Bard Masterpieces and Bardic Performance


Rules Questions

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
swoosh wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So do you want a rushed FAQ
Do you really want to pull the 'don't rush it' card when the OP is more than two years old?
Do you think the team has been working on the masterpiece faq for two years?

No we think they've been ignoring it for two years, which I think is the problem.

Silver Crusade

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Jodokai wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
swoosh wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So do you want a rushed FAQ
Do you really want to pull the 'don't rush it' card when the OP is more than two years old?
Do you think the team has been working on the masterpiece faq for two years?
No we think they've been ignoring it for two years, which I think is the problem.

Seeing as one of the Designers has commented in this thread that’s just not true.

Grand Lodge

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Mark Seifter wrote:
Much like with damage die increase where community members helped provide a basic chassis and we refined out the kinks on our end, if you guys want to do some legwork, I'll at least make sure to point you in the right direction and provide some expectation management, so here goes!

Mark, this is awesome. I like having the parameters laid out so that we can act like bards and ‘band’ together.

Mark Seifter wrote:
1b) This even includes non-RPG line content, even though FAQs are only for the RPG line. We're not going to create a vacuum that the other lines have to deal with; we need a baseline ready to go for them too.

The inclusion of non-RPG content seems a bit overwhelming though. Can you please clarify what do you mean by non-RPG content? Are we talking third party products like the luck bard that appeared in the player guide for Razor Coast? Or are we talking about bards in ACG and the novels and comics? Because I have no idea how I’d even start in things that weren’t directly connected to the Pathfinder ruleset in some way.

So... Before I put on my Alice dress and launch myself down the Rabbit Hole, can you refine what you are talking about here?

Hmm

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think the 'RPG line content' is the Pathfinder RPG hardcovers, and the other content is things like the player guides, setting books, and things in the adventure path volumes.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think he meant Paizo books that are not the Core Rulebook line, so stuff from the Campaign Setting, Player Companion, Adventure Paths, Modules, and possibly Tales and Comics lines.

Edit: Ninjaed

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
1) Covers all performances, including masterpieces, archetype performances, PrC performances, etc cross-referenced with all rules elements (feats, magic items, spells, etc) that are contingent on performances. A sweeping rule won't cut it, it needs to go one-by-one.

Can anyone come up with an example which isn't covered by;

'You can only perform one bardic performance/masterpiece at a time (i.e. you can't sing two songs simultaneously, or even for these purposes perform a bardic song and a bardic dance together), but if the effects of a performance/masterpiece continue after you stop performing then you can start another performance/masterpiece without cancelling the ongoing effect(s) unless otherwise stated (e.g. the extra rounds of Lingering Performance)'

'cuz, that is what I've been using for years and it seems to work just fine. Several others throughout this thread have said that they use a similar systems (e.g. only 'round by round spending counts as active', 'can only spend performance rounds on one performance/masterpiece per round', etc). Thus, it seems likely to me that most, if not all, scenarios can be addressed by 'a sweeping rule'.

Dark Archive

seems likely isn't really good enough in this case. In a home game I would totally rule that way and the final answer is probably close to that in some regard. However if close were good enough it wouldn't be much of an issue and the proper response would be no action at all. If they are going to take action comprehensive is the only way to do it and improve the game play experience and increase the longevity of the game. We saw something similar with familiars, so much fun but an awful lot of work to handle a multitude of edge cases.

Grand Lodge

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Redelia wrote:
I think the 'RPG line content' is the Pathfinder RPG hardcovers, and the other content is things like the player guides, setting books, and things in the adventure path volumes.
Rysky wrote:

I think he meant Paizo books that are not the Core Rulebook line, so stuff from the Campaign Setting, Player Companion, Adventure Paths, Modules, and possibly Tales and Comics lines.

Edit: Ninjaed

Ah, thanks.

Except for the bits about the Tales and Comics lines, that was what I was intending all along... Having a romp in all Paizo Pathfinder content for Bard stuff. I mean, as a VC, all the Paizo products got dumped into my downloads recently. This means that I can afford to look up the stuff that hasn’t made its way into Archives of Nethys (my main Pathfinder ruleset research tool when deciding what to buy.)

Are there actual playable Pathfinder rules being produced in the Tales and Comics lines?

Back to the Project

So. I know myself. This is something that I would be happy to be a contributor to, but I’m pretty sure that I could not take lead on it and be sane. There’s still way too much on my to-do list in my region.

Still, let’s look at all that is involved. I think that the first thing would be the full listing and breakdown of all the Masterpieces. Then would come all the bard / skald archetypes and prestige classes with their various types of performances. As far as I know, the only way to get a bardic masterpiece is to have sufficient levels of bard or skald to qualify... Though that will be definitely something we have to look at.

It’s going to be a BIG project, no doubt. But honestly, I don’t like to whine and I don’t like to wait. I’d rather be a part of the change that I want to see in the world. Maybe we can do this in baby steps?

Hmm

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Regarding Tales and Comics, while I'm not sure about Tales (outside of PFS Boons or whatever they're called for certain magic items) the comics do include character options, the Worldscape being the most prominent so far.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Hmm wrote:
Redelia wrote:
I think the 'RPG line content' is the Pathfinder RPG hardcovers, and the other content is things like the player guides, setting books, and things in the adventure path volumes.
Rysky wrote:

I think he meant Paizo books that are not the Core Rulebook line, so stuff from the Campaign Setting, Player Companion, Adventure Paths, Modules, and possibly Tales and Comics lines.

Edit: Ninjaed

Ah, thanks.

Except for the bits about the Tales and Comics lines, that was what I was intending all along... Having a romp in all Paizo Pathfinder content for Bard stuff. I mean, as a VC, all the Paizo products got dumped into my downloads recently. This means that I can afford to look up the stuff that hasn’t made its way into Archives of Nethys (my main Pathfinder ruleset research tool when deciding what to buy.)

Are there actual playable Pathfinder rules being produced in the Tales and Comics lines?

So. I know myself. This is something that I would be happy to be a contributor to, but I’m pretty sure that I could not take lead on it and be sane. There’s still way too much on my to-do list in my region.

Still, let’s look at all that is involved. I think that the first thing would be the full listing and breakdown of all the Masterpieces. Then would come all the bard / skald archetypes and prestige classes with their various types of performances. As far as I know, the only way to get a bardic masterpiece is to have sufficient levels of bard or skald to qualify... Though that will be definitely something we have to look at.

It’s going to be a BIG project, no doubt. But honestly, I don’t like to whine and I don’t like to wait. I’d rather be a part of the change that I want to see in the world. Maybe we can do this in baby steps?

Hmm

The trickiest ones to locate are the sidelong feats, spells, magic items, and so on that interact with performances in some way. To give an example of one that doesn't cause much trouble, the tuned bowstring.

Rysky and others are correct about the Pathfinder RPG line being the books branded "Pathfinder RPG" aka most of the hardcovers.


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Plot twist: The real reason we haven't gotten a FAQ is because of the thread title.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

I know this is an old one, but since the thread is still active, I've removed the FAQ REQUEST at the front of the thread title. Please use the FAQ "flag" system, you should see the link for this next to "list" on the upper right side of each post.


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You can do that?... Well sonofab+*@&! So that's what I've been doing wrong.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Plot twist: The real reason we haven't gotten a FAQ is because of the thread title.

Well, now that that's taken care of, I'll be placing 50 gp on us getting an answer next Tuesday.


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Pounce wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Plot twist: The real reason we haven't gotten a FAQ is because of the thread title.
Well, now that that's taken care of, I'll be placing 50 gp on us getting an answer next Tuesday.

Dare to dream, Pounce. Dare to dream... ;-)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Davor Firetusk wrote:
seems likely isn't really good enough in this case.

If no one can come up with an exception then 'seems likely' becomes 'confirmed'.

Seriously, all performances/masterpieces/sagas can be classified as either;

1: Those whose effects end when the performance ends
2: Those with effects that continue after the performance ends

My take is that, while none of these can be performed simultaneously (unless you have 2 bards, Duet familiar, Shadow Bard, etc), the effects of multiple type 2 performances can overlap with any single type 1 performance if their duration(s) allow.

There really aren't any "edge cases" which fall out of those categories.


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I tried to organize potential FAQ responses back in March (see below for the final iteration). (CLARIFICATION: Only one of the three positions below would picked. The other two would be discarded. Any other potential positions to add to the list?)

Mark mentioned that data may be needed, but it still boils down to very few positions.

What are the most grievous masterpiece vs. performance examples?

**********************************************************

Position #1 - Masterpieces are Bardic Performance are Masterpieces

Position #1 FAQ:

Masterpieces are bardic performances and follow bardic performance rules. If a bard starts a new masterpiece or other bardic performance, any existing masterpiece effect immediately ends. A bard does not need to spend a free action to maintain masterpieces, nor does a masterpiece effect immediately end if the bard falls unconscious, etc. The masterpiece effects linger until their duration expires, or until a new masterpiece or other bardic performance is started.

Example: If a bard has activated Triple Time on an ally, whenever they start to activate another bardic performance (or masterpiece), Triple Time wears off immediately, no matter where the ally is.

Position #2 - Masterpieces are unusual applications of the bardic performance ability. Any masterpiece that is completed and has a duration independent of the bard no longer counts against the maintained performance limit.

Position #2 FAQ:

Masterpieces can be separated into two categories: maintained and independent. A masterpiece is maintained if it requires the bard to spend actions in subsequent rounds or else the masterpiece will end. A masterpiece is independent of the bard if no action must be taken after the masterpiece is activated for the effect to continue for its entire duration.

A maintained masterpiece immediately ends if a bard starts a new masterpiece or bardic performance. An independent masterpiece does not end if a bard starts a new masterpiece or bardic performance. It lasts until its duration expires.

Example: If a bard has completed the activation of the Triple Time masterpiece on an ally, the ally retains the bonus even if the bard starts another Bardic Performance or Masterpiece.

Example: If a bard has the masterpiece The Depths of the Mountain activated, since it is a maintained Masterpiece, the bard must end that masterpiece if Inspire Courage is started.

Position #3 - Masterpieces are unusual applications of the bardic performance ability. They are not actual Bardic Performances.

Position #3 FAQ:

Masterpieces and Bardic Performances are independent of each other. They do not interact nor do they prevent or cancel each other. Both can be active at the same time, although they each require separate activation actions.

Example: A bard has Inspire Courage going in battle. The battle is almost finished, so the bard starts the masterpiece Triple Time while Inspire Courage is still up and running. Rounds of Bardic Performance are spent simultaneously on both abilities.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I really like #3 there.

It's simple, it's elegant.

There's only one problem.

What does Lingering Performance do in relation to a long-duration Masterpiece?


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


I really like #3 there.

It's simple, it's elegant.

There's only one problem.

What does Lingering Performance do in relation to a long-duration Masterpiece?

I like it too.

Honestly the masterpieces system is good when you consider them as easily obtainable flavorful (SU) abilities that consume bardic music rounds as their ''pool'' for use limit.

I would say that if a FAQ ruling is to be outed, masterpieces are independant performances, they use bardic music rounds, and that is it. No way to extend them with lingering performance, no way to shorten casting time with bardic performance, no way to have your shadow bard and your virtuoso performance on in order to unleash and maintain 3 masterpieces at the same time.

If you rule them as (SU) abilities everything becomes neat and tidy IMHO


I had, actually, just yesterday talked to Mark about doing something along the lines of number 2 yesterday.

I had put them into 2 categories of "ritual" and "performance" where the former could be paid at the start and work with bardic performances. But it would not work with feats like lingering song or items like tuned bowstring.

The others (paid round by round) did the opposite. Feats and items worked with them but they stopped at during inspire courage.

I even suggested that feats (2 of them) could be made to change one into the other for a certain cost at the time of starting it, but would be treated at the time of playing as the other kind.

To me, it was a natural extension of what I wanted to do, but made it so everyone could have their "songs and play them too" as it were.

I didn't say anything at the time as this is a rules forum not a homebrew. But.. that's what I came up with.

It solved the issues of how items work. It solved if you could play with them and normal songs. It gave an option to change masterpieces to give more options (something pathfinder is all about) but most importantly it let us actually USE these masterpeices. Like.. theres dozens and none get used. It's a friggan travesty.

So that's what I did yesterday.

Liberty's Edge

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Shadow Bard, Virtuoso Performance, Tuned Bowstring, Duet familiar, and the like strike me as completely different issues than the original question(s) about how performances and masterpieces (plus sagas now) interact. Trying to sort out how each of these works with various performance/masterpiece/saga mechanics introduces a whole host of other issues which have only been lightly touched on in this thread.

For example, Virtuoso Performance allows you to start a second performance by spending two bardic performance rounds and then maintain both by spending 3 bardic performance rounds per round.

How does that interact with performances/masterpieces that cost more than one bardic performance round per round to begin with? What about those that require several rounds of performance up front that don't actually cost performance rounds? Should the spell only work with 'standard' performances that cost one performance round per round? Should all performance round costs of the second performance be doubled? Etc.

If the goal has become to resolve all of those issues then I can see where the 'every case must be examined' view is coming from. Indeed, we'd likely want to develop standard terminology to discuss all the disparate kinds of mechanics different performances have (e.g. 'delay' for performances that have no cost for several rounds, 'completion' for performances that require consecutive rounds of performance before they are triggered, 'maintenance' for performances that maintain an effect each round they continue, etc).

The original questions are much simpler;

1: Does the limit on one performance at a time apply to masterpieces?
I'd say yes. Otherwise, there is nothing preventing multiple masterpieces from being used simultaneously.

2: Do the effects of performances that continue after the performance ends get cancelled if a new performance is started?
I'd say no. Otherwise, effects which were meant to last for hours get cancelled after a few seconds.

Of course, rules could always be added or changed to address both of those issues, but short of revising the existing text those seem like the 'cleanest' answers to me.

Dark Archive

To hop back in CB, yes I believe the goal is to look at all of those possible interactions in determining how to handle Masterpieces. How those spells, feats, and magic items work will ultimately be determined directly by any FAQ. While it may not have been 'the original question' I am squarely in the camp that means the original question wasn't well thought out enough. So you have generated your set of examples where there needs to be careful consideration.

Liberty's Edge

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Davor, they are different issues.

'How does Virtuoso Performance work with performances/masterpieces that do not cost one bardic performance round per round?' is a different question with different considerations than 'How does Shadowbard work with performances/masterpieces that do not cost one bardic performance round per round?'... and both are different than questions about whether multiple performances and/or masterpieces can be performed simultaneously or what happens to effects that last past the end of a performance if another performance is begun.

There is no reason that ALL of these questions must be answered at the same time... and, as most of them weren't even asked, no reason to expect that was the intent.

That said, the easiest solution for all of the bardic performance modifying abilities is to say that they ONLY work with performances (including masterpieces and sagas) that cost one bardic performance round per round.

Beyond that we get in to rewriting the existing text of each ability differently to make them work... Virtuoso Performance could be rewritten to say that the second performance costs double its normal amount, Shadowbard could be revised to say that performances which burn more (or less) than one bardic performance round (BPR) per round adjust the duration of the spell correspondingly such that the spell provides one bardic performance round per level, Tuned Bowstring could be updated to say that costs greater than one BPR per round have to come out of the character's daily pool, et cetera.

However, as each of those effects works differently, each of those are really separate FAQs... which, for the most part, haven't actually been asked at all. Certainly not to the tune of 400+ FAQ hits.


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These are linked issues because answering the original questions opens up a slew of other questions considering those abilities.

Which is why I think masterpieces should not be bardic performances at all ever.


I could live with Option #2, but I think #3 would be much better.


Still not officially resolved, correct?


Quite correct.


I'd vote for option #3. Masterpieces are not performances, but use bardic performance rounds to activate/fuel the ability. As such, Lingering Performance does not effect their duration, unless otherwise noted in the masterpiece description.

Silver Crusade

I'd vote for #3 too. The main reason being that masterpieces take the place of feats and spells, and that feats and spells can be used in conjunction with bardic performance or raging song, and with each other.

One point on that, though, is that there are masterpieces that specifically call out to be affected by lingering performance (like Battlesong of the People's Revolt). But that's covered by the rule that specific trumps general.

The only reason why it should not work like #3, is the logical thought that so many performances will become a totally uninspiring cacaphony. But, unless we create a whole new ruleset for performance DC's to jam harmoniously, it seems the easiest thing we can do is to assume that the bards & skalds know how to combine their performances. After all, they can continue to inspire by playing the fiddle as a free action, while fighting with two weapons. If they can do that, then jamming multiple musical pieces should be easy.

I would offer to scour all material to find and solve discrepancies with such a general rule, but I don't have all the material. Lau Bannenberg (named recently in this thread) lives in my city, though, so if he has everything, we might collaborate, if he feels like it. Otherwise the Nethys Archives will have to do. However, I'm not going to do all that work, without getting it as an assignment with parameters by Paizo. It happens too often in life, that unasked for work gets wasted because it doesn't exactly fit.

Liberty's Edge

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So, per '#3' if masterpieces (and therefore also sagas) are not performances... does that mean you can perform multiple masterpieces simultaneously?

The only thing preventing this currently is the restriction against having more than one performance in effect at a time... if masterpieces are not performances then you could stack up half a dozen simultaneous masterpieces (plus one performance).

I really doubt that was the intent. Or likely to be something they'd decide to go with moving forward.

...and while it pulls masterpieces out of the questions about Shadowbard, tuned bowstring, and suchlike, it still leaves how those features interact with performances that don't cost one bardic performance round per round unanswered.


CBDunkerson wrote:
So, per '#3' if masterpieces (and therefore also sagas) are not performances... does that mean you can perform multiple masterpieces simultaneously?

I am reasonably sure that if they chose the #3 option, they'd make sure to add something along the lines of limiting activation of one masterpiece at one time, similar to performances.


The biggest counter to the number 3 plan is skalds
Skalds have their raging song which counts as rage and battle song of the people gives a teamwork feat, aka amplified rage. If you're able to do both at once you're able to be giving +6 or more to STR and CON at quite low levels.

If we are okay with this then option 3 can be looked at more.
If this is not okay, we either need to not look at option 3 OR modify 3 somehow to not let this combo work.


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Chess Pwn wrote:

The biggest counter to the number 3 plan is skalds

Skalds have their raging song which counts as rage and battle song of the people gives a teamwork feat, aka amplified rage. If you're able to do both at once you're able to be giving +6 or more to STR and CON at quite low levels.

If we are okay with this then option 3 can be looked at more.
If this is not okay, we either need to not look at option 3 OR modify 3 somehow to not let this combo work.

Or, we can let the orc/half-orc (or human with orc racial heritage) skald keep his little trick and not worry too much about an additional +2 to hit and +2 (or +3) to damage from amplified rage, which they can't pull off until 4th level away? I mean, its not that big a deal when other classes are compared side by side.

What if you have a bloodrager/cavalier multiclass with amplified rage and a skald without it? Same issue, but TWO LEVELS LOWER. A skald 1 / cavalier 1 could do the exact same thing, by themselves.


@ Chess Pwn: The Skald is weaker than a Bard overall, solely because Rage is more easily acquired compared to Inspire Courage, which applies to everyone equally, and is harder to improve in comparison. Even rage powers and spell kenning aren't enough to compare to the Bard's sheer versatility, which isn't really limited to a "per X" system.

A single combination that requires a lot of system mastery to conceive is hardly grounds to reconsider a FAQ answer.


DeathlessOne wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

The biggest counter to the number 3 plan is skalds

Skalds have their raging song which counts as rage and battle song of the people gives a teamwork feat, aka amplified rage. If you're able to do both at once you're able to be giving +6 or more to STR and CON at quite low levels.

If we are okay with this then option 3 can be looked at more.
If this is not okay, we either need to not look at option 3 OR modify 3 somehow to not let this combo work.

Or, we can let the orc/half-orc (or human with orc racial heritage) skald keep his little trick and not worry too much about an additional +2 to hit and +2 (or +3) to damage from amplified rage, which they can't pull off until 4th level away? I mean, its not that big a deal when other classes are compared side by side.

What if you have a bloodrager/cavalier multiclass with amplified rage and a skald without it? Same issue, but TWO LEVELS LOWER. A skald 1 / cavalier 1 could do the exact same thing, by themselves.

So it's not an OR, it was literally the first option I listed.

The cavalier dip is limited to once a day and multiclassing vs one class and possible every fight OR it's requiring two people and again is very limited in the times a cavalier can use that ability.

Getting +6 is a lv16 ability, this boost is really large to be so easily obtained. And the question is, are there then reasons to NOT be a half-orc skald with this combo?
Like it's clear that the DEVs don't like to have one setup be so powerful as to be "the one true build" and this combo if legal seems like it'd be that for skalds.

and it is a big deal side by side, skald is handing out +3 to attack and +3or4 to damage and +12 HP at lv4, a bard at lv5 is handing out +2s only and not +3 till level 7 with an expensive item and lv11 normally. Skalds like I said are normally lv16 when they get this big of boosts, and the skald gets better still as they level.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

@ Chess Pwn: The Skald is weaker than a Bard overall, solely because Rage is more easily acquired compared to Inspire Courage, which applies to everyone equally, and is harder to improve in comparison. Even rage powers and spell kenning aren't enough to compare to the Bard's sheer versatility, which isn't really limited to a "per X" system.

A single combination that requires a lot of system mastery to conceive is hardly grounds to reconsider a FAQ answer.

1 it's not a lot of system mastery, especially that once it's legal it'll be on all the updated guides for people to know about.

Also, it seems like situations like this is Mark brought up as to WHY they don't have a FAQ answer yet, like it took what, 3 days for 1 hole to show up, how many more holes are there if we really looked at everything?

And if this is allowed, does this become "the one true build" for skalds where you're told you're dumb for not being a half-orc and taking this combo cause it's so good. Similar to dervish dance on a magus, fate's favored on half-orc and divine melee casters, or beast totem on a barb. Options that are good enough to crowd out other option.

Like I'm not saying it is for sure, but I feel it is worth a much closer look than a quick dismissal because it questions the popular idea.


Chess Pwn wrote:
The cavalier dip is limited to once a day and multiclassing vs one class and possible every fight OR it's requiring two people and again is very limited in the times a cavalier can use that ability.

Those weren't the only examples of how you can could pull this off, just the first one or two that popped into my mind. For example, Practiced Tactician gives more uses per day. Even allowing for 4th level, it is by no means something that can't be duplicated.

A 4th level skald using battle of people's revolt in addition to rage song is burning through their 11(ish) rounds per day fairly quickly and spending two standard actions to get this started, so lingering performance is only getting minimal optimal use. You'll burn at least three rounds of performance before you can stop (until 7th level, then its two move actions, 2 performance rounds) and let lingering performance give two rounds of lingering rage. You'll get to act on round 3 if you wanted to, and the fight is probably well on its way by then. At that level, you could do it roughly 3 times a day for full benefit.

Its a nova ability. I say let them keep it. It would be easier to pull off with teamwork between an orc descendant cavalier (or similar teamwork feat sharing party member) with Practiced Tactician and your typical skald. Two people focus talents in a single round to maximize benefits.


Honestly I don't see how that combo breaks the game in any way. Skald to me is an npc class. I've always wanted to do a viking fighter raid with skald backup or somesuch, but otherwise I feel inspire courag eis much much better by level 5-6.

I've read bardic performances extensively and I've yet to find anything gamebreaking, weither you have 6 ongoing or not.

I mean sure, you could disguise yourself AND move slightly faster for a long amount of time, while you have the basking glow of natural sunlight on you...

But at the same time that druid just became a 20 foot tall humongous fire beast and is laying waste to the ball.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

...and the Shifter is hiding in the corner in Mouse form because the Druid is doing it all already.

Dark Archive

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Lesser Spirit Totem rage power can get pretty ridiculous if you combine with either a large party or a summoner. On a Barbarian it is kind of eh, but for the skald it could outscale inspire courage in a number of circumstances.

Silver Crusade

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Davor Firetusk wrote:
Lesser Spirit Totem rage power can get pretty ridiculous if you combine with either a large party or a summoner. On a Barbarian it is kind of eh, but for the skald it could outscale inspire courage in a number of circumstances.

Having played a Barbarian with Spirit Totems and played with a Skald that had them they are f$@~ing awesome things to have.


We have always played that because of the cost (feat or spell) and effect (usually duplicating a spell or a weaker form of a bardic song that takes multiple rounds sometimes) that it reasonably made sense to treat them more like spells. So one bardic, and all the masterpieces you could afford to maintain with your action economy/music rounds


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Chess Pwn wrote:

The biggest counter to the number 3 plan is skalds

Skalds have their raging song which counts as rage and battle song of the people gives a teamwork feat, aka amplified rage. If you're able to do both at once you're able to be giving +6 or more to STR and CON at quite low levels.

If we are okay with this then option 3 can be looked at more.
If this is not okay, we either need to not look at option 3 OR modify 3 somehow to not let this combo work.

Attempting to quantify this:

Raging Song:
- standard action (levels 1-6), move or standard (level 7-12), etc.
- +2 STR and CON (levels 1-7)
- +4 STR and CON (levels 8-15)
- +6 STR and CON (levels 16-20

Battle Song of the People: (level 4 required)
- standard action (levels 4-6), move or standard (level 7-12), etc.
- +4 STR and CON if adjacent/flanking to/with another raging ally

Combining:

Levels 1-3:
- Round 1: Gives +2 STR to party
- Assume: 16 CHA
--- 6 rounds per day max @ 1st

Levels 4-6:
- Round 1: Gives +2 STR to party
- Round 2: Gives +6 STR to party (IF they are adjacent or flanking)
- Assume: 16 CHA
--- 5 rounds per day max @ 4th
--- 7 rounds per day max @ 6th

Levels 7:
- Round 1: Gives +6 STR to party (IF they are adjacent or flanking)
- Assume: 16 CHA
--- 9 rounds per day max @ 7th

Levels 8-12:
- Round 1: Gives +8 STR to party (IF they are adjacent or flanking)
- Assume: 16 CHA
--- 10 rounds per day max @ 8th

etc.

Real Costs:
- Required to be a half-orc or orc
- 1 feat (or spell known)
- half the effective bardic performance rounds
- an extra standard action (or extra round to activate) from levels 4-14

Real Benefits:
- +4 STR (extra) to allies IF they are raging AND adjacent/flanking

The extra standard action (or round) to activate should give something good. Casting Haste or Good Hope at level 7 on round 1 is a better action. I don't see this as a broken example due to the costs involved.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Rory wrote:
The extra standard action (or round) to activate should give something good.

At 7th level, a performance can be started as a move action... so, if simultaneous performances/masterpieces were allowed, it would be entirely possible to fire off two of them each round. Three per round at 13th level.

Another issue with allowing simultaneous performances/masterpieces is that it would devalue the few abilities which allow this currently. The Duettist Bard's familiar and the Virtuoso Performance spell allow simultaneous performances, but at a higher than normal bardic performance round cost. So why pay extra to do it that way when you can do it all by yourself at a lower cost?


CBDunkerson wrote:
Another issue with allowing simultaneous performances/masterpieces is that it would devalue the few abilities which allow this currently. The Duettist Bard's familiar and the Virtuoso Performance spell allow simultaneous performances, but at a higher than normal bardic performance round cost. So why pay extra to do it that way when you can do it all by yourself at a lower cost?

Duettist doesn't allow simultaneous performances until level 14. At that point, there's two ways this could go:

1) Performance == Masterpiece. Thus, this archetype becomes the way to get both out simultaneously, and gives it a niche.
2) Performance != Masterpiece. Anyone could already get both going at the same time anyway. The difference is that this archetype is still (one of) the only way(s) to get two different actual performances going at the same time. Say, Inspire Courage while Countersonging the Advanced Dire Fiendish Harpies with class levels. The same logic applies to the Virtuoso Performance spell. It allows you to do something you normally couldn't do: play two Performances at once.

They both still fill the same niche they did before, regardless of the Masterpiece ruling. The only question is whether you need these to get a Masterpiece and a Performance in effect at the same time - whether a Masterpiece is part of their niche or not.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Rory wrote:
The extra standard action (or round) to activate should give something good.

At 7th level, a performance can be started as a move action... so, if simultaneous performances/masterpieces were allowed, it would be entirely possible to fire off two of them each round. Three per round at 13th level.

Another issue with allowing simultaneous performances/masterpieces is that it would devalue the few abilities which allow this currently. The Duettist Bard's familiar and the Virtuoso Performance spell allow simultaneous performances, but at a higher than normal bardic performance round cost. So why pay extra to do it that way when you can do it all by yourself at a lower cost?

Ninja'd by shaventalz


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What masterpieces are there that are combat relevant, that would potentially be open for usage while in initiative? (I'll be mainly noting down those with short durations, rather than the ones that last for several minutes, as if MPs are ruled to stack with bardic performances, you'll probably want to have those up and running pre-combat. Also, I’ll only be noting the ones that I think have potential combat applications, even if they are somewhat niche.)

Based off a quick scroll:

> Ancient's Flight: (Req: level 13) - lock dragons out of certain options.
Cost: 2/round / Activation: 1 full round (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> Ballad of the Homesick Wanderer: (Req: level 5) - dismiss outsiders.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 full round (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> Banshee's Requiem: (Req: level 17) - SoS, take 2 negative levels on failed save.
Cost: 3/round / Activation: 1 full round (Earliest available with other performances: level 17 (Swift))

> Battle Song of the People's Revolt: (Req: level 4) - give everyone a TW feat you have.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 standard action (Earliest available with other performances: level 7 (Move))

> Blazing Rondo: (Req: level 7) - variant Haste.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 standard action (Earliest available with other performances: level 7 (Move))

> Clamor of the Heavens: (Req: level 10) - heavily debuff evil opponents.
Cost: 3/ initial round, +1 for every round following / Activation: 3 full rounds (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> Dance of Captivating Desires: (Req: level 5) - debuff saves vs your enchantments.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 standard action (Earliest available with other performances: level 7 (Move))

> Dirge of the Torn Sail: (Req: level 7) - Greater Command (Flee).
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 standard action (Earliest available with other performances: level 7 (Move))

> Endless Waltz of the Eldest: (Req: level 4) - Fast Healing 3+ for one ally.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 standard action (Earliest available with other performances: level 7 (Move))

> Hymn of Restorative Harmonics: (Req: level 6) - Ally within 30 feet can make a new save vs certain conditions + delay poison for all allies.
Cost: 3/cast (not continuous) / Action: 1 full round (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> Illusion’s Decree: (Req: level 5) - Give yourself and allies +4 vs illusions.
Cost: 1+n/round, n = allies you want to affect / Activation: 1 full round (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> Life Budding in Salted Earth: (Req: level 4) - Give allies fast healing 1+.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 standard action (Earliest available with other performances: level 7 (Move))

> Melody of Frightful Death: (Req: level 7) - Deal 1d6 energy damage to everyone close to you.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 standard action (Earliest available with other performances: level 7 (Move))

> Melody of Surrender: (Req: level 4) - Give -2 penalty on Sense Motive & vs enchantment effects.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 round (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> Minuet of the Midnight Ivy: (Req: level 4) - Can take 5-foot steps into difficult terrain, etc. Can also gain a climb speed. Allies can gain benefit if succeeding at dance check.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 full round (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> Music Beyond the Spheres: (Req: level 13) - Limited Wish, take ability drain. (level 17: Wish, but with material components)
Cost: 1/cast (not continuous) / Activation: 1 full round action (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> Pallavi of Nirvana’s Blossoming: (Req: level 11) - Divine Sunlight, 100 ft radius, lasting for 1 minute.
Cost: 3/cast (not continuous) / Activation: 3 full rounds. (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> Ragadahn’s Spiraling Ascent: (Req: level 7) - Immobile cyclone that can move opponents around, gaining power as you perform.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 standard action (Earliest available with other performances: level 7 (Move))

> Rat Quadrille: (Req: level 4) - Penalise an opponents attack rolls & concentration for a set period.
Cost: 3/cast (not continuous) / Activation: 1 standard action (Earliest available with other performances: level 7 (Move))

> Rondeau of Heavenly Order: (Req: level 4) - Restrict opponents movement options.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 standard action (Earliest available with other performances: level 7 (Move))

> Song of Extinction: (Req: level 15) - Earthquake as the spell, plus Reflex DC 25 save or die.
Cost: All bardic performance rounds / day. Activation: 5 full rounds (Earliest available with other performances: -, uses up all bardic performance rounds)

> Symphony of Sylandurla’s Ascent: (Req: level 7) - Allies become immune to a chosen condition. Allies already affected can make new saves every round.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 full round (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> Symphony of the Elysian Heart: (Req: level 7) - Limited Mass Freedom of Movement.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 full round (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> The Canticle of Joy: (Req: level 7) - Bestow Curse as long as the bard maintains the performance.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 round (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> The Dance of 23 Steps : (Req: level 4) - A better Combat Expertise that stacks with Combat Expertise.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 free action (Earliest available with other performances: level 4 (Free))

> The Dumbshow of Gorroc: (Req: level 6) - AoE damage plants & oozes.
Cost: 2/cast (not continuous) / Activation: 1 full round (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> The House of Imaginary Walls: (Req: level 10) - Sort of Wall of Force for creatures who can see you perform.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 standard action/10 foot square (Earliest available with other performances: level 10 (Move))

> The Lullaby of Ember the Ancient: (Req: level 7) - Single target Deep Slumber.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 round (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> The Quickening Pulse: (Req: level 7) - Enemies take 1d6 bleed damage every round you perform.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 standard action (Earliest available with other performances: level 7 (Move))

> The Rheumy Refrain: (Req: level 5) - Single target "stagger" foe.
Cost: 1/round / Activation: 1 standard action (Earliest available with other performances: level 7 (Move))

> The Sea Is Now My Sky: (Req: level 9) - You & allies gain swim speed.
Cost: 1/hour / Activation: 1 full round (Earliest available with other performances: level 13 (Swift))

> The Winds of the Five Heavens: (Req: level 10) - Control Winds.
Cost: 3/cast (not continuous) / Activation: 3 full rounds (Earliest available with other performances: level 7 (Move))

So - I suppose the big question is, is there anything in here that's actually going to beat out casting a spell post level 7, rather than getting a masterpiece up and going? It seems to me as if it's mainly the Battle Song of the People's Revolt masterpiece that has some serious in-combat applications, but maybe I'm missing something?


A thing to consider is that maybe a masterpiece will come in as the #2 thing to do, meaning yes, good hope is amazing, but what if it's not that hard looking of a fight so you don't want to burn a spell that isn't needed, for these fights do any masterpieces jump up in value as a great secondary lesser fight option?


That's an entirely fair point, Chess Pwn - that being said, there's additional merit to the spell comparison, given that there is an opportunity cost in learning a masterpiece (which is either a spell known or a feat). Essentially, given that you probably don't want too many redundancies amongst your limited options, I would think that chances are that you won't take a masterpiece that's just a lesser version of what one of your spells could already do - does that make any sense?


Pounce wrote:
That's an entirely fair point, Chess Pwn - that being said, there's additional merit to the spell comparison, given that there is an opportunity cost in learning a masterpiece (which is either a spell known or a feat). Essentially, given that you probably don't want too many redundancies amongst your limited options, I would think that chances are that you won't take a masterpiece that's just a lesser version of what one of your spells could already do - does that make any sense?

For sure, Just the example was that good hope was a better use than amplified rage for the skald, but when you have 2 spells per day and this is only a mild fight then perhaps throwing down amplified because you have plenty of performance rounds.

Or the one that gives haste, Blazing Rondo, that seems like a much better option than the haste spell, bigger bonuses and a less resource cost.

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