 of those monsters doing his full 300 points of damage. The formula can't take into consideration that the ranged attacker will get their full attacks MUCH more than a melee attacker, and the formula assumes that all the damage will be relevant when in reality it won't be very often, or at least not nearly as often as a Gunslinger's.

I also have a problem with the Targeting Deed, which is basic Gunslinger. Being able to knock prone almost any biped on a roll of 2 or higher is stupid. Being able to disarm almost anyone on a roll of 2 or higher is stupid. Luckily Gunslingers do so much damage, people don't use this very often because it's just easier to kill the monster.

Finally my point is this: If you kept Gunslingers exactly as they are, but made them use regular AC, I would be fine with it. DEX to damage for a misfire chance at lower levels.

wraithstrike wrote:
It seems to me like you are selectively choosing certain statements to make it sound like you were singing a different tune.

Yes I'm sure it does seem like that. That's what happens when people selectively read what's written instead of all of it. When it's laid out you're like "Where did that come from" when it's really been there the whole time.

Devilkiller wrote:
Here’s some double barreled pistol math. I don’t play Gunslingers, so I might have missed something (or even several things). I think this should be reasonably close overall though. The order of the feats could probably be more optimal. I was mostly just trying to make sure they'd all fit...

Save some money, or just increase your range to 80' with the Deadshot Vest. Doesn't use any critical magic item slot, is only 6k so you'll get it at lower levels.

wraithstrike wrote:

I understand that, but the OP and others tried to say the gunslinger as a whole was the problem, and my point was that certain builds, not the entire class was the problem. If you take double barreled weapons, give them touch AC, and hand them to another class that class will also do comparable damage. So to me it seems like the problem is double barreled guns, and touch AC, along with dex to damage of course.

That is an excellent point. I mean that bolded point is so good, it probably should have been the basis of my argument from the very beginning... Oh wait...

Jodokai wrote:
...For the record Touch AC's combined with DEX to damage is broken. Not just one or the other.
Jodokai wrote:
'm pretty much done here, you guys don't want to see it cool. It works in your games, great, but you're the minority. Look around at all the threads complaining about Archers. Gunslingers do everything archers can but use touch AC's, so they never miss, and do DEX to damage.
Jodokai wrote:
Your Barbarian's damage depends on full attacks and 3 AoO per round. Do you know how often that actually happens? Very rarely, if ever. I have a friend who plays a Ranger Archer in PFS. She's 9th level so that means 24 pre made scenarios assuming no modules. In those 24 scenarios she has NEVER been hit by an attack. No monsters have ever targeted her. She's an archer she stands in the back and makes full attacks every round. When I play with her I usually use my Invulnerable Rager Barbarian. She out DPR's me by MILES because she can full attack every round, where I rarely get to. She actually doesn't use all of her attacks sometimes so other people can join the fight. I can't imagine the damage she'd do if used touch attacks and got to add her DEX to damage.
Jodokai wrote:
Touch AC is stupidly broken.
Jodokai wrote:
It really doesn't matter which class you try to out do a gunslinger with, unless it uses touch AC's it's not going to be as consistently high.
Jodokai wrote:
I'm really amazed that people can't see the huge problem gunslingers cause. If you don't know by now how powerful archers are it's because you're not playing the game. An archer that gets DEX to damage and goes against touch AC is stupid powerful. Losing iteratives every once in a while due to a misfire is hardly a balancing factor.
Jodokai wrote:

Short Answer: Yes it absolutely is, and To make it worse, the higher level you go, the worse it will be.

Long Answer: I just looked at all the CR 10-11 monsters on D20PFSRD, with VERY FEW exceptions the touch AC's are 10 points lower than the regular AC's (as CR's increase, the disparity becomes even more severe, with very few monsters with a touch AC over 10) So if we assume both your Barbarian and your gunslinger have the same to hit bonus (the gunslinger probably has a better to hit since he doesn't need STR, or CON just DEX and the Barbarian needs CON, STR, a bit of DEX), the gunslinger's 3rd shot has the same to hit chance as the barbarian's 1st. If we assume they both get the same rolls, the barbarian will hit once, the gunslinger will hit 3 times. Gunslingers get automatic DEX damage to their attacks, making them even better than archers, and at 13th level they don't ever misfire.

Jodokai wrote:
He may be, but he really doesn't need to, they really are that broken. I mean we all know how powerful archers are, imagine an archer that gets DEX to damage and gets to use touch AC. Sounds crazy right? Welcome to the Gunslinger.

6 people marked this as a favorite.

I think the problem is that the casters are so used to shining the one time the Rogue gets everything to go right, they're feeling left out.

Seriously, I think they're being... immature about the whole thing. In this one particular fight the Rogue got to shine. I'm sure they've both had their moment in the spotlight, and they have to learn how to share.

Undone wrote:

If you want to argue guns are OP there's a little more of a case for that but it tends to be with unexpected classes like the holy gun or as you noted the fighter archetype.

The gunslinger is not that class.

Really? Further up you said 320 was broken. I get to 350 and now that's fine?

And really what's your point? You're "Lazy Barbarian" can't do 1/3 of the stuff you're talking about. You didn't take Beast Totems, you didn't pay for a permanent enlarge, you didn't buy flying potions (but I guess those don't count anyway)... Hmm I wonder what the Gunslinger DPR would be if I made him permanently enlarged? Add another 2.5 per bullet for 10 bullets, now I'm up to 375. What was your morphing to anything you need at the time barbarian's again?

Also trying to say the gunslinger isn't broken because things are more broken is kind of like saying having your skin ripped off is fun because dying is bad.

boring7 wrote:
Also, touch AC 9 kinda weird. Need a wider variety of enemies.

What's weird about it? Out of the 54 monsters listed as CR 11 on d20pfsrd 32 of them have a touch AC of 10 or less. only two have a touch AC of 20 or higher, one being 20 the other being 25. So no, touch AC of 9 isn't weird at all.

Undone wrote:

Combat Gear potion of haste;
I fell out of my chair laughing. Do you actually think this counts toward your DPR? You buy the boots or you don't get it in a DPR thread unless you can haste as a swift/free.

I'm glad I gave you a laugh because I shot soda out of my nose when you were suddenly permanently Enlarged, could all of a sudden fly, had feather step, and took 3 free feats (beast totem). My entire gaming group still giggles about you including AoO in your DPR.

Undone wrote:
First of all it's not thanks to the potion of haste (Which again I fell out of my chair laughing when I realized thats how you haste) second off even if we allow it you fail to pass the barbarian I made hastily.

That gunslinger was done more hastily so I didn't comb through the magic items looking on how to rage cycle. Not to mention this is my first gunslinger and you've made barbarians before.

But okay I'll play your silly game, Make the cloak +2 and take the boots of speed, and oh look we're gravy again.

As far as the, gun, yeah I'm not playing your game. All it's going to do is be more math and not simulate actual play with terrain, other party members getting in your way etc. etc. The whole problem that you can't seem to get through your head is that you will not get full attacks as often as a ranged character. A lot of rounds you will do 60 points of damage (1 attack) while the gunslinger will do 350. Even if we both get single attacks I do 78 damage you do 59. I can always use two barrels. I can move 30' do 78 damage AND knock the thing prone while you're doing 59 points of damage. I know you don't see that and you never will. No amount of DPR olympics will ever get that through to you.

Undone wrote:

And for the last time the DPR is over 300 to match the barb. You've not broken 300.

Even if we assume you do 280 damage at 12. The HP of a monster is 160 average. You need 320 average to reach broken damage. Killing 1 target a turn is not broken. It doesn't matter how you're doing it.

If you think killing 1 thing around and doing some spare damage is broken then we have vastly different definitions of broken.

Gee, look at my new build, 350 without even trying.


Human gunslinger (pistolero) 12 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 9, 51)
Medium humanoid (human)
Init +11; Senses Perception +3
AC 26, touch 22, flat-footed 13 (+4 armor, +9 Dex, +4 dodge, -1 untyped penalty)
hp 88 (12d10+12)
Fort +12, Ref +21, Will +10
Defensive Abilities nimble +3
Speed 60 ft.
Ranged +1 distance reliable, greater double-barreled pistol +21/+21/+21/+16/+11 (1d8+20/×4)
Special Attacks deeds (dead shot, deadeye, expert loading, gunslinger initiative, gunslinger's dodge, lightning reload, pistol-whip, quick clear, targeting, twin shot knockdown, utility shot, up close and deadly, up close and deadly, up close and deadly), grit (6)
Str 10, Dex 28, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +13; CMD 34
Feats Clustered Shots[UC], Deadly Aim, Gunsmithing[UC], Improved Precise Shot, Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Reckless Aim, Signature Deed[UC], Weapon Focus (double-barreled pistol)
Skills Acrobatics +9 (+21 to jump)
Languages Common
SQ gunsmith, pistol training
Combat Gear potion of haste; Other Gear +3 haramaki, +1 distance reliable, greater double-barreled pistol, belt of incredible dexterity +6, cloak of resistance +3, 10,350 gp
Special Abilities
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Deadly Aim -4/+8 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Grit (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on firearm crit/killing blow.
Gunsmithing You can use a gunsmithing kit to craft/repair firearms and ammo.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Pistol Training (+10, misfire value -2) (Ex) Starting at 5th level, a pistolero increases her skill with one-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a one-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Reload (Double-barreled pistol) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Reckless Aim Your lack of regard for others proves a boon when you fire projectiles into melee.

There he is, in my haste to create the first one, I left out 3 feats (pretty sure I only made him level 11 too, but meh. Now this is with a Haste Potion on, and I used a double barrel instead of a single one, and he still has 10k gold to play with.

You can see if when he shoots both barrels at the same time his to hit is: 17/17/17/12/7, meaning he has a 5% miss chance on a touch AC of 9 with all but his last shot, which is a 10% miss chance. he has ZERO chance of misfire, which makes his gun really expensive, and is completely unneeded, I could save 32k-ish by making it just Reliable instead of Greater, but I wanted to make easy math. Also remember that next level his class will give him a zero miss chance on all pistols, so that could be a straight +4 Distance then.
Now I'll break down his damage math again, since people don't believe it, this is actually going to be higher since I'm using haste now:
Each bullet does
Weapon Damage: 1d8
+20 (Dex+9, Deadly Aim+8, Point-Blank +1, +1 Weapon, +1 Pistol Training)
+3d6 Up Close and Deadly Signature feat means every shot, with not Grit cost. So each bullet does:
With Haste and Rapid Shot, he gets 5 Attacks per round at (Base attack +12, +9 DEX, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 Reckless Aim, +1 Haste, +1 Point Blank, +1 Weapon, -4 Deadly Aim, -2 Rapid shot.)

If he were using a single barreled pistol the damage would be:
5d8 (5 shots x 1d8) The average for 1d8 is 4.5 that means his damage would be 22.5 (5 x 4.5)
Now we have to add the +20 modifier for EACH BULLET which is 100 (5 X 20)
Right now the damage is 122.5 22.5 + 100
Now we have to add in the 3d6 for EACH BULLET. The average of 1d6 is 3.5. it's 15d6 (5 x 3d6) so that comes out to 52.5 (15 x 3.5)
add that to our previous total and now we're up to 175 (122.5 + 52.5)
So the final total for 1 barrel is 175, but he's using 2 barrels, so we double that damage to 350 (175 * 2). That also brings down his to hit by 4 so instead of +21/+21/+21/+17/+12/+7, he's 17/17/17/12/7

Now if you still don't believe that damage is accurate, I really can't help you.

Ok, I quit. You're all right. Stopping a melee attacks with a 10' reach is MUCH harder than stoping a ranged attacker. I don't know what I was thinking. My bad fellas. I thought simple logic would win out, I see now I was mistaken.

For the record Touch AC's combined with DEX to damage is broken. Not just one or the other.

BretI wrote:

Want to see the crossbow used?

Switch all of them to being strength rated, and the amount of time needed to cock them based on relative strength of the crossbow vs the person cocking it. Apply strength modifier to the damage.

The light crossbow then becomes the Str at which you can reload it as a free action and the heavy becomes the best you are willing to winch. A Str 20 crossbow may take multiple rounds to wind, but if you do it before combat it makes a great alpha-strike.

I had the same type of thought once. I realized the same things that were said below your post that it still wouldn't make them used. What I would suggest is that you give the crossbow a STR modifier not based on the STR of the user and call it done, maybe up to a max of +4. They're still worse than bows due to loading times, but low STR characters would favor them because they could still get a plus to damage.

I gave up on that too though. My new idea would be to just make crossbow shots touch attacks. There is no real consistent way to add damage to a crossbow shot without taking the wonky mess that is Bolt Ace, but gives it an edge. Something I want to play test if I ever get around to it.

RumpinRufus wrote:
Inspired Blade also gets an extra damage, don't forget, on top of the bonus feat. I think in terms of DPR it's one of the best (if not the best) Swash build.

I did forget about that, it's an extra 1 damage, but for what you lose I really think it's a horrible choice. I played a PFS game, where I was regular Swashbuckler another guy was Inspired Blade, it was low level I was 2nd he was 3rd, but I walked out of there with full panache he ran out before the final battle was over, which means he lost his precision damage.

Jeremias wrote:
Just one little thing to add: Pistols don't have Touch AC at 30 feet. You have to burn grit for every shot.

Distance on the gun makes it 40', but okay he's 20' away still far enough to be out of the 15' range.


So you would need either 8 grit (unlikely) or you have to take Signature Deed which means your enemy will have cover (because no IPS). At least in my group we use cover. A lot.

And 8 shots without a misfire? The probability for that is 27%. Not very likely.

Greater Reliable has a ZERO misfire chance. Even without, the misfire chance is 2 with Paper cartridges, so he'll usually get 18 shots off without a misfire.

As far as cover, so what? Get your +4 to AC that means the Gunslinger has to hit a whopping 13 AC, which means he only has a 75% chance to hit with his last shot. Ohs nos. Cover also affects the barbarian dropping his to hit chances too.

Really? I would say this is not the case... In our last fight the barbarian had around 3-4 full attacks in 4-5 rounds. And the enemies were not grouped together or something like that. He used two pounces. In the same time I had as many full attacks.

A ranged attacker should have had 5 of 5 full attacks, proving my point.

That said: I still don't get how this fictional pistolero could reload all his pistols. cnetarians routine wouldn't work with me (a pistol really doesn't count as a "small object"!).

I'm not sure where you're getting "all his pistols" He's using ONE gun. Yeah, read that again and take your time. I'm not using some tail exploit or pre-nerf weapon cords. It's ONE gun. Double that if I used the tail. Hell if I really wanted to get creative and use random buffs like the barbarian is, he uses UMD and casts Unseen Servant and reloads that way.

ElementalXX wrote:

Jodokai, you are not getting the point. I mocked your example because you deliberately set a completely convinient set to make a barbarian look bad. First considering said barbarian is fighting 2 CR 11 monsters completely ALONE with complete disregard of any strategy. This is a DEADLY CR 13 encounter vs a 11 level PC.

Second you assume the barbarian WIL NOT have any way to deal with reach, will be a vanilla Barbarian with no optimization or high DR.
But also the comparison is AN OPTIMIZED GUNSLINGER.
You are comparing a schrdinger gunslinger who is also a pistolero and a musket master, has range , damage , ignoresmisfires, doesnt multiclass, has good scores and enough system mastery and you are comparing to vanilla barbarian.

Please, I'm begging you. If you're going to argue and disagree with me, at least take the time to read the thread. I have statted out the gunslinger. Look in the thread and you will see it. The only thing I've changed is removed Reckless Aim and added Cluster Shot. Then I added a +6 Belt. That's it. I haven't changed a thing from that. He's a pistolero.

That's also no "vanilla" barbarian. Do you see how he figured out how to rage cycle? No newbie is going to know that. I took less time building my gunslinger than he did building his barbarian. As a matter of fact, he's the playing with Schrodinger's cat. Taking reach weapons when it's convenient, using fly potions when he needs it, being permanently enlarged. Even with all of that, you still think I'm the one optimizing. That just proves how unbalanced the Gunslinger is.

I didn't deliberately do anything. I picked a random CR 11 monster from the list that I recognized. When I first started this, I had no idea they had 15' reach, I figured it was 10'. That gunslinger is just as "optimized" as the Barbarian. And that really is my point. He looks like an optimized gunslinger because of how awesome it is, but really I just took the feats ANYONE would take for a ranged character and made my gun reliable, again a newbie who just started playing would figure that out.

Yeah you're right it is a deadly encounter, that the gunslinger can get through without getting touched, with 2 full round actions, and that a barbarian who can't morph into what is needed at the time like Undone's does, would be screwed.

You're right the barbarian won't have anyway to deal with reach which is of course EXACTLY MY POINT. It is very easy to keep a melee character from making a full attack, let alone keeping them from getting 3 AoO a round.

I used giant because it was a typical monster found at CR 11. I will say again, the Giant doesn't get close because he's prone. Remember automatically succeeding trip attacks Pistoleros get? 20' away, out of reach of the 15' reach, puts both giants on their butts and takes half their hit points away, second round does the same thing... except he doesn't need to put them on their butts because their dead. Gunslinger didn't take a point of damage.

What if the giants go first on your Barbarian? There's 6 shots to the face you just took and you're dead before the battle begins. Gunslinger's AC is higher than yours and the Giants, so no problem for him... It really starts to suck for the very limited melee barbarian MUCH more than it does for the RANGED Gunslinger when we play the "What If game" but really that's all we're doing at this point. You will never see reason, that Ranged will get more attacks than melee (I really thought that was pretty straight forward for anyone who's actually played the game) and you just want to argue.

As a final thought, the reason people don't bat an eye when the Barbarian hits like a tank is because he rarely gets to do it. Full attack actions and pounces are so hard to come by with any regularity people cheer when it actually goes off. The reason people hate ranged so much, is because it ALWAYS goes off.

Undone wrote:
If he's got distance he's hitting real AC. Not the touch ac you worship.

Not at 30' it's not. You see 30' is greater than the giants 15' of reach.

Suddenly the poor fire giant ends up dead prior to its last iterative because it's HP is too low to survive 60x3. It also has only a 45% chance to make the dazing assault save. Meaning it should never get a full attack based on math.

Except not, because the reach is 15', I was using a cloud giant.

So 20 wis is the minimum to equal superstitious at 12 unless you're human and FCB Then you're just out of luck because your wis will not be high enough. The gunslinger has inferior saves.

Great, so we'll drop STR to 9, CON to 12, and make his WIS 16, now he has a 22... and oh yeah, he's only spent 33k on a gun and 36k on a belt, that gives him plenty for a cloak of resistance, and you've noticed I'm not using Haste at all right?

After the 3rd round when you're dead it is MUCH higher.

Kaisoku wrote:

A lot of GMs forget the effects of cover. +4 AC for having someone or something even slightly in the way means you are now looking at an AC of 13. If it's not within your first range increment (and burning grit like crazy on Deadeye), you are looking at more range penalties.

Speaking of Deadeye. You burn 1 grit per range increment you want your touch AC attack to go over... per attack.
Signature Deed would allow doubling your Touch AC range as long as you have 1 grit, but even then it's still only 40' max with one-handed weapon.
Grit is not a huge resource to burn.

Seeking, Improved Precise Shot, both take care of cover. Not that it really matters, compare a 25 Regular AC to a 9 touch AC. You could have 4 of your party members all blocking your shot and you'd only be down to the same hit chance as them. Being SAD and full BAB, you'll probably still hit more often... and of course that's worst case scenario.

In my experience fights are rarely over 30' let alone 40'. With party members blocking charge lines, and having automatically working trips, there's really no danger. Not to mention when you can pump out 280* points of damage per round every round, you'll get most of the kill shots and make your grit up in no time.

*So you know I'm not exaggerating: 1d8+20+3d6 per shot = 35 damage per shot. 4 shots with rapid = 140. + 4 shots with the double barrel = 280

Theeris wrote:
I sort of feel like the Dervish Dance feat is just too OP. Dex already applies to like a million things, and if its on damage too, why would you ever have strength?

I agree with you about Dervish Dance, that only requires a feat and 2 skill points. Slashing Grace is so hosed up from what it was supposed to be, that it's actually not too bad. Most weapons can't benefit from both DEX to damage and to hit unless you're a Swashbuckler. DEX to hit and damage is very feat intensive and, unless I've missed something, you can't get DEX and a half to damage if you use two hands. That bonus stacks with Power Attack so, most of the time, STR will out damage DEX.

Undone wrote:
Not really no

Great argument. Ironclad, if completely wrong.

Let your barbarian be Enlarged, that gives him a 10' reach, and still not enough to keep from getting pummeled without being able to do a darn thing about it.

The Gunslinger isn't dead because he's got distance, the giants are too busy killing the barbarian, and when they're done with the barbarian he'll just use his no save automatically works confusion spell, or his no save, no CMD, automatically works trip attack.

Assuming he doesn't have any extra items he'll easily have a 20 WIS by this level (14 to start +6 headband) gives him 5 Grit. 4d8+80+12d6 per giant outta kill them both in 2 rounds. That's a single double barrel pistol: 1d8+20+3d6 per shot, they each get 4 of those from two attacks, spends a grit point on each. He'll use 4 grit in two rounds, still have one, kill them both, get two back and only be down 1 until he destroys the next thing the party comes across.

Now before anyone gets confused, I'm not talking about the gunslinger called shot trip, I'm talking about the Pistolero Twin Shot Knockdown deed.

Yeah people forget about that a lot. They do so much damage they don't need it very often, but gunslingers are also the best trip and disarm artists in the game too.

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