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After spending a few minutes in this thread...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

I've seen some ridiculous parsing of rules and abuses of English to justify all sorts of shenanigans, but this thread hits new lows.

Just sayin...


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FenrisJohanson wrote:

Ok I am the GM so I'll post so I can help clear somethings up, but I'm not spoiling my game.

1. Gallyck, and the rest of the party are amazing to tabletop with, and they fight like the family/friends they are. So its never a dull moment. They are a bunch of murder hobos most of the time, but they are my murder hobos. And I stand by he's decision. It didn't fully go the way he wanted, that's gaming though. They needed loot, I had been holding back a little, so go for it.

2. Yes. I admit, I made a cookie cutter npc, with no level or stats and basically had him there to sell items. So when I was asked to exchange spells, I said no, because I didn't have them. Truth. Then Gallyck takes me to the side and told me his plan, I thought is was great thing for his character and give me a chance to try some things I'd been wanting to for a while now.

3. Things are set in motion for the party by this wizard. In a fit of laziness again, I just handed him what I had written down for his "spellbook" and it had his level on the sheet of paper, but he would have known how powerful he was very shortly after looking in the spellbook.
So yeah...some of it has been planed, some reactive, but hey, we have a good time. I feel Gallyck was playing to the character and we will post later to let you all know what happens from her.
Thanks for all your crazy posts.

Hooray - GM update.

Glad to hear you have a great group and enjoy DM'ing them. That's huge.

Hope you garner some hilarious options from the thread for Gallyck other than just a high level "ROFLSTOMP" as one person put it.

I hope we hear what happened sometime down the road.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Petty Alchemy wrote:

Somewhere, on another forum:

"Hey guys. So one of my players decided to kill the shopkeeper who is a lvl 16 wizard because he would not share spells. I was completely unprepared, I didn't have stats for him or defenses for his shop. I know, I know, a wizard of that level would be far more prepared but it's in the past now. My question is: What should I do now? There should be consequences, right?"

"Well if you don't want to retcon, just say he had a Clone up. Easy enough, and a common precaution at that level. As for vengeance? Have your wizard research the PC, discover he wants to be a lich, then scry-fry-and-reanimate-as-a-skeleton."

"Splendid, that sounds like just desserts indeed."

ROFL!!

Ok, if this is indeed the case - I'm going to go with DM Derpitude. The DM let a 16th level Wizard get tagged and bagged by a low level guy. Sounds like he ret-con'd the Clone response, and is probably going to fry our plucky hero, erm, plucky murder hobo.

Too bad. Someone should direct him to this thread - he might see a lot more potential than just "kill Gallyck".

And who puts a 16th level wizard as a shop keeper? I'd expect back story, or SOMETHING, to justify it - but I'd go out on a limb here and say that is probably missing too.

Now I'm going to have to hunt down that thread...


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Imbicatus wrote:
Gallyck wrote:
Yeah i mean i was totally annoying to all the party members by saving their skins multiple times and the only one with an int score over 10. But continue to call me the worst players ever because i dont play your way.
It doesn't really matter how many times you saved your party when you just put them in the bullseye of a 16th wizard out for revenge. You likely just had them marked for death with you.

I mean, lets be realistic for a sec here - I'd love to hear from Gallyck's DM on this - because frankly, for a 16th level wizard to be totally caught off guard and with such minimal defenses active that a 5-6th level guy can single handedly take him down? Epic DM fail, unless the DM WANTED the player to succeed. DM motivations (and/or a moment of DM Derpitude) play into the whole scenario here.

Think about that. The DM may be using this for potential future plot hooks, adventures, etc, etc.

I, for one, hope that Gallyck will give us an update on what happens next. That will tell us a lot about his DM, too...


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I think Gallyck is getting a bit of a rough ride, heheh.

Elements of murder-hoboism? Sure. But who among us hasn't had that itch and just HAD to scratch it at least once?

Possibility of lots of great adventure hooks, etc, for the DM? You Betcha!

As a DM I'd have a great time with this plot development. Lots of potential fun for the whole team.


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Drow don't die groveling. Neither should you.

Your NE. You're a wizard. You're elite. Start acting like it.

The high level guy might decide that's a spark he likes. If he doesn't you're no worse off than all the roads that lead to your grisly demise.

But, think about what happens if he does LIKE the cut of your gib? Power man, he's got some, you can learn and grow and eventually replace him as his student, then his master.

Be the NE wizard I know you can be. You killed a guy way outside your weight-class. That's choice. You have potential.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You've got another option to try that I don't think was mentioned in previous posts:

Brazen it out.

Mr. 16th Level can find you. He can kill you. He should be able to do it without breaking a sweat. Even with all the advice about escape and evasion, reincarnation, etc.

But - remember when he said "you aren't worthy?". Well, when he shows up for the rematch, remind him of those words (hopefully you can utter them before you die) and ask - "I think I'm worthy now, I killed your butt once already. Now, how about we just get past that little inconvenience and work together? I need a mentor, and maybe you need a gopher..."

Maybe Mr.Wiz is looking for a worthy apprentice and this was a test. Maybe killing him means passing that test.

So, be ballsy. Show some attitude. If you're going to die, die on your feet facing it, be that NE honcho you know yourself to be.

Or, it was a Stupid Test and you failed. I think the consequences of this option are pretty obvious to everyone...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd take a look at a real world analog - Greek City States and why they fought each other in various wars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece

The Lelantine war was over fertile farmland. We also have the Messenian wars, the Peloponnesian war, the Corinthian War, etc, etc.

Model your 3 city states after Athens, Sparta and Corinth...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I would think that people taking 1-10 rounds of 6d6 damage is going to achieve your objective.

Even if you are in a building - if building gets destroyed, well, welcome to the funnel cloud and 1-10 rounds of 6d6 damage.

This spell is my "go to" spell for nuking armies, towns, etc...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mathius wrote:

I think control winds might cover the biggest area of any city killer spells.

Combine with a rod of widen and can cover an area more then half a mile wide. I know that a tornado may not destroy a fortified building but I think that even a town with only stone or brick buildings would be torn up by all the flying debris. To make it worse the wind stays on for and hour and half and you can change the direction repeatedly so that you come at things from all directions.

Without freedom of movement you gonna die.

Put the glyph on chest, make it invisible and have summon carry it in to town (invisibly).

You'd need about two to pretty much wipe out London in the 1300's - and kill the balance of 80,000 people. Arguably, many cities in Golarion could probably be razed by just a single use of Control Winds.

For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_London#Norman_and_Medieval_London_. 281066_.E2.80.93_late_15th_century.29

Includes a nice scale map of London in 1300 - approx. pop around 80k. Compare that to most cities in Golarion for population (and extrapolate how much area such a city would take up, if we use London in 1300 AD as an example), and Control Winds is pretty much THE nuclear option.


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Ravingdork wrote:
My transmuter, Haylannar, slew approximately 700 foes in just over 5 minutes at 10th-level.

From the link...

"Once the screams of their dying brethren rang through the army chorus like a chainsaw through a parakeet..."

"Like a chainsaw through a parakeet" - Ravingdork, thou art a wordsmith indeed...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Mathius wrote:
Given that high level spell casters are thing it seams that armies should be smaller.

Smaller than what? Armies of hundreds of thousands or millions didn't really become a thing until the 20th century in the real world. One of the largest medieval battles, the First Battle of Tannenburg, involved something like 20,000 men on either side. (By contrast, the 1944-5 Battle of the Bulge involved a roughly a million on each side.)

I think the 50,000 - 70,000 Roman dead at the Battle of Cannae would like to have a word with you. Ditto the dead and captured (upwards of 100,000 depending on source) from Caesar's Battle at Alesia.

Ancient battles, and we have LOTS of real world examples, often had very large armies. I'm not even going to get into some of the ancient Chinese historical battles. To say that large armies didn't become a thing until the 20th century is just patently false.

However, from a more Golarion perspective, I think we have to take into account the size of the countries, etc, that could be involved in large scale warfare and their ability to field large armies. I would suggest that the presence of spell casters would radically change the battle field to look a lot more like modern warfare than anything found in our own ancient or medieval Earth military history. You just don't cluster your men together in a Roman-esque formation if you are about to eat a Fireball (or worse).


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How about a simple Greater Glpyh of Warding with a level 20 Control Winds (to boost up to Tornado wind force instantly)? Let a low level mook infiltrate the army (as just another trooper) with orders to trigger glyph when he gets in a good position (like right in the middle of the army).

Area of Effect: 800 ft radius / 1600 foot diameter @caster level 20.
Everyone in the funnel cloud: 1d10 rounds of being tossed about for 6d6 damage/rnd. Approximate average damage: 30d6 (5 rnds @ 6d6 per round) per person. Added bonus: major destruction of buildings, etc.

Beat that, fireball...

So, yes, a single caster, with the right spells, can pretty much nuke an army (or a town/city) in a single round. You could cast this directly (putting yourself in the eye and then teleporting away via Contingency), or use multiple glyphs, etc.


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Regarding Vengeance, not branching into the 2nd book yet, but "weird, odd, threatening stuff".

Well, thematically (and you already know the theme) mutilated vermin (rats, etc) sent to various PC's in a wrapped gift box. Things like that left in their beds, tacked up to a post/wall in a public spot to be discovered on their way to their jobs, etc.

Perhaps the person doing the delivering is a small child or NPC the party cares about, who presents the PC with the "present" from someone who paid them a copper or two to deliver it. The NPC also delivers a message from the mysterious gift giver: "to tell you (the PC) that 'I'm next'" (to be clear - the NPC is 'next', not the PC) though they don't actually know what that means...opening the box with the grisly gift of course delivers the full message of what that cryptic verbal message means...

Aldern doesn't actually have to follow through, however, perhaps after party paranoia abates a bit (let them worry and stew over things) then they hear another bit of news - the NPC that delivered the present is missing...(and perhaps has been 'recruited' by Aldern for an appearance in Chapter 2 as something undead...)

Ramp up the paranoia so that the entire town is starting to worry that something unpleasant is on the loose - something that is as equally worrying or more so than Chopper was...and then onto Book 2 you go...party should be more than ready and motivated to put down the latest threat. Especially if you came at them sideways - Aldern might want to hit them where it hurts by targeting everyone/everything in Sandpoint they care about, BEFORE he finishes them off personally - leaving the Drow who so cruelly mutilated him for last.


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Bellona wrote:
Katarina_Blackthorne wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

I would certainly call for an alignment change to CE. Permanent mutilation - and no guarantee that he can afford/have access to the extremely high-level spell to fix that issue? Definitely Evil.

If she had just left him tied up in an embarassing situation, or roughed him up a bit, that would have remained in CN territory.

But this result? CE.

And yeah, go with Wrath.

In total agreement - doing this sort of this is totally in character for a Drow - it's cruel and sadistic and most definitely CE. One gets the impression it was pretty much done for the LULZ.

Now the fun part? As DM, setting up Foxglove's retribution. He should get really nasty. Hit targets the PC's care about, put out contracts on their lives, spread nasty rumors, try and set them up to take the fall for some horrible crime. When it's time, then try to take out the PC's himself.

Heck, Foxglove would be wise to plant some info with Shalelu that a Drow is about. That, in and of itself, should bring down some very unpleasant consequences for the Drow in particular and perhaps the party in general. A violent visit from the Winter Council might help clean things up a bit...


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Actually, nice necro on the thread! I never saw this and now that I've read it, I have to say, that was very well done, Doug.

Certainly something to potentially use either for Lyrie or as the basis for another job/encounter/etc for a group of PC's.

Consider it "yoinked". :-)

And thank-you!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think using undead is going to be a double-edged sword - and it can easily come back to bite them (no pun intended).

So, lets say the neighboring kingdom falls, is overrun/riddled with undead under the command of a vampire. Well, maybe the vampire is really liking the concept, and it's time to expand - into YOUR kingdom.

Now, time to think about countering the very strategy they used against their enemy - culminating in trying to kill off the vampire. Subsequent cleanup of all the free willed undead after that should prove to be a challenge, perhaps leading to an adventure to find the magical McGuffin that can turn the tide against waves and waves of undead.


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TheBobJones wrote:
Lastoth wrote:


There are a few certain races and classes which gain the equivalent of a 3rd level spell as an SLA, usually usable once per day. In a ruling that I strongly disagree with, its been decided that those characters gain a backdoor entrance into certain prestige classes without having to meet all of the normal pre-requisites.

Really!?!? Could you point me to that as I'd love to know. Thanks in advance.

BTW - I agree with you 100%.

I found it in the FAQ here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow

Back from June of 2013...


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I rather like Monk - Zen Archer. Equipped with a comp long bow for STR bonus to damage, of course.

By 3rd level you have Point Blank Master (no opp shots when I shoot a bow, yay). As well as Weapon Focus, Perfect Strike and lots of extra monk goodies via Ki pool at 4th.

I've always felt one of the biggest dangers to a bow wielder was attacks of opportunity against you when something got up close and personal. By level 3, it's a non-issue.

You might even want to consider a 3 level dip into Zen Archer to start and then flip to another class.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
I wrote:


Okay, now I have to get off my rear and come up with the Qlippoth-Spawn Tiefling character that I have been toying with to try to get into a Wrath of the Righteous campaign . . . .

And finally, after MAJOR IRL interruptions, I put together the character background (crunch coming later, of course, if he actually gets into a campaign . . .).

Dracovar wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

So, what happens when a goddess loses her faith?

In my campaign, Iomedae will fall. {. . .}

"The Penalty for Stupidity is Death". A good rule for PC's, just as good for the Gods. And Iomedae really knocked the "Lawful Stupid" ball clean outta the park here. {. . .}

So, does this mean you'll soon be writing the future Adventure Path Fall of the Righteous? Put my vote in for that . . . :-)

Fall of the Righteous - great idea! I think I'd bring Nocticula into the mix...

Nocticula: Hey Sweetie, why the sad face?
Iomedae: I just got demoted. Seems you can't just smack around your own people and call yourself a LG Goddess anymore. Saranae really blind-sided me and snagged my followers, smug, self-righteous, ^%$#$@ that she is.
Nocticula: You had the right idea, just wrong alignment. I should know, I fell too, a long, long time ago.
Iomedae: Really?
Nocticula: Yup. Fell hardcore. So, I just rolled with it. Took things to their logically evil and entertaining conclusions. It was liberating, in a way. And now you can take my place!
Iomedae: Wut?
Nocticula: Seriously, I've got my eye on some portfolios and pretty much pulled some cool strings lately to finagle myself some Godhood. You had an indirect hand in that, by the way, so thanks! As a reward, I offer you my old Abyssal realm to rule in my place.
Iomedae: But, but, you're EVIL.
Noticula: So are you, frankly. Shut up and deal. Get it out of your system. Have some real laughs, you're way to serious. A couple millennia from now, you'll be ready to get back into the Goddess game, trust me.
Iomedae: Fine, I accept, but only because I'm really going to punish the living daylights out of your followers, you know. I still despise chaos and evil.
Nocticula: I did the same thing. How do you think I got the reputation I have? Punish away, sweetie, it's pretty much expected.

(This is all, of course, just a random musing on my part.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Invisible wizard flies over to ship, lands on it, triggers a Feather Token - Anchor. Ship comes to a sudden halt.

Invisible wizard flies up a couple of hundred feet and unfurls his Treasure Stitched cloth, containing a 9x9x9 piece of granite.

Massive bomb weighing many, many tons crashes down onto the now stationary ship, blasting it's way through the decks, etc, breaks the back of the ship and down she goes.

Cheap, effective and only needs a 5th level wizard type (who has been equipped appropriately) to deliver the bomb.

Even the decks of WW2 battleships were vulnerable to plunging fire...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

First, I'd start to ask a few questions about the structure of the city itself - from there, it might become more apparent how to create a believable criminal organization.

1. Who/what is the government? Group of merchants? Local lord who is no longer swearing fealty to the old King? Cabal of wizards? You get the idea.

2. Determining the type and quality of government can then lead to what the local guard and military look like. If this city has been left to fend for itself, it is essentially a city-state. So, who is doing the policing and who is doing the military protection?

3. Is there a alignment tendency to the city? CN or LG or ??. That should also have an impact on what criminals arise from the shadows.

4. The laws (or lack thereof). IS a drug trade illegal? What about slavery? Now that the city is free of the King, perhaps there is some loosening of the law(s). Or the reverse, the people in power (see point 1) are actively getting more authoritarian and many activities, once legal, are no longer. Your original post sort of suggests the city might be LG (if gladiatorial games and drugs are illegal) but should that be the case?

So, set the stage for the city itself and I think the kind of criminals that might arise within it becomes a bit easier to create, and thus, be more believable.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Cao Phen wrote:
Guards and Wards spell seems to fit decently.
That only helps for a limited area and only if the enemy gets into the city. I'm more interested in destroying an army at range before they breech the walls.

Have someone trigger a Level 20 control winds spell device in the center of the army = F5 tornado. Or, if only lower level casters are available, then 2-4 Control Winds devices, one after the other to keep increasing the wind effect until Tornado is reached.

Of course, retaliation against the city might be similar in effect.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

33 thousand pounds is about 15 thousand kilograms. Just sayin...

So, time for Rusting Grasp to blow a hole in it and empty it out? Or a stone shape under one or two legs to tip it over using it's own weight?

Of course, there's always the question of where the water is going to go...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Firing up a new thread (a similar one the OP had some questionable wording in his post that probably killed the thread), so...

Here's my first one:

I've been trying to figure out a way to weaponize Mirror Hideaway and thought up the following (requires a 13th level witch, I suppose):

1. Witch casts Stinking Cloud (L3 spell)
2. Party (aka, the hit squad) wanders in and gets nauseated.
3. One by one (one per round), they wander out and immediately get dinged with a shot from the Witch's Remove Sickness (L1 spell) wand (cast at say level 3-5 for longer duration). Nausea is now suppressed for the duration of the spell.
4. Hit squad steps into the Mirror Hideaway, weapons at the ready.
5. Witch uses Teleport Object to teleport the mirror to a location where his/her target is located (obviously will need to scry or have some idea of where the mirror is going...)
6. Mirror breaks upon arrival (having been moved more than 5 feet) and hit squad is ejected - the 1d6 rounds of nausea effectively suppressed by the Remove Sickness.
7. Hit Squad attacks!
8. Nausea hits sometime after the battle (hopefully) is over as Remove Sickness ends.

Alternately, you could just use the Mirror Hideaway + Teleport Object to deploy your team(s), just don't dump them into a combat zone (because 1d6 rounds of nauseated condition is rather bad).

Sort of like a one-way Star Trek transporter away team, except with extra nausea.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ok, I've been trying to figure out a way to weaponize Mirror Hideaway and thought up the following (requires a 13th level witch, I suppose):

1. Witch casts Stinking Cloud (L3 spell)
2. Party (aka, the hit squad) wanders in and gets nauseated.
3. One by one (one per round), they wander out and immediately get dinged with a shot from the Witch's Remove Sickness (L1 spell) wand (cast at say level 3-5 for longer duration). Nausea is now suppressed for the duration of the spell.
4. Hit squad steps into the Mirror Hideaway, weapons at the ready.
5. Witch uses Teleport Object to teleport the mirror to a location where his/her target is located (obviously will need to scry or have some idea of where the mirror is going...)
6. Mirror breaks upon arrival (having been moved more than 5 feet) and hit squad is ejected - the 1d6 rounds of nausea effectively suppressed by the Remove Sickness.
7. Hit Squad attacks!
8. Nausea hits sometime after the battle (hopefully) is over as Remove Sickness ends.

Alternately, you could just use the Mirror Hideaway + Teleport Object to deploy your team(s), just don't dump them into a combat zone (because 1d6 rounds of nauseated condition is rather bad).

Sort of like a one-way Star Trek transporter away team, except with extra nausea.


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I will buy it.

Arcanist will be the first on my list of classes to check out. Then likely more the feats and other crunch.

Most of the other classes weren't that compelling to me - I often thought that will all the feats available to a player, you could craft your concept character from one of the base classes (or subsequent classes).

Still looking forward to it, though.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
UnArcaneElection wrote:

So, what happens when a goddess loses her faith?

In my campaign, Iomedae will fall. I generally go by the rule that "gods don't stick their fingers directly into the Prime Material Pie". They work through their intermediaries. If you are just grabbing people off the Prime, slapping them around and tossing them back, why don't the other gods do likewise? Seriously. Perhaps there are lots of examples of gods mucking around on the Prime, but I pretty much rule that they don't in my campaign. Otherwise, who needs adventurers when the Giant Thumb of God X can just manifest and squish the problem?

The unwritten, but generally accepted agreed upon by all gods manner of dealing with mortals - they just don't do what Iomedae just did when she directly messed with mortals. Iomedae crossed the line. The punishment from the other gods will be swift and merciless - she gets destroyed/falls/says bye-bye to her godhood. Aroden Mk2. Iomedean followers end up following Sarenae.

"The Penalty for Stupidity is Death". A good rule for PC's, just as good for the Gods. And Iomedae really knocked the "Lawful Stupid" ball clean outta the park here. You can read my previous posts in this thread as to why her actions made absolutely no sense what-so-ever.


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Ah, this brings back fond memories of the time my cleric ran around a town randomly placing Glyphs on building doors to burn down buildings. But, I digress.

Explosive Runes are a great terror tactic. Great use for my own homebrew "Kamikaze Kobold Klan".

"You see a large mob of kobolds charging you, wielding...paper"
Players: "Uh oh..."

For pure nuking though, my current fav has to be Control Winds cast at max level - go from still air to Tornado instantly. Good diameter too and the damage to pretty much everyone and everything will be impressive.

To stay on topic - For added joy, I'm thinking you leave your Explosive Rune leaflets in the area too - so now the survivors in the ruins and wreckage see paper strewn all over the place and...(boom). Wreck the place and even the debris can kill you if you survive...

Trailer Park Tornado Disaster + Saving Private Ryan explosion carnage all rolled into one...


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I'm going to toss in my guess, sticking with my theory of a return to Varisia at some point during the AP (for the magical 100th anniversary) - my theory being a Return to the Crimson Throne, and potential return of Kazavon (because shouldn't there be a big bad dragon for the 100th anniversary running amuck?).

So, AP starts in Taldor, city of Oppara, where some wizard has been mucking around with the Tailbones of Kazavon, and well, something starts to go wrong....

How's that for an off-the-wall guess? ;-p


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How about a pseudo GMPC?

Build a support character you think your group needs. Hand it to them. Tell them the character is just like a 3rd PC, but let both of the players help manage that character - giving them an opportunity to learn about another class without the burden being totally on one or another person. Have them take turns each session being the decision maker/die roller for the GMPC. Help them out a bit as needed, exerting a bit of GM persona as needed, but leave most of the decisions to the players.

Sort of like a common property cohort, in a way. Just don't let them turn the character into a sacrificial lamb in order to save their own hides, eg/ the wizard holds off the troll for a round or two while we run for our lives...

EDIT - read TacticsLion's two linky's above. He makes lots of good observations. If you are new to the game, you'll hear stories both good and bad about DMPC's. Try avoiding pitfalls that others have encountered, and you may have a better experience, as will your players. If you fall into one of the pitfalls - learn and move forward. You'll never know if you are good or bad with a GMPC unless you go down that road for yourself.


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A summooner and his abilities are intimately intertwined with his Eidolon. Your guy is just taking this both figuratively and literally. Weird? Probably. Evil? I'd go with no.

If it creeps you out, tell the *player* to tone it down, or boot him (I'm assuming you're the DM?). He isn't a regular, so why tolerate it? If it's not a big deal, roll with it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ask the question - where is the city's water supply coming from? Perhaps it's a river? Sure, they might have a wall over it, but underneath? Perhaps a portcullis/metal grate?

So - army infiltrates via Water Breathing (perhaps cast off of a few wands). A couple of Rusting Grasp spells quietly take out any hindrances under the water. If the blockages are stone, well, that's what stone shape or rock to mud can deal with.

Sneak in the entire army underneath the water. At night. Y'know, Pirates of the Caribbean style...(turning your army into undead is a matter of personal preference. I'd leave that part up to you.). Works great if the city is a coastal/port city too.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Get a flying ship (no, don't ask me how, I'm not the details guy...).
Arm troops with featherfall items.
Fly over city with flying boat under cover of darkness and air drop your army in paratroop/halo style - Death from Above!

Then ask yourself why you just didn't purchase a scroll with Teleportation Circle on it and teleport them into the city's central square in the first place. Heheh.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sneak up on the wall under cover of Deeper Darkness (Cleric 3). Neutralize guards w/sleep, etc. Cast Passwall (Wiz 5) on the wall. Or Rock to Mud (Wiz 5), though it's a bit more obvious. Walk through the hole in the wall into the city.

Do it at different points on the wall and hit the city simultaneously from multiple areas.

Lots of easy ways to defeat walls if you have some decent magical backing.

The Mansion idea won't work - the entrance doesn't move. It creates a doorway/portal. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mage-s-magnificent-mansion. Skull and Shackles note - the doorway doesn't move with a ship. So, pretty sure it ain't moving with a rock, either.


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Thomas Long 175 wrote:

Limited Miracle.

Sounds like the deity is recovering from a hangover from that winter solstice festival and just isn't performing up to snuff.

So, let's call it a domain spell for Cayden's followers, eh?


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Having played a few clerics, I'd have to say that at 7th level, barring any circumstantial specific reasons for taking a particular spell from the cleric/oracle 7th level spell list, I'd load up on nothing but Minor Miracles.

Access to 6th level cleric/oracle? Great - lots of useful spells there. Access to all others from 5th level/lower - awesome. Packing a couple of these around makes my cleric pretty much ready for almost anything and there is no great material component cost involved.
If the spell is so good that you'd take it in favor of almost all the other spells on the list for that level - it might have a balance issue.

Maybe that's why they left Miracle for the 17th level casters - and as a 9th level spell, there are other good contenders on the 9th level list. A 17th+ level cleric would probably keep at least one Miracle at the ready, but might also have Mass Heal or other spells prepped too.


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Greyhawk

(and all the old school modules that came with it - some of which have been Pathfinderized by some fine folks here on the message boards).


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The All Seeing Eye wrote:

3. You probably are done with the AP at this point. As written at the very least. Certain beats moving forward *might* happen but the narrative in those stories assume a certain level of mischief not something like this. I think you best contemplate considering how you can take what has been laid and looking with broader eyes at the world. Your players escalated things to another level so true challenges, at this point, will happen well outside what Kingmaker was originally calibrated to offer.

Oh I think the AP could still be a blast. But it will definitely have changed.

The big N is smart and powerful. Her erstwhile ally just got nuked, and she has to know that those sorts of things await her Bloom armies and her plans for the Stolen Lands. So, time to strike.

First, she ensures she's placed sleeper agents as "Joe Trooper" type guys in every PC army. Armed with a lead lined backpack and a 18th level Control Winds one shot item (Craft Wondrous) set to trigger instant Tornado. Those are really, really bad news - look up tornado under Environmental Effects.

Second, she places sleepers in every major town and city in the PC's Kingdom. Also equipped with the Control Winds nukes.

Then, she triggers her Blooms. PC's mobilize the armies which are promptly destroyed by the sleeper agents. The cities brace for catastrophe as the Bloom armies approach but then more Tornados wreck the cities. Loss of life will be massive. The Bloom armies then crash into the already mangled cities. The PC Kingdom is in shambles. They might counter nuke some Bloom armies, but it won't be enough - the Stolen Lands get stolen.

But, the AP continues. The PC's must rescue and restore their Kingdom and defeat the big N. Tell them all gloves are off - do what they can to end N and her armies of the First World. Let them run rampant. Try out their new and deadly ideas. It all happens off Golarion, which can be handy in a way. And maybe they end up winning too.

The Stolen Lands return to Golarion. Sure, they are a mangled wreck and the PC's get to retire and rebuild from the ruins. And Rulers near and far simply nod their heads sagely and say "THAT's why you don't go full retard with magical armageddon weaponry".

"The purpose of their lives was to serve as a warning to others..." can be on the monuments commemorating the PC's...


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Regardless of the other stuff - allowing Delayed Blast Fireball beads to be Teleported via Teleport Object is not a good precedent to set.

Consider - Pathfinder is the evolution of the 3.0/3.5 rule set. If we want to consider precedent from the past, consider that DBF beads were actually named specifically as an example of a magical force that the spell cannot teleport (quick Google search found that for me). However, Pathfinder dropped that little example in their spell description. Let's consider that they 1) thought that it was self evident that DBF beads were clearly magical forces, having been created by a magic spell, and thus have no need for being singled out or 2) they really approve of DBF beads being teleported around. Possibly a 3) it was an oversight that this bit of text was omitted eg/ they made a mistake. I'll go with 1) or 3), frankly.

But, lets say you really like 2). That's ok - everyone's campaign can be whatever they want it to be, rule zero being what it is. So, for those creative players, consider this: Other high level wizards aren't dumb. The PC's shouldn't have been the first to figure this one out, and even if they were, they won't be the last (anything otherwise simply defies all logic). Ask your players how much they want to be on the receiving end of this Scry and Fry tactic. If you let it stand, let them have this instance of a freebie, but after that, word gets out and THEIR enemies might do the same to them, or their followers, or their structures/buildings, etc. They have a Kingdom, and that means loads of vulnerable targets that can be DBF'd and bombed out of existence just as easily.

When the players get cute with the rules, I always ask them - do you want my NPC's to use the same tactics on you? Because my NPC's will. Don't expect to get a free pass on logical repercussions of what you've just done. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.


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I think a lot of this needs a retcon, as mentioned earlier.

1. Teleporting into thin air, wrong.
2. Teleporting a bunch (8 !!) of Delayed Blast Fireball beads? Only if he went with them. Note - Teleport Object clearly stats you can't teleport magical forces - which is exactly what a DBF bead is. So, total fail on the rules there.
3. Originally mentioned 8 DBF's cast? How, with Time Stop? Max delay is 5 rounds. By the time Mr.Wizard is casting #6, the first one should be going off, right? Another fail on rules, it looks like to me. At least as described by the OP.
4. The major creation stuff - are you serious? Lets say 10 castings at max 20th level. You get 20 cubic feet per casting. That's 200 cubic feet of gold. Or, in practical terms, a 10x10 foot slab of gold only 2 feet high. Gold is 1204 lbs/cubic foot - so, you have a bomb of about 120 tons. Not bad. But, terminal velocity is far, FAR from the impact speeds of a meteor - which tend to begin at 11 km/s. That's PER SECOND. Terminal velocity is about 56 m/s, sayeth Wikipedia. I suggest you see the following website: http://www.purdue.edu/impactearth/ I dropped a 3m Iron Bomb at orbital velocity of 11 km/s (your gold bomb is exponentially much, much slower) and put my distance from impact as 1 km. Guess what? Little seismic, air pressure nothing more than loud traffic, etc. Allowing this to nuke a city is ridiculous. You've now got a real world physics fails compounding the RAW fail.

I'll give your guys 10/10 for creativity, but 0/10 for actually satisfying RAW (we won't even talk about RAI). I don't think the "real world" calculations for your bomb are even remotely close to reality either.

However, I'd say that Gold Bomb would do major destructive damage to a castle - that would be entirely fair. I wouldn't want to be too close to it when it hit, either. Probably lots of flying stone shrapnel, etc. You could still pull that one off with some tweaks - for example, create those 200 cubic foot of gold on a Treasure Stitched item - then FLY above the castle and release the treasure. That might work just fine.


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I'm going to guess (or campaign for...)

Return of the Crimson Throne! Or some variation thereof to bring that classic out of 3.5 to current levels. It's been a few AP's now that we've been away from Varisia, hasn't it? For AP #100 it would be a nice touch to return there...


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Turn into a tapeworm.

Sure your exit "strategy" might be a tad unpleasant, but I'm sure trolls have all sorts of intestinal parasites that they never even give a second glance at...y'know after they've done their "business".


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Well, lets try a cheap security measure for starters - Arcane Mark. It's permanent. It costs nothing in material components. It's easy to do because it's a cantrip! Why is it so good?

You make the mark invisible. If it gets hit with a Detect Magic - it glows and becomes visible - a clear sign to any guard that someone is doing some preliminary recon divinations on the prison. You can cast a Detect Magic through a Scry sensor (5% chance of success/level) but even that should still light up an invisible Arcane Mark.

So, you riddle your dungeon/prison with these things. If one lights up - trouble might be on it's way! A sure fire alert for the guards that something is amiss (or about to be). And it's pretty much a freebie given that it's a cantrip.

I'll typically have my smarter NPC's have a ring or something similarly innocuous Arcane Marked in such a way that if it glows, only they are likely to see it. Serves as an alert that someone is pinging them with a Detect Magic (and it's time to be on your guard).


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Seconds on using the Feather Token - Oak. Although in one game (where the industrial revolution was kicking in and trains/railways were running) I thought about using a couple to derail a train...planting it in the track just enough ahead of the train that there was no way it could stop...then the entire item got banned outright, heheh. Also great for decorating your city when you don't want to wait decades for nice big trees to grow along your boulevard.

Feather Token - Anchor. A key (and cheap) component in my "destroy the navy" strategy. Invisible flying spellcaster flies over and lands on a ship and triggers it. Ship grinds to a halt for no apparent reason. While the crew starts wondering what's going on, spellcaster flies up a couple hundred feet and opens up his Treasure Stitched piece of cloth, triggering the command word...

Which then releases a 9x9x9 piece of stone (read 50 ton block of doom) to plummet onto the stationary ship below.

For a relatively cheap investment, you can "Pearl Harbor" an entire fleet.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sounds like you really want to do a Way of the Wicked campaign. Which, incidentally, is very well reviewed. Covers all the wonderfully evil things your group might want to do.

Having read it, I would highly recommend it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sounds like it's a bit old school - the DM has to do some work integrating the dungeon into his/her campaign world. Nothing wrong with that, unless you've never ever done it - then you might find yourself at a bit of a loss.

I'm awaiting my copy (just recently ordered). So, what will I do with it?

Well, first I'll read it through see what the various challenges are, etc. Then, I'll see where in my campaign would make a good location to place the dungeon, preferably near where my PC's are active (if they aren't actively working through an Adventure Path).

After that, use NPC's, found maps, and other plot hooks to get them to start investigating the level(s) of the dungeon. Use those quests, factions, etc to build some backstory to the dungeon and the surrounding area where I've placed it.

You might find a read through Ultimate Campaign to be helpful.


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James Jacobs wrote:
Dracovar wrote:
I'd love to see a kind of "Against the Giants" style AP for Pathfinder / Golarion. Back in the "good ol days" beating up giants was one of our favorite things to do. Getting beat up by the giants, not so much (that happened too).
As it turns out, we'd love to see that too.

Excellent. Shaddup and take my money. Again. <grin>


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I'll take 300K in simulacrums of really useful monsters, decoys of myself, etc, etc, over a golem any day of the week.


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I'd love to see a kind of "Against the Giants" style AP for Pathfinder / Golarion. Back in the "good ol days" beating up giants was one of our favorite things to do. Getting beat up by the giants, not so much (that happened too).

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