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FullStarFullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 1,288 posts (1,343 including aliases). No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 10 Pathfinder Society characters. 2 aliases.


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You don't need to take Oracle to level 4. Just take one level of Lore Oracle get your DEX to AC and then take the Extra Revelation Feat for the CHA to Knowledge Skills. My first PFS character to level 12 is this exact build with a 20 point buy


Female angel-blooded aasimar (angelkin) oracle 1/paladin (oath of vengeance) 11 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Angels 21, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 42, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 7, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 60)
LG Medium outsider (native)
Init +7; Senses Perception +0
Aura courage (10 ft.), resolve (10 ft.)
AC 30, touch 17, flat-footed 23 (+9 armor, +7 Dex, +4 shield)
hp 111 (12 HD; 1d8+11d10+36)
Fort +17, Ref +18, Will +17; +2 vs. [evil], +2 circumstance vs. blinded or dazzled
Immune charm, disease, fear; Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
Speed 30 ft., fly 30 ft. (average)
Melee +3 longsword +19/+14/+9 (1d8+17/19-20) or
. . divine bond +21/+16/+11 (1d8+19/17-20)
Special Attacks smite evil 4/day (+7 attack and AC, +11 damage)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th; concentration +19)
. . At will—halo
. . 1/day—alter self, suggestion (DC 20)
Paladin Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th; concentration +18)
. . At will—detect evil
Oracle Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +8)
. . 1st (5/day)—comprehend languages, cure light wounds, fallback strategy
. . 0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, enhanced diplomacy, stabilize
. . Mystery Lore
Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) Spells Prepared (CL 8th; concentration +15)
. . 3rd—litany of sight[UC], communal resist energy[UC], greater stunning barrier[ACG] (DC 20)
. . 2nd—communal endure elements[UC], litany of defense[UC], communal protection from evil[UC]
. . 1st—divine favor, grace[APG], lesser restoration, word of resolve[UM]
Str 26, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 24
Base Atk +11; CMB +16; CMD 29
Feats Angel Wings[ARG], Angelic Blood[ARG], Deific Obedience, Extra Revelation[APG], Noble Scion Of War[ISWG], Power Attack
Traits bully, cosmopolitan (absalom)
Skills Diplomacy +21, Fly +6, Intimidate +16 (+18 circumstance vs. evil creatures), Knowledge (arcana) +16, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +16, Knowledge (history) +15, Knowledge (local) +16, Knowledge (nature) +16, Knowledge (nobility) +17, Knowledge (planes) +16, Knowledge (religion) +17, Linguistics +19, Sense Motive +2, Survival +0 (+2 to avoid becoming lost)
Languages Abyssal, Aklo, Ancient Osiriani, Aquan, Auran, Azlanti, Celestial, Common, Cyclops, Daemonic, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, Ignan, Infernal, Jistka, Polyglot, Sign Language, Sphinx, Sylvan, Terran, Thassilonian, Tien, Undercommon, Varisian
SQ channel wrath, divine bond (weapon +3, 2/day), halo, interaction bonus, lay on hands 12/day (5d6), mercies (fatigued, frightened, shaken), oracle's curse (legalistic), powerful justice, revelations (lore keeper, sidestep secret), suggestion 1/day, truespeaker, vow to self
Combat Gear potion of cure serious wounds, wand of cure light wounds, wayfinder, shining; Other Gear celestial armor, +2 heavy steel shield, +3 longsword, divine bond, pink rhomboid ioun stone, scarlet and blue sphere ioun stone, belt of giant strength +6, headband of alluring charisma +6, wayfinder[ISWG], 676 gp
Special Abilities
Angelic Blood +2 saves vs. evil effects, to stabilize while dying, and 1 damage to evil or undead if bleeding.
Aura of Courage +4 (10 ft.) (Su) Allies in aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs. fear.
Aura of Resolve +4 (10 ft.) (Su) Allies in aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs. charm.
Channel Wrath (Su) When an oathbound paladin reach 4th level, she can spend two uses of her lay on hands ability to gain an extra use of smite evil that day.

This ability has no effect for a paladin who does not have the smite evil ability. This ability replaces
Deific Obedience Purify yourself daily to prove devotion to a deity and gain benefits.
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Divine Bond (Weapon +3, 11 mins, 2/day) (Sp) Weapon shines with light and gains enhancement bonuses or chosen properties.
Energy Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Fly (30 feet, Average) You can fly!
Halo +2 to intimidate vs. evil creatures and to saves against becoming blinded or dazzled.
Immunity to Charm You are immune to charm effects.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Interaction Bonus +3 bonus to one-on-one Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks.
Lay on Hands (5d6 hit points, 12/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Legalistic The shackles of Hell impose savage consequences should you violate a covenant, but also imbue you with remarkable guile. Whenever you break your word (either purposefully or unintentionally), you become sickened for 24 hours or until you meet your ob
Lore Keeper (Ex) Knowledge Skills become CHA-based.
Mercy (Fatigued) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the fatigued condition.
Mercy (Frightened) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the frightened condition.
Mercy (Shaken) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the shaken condition.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Powerful Justice (Su) At 11th level, an oathbound paladin may spends one use of her smite evil ability to grant her allies within 10 feet the ability to smite evil, except they only gain the paladin's bonus to damage, not her smite's attack bonus or ability to bypass DR.
Smite Evil (4/day) (Su) +7 to hit, +11 to damage, +7 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Suggestion 1/day (Sp) 1/day use suggestion as a spell like ability.
Truespeaker Learn two languages for each rank you put in Linguistics.
Vow to Self (1/day) +4 morale bonus to one role to keep a promise.

In hindsight the two feats for the wings was a complete waste, and would go a different way if I had to do it over, but it really is an effective character for PFS.

2 people marked this as a favorite.

One of the flying companions small bird (eagle/hawk) is very useful as a ranged Hunter. The teamwork feats Coordinated Shot, and Enfilading Fire will give you +4 when your bird flanks, which is easy for a flying companion to do and still leave the ground spaces open for the rest of the party.

Give your bird Mobility and Reach Defense, use the Alternate Advancement for a higher DEX and the Tiger Focus (Tiger and Snake at 8th level), and it's AC will probably outclass yours, especially for AoO. You'll also want to give it the Low Profile feat depending on how much a stickler your GM is.

If you do raise your bird's Intelligence to 3, give it Combat Advice for another +2 to hit, then can use Aid Another to give an ally a bonus to hit or AC.

Let's say your bird is flanking, and giving you Combat Advice, you're now +6 to hit (on top of any buffs you've given yourself) you don't you can use your focus for STR and do more damage.

I didn't see Small Cat in your list either. Again, max out it's DEX use Alternate Advancement, take Agile Maneuvers and you have a tripping monster... Not in a drug induced sort of way.

Tarantula wrote:
Charges have to be in a straight line. Jumping is not a straight line. Therefore, you can't jump to clear difficult terrain and still go in a straight line.

It doesn't say anything about a straight line, it just says you have to move directly towards the target, jumping would still be moving directly towards your target. I did find the line that shows the difference between feather step and jumping:

PFSRD wrote:
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

So you have to draw the line before you move, if you have feather step on, the difficult terrain squares won't slow movement, but the obstacles will still exist.

I mean it's really no question, Vigilante is by far the best for this type of scenario, pretty sure it was designed for exactly this. It almost feels like cheating because while it's supposed to be the same class, it only has a few things in common but it will feel like entirely different classes depending on what options you take.

That said, take a look at all the Rogue archetypes. There one that gets arcane spells, one that is a wand master which could be the healer. A lot of options in there.

Cuup wrote:
No. If this is how the Gm wishes to run an encounter, as far as the standard rules are concerned, he can certainly allow a character to move up to the obstacle and Acrobatics to jump, then finish his movement, and maybe even attack the target if he's reached it, but it WOULDN'T be a charge. The same would happen with the invisible barrier example.

What keeps it from being a charge? It was a straight line and nothing impeded his movement. All the bases are covered.

Squiggit wrote:
The difference between your example and this one though is that you jump after the charge starts.

Okay so what if there's an invisible barrier, or a hidden trap? As the GM when your player tries to charge, do you tell them, "You can't you're not sure why" or do you let them attempt the maneuver and stop them at the barrier?

In any of these cases I don't think there's anything intrinsic in the wording of charge that makes you check all conditions before attempting the maneuver. Just like using Acrobatics to move through someone's square, there's no guarantee that it's going to work, but you can always attempt it. I think charge works the same way.

As far as pounce, I believe all your attacks have to go against the target of your charge. I think it's implicit in the ability even if it isn't explicit.

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I only read most of the first page, but if it helps anyone understand it better, you're not taking a 5' step then moving, you're taking a 5' step and casting a spell (or using a Sp or Ex), the effect of the spell is that it puts you somewhere else.

Squiggit wrote:

I think what Cuup and Derklord are saying is that you can't jump over the obstacle because you never get to initiate the charge.

If you could charge and jump over the obstacle you're absolutely write, but as things are written you can't because the target isn't a valid target for the charge in the first place. You never get to start the charge which means you never get the chance to jump.

By that logic, if there is rough terrain and I have activated my Feather Step Slippers I can't charge even though I ignore rough terrain. The simple fact that it exists prevents the charge.

I don't agree with that. I think it's saying that if something would hinders your movement you can't charge, and they've given two examples that may hinder your movement, a barrier that I can jump over doesn't hinder my movement.

My first thought was a Paladin with a bow. Religious, ranged, CHA based so some Out of Combat skills, but will have issues with evil party members.

My second thought is Zen Archer Monk. Ranged and a bunch of eclectic abilities to help with Out of Combat situations. Add Qinggong and you have even more options.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Really? Okay, then. If they aren't banned from doing evil s%+&, they can do whatever they like. Of course, none of this is Pathfinder.

The problem is that you want your definition of "evil #%^*" to apply to every paladin in every situation. You (and you being most of the people on these boards) also only want to apply these rules to Paladins when clerics, druids, rangers warpriests and any other divine caster with the possible exception of oracles, all have codes they have to live by too.

If a lawful good paladin comes across a goblin starving to death in a cage does that paladin have to help that goblin? Most people would say yes or he falls (there was a huge thread on it some months back), but read the code again. He's required to help unless that help will be used for chaotic or evil purposes. A goblin will do evil or chaotic things, so a paladin who leaves that goblin in the cage to die a horrible death by starvation is following his code.

But people don't like to hear that. They've been piling all these extra rules on top of the paladin for so long that they've convinced themselves those are the rules.

Gloves of Elvenkind are handy too, as are wands which don't provoke. My magus carries around a 5th level shocking grasp wand (with the arcanna of course)

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I always thought of Gandalf as a Druid wielding a straight scimitar.

Seriously though, Elves are proficient in longswords and PFS has an Intelligent sword, so that may be one reason.

hjs102 wrote:
It says "willingly commits an evil act, OR violates the code of conduct" so I assume if there is a stipulation about not attacking the helpless (which is in the case of my player's code) he will fall. However the atonement will count it as unintentional.

Actually it doesn't say that at all. The exact quote is:

"A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act."

Lose abilities if you willingly commit an evil act. The second paragraph goes on to say:

"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."

That means if you willingly commit an evil act you lose paladin abilities and you have to follow a code. There is no consequence listed for not following the code, so it's as much an RP thing as a cleric having to follow the tenets of their faith (that no one seems to care about. A cleric of Abadar loots an entire castle no one bats an eye, a Paladin gets mind controlled to step on a bug HE MUST FALL!. Making a paladin fall for an action they had no control over falls under GM asshattery

I only read the first post so this may have been covered but no the Paladin will not fall. He as to willingly commit the act.

Klorox wrote:
nonlethal bleeding damage makes no sense

But bleeding Wisdom damage you're okay with?

Sneak attack defaults to the type of damage that caused it. Bleeding Attack is based on sneak attack.

Klorox wrote:
because he's not trying to kill the fighter in the first place, so he's not trying to make her bleed to death. Also because, unless he's got Improved Unarmed Strike, he's not efficient enough with his fisticuffs to use his rogue talents with them, I'm not even sure he can use sneak atttack with his fists if he doesn't have IUS... that feat is like weapon proficiency with unarmed attacks.

A Rogue doesn't have to be proficient with the weapon to deal sneak attack. The ability actually says "With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage."

The Bleeding Attack rogue talent applies the Bleed condition. This condition allows for different types of damage. So the fighter would take non-lethal bleed damage also.

With a 30 AC don't think of your Repose as a defensive ability, think of it as another attack.

You're probably going to be all right with your saves. I leveled my Inspired Blade Swashbuckler to level 10 in PFS and with Charmed Life, rarely had any issues. I didn't bother using it with Reflex, I only used it on really important Fort saves, and always used it on Will saves. This method I never ran out of uses and rarely had issues.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Wouldn't they stack? The main reason to use Lunge is to get up to 15ft so that you can attack and still get the AOO when they move to melee range with you since you still have a 10ft range on their turn.

That's a good point, I guess I just assumed they didn't stack. Seems like they might, if so, then yeah do that.

And as far as Inspired Blade and not getting the knock out blow, I thought the same thing at first, and at lower levels it is kind of rough, but since you're using a rapier and get improved crit automatically, on top of a bunch of AoO, you usually end up full at the end of the fight anyway.

I would never take Lunge, but not sure what you'd put in it's place, the Swordmaster's Flair blue scarf is just WAY too useful not to have.

I also wouldn't worry about damage boosters. DEX to damage, precise strike, and getting AoO usually do well enough for you.

Ferious Thune wrote:

Here's the rule from the Additional Resources for the ARG.

Additional Resources wrote:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).

Bolding mine.

So it's not a legal spell for anyone except gnomes, which should mean no one but gnomes can buy consumables of it. I suppose you could read the line about magic items and argue that side of it, but I think it's been clarified elsewhere that if a spell isn't legal for you, you can't buy a scroll/wand/potion of it. Otherwise there'd be lots of rogues running around UMDing wands of blend.

I would want to see the further clarification. That second line sounds like it might allow the wand or scroll.

Let me start with I agree with what most people have already said. He either learns that everyone gets a chance to shine or he gets booted.

That said I wanted to respond to this:

GM Rednal wrote:
(And no, Rogues are not particularly strong. As your levels keep getting higher, this is going to start showing.)

I think you'd be surprised, things have changed a bit since Unchained came out. I don't two weapon fight because I'd destroy encounters with my 11th level rogue in PFS. All you need is Canny Tumble, Circling Mongoose, and a menacing weapon. Your first attack the monster is denied DEX and you get a +2, if you hit (and why wouldn't you?) every attack after that is flanking (which is +4 with menacing) and you knock their AC down 6 points with Debilitating Injury, that means your iterative attacks have a higher to hit bonus than your first attack...which means you rarely miss. 4 attacks x 6d6 sneak attack = 24d6 = an average of 84 damage just in sneak attack dice. Add in Dex to damage and a high crit weapon like Kukri, and yeah Rogue's can be pretty tough.

On top of that you have a ton of skill points, the opportunity for some really handy utility abilities.

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Jiggy wrote:
You have a very inaccurate understanding of what the people around you think. I recommend asking some of those people for their thoughts, digesting their responses, and rephrasing it back to them; then repeating that process until they say "Yeah, that's what I'm saying". Do that with a few different people and see if your perspective changes.

I wish I did, but I really don't. I say it in more negative terms, but it is completely accurate. I can take you though the numerous threads I've used to draw those conclusions. Take a look at all of the "the paladin falls" threads. People want a concrete set of rules to follow that applies to every single circumstance. They want rules to cover what should be the GM's area. People hate the magic crafting system, why? Because it requires a lot of GM oversite. Still not convinced? Look at how many times I've said "The GM can say no to things that are legal in the rules" and see the push back I get for those statements. As soon as I saw Shadow's post I KNEW he was going to get push back, sure enough, and with 5 people hitting Favorite too. Deny it all you want, and maybe you specifically don't feel that way, but the general feel on the boards is that anything that requires a lot of GM input is frowned upon.

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Shadowlords wrote:

Since when did the game need to be balanced....[...]

if [...] one person is taking the spot light it is your job as the DM to "balance" the game.

Under what other circumstances is this kind of nonsense acceptable?

If I go to the dentist and he drills the wrong tooth, it's not my job to fill the cavities he missed.

If I go to the mechanic and he forgets to re-attach the cylinder head, it's not my job to put it back on.

If I go to a restaurant and get served raw chicken, it's not my job to go back into the kitchen and cook it all the way through.

If I get onto an airplane and the pilot doesn't know how to find San Bernadino, it's not my job to navigate.

If I hire a carpenter and he forgets the fourth leg of my table, it's not my job to work the lathe.

As soon as I saw Shadowlords' post I started laughing, not because I think what he's said is funny, he's 100% correct as far as I'm concerned, but the second you suggest the GM should have some control over his game, this forum goes into an uproar.

The problem with all your examples is that you're putting in emphasis on the wrong person. The person in the dentist chair (you) is the Player Character, the Dentist is an NPC. In none of you examples is there a GM to speak of, since they don't really exist unless you believe in a higher power maybe.

I'm about to say something that most people on this board hate: As GM you have to right to say no. Even if a player brings a a perfectly rules legal character to the table, you can tell that player "That's not going to work for my game". You have that control as the GM. The players either accept that you're doing it so everyone enjoys the game more, or they don't, in which case, find better players that will trust you as a GM.

My advice is to play an Elf or Half-Elf and take the Spellbinder Archetype. It allows you to spontaneously cast 1 spell per level. So for example if you pick Magic Missile as your 1st level Spell Bond, you can convert any 1st level spells or higher to Magic Missile. This allows you to have your Controlling/Utility spells, but still have a blasting spell as a back up.

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Yet if your good at preparing spells and planning then everything your saying that is a drawback becomes an asset.

Utility is KING and wizard has it in spades. Being able to design a spell list to defeat every challenge is amazing power.

You're right, utility is king, and in almost every instance the sorcerer has more of it. IF you think about, if you know exactly what's coming, the sorcerer can just go out and buy scrolls. In that case he's still better than the wizard, because not only will he have the spells he needs for this particular battle, but he still has his regular abilities too.

If you want to talk about the cost of that, both the Wizard and the Sorcerer need the exact same items, a Wizard then has to spend more buying scrolls and copying them into a spellbook that the sorcerer doesn't have to do. So if we assume they both spend the same amount on gear, and they both earn the same amount, what does the sorcerer do with the money he saves on not having a spell book? He buys the scrolls he needs for those particular battles.

Really no matter how you look at it, you're better off with a sorcerer. The only real drawback is having to wait a level for next higher spell level.

I only really skimmed this thread, but the easier you make it for the Gunslinger now, the more you're going to regret it later. At 5th level he'll start getting DEX to damage. As the characters level and fight larger CR monsters, the monsters' AC will continue to rise, their touch AC will continue to drop. With no house rules at all, a Pistoleer can reload as a free action (Rapid Reload Alchemical cartridges) at first level. The only saving grace is the 20' Range inc, but even at 60' he'll be better than most archers since he doesn't need STR like they do.

At 5th level you're going to see things drastically shift. Touch AC's are going to start dropping, he's going to get DEX to damage, will probably have Deadly Aim. Assuming he finds someway to reload, he'll be doing 2d8+18 (each gun 1d8+4 DEX, +4 deadly aim, +1 point blank) will do every round and rarely if ever miss. At 6th level (keeping the stats the same) he'll be doing 3d8+27 (iterative attack from BAB) per round and rarely miss. At 7th it will be 4d8+36 (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting). Also remember this is ranged, so he'll get full attacks more often than not. Again short range pistols may help on this a bit, but overall expect he'll get full attacks.

Arcane Addict wrote:
I cannot believe I forgot this one! Metamagic! Wizards don't take as long as sorcerers do when casting metamagic'ed up spells!

You should have left this one forgotten. If you're trying to prove Sorcerers aren't as good as Wizards, this is the worst possible argument you could make. Being able to apply any metamagic feat you know to any spell you cast at any time you want is ridiculous. To say that giving up your move action isn't worth this ability, when you are a class that can hit something 150 feet or more away is beyond ludicrous.

To answer the original post, there is very little reason to play a Wizard over Sorcerer. Most people play Sorcerers and have a "grass is always greener" attitude. The reality is that Sorcerers are far more versatile despite claims to the contrary. Most people who defend sorcerers usually play sorcerers instead of wizards (as if that isn't telling enough). There is really only a few reasons they'll throw up repeatedly, but if you look at them, they really don't bridge the gap at all.

The first one you'll hear repeatedly is: INT is a better stat. Let's analyze that statement. Sure INT is skill points, and Knowledge skills, but the most important/most used skills in the game are Perception, WIS based and interaction skills (Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate), add in Favored Class bonus, and how much of a loss is this? But okay, let's pretend that we all agree that INT is the absolute most important stat in the game. Well, then all you have to do is play a Sorcerer that use INT as its casting stat. Rather have perception? Well, play a Sorcerer that uses WIS as its casting stat. There are bloodlines that allow for both.

The second one you'll hear is that it takes a move action to apply metamagic. If you honestly believe this is some sort of limitation, slap yourself, and read my first paragraph again.

The third one is really the only actual limitation. You get supreme versatility, but get higher level spells, 1 level later. Then again when you can spontaneously add Heighten Spell to all your spells, does it really matter?

You're right when you say if you know what's coming a Sorcerer can just buy scrolls. Sure Sorc-Supporters will say that you can't buy your way out all the time, while in the same breath say that a Wizard can add any spell to their spell book (which costs money). So I guess what they're saying is that Sorcerers can't buy their way out, but Wizards can,because if sorcerers could that would invalidate their argument and that just wouldn't be fair.

Sure you can leave open slots, but by the time your high enough level to afford to leave open slots, you (and the sorcerers) would have enough scrolls for those seldom used spells that can come in handy every now and then.

That said, there are a few tricks I use to make a Wizard more versatile. The first one is make an elf/half-elf and use the Spellbinder Archetype. This let's you pick one spell of each level to spontaneously cast. I use the Spellbinder spells to for blasting/attack spells and memorize all the utility/buff spells. There are some feats that will make you more sorcerer like, there's one that allows you to change a higher level spell slot into two lower level ones (yeah a feat to allow you to do what sorcerers say is a limitation).

I skipped a lot, but what about straight Kensai Magus?

PossibleCabbage wrote:
TyroAmberhelm wrote:
Honestly, the only thing that is keeping me from doing it is having all of my other players suddenly wanting to rebuild their characters.

If everybody got to rebuild their characters at level 6, would that really be so bad? I mean, what value is there in making people stick with a feat or an archetype that they regret taking? Like if you told the party "so-and-so is switching from rogue to unchained rogue, so if any of you guys want to retrain your feats or optional class features, go ahead (just run your plan past me first)" that wouldn't ruin the game or anything.

I mean, if you're playing a game where someone voluntarily decided to play a chained rogue, we're probably not talking about a pack of really hardcore pathfinder optimizers to begin with (don't get me wrong, I like the idea of rogues, but other classes do "rogue" better than the core rogue), so someone else probably wishes they had chosen something else at some level too.

Characters that started out as first level and leveled to 6 are vastly different from character that are generated at 6th level. Not saying one or the other is better, just different. As a GM I prefer the former and rarely allow a complete overhaul. As to the original question, I would have tried to talk the player out of playing a core rogue to begin with, and would be very excited that they wanted to switch.

I went with two weapon fighting and used Canny Tumble and Circiling Mongoose to full attack almost every round. If you go this method avoid Scout archetype and go Swashbuckler archetype for the extra combat trick and bonus to Acrobatics.

With two weapon fighting your first attack lowers their AC for your other attacks, and your last attack lowers their to hit for the party.

When people talk about the multiple will saves, don't dramatize it. It's two. Two will saves and you're destroying the party. It's not hard to get two crappy saves in a row. Heck playing a high level module in PFS, first room we walk into the Wizard gets hit with an Invisible Stalker. Rolls a 1 against the illusion, rolls a 2 on his Fortitude save, uses his re-roll and rolls a 1, he had the best will save in the party.

My advice is to load a clear crystal ioun stone into a wayfinder and never get dominated again. Cheap and effective.

As far as DPS: People ask questions like this all the time, and others try to give advice, but the reality is, the ones giving advice really have no idea what they're talking about. Not because they don't know the game, but because they don't know your game. There's a thread right now asking if a 40 STR is too much. I haven't opened the thread, but I would imagine people are telling the poster that 40 is way too high, when really we have no idea if 40 is too high or not. What if the Rogue has a 40 DEX, the Wizard has a 40 INT, and the Cleric has a 40 WIS? Now is a 40 STR too much?

The other mistake people make is assuming balance is between players and the GM. That will never be balanced because the GM can do whatever they want "Goblins in my world have 600 hp and carry around +20 Artifact Swords that are versus Touch AC". Balance is between players. If you all have 40's in your stats, everything is gravy, if one has a 40, one has a 28 and another has a 14, you're going to run into problems.

Falxu - No you still need Handle Animal, there's a FAQ. My personal take and what I believe the devs are getting at is that even if you raise the INT, it gets the mechanical benefits, but it's still an animal. You can't get the benefit of Awaken animal spell just by add 1 point of INT.

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The only one that doesn't jive with me is: Do not prey on the weakness of others, and forbid this conduct from others.

Typically Irori isn't about telling others what to do. Each must find their own path to enlightenment and all that. I would make it more about setting the example than forbidding others.

I don't know if revolver ammo costs more, but paper alchemical charges cost 1.2gp to make. If he spent that 8000 gold on ammo instead of making the magic item, he'd have about 6,666 rounds. Let's say he gets off 2 shots per round at level 5, we'll say each combat is 10 rounds (which we all know it isn't)x 4 combats per day, that's 80 rounds per day, he could go 83 adventuring days before he ran out. If he's somehow using 2 pistols, he'll still get 41 adventuring days. Just as a comparison, in PFS this would take him to level 13.

As he levels increase he'll be shooting more rounds per round, but his wealth will also increase.

What I'm getting at is that the myth that the cost of ammo is somehow a balancing factor for a gunslinger is just that, a myth. It doesn't really matter if you let him have it or not the cost is actually negligible.

Right now the player is worried about ramping up his to-hit modifier and his damage modifier and thinks he needs all these magic items to do it, so is worried about the ammo cost. Eventually he'll figure out that since it's all touch attacks, he could have a Wizard BAB and still never miss, and since he's ranged, he'll always full attack, so even with relatively low bonuses to damage, the full attacking and never missing more than makes up for it.

Entryhazard wrote:

Eh, it clearly means that the receiving allies must consider it a bonus feat as it skips prerequites, but this is just basic English

No it "clearly" does not mean that. The fact that can "clearly" see the same sentence in two completely different ways means nothing is really clear at all.

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Zaetar wrote:

I just see it sitting there and gathering dust... and well, why not?

Someone went through all the trouble to think it, write it, refine it, then publish it. It would be a waste and an insult to the creators not to use their creations.

I cannot fathom a reason not to use them. If i'm not wrong the idea of playing d20 games is to grab a game setting, use its rules and books as guides and reference and then homebrew whatever else you want... not to be bound by the books. This groups even go and create stuff out of nowhere for us and people refuse to use it? It's dumb.

The only reason I can imagine for not using them is because the DM is way too lazy to make an effort and think about what he has to do to counter this new stuff. There has always been stuff created by 3rd parties that were later added as official content, why is this different? Why do DMs get scared of content from a different source?

The problem I have the 3PP is that not everyone has access to all the books the other players have. You mistakenly think balance is between the players and the GM, it's not. The GM can do whatever he wants so that will never be balanced. Balance is between players. All players should be relatively the same power level or it creates problems.

That said, I do universally allow Psionics from Dreamscared Press. The fact that it's available on d20pfsrd helps, but even it wasn't, I would still allow it. Love that stuff.

Hubaris wrote:
Battlefield Presence wrote:

granting each ally within 30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat as a standard action

Its a teamwork feat you possess. Compare to:

Tactician wrote:

He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a standard action, the cavalier can grant this feat to all allies within 30 feet who can see and hear him.

Emphasis mine.

Re-emphasis mine

Josh-o-Lantern wrote:

None? None at all? level 6 makes you immune to Reverse psychology?

Thought you were referring to detect evil aura. Sure, if the player is playing a dumb paladin that just blindly opposes everything that might work. It still doesn't change the fact that a paladin shouldn't be traveling with an evil character, let alone an evil character trying to manipulate him.

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Josh-o-Lantern wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Reverse psychology. If he opposes everything you suggest, just suggest the opposite of what you want.

Also, if you aren't a divine caster with an aura, you don't detect as evil for another couple levels.

This. Every bit this.

Except they're 6th level, so none of that actually.

I agree with Heretek. You can't trick him by pretending to gradually repent. Sarenrae gives you one shot, you don't take it, you get smited. there is no:
"Well...hmm let me sleep on it a bit"
That won't fly. I think some of you focus too much on the "give them a chance" and are skipping the "one chance before you gut them"

As far as the "Stop me robbing or save the children", okay I'll save the children, but since we're traveling together, I'll know where you'll be later, and you'll either willingly give everything back, or you'll make a posthumous donation.

The real issue though is the one that's spelled out in the core rulebook. Paladin's can't work with evil characters. Yes, yes stopping an evil god, but you can't be like "Okay we need to stop this evil god in 40 years, so we'll just travel together until then" Or even, there has to be a reason why it has to be that character. Couldn't the paladin find a lawful good sorcerer to stop the evil god with?

Double-Chain Kama

I think it should apply to bonus feats at level 1, but shouldn't apply to a specific ability you don't have. For example if it said "bonus Rogue Talent" yes level 1, if it said "Bonus to <Specific Rogue Talent>" you have to wait until you actually have that specific talent. I don't really have any further proof and rules judgment, it's just how I think it should work.

I would treat Oracles like sorcerers. Yes their magic is divine, but they usually didn't ask for it, and some may not even want it (at least in some source material), so I wouldn't say they actually pray.

I didn't read anyone else's post, but in my opinion, this sounds like NG taken the the extreme. They will do anything for the greater good. That said, I firmly believe Dr. Doom is Lawful Evil. He wants to rule the world because he really believes he will do a better job and everyone will be better off, but he's willing to kill, torture or anything else to accomplish his goals. So depending on what your character is willing to do... I mean they could start off NG, then as the make more and more compromises for the "Greater Good" gradually slip down the spectrum.

The real problem is your stats. You need to find some way to get DEX to Damage (CHA to damage would be ideal, but I don't think that exists). My advice would be to be a Paladin of Sarenrae and get the Dervish Dance feat.

Since improved init was your first level feat, you could retrain it to Noble Scion: Scion of War. That would give you your CHA to Init.

I have an Aasimar paladin, and I was really excited about the wings, but what I've found out, is that two feats just isn't worth it. The number of times I've found it really helpful I could have just used a Fly potion and been better off, because the potion is double the movement of your wings. Add to that a Paladin only gets 2 skill points so your Fly skill is likely to be pretty low.

Something else you may want to consider is a level of Oracle to get CHA to AC.

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Another feat you'll want to look at is Shapeshifting Hunter Ranger will stack with Druid for number of shifts per day. Druid stacks with Ranger for Favored Enemy.

Here's my build, which is sort of the opposite of yours, I really just took a level of Ranger to get Favored Enemy, and some rogue-like skills.

Female half-elf druid (world walker) 7/ranger (trapper) 1 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 43, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 65)
N Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Perception +27
AC 25, touch 14, flat-footed 23 (+8 armor, +2 deflection, +2 Dex, +3 shield)
hp 58 (8 HD; 7d8+1d10+14)
Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +12; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +1 scimitar +10/+5 (1d6+4/18-20) or
. . mwk cold iron shortspear +10/+5 (1d6+3) or
. . silversheen dagger +10/+5 (1d4+3/19-20)
Ranged ranged touch attack +8 (As Spell) or
. . sling +8 (1d4+3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (humans +4, undead +2), wild shape 3/day
Druid (World Walker) Spells Prepared (CL 7th; concentration +12)
. . 4th—freedom of movement, life bubble[APG] (DC 19), river of wind[D,APG] (DC 19)
. . 3rd—call lightning (DC 18), fly[D], greater longstrider[ACG], water breathing
. . 2nd—barkskin, eagle's splendor[D], frigid touch[UM], resist energy, wood shape (DC 17)
. . 1st—aspect of the falcon[D,APG], frostbite[UM], hydraulic push[APG], liberating command[UC], liberating command[UC], snowball (DC 16), snowball (DC 16)
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, guidance, light, stabilize
. . D Domain spell; Domain Eagle domain
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +9; CMD 23
Feats Alertness, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Natural Spell, Shapeshifting Hunter[UC], Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Tribal Scars
Traits ease of faith, narrows survivor
Skills Acrobatics -1 (-5 to jump), Diplomacy +15, Disable Device +13, Fly +3, Handle Animal +6, Heal +10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (nature) +14, Perception +27, Sense Motive +19, Stealth +3, Survival +14 (+19 when tracking); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Druidic, Elven, Sylvan
SQ aerial evasion, elf blood, favored terrains (underground +4, urban +2), hawkeye, nature bond (Eagle domain[UM]), nature sense, track +1, trapfinding +1, wild empathy +8, woodland stride
Combat Gear wand of cure light wounds, blood-boiling pill (10), sharpstone sling bullets (20); Other Gear +2 dragonhide breastplate, +2 darkwood light wooden quickdraw shield[APG], +1 scimitar, mwk cold iron shortspear, ranged touch attack, silversheen dagger, sling, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +2, goggles of minute seeing, headband of inspired wisdom +2, lenses of detection, ring of protection +2, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, belt pouch, blanket[APG], fishhook (2), flint and steel, grappling hook, holly and mistletoe, masterwork thieves' tools, sewing needle, signal whistle, soap, spell component pouch, spider's silk rope (50 ft.)[APG], spiritbane spike, string or twine[APG], thread (50 ft.), torch (5), trail rations (5), waterskin, whetstone, 4,975 gp, 9 sp, 2 cp
Special Abilities
Aerial Evasion (Ex) While flying you take less damage on a successful Reflex save.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Druid (World Walker) Domain (Eagle) Granted Powers: Your spirit soars with the mightiest and noblest of all winged creatures.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Familiar Bonus: +3 to sight-based Perception checks in bright light You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Favored Enemy (Humans +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs. Favored Enemy (Humans) foes.
Favored Enemy (Undead +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs. Favored Enemy (Undead) foes.
Favored Terrain (Underground +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls when in Favored Terrain (Underground).
Favored Terrain (Urban +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls when in Favored Terrain (Urban).
Hawkeye +3 (8/day) (Su) Swift, gain bonus on one perception check or ranged attack.
Lenses of detection +5 to track with Survival
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Narrows Survivor You gain a +1 trait bonus to Initiative and Sense Motive checks. Sense Motive is always a class skill for you.
Natural Spell You can cast spells while in Wild Shape.
Shapeshifting Hunter Add your druid and ranger levels for favored enemy
Speak with Animals (Ex) Your familiar can communicate with animals similar to itself.
Speak with Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Track +1 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Wild Empathy +8 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Wild Shape (8 hours, 3/day) (Su) Shapeshift into a different creature one or more times per day.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.

I really went back and forth between Green Faith Initiate and World Walker. Green Faith Initiate would have made it a much better "Face" with it's bonuses to Diplomacy, but in the end having a Druid with Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain was just too enticing.

I took the Eagle Domain for the bonus to hit with Ranged Touch Attacks and Perception for Trap Finding. Also a Familiar gives me Ranged Cure spells.

Forgot to add cites: Link

John Compton wrote:

Favored Class Bonus for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs:

For the purpose of qualifying for favored class bonuses, half-elves are also treated as both elves and humans, and half-orcs are also treated as humans (but not orcs)—a byproduct of their respective elf blood and orc blood racial traits. Only characters that have the elf blood or orc blood racial trait count as a member of another race for this purpose.

Bolding mine.

Pathfinder Society does allow Half-Elves to count as Elves or Humans, the only restriction is that Half-Orcs can't get Orc feats/traits.

EDIT: And yes re-training is still allowed.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I would recommend the OP start turning into a Deinonychus. I would recommend one or more levels in Warpriest and taking the Blessing of Destruction. Every Natural Attack the OP takes Weapon Focus in will have a Base damage of 1d6, and the Destruction Blessing gives a +1 per 2 WP level on every one of those attacks.

If the OP takes Shaping Focus, his nondruid levels count as Druid levels until level 8, which will allow for Huge Animals, including the Megaraptor and the Allosaurus. I'm not sure which I like better.

If the OP is Human, then he can take Martial Versatility Weapon Focus and apply WF, and therefore Sacred Weapon Damage, to all natural attacks regardless of what form he takes. He can also take 2 levels in Ranger, Improved Natural Weapon, and Martial Versatility Improved Natural Weapon.

And he can always just cast Strong Jaw on himself, perhaps via a Wand.

Wow, that's impressive.Some REALLY good ideas here.

A hunter- standard melee build with Pack Flanking, Paired Opportunists, and Outflank. A small cat with maxed DEX for tripping, and a Barbarian with Paired Opportunists, and Outflank. Make sure they all have high crit weapons, and unleash.

EDIT: Or a negative channeling cleric that dazes, and a Damphir something.

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