|Paizo Pathfinder® Paizo Games|
|About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ|
Thought you were referring to detect evil aura. Sure, if the player is playing a dumb paladin that just blindly opposes everything that might work. It still doesn't change the fact that a paladin shouldn't be traveling with an evil character, let alone an evil character trying to manipulate him.
Except they're 6th level, so none of that actually.
I agree with Heretek. You can't trick him by pretending to gradually repent. Sarenrae gives you one shot, you don't take it, you get smited. there is no:
As far as the "Stop me robbing or save the children", okay I'll save the children, but since we're traveling together, I'll know where you'll be later, and you'll either willingly give everything back, or you'll make a posthumous donation.
The real issue though is the one that's spelled out in the core rulebook. Paladin's can't work with evil characters. Yes, yes stopping an evil god, but you can't be like "Okay we need to stop this evil god in 40 years, so we'll just travel together until then" Or even, there has to be a reason why it has to be that character. Couldn't the paladin find a lawful good sorcerer to stop the evil god with?
I think it should apply to bonus feats at level 1, but shouldn't apply to a specific ability you don't have. For example if it said "bonus Rogue Talent" yes level 1, if it said "Bonus to <Specific Rogue Talent>" you have to wait until you actually have that specific talent. I don't really have any further proof and rules judgment, it's just how I think it should work.
I didn't read anyone else's post, but in my opinion, this sounds like NG taken the the extreme. They will do anything for the greater good. That said, I firmly believe Dr. Doom is Lawful Evil. He wants to rule the world because he really believes he will do a better job and everyone will be better off, but he's willing to kill, torture or anything else to accomplish his goals. So depending on what your character is willing to do... I mean they could start off NG, then as the make more and more compromises for the "Greater Good" gradually slip down the spectrum.
The real problem is your stats. You need to find some way to get DEX to Damage (CHA to damage would be ideal, but I don't think that exists). My advice would be to be a Paladin of Sarenrae and get the Dervish Dance feat.
Since improved init was your first level feat, you could retrain it to Noble Scion: Scion of War. That would give you your CHA to Init.
I have an Aasimar paladin, and I was really excited about the wings, but what I've found out, is that two feats just isn't worth it. The number of times I've found it really helpful I could have just used a Fly potion and been better off, because the potion is double the movement of your wings. Add to that a Paladin only gets 2 skill points so your Fly skill is likely to be pretty low.
Something else you may want to consider is a level of Oracle to get CHA to AC.
Another feat you'll want to look at is Shapeshifting Hunter Ranger will stack with Druid for number of shifts per day. Druid stacks with Ranger for Favored Enemy.
Here's my build, which is sort of the opposite of yours, I really just took a level of Ranger to get Favored Enemy, and some rogue-like skills.
Female half-elf druid (world walker) 7/ranger (trapper) 1 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 43, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 65)
N Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Perception +27
AC 25, touch 14, flat-footed 23 (+8 armor, +2 deflection, +2 Dex, +3 shield)
hp 58 (8 HD; 7d8+1d10+14)
Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +12; +2 vs. enchantments
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +1 scimitar +10/+5 (1d6+4/18-20) or
. . mwk cold iron shortspear +10/+5 (1d6+3) or
. . silversheen dagger +10/+5 (1d4+3/19-20)
Ranged ranged touch attack +8 (As Spell) or
. . sling +8 (1d4+3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (humans +4, undead +2), wild shape 3/day
Druid (World Walker) Spells Prepared (CL 7th; concentration +12)
. . 4th—freedom of movement, life bubble[APG] (DC 19), river of wind[D,APG] (DC 19)
. . 3rd—call lightning (DC 18), fly[D], greater longstrider[ACG], water breathing
. . 2nd—barkskin, eagle's splendor[D], frigid touch[UM], resist energy, wood shape (DC 17)
. . 1st—aspect of the falcon[D,APG], frostbite[UM], hydraulic push[APG], liberating command[UC], liberating command[UC], snowball (DC 16), snowball (DC 16)
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, guidance, light, stabilize
. . D Domain spell; Domain Eagle domain
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +9; CMD 23
Feats Alertness, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Natural Spell, Shapeshifting Hunter[UC], Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Tribal Scars
Traits ease of faith, narrows survivor
Skills Acrobatics -1 (-5 to jump), Diplomacy +15, Disable Device +13, Fly +3, Handle Animal +6, Heal +10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (nature) +14, Perception +27, Sense Motive +19, Stealth +3, Survival +14 (+19 when tracking); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Druidic, Elven, Sylvan
SQ aerial evasion, elf blood, favored terrains (underground +4, urban +2), hawkeye, nature bond (Eagle domain[UM]), nature sense, track +1, trapfinding +1, wild empathy +8, woodland stride
Combat Gear wand of cure light wounds, blood-boiling pill (10), sharpstone sling bullets (20); Other Gear +2 dragonhide breastplate, +2 darkwood light wooden quickdraw shield[APG], +1 scimitar, mwk cold iron shortspear, ranged touch attack, silversheen dagger, sling, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +2, goggles of minute seeing, headband of inspired wisdom +2, lenses of detection, ring of protection +2, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, belt pouch, blanket[APG], fishhook (2), flint and steel, grappling hook, holly and mistletoe, masterwork thieves' tools, sewing needle, signal whistle, soap, spell component pouch, spider's silk rope (50 ft.)[APG], spiritbane spike, string or twine[APG], thread (50 ft.), torch (5), trail rations (5), waterskin, whetstone, 4,975 gp, 9 sp, 2 cp
Aerial Evasion (Ex) While flying you take less damage on a successful Reflex save.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Druid (World Walker) Domain (Eagle) Granted Powers: Your spirit soars with the mightiest and noblest of all winged creatures.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Familiar Bonus: +3 to sight-based Perception checks in bright light You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Favored Enemy (Humans +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs. Favored Enemy (Humans) foes.
Favored Enemy (Undead +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs. Favored Enemy (Undead) foes.
Favored Terrain (Underground +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls when in Favored Terrain (Underground).
Favored Terrain (Urban +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls when in Favored Terrain (Urban).
Hawkeye +3 (8/day) (Su) Swift, gain bonus on one perception check or ranged attack.
Lenses of detection +5 to track with Survival
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Narrows Survivor You gain a +1 trait bonus to Initiative and Sense Motive checks. Sense Motive is always a class skill for you.
Natural Spell You can cast spells while in Wild Shape.
Shapeshifting Hunter Add your druid and ranger levels for favored enemy
Speak with Animals (Ex) Your familiar can communicate with animals similar to itself.
Speak with Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Track +1 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Wild Empathy +8 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Wild Shape (8 hours, 3/day) (Su) Shapeshift into a different creature one or more times per day.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
I really went back and forth between Green Faith Initiate and World Walker. Green Faith Initiate would have made it a much better "Face" with it's bonuses to Diplomacy, but in the end having a Druid with Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain was just too enticing.
I took the Eagle Domain for the bonus to hit with Ranged Touch Attacks and Perception for Trap Finding. Also a Familiar gives me Ranged Cure spells.
Forgot to add cites: Link
John Compton wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Wow, that's impressive.Some REALLY good ideas here.
A hunter- standard melee build with Pack Flanking, Paired Opportunists, and Outflank. A small cat with maxed DEX for tripping, and a Barbarian with Paired Opportunists, and Outflank. Make sure they all have high crit weapons, and unleash.
EDIT: Or a negative channeling cleric that dazes, and a Damphir something.
Something to take into account, I doubt the ranger will actually stay a switch hitter. Eventually (around level 6) the player is going to realize that using a bow is SO much more effective than their sword, they'll just stop using the sword altogether. I say 6th level because that's when they can pick up Point Blank Master and not provoke anymore.
Jayson MF Kip wrote:
I'm not sure one snarky comment qualifies as "[jumping] down Paizo's collective throat", but in my defense this thread has been here since August and has 176 FAQ requests compared to the Pack Flanking thread I couldn't even find the last time I looked.
Or the Paladin read their Code of Conduct and saw:
Paladin's Code wrote:
. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil.
And thought maybe the DeViL could help him defeat a greater evil.
Maybe you should reread the OP. Especially this sentence.
During this plane hopping escapade I thought it would be fun to have the party approached by a deal-making demon. He asked if anyone interested in making a deal please enter his tent.
Great...so what? Or in other words, explain the terms of the deal, who did what to get what? Where was payment for services discussed? You missed the most important part of my post:
Except that's not what happened. Devil said Look, Paladin looked. Here's how it could have gone, and no one would have known which way it would go until the Paladin looked:
Devil: Hey Paladin look.
That's a deal. If a salesman says, "Hey look at this" and you look, you are not all of a sudden obligated to buy it. No deal has been made.
Personally, I think the player should be allowed to roll even if it's impossible to succeed, though the GM should saying something like "Are you sure you want to do that?" if the character can be expected to know how difficult a task is.
The problem with this is that it's completely GM dependent. What one GM says is impossible, another may allow. Since there's no way for the player to know how the GM will rule that particular use, I feel it's only fair to let them know ahead of time.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
No, but with a high enough roll you could jump back up that 1000' cliff to the top. Falling is not a limitation of the skill, it's the addition of falling rules. Acrobatics saying you can negate 10' of falling damage isn't a limitation of the skill if you take damage from falling more than 10' it's just the rules. Acrobatics is limited though, but your movement speed, and really, the only example of this is in acrobatics. None of the other skills are limited at all.
What's the limits on Perception? You could be an invisible statue that makes absolutely no sound at all, and with a high enough perception, I'll know you there. What's the limit on stealth? As long as I bet your perception and make it to concealment before the end of my turn, I can walk right in front of you in the middle of the desert at high noon, and you won't see me.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
I don't think anyone is saying Bluff is a permanent effect (at least I'm not, but I haven't read every post), but what you're suggesting is like the GM saying to the person using stealth, "You moved, your situation changed, so you not stealth anymore"
The way I feel Bluff should work, I convince someone standing outside that the sky is purple, they look up during the conversation in their attempt to prove I'm lying, but I'm so good at lying and convincing people he accepts my rational for why what he is seeing is actually purple. I walk away. He starts to mull it over in his head and the lies start to unravel, and eventually he realizes he's been duped.
In my opinion you're arbitrarily limiting that skill as GM fiat, and you should probably tell the player, "You're pretty sure the Dragon will never believe that" not not even roll.
EDIT: Something I think people are forgetting, is that there is a defense against Bluff: Sense Motive.
What does that mean for bluff? Well, it means that some skills are allowed to be pseudo-fantasy at high levels, and some skills are not. Skills in pathfinder are not created equal, and it's up to each table to decide the pseudo-magicalness of a high modifier bluff.
Why? I mean I get every GM gets to decide how things work in their game, but why are the social skills considered broken because they allow impossible things, but Survival isn't? Why do we accept one but not the other? Why does it seem fair that someone who focuses on getting a high Survival skill do everything that skill allows, but someone who focuses on Bluff can't?
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
High jump is a Ki ability even when it does not use a point of Ki. This is not different than a monks unarmed attacks being counted as magic. To say you are not using Ki is false. While the original monk does not state this explicitly both the Quinggong Monk and the Unchained Monk do state this. To say you are not using Ki or magic is false.
LOL Seriously? That's what you got out of that conversation? Let me help you out then I'll shorten it to the last couple of sentences:
So basically nothing you said refutes my point at all and you're just picking at semantics.
I am not required to respond to every single post you have made for any reason. Irrelevant.
Sure ignore every post that proves you wrong then you'll always be right great plan. o
Your assumption is wrong. You made a strawman argument by misrepresenting the opposition. You clearly don't understand what the definition is despite having the quote here. Either that or you fail to realize why your post was, in fact, a strawman, which is a failure of language comprehension either way. Apparently you don't even understand the definition of ironic. I'm amazed that you argue about complicated language issues when you fail to comprehend the meaning of words.
If you think that was a straw man, I'm not the one who doesn't understand words. If it please explain how what I did is a staw man. I realize you can't, so feel free to ignore this post that proves you wrong too. I made a comparsion. I did not misrrepresent his argument at all. Which brings us back to irony, you attacking my while obviously have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, is very ironic.
But this entire argument is pointless and adds nothing to the thread topic, just like the majority of the rest of your posts, and I will not respond to meaningless and incindiery comments. Good day.
I agree, but I didn't insert myself into your conversation while ignoring the majority of what you said so I could only attack the easy arguments taken out of context of the larger whole. You did that so feel free to climb off your high horse. You came in here just to attack me. You went after the only comment I made that you could attack and went for it. Don't sit there and try to pretend I'm the one being the ass.
I also like how you ignored every other post I made and only concentrated on the one time I used Haste and a Ki point. Nothing to say about perception then hmm?
Okay, my monk alone has a 30 Acrobatics. He's level 11 so has a 60 move speed. that gives him a 42 jump without a single bit of magic or Ki at all. that means he can, without any type of running start, just straight up 10', and that's assuming he rolls a 1 on the d20. It also means that he can, again with no running start just stand in one spot swing his arms and leap 43 feet, or 40 feet in game terms, on a roll of 1 on the d20. So without magic or supernatural ability, or even a running start, I can destroy the world's record for long jump by 10' on a 1. Make it an average roll, and I beat it by 20'. Take out his extra movement and he still beats the world record by 1 foot, again without a running start, and just for the record, the longest standing long jump is 11'. But okay that's a monk, he's mystical. So let's take a Rogue with a 30 Acrobatics. Roll a 1 and he beats the world's record by 4 feet. Average roll (10)he beats it by 9 (for a standing long jump).
Or we can go back to perception if you wish.
I'll spoiler the Logical Fallacy argument, and your incorrect use of irony (which actually is ironic) so as not to further derail.
I'm assuming we do agree that my statement was not a straw-man. As far as irony, since the definition I gave of straw-man exactly matches the definition you posted of straw-man, there is nothing ironic in that statement at all.
I suppose an argument could be made that my statements were argumentum ad absurdum, but it would be a stretch. His argument is that Bluff should be limited to what is plausible. My counter is that there is a lot in this game that is not plausible, which he accepts, so why should Bluff be judged by separate standards, and I gave examples of the implausible things that people accept. You would have to make a case as to why judging Bluff on the same scale as those other abilities is absurd, and that doesn't seem likely.
No argument from me here at all. The skill even says if the lie is intricate it takes longer. I use Diplomacy as an example. When you use Diplomacy to change an attitude it takes at least a minute. Using that scale, to take a lie and make it a fact in that person's mind you have to go though several steps depending on how far from fact it would be to that person. "The sky is purple" is pretty far from fact, so I wouldn't be opposed if a GM said it took 10 minutes or longer.
I would be upset if the GM just makes up rules that hearing ninjas is impossible.
You mean like saying Bluff doesn't say the target believes what you say is true?
Please, I am so sick of people on these forums not knowing what a logical fallacy is. In order for my statements to be a Straw-man, I would have had to say that your argument is X, and then attack X. Since I did not say your argument is X, and I did not attack your position as if it were X, it is not a straw man.
Here's something you refuse to wrap your mind around: Skills in Pathfinder can do unbelievable things. Last weekend I saw a monk roll a 100 on his acrobatics check to jump (with Haste and a Ki point). If this happened in your game, would you allow the monk to leap 100'? This is absolutely impossible to do in real life. Do you allow someone with a 35 perception to hear a bow being drawn through a 1 foot thick wall? I assume the answer is yes since it's in the rules. If you allow those skills to do unbelievable things, why do you limit Bluff to only what you believe is possible? Did you see the movie Dogma? Matt Daimon convinces a Catholic Nun that there is no God using just words in a short conversation in an airport. If you allow all these other action movie actions, like using two weapons offensively at the same time, or shooting 5 arrows a turn, or doing a standing jump of 100', why can't Bluff be used the same way?
EDIT: Oh and if your commoners can beat a 30 DC Bluff check, I'm pretty sure Bluff isn't the problem.
This is my PFS Unchained Rogue at 9th level
Male half-elf rogue (unchained, swashbuckler) 9 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 135, Pathfinder Unchained 20)
CN Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +10; Senses low-light vision; Perception +19
AC 31, touch 18, flat-footed 24 (+7 armor, +1 deflection, +6 Dex, +1 dodge, +2 natural, +4 shield spell)
hp 69 (9d8+21)
Fort +8, Ref +17, Will +7; +2 resistance bonus vs. disease, +2 vs. enchantments, +3 morale bonus vs. fear
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge; Immune sleep; Resist daring
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 adamantine gladius +13/+8 (1d6+9/19-20) or
. . +1 gladius +13/+8 (1d6+5/19-20) or
. . dagger +14/+9 (1d4/19-20)
Ranged hand crossbow +14 (1d4/19-20)
Special Attacks sneak attack (unchained) +5d6
Rogue (Unchained) Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th; concentration +7)
. . At will—minor magic
. . 4/day—major magic
Str 10, Dex 26, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +6; CMB +6; CMD 26
Feats Canny Tumble[ACG], Circling Mongoose, Dodge, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Mobility, Skill Focus (Acrobatics), Spring Attack, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +31, Appraise +5, Bluff +10, Climb +7, Diplomacy +2, Disable Device +22, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13, Knowledge (local) +13, Perception +19, Sense Motive +4, Sleight of Hand +20 (+22 to conceal the ring in a search), Stealth +20, Survival +0 (+2 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +5; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven, Varisian
SQ debilitating injury: bewildered, debilitating injury: disoriented, debilitating injury: hampered, elf blood, rogue talents (combat trick, combat trick, fast stealth, major magic, minor magic)
Combat Gear potion of darkvision, potion of fly, potion of spider climb, potion of touch of the sea, wand of cure light wounds, caltrops; Other Gear +3 mithral shirt, +1 adamantine gladius[UC], +1 gladius[UC], crossbow bolts (30), dagger, hand crossbow, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of incredible dexterity +4, cloak of resistance +3, eyes of the eagle, ring of unquenchable passions, wayfinder[ISWG], backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, chalk (10), cold weather outfit, flint and steel, grappling hook, masterwork thieves' tools, mirror, piton (10), soap, spiritbane spike, thieves' ring, torch (5), trail rations (5), waterskin, 832 gp, 7 sp, 8 cp
Canny Tumble +2 circ bon on melee atk vs. opp whose space you moved through without provoking AoO.
Circling Mongoose Move 5 ft. with each attack vs. a single adjacent foe as a full-attack action.
Cold weather outfit +5 Fort save vs. cold weather.
Daring +3 (Ex) +3 save vs. fear.
Debilitating Injury: Bewildered -2/-4 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes AC pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Disoriented -2/-4 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes attack pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Hampered (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage has speed halved (and can't 5 ft step) for 1 rd.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) Move at full speed while using the Stealth skill at no penalty.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=13) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 13+.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Major Magic (Shield, 4/day) (Sp) Gain the chosen 1st-level spell as a spell-like ability.
Minor Magic (Detect Magic, At will) (Sp) Gain the chosen cantrip as a spell-like ability.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Ring of unquenchable passions +2 resistance bonus on saving throws against disease.
Sneak Attack (Unchained) +5d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
This is the Circling Mongoose two-weapon fighting build. I went swashbuckler archetype because of the bonuses to Acrobatics and the ability to take Combat Trick twice. This is not a simple build, and requires quite a bit of math and figuring on the fly. Building up to Circling Mongoose isn't bad, and Spring Attack is amazing because you can attack from a square an ally is already standing in (see Core Rulebook FAQ) which allows for a lot of sneak attack goodness.
I'll try to break down a combat round with Canny Tumble and Circling Mongoose, and two weapon fighting:
Next round, now that you are adjacent to the enemy, you combine Canny Tumble and Circling Mongoose. You take a 5' step, which provokes, so you use Acrobatics. This accomplishes the same thing as above (denied DEX for that attack, sneak attack, and +2 to hit). If you hit, yiy apply your Debilitating Injury: Bewildered (-4 to AC vs You) you take another 5' step and hit with your off-hand. You're considered Flanking, so that's +2 to hit and you get sneak attack, they are at -4 to AC from your Deb Strike. If that hits, you take another 5' step and hit with your iterative attack with the same benefits as before (+2 and sneak attack for flanking, -4 to their AC). If that hits, instead of applying your Debilitating Injury: Bewildered (-4 to AC vs You), you apply Debilitating Injury: Disoriented (-4 to hit you, -2 to hit anyone else).
This let's you pretty much get sneak attack every time you attack. If you look my Acrobatics is +31 at 9th level so I don't need much more than a 5 on the d20 to beat most CMD's, but that's with a Half-Elf's Skill Focus and a ring of unquenchable passions.
EDIT: I don't take Scout because I can get Circling Mongoose to come online at 8th with the Swashbuckler Archetype (or 9th without it) and the Scout comes online at about the same time. The trade-offs are Scouts keep their Trap abilities, Swashbuckler Archetype doesn't, but Scouts don't get full attacks with sneak attack, Circling Mongoose does.
Fair enough, but don't get upset if you're sleeping and you make a 36 perception check to hear the ninja about to kill you and your GM says "Nope, hearing a Ninja while you're sleeping in impossible, so you're dead"
Heck while we're add it, don't get mad when the GM tells you can't shoot 4 arrows a round because that's impossible. You can't use your Manyshot feat because any kind of accuracy with two arrows on a string is impossible. Two-Weapon fighting is pretty much impossible too. Gee what a boring game.
Yes, allow it. If realism is a problem, you might be playing the wrong game. I seem to be bring this up a lot, but it is relevant. Ever seen a character with a 35 Perception? Not that difficult really. Did you know that with a 1 on a Perception check they could hear a bow being drawn through a 1 foot think wall from 10' away? That's not wonky reading of any rules. Look at the DC for perception checks: Hear a bow being drawn DC 25 through a wall +10 DC 10' away +1 DC. Is that really any more believable?
Someone mentioned Druid, and that really might be something to look at. I have a Druid in PFS, that is VERY versatile. It's a Worldwalker Druid with 1 level of Trapper Ranger. At 5th Level I took the feat Shapeshifting Hunter, which lets Druid levels stack for Favored Enemies, and World Walker gives me favored terrain. With this build, I'm a full caster with favored enemy, and favored terrain, and you have access to Rouge-like skills. I debated long and hard between going Green Faith Initiate for the "Face Skills" or World Walker. In the end I decided on World Walker so the favored terrain could help me with my Rogue skills. In combat I have the option to cast spells, shapeshift, or just wack away with a Scimitar.
After typing all that out I just remembered that you wanted a versatile melee character, not just a versatile character, so I didn't help you much, but maybe someone else can get something out of this.
Switch hitter ranger can effectively come online at level 2.
I'm really not sure what you are looking for though. I mean you dismissed my monk with "I don't want to only aid another." That build has more options than you can shake a stick at but all you see is aid another. Maybe the builds aren't the problem maybe you just aren't seeing the options.
N. Jolly wrote:
Feats are EASILY worth more than ability points in my opinion to the point where I'd love my racial ability adjustments to gain another feat. Losing skill focus is fine for a weapon prof as long as you're going to use it, since a +3 is nice, but a new weapon can completely change the way you play your character.
I'm very much the opposite. It's easier for me to make up feats lost than characteristics lost. It does depend on the build though.
Because I have a 40 AC at level 11 ;) Seriously though it is very similar to what a Bard would do, but Ki "feels" different to spells to me.
I'm also not one to re-fluff and use it as is, and I really like the fluff with this combination. Add in Vow of Peace and/or Vow of Chains, and I just really enjoy it.
Maybe try a non-damaging class? Like a buffer or helper? Maybe take classes, feats, races, archetypes, etc., that improve your flanking and aid another abilities?
This. I combined Ki-Mystic with Sensei and Quinggong. I focused HEAVILY on WIS, took Bodyguard (with the Helpful trait) and Archon Style. This works especially well with a Barbarian in the party. Barbarians typically have low AC's and with the Helpful trait Bodyguard and Archon style you bump it +5, and deflect one attack to yourself. If the attack misses, yay wasted attack, if it hits you, the Barbarian gets an AoO.
Some other neat tricks, is giving everyone in the party Barkskin, allowing party members to re-roll attacks or saves. You're not going to do much damage, but your party will LOVE having you around, and it's a lot of fun seeing where you can help out the most.
Umm did you read any of the posts leading up to this?
Matthew Downie wrote:
If you roll high the king believes you're on a mission from the gods, how the king reacts to that is up to the GM.
People on these boards have a real issue with what I'm about to say, but Paizo will (most likely) never provide rules for how to role-play. There will be no rules for social interactions, I know it sounds scary, but you'll have to trust your GM to handle this type of thing.
I know it sounds like I'm being snarky, but I'm serious. I see this type of thing all the time. People are asking for rules on how to role-play and seem upset when there aren't any. If you doubt that, take a look at all the "Paladin falls" threads. People want a structured list for what does, or doesn't make a paladin fall. They want a list of what is or isn't an "impossible lie". Tell them it's situational and the GM will have to decide what happens based on the situation, and that throws them into a panic.
I get that. I get the suspension of disbelief, but what seems less plausible to you:Situation 1:
"Wait a minute guys, we're in trouble, someone is drawing a bow on the other side of that 1 foot thick stone wall"
Out of those two situations, I would say Situation 1 is much harder to stomach, but we accept it out of hand because of the chart in the Perception skill.
Speaking as someone who's bluffed their way onto more than one military base in more than one country without proper identification, it is absolutely possible. There were times that the guard post was warned ahead of time that someone was going to try to bluff their way past, and was still able to do it.
Why are we so selective in this game? Why do we accept magic missiles, and elves being able to hear a bow being drawn through a wall, but we can't accept someone can convince someone else of a lie? We can't accept that some characters have reflexes so quick, that even if you're ready for them, they can act before you (the whole readying out of combat debate) but we accept that a Rapier made of of a special material can poke through an iron bar. Why is one so acceptable, but the other so far from the realm of possibility that we feel the need to dismiss it? I don't get it.
The same can be said and applied to any situation, so why have a rules forum at all? All answers are "Whatever your GM says".
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Once you leave your bluff is no longer in effect, unless he has not had a chance to confirm it.
I think we agree here, some situations may vary but generally this would be the case.
I agree with most of what Mysteroius Stranger said. I don't make Fighters role-play their attack sequence and then say "Meh you didn't impress me, you don't get to attack this round" so I don't do the same to social skills.
The part I disagree with is that I believe Bluff can convince someone that the sky is purple even if they're looking right at it. To understand my reason, let's look at something more quantifiable than Bluff, let's look at Perception.
I have an 11th level character that has a 35 to perception. If we look at the perception chart, if my character rolls a 1 on a perception check he can hear a bow being drawn from the other side of a 1 foot think wall. Or, again if he rolls a 1, he could sense a creature burrowing underneath him while he was asleep. Now I don't know about you, but that seems pretty far into the realm of superhuman. If perception can do that, why not bluff?
Bluff says that if they lie is impossible, i.e. the sky is purple, then your opponent gets +20 to his sense motive. The chart also says that if you possess convincing proof, you get +10, but I also take that to mean if the opponent has convincing proof that you're lying, like seeing a blue sky, they get +10. So if your Bluff can beat your opponents sense motive check +30, then yes they believe the sky is purple. I mean is that really any more far fetched than being able to hear a bow being drawn through a foot thick wall?
If you're still not convinced consider the real world example of a man who convinced an entire country all their problems were caused not by a war they just lost and the harsh treaty imposed on them, but by a group of religious people.
STR is only better DEX if you never make it past level 3 or if you look at straight damage, and that's only if you're not looking at the unchained rogue. The extra damage isn't that much, and is far outweighed by the extra benefits DEX gives you.
As far as Zen Archer, you can easily have 14 DEX with the right race (Tengu, Assimar), which gives you at least a +2 (+3 if you take Point BlankShot). Not great, but take a look at all the other non-Full BAB claases out there, and see what they're doing at levels 1. At level 2 you get +1 BAB and Weapon Focus, that gives you +4/+5 with Point Blank, and that ain't bad. An 18 DEX fighter is only +6 with point blank shot assuming he took the same feats as the Monk.
Yes fighter may have more damage, but it's archery, does it really matter if the baddie is at -20 or -60 hitpoints? Dead is dead, and Zen Archer does enough damage to obliterate anything it comes across. What makes it so superior is everything else it can do that a fighter can't. A Zen Archer has more feats than a fighter until level 10 (countling class abilites as feats). They aren't as flexible as a fighters, but they are pretty standard for a ranged build, and the bonus feats ignore prerequs, which brings me to: A Zen Archer gets Point Blank Master (no provoking) at level 3, a fighter gets this level 5 at the earliest. At level 6 a Zen Archer gets Improved Precise Shot, a Fighter has to wait unitl level 11. This alone is HUGE. How much is the damage difference when a fighter has to roll a 50% miss chance and the Zen Archer doesn't? Add Qinggong Monk, and you're abilities get even better.
I dunno, I could never recommend a fighter archer over the Zen.
A Paladin/Oracle is a great choice. My first PFS character to level 12 was/is a Paladin of Irori (not the archetype, didn't exist then) with 1 level or Lore Oracle for the CHA to AC. I loved this character. I took extra revelation to use CHA for Knowledge Skills too.
If you still can't think of anything that really strikes your fancy, I don't want to give anything away, but talk with your GM about the CHA thing.
This is the rules for PFS. If it's a home game, ask your GM is really the only answer that matters: