"Seriously, guys, please stop asking for other compilations. It's not going to happen, and I don't want people who don't read carefully thinking it's likely to happen.
One of the main reasons for not doing this one is that just having the notion out there that we *might* do this for other APs is harmful. I'd really appreciate it if everybody would help squash that idea whenever and wherever it is raised.
This is a unique circumstance."
Lol - in other words:
"Seriously guys, as paying customers and the very lifeblood of everything we do here at Paizo, stop asking for things you'd like to buy. "
Alright after looking at him I'd suggest you focus on acquiring magical items that boost touch AC. Ring of Deflection and anything granting a dodge bonus will help here. Other than that he's a pretty solid guy. Get adamantine full plate when you can, maybe with a permanent effotless armor cast on it. Shame your DR doesn't stack with Stalwart, otherwise you could really give the Invulnerable Rager barbarian builds a run for their money.
Doesn't stalwart specifically call out that it stacks with class abilities that give DR?
Huh, you're right. This suddenly makes the armormaster more viable. Good call.
Armor Master specifically says that it's DR doesn't stack with other sources of DR, so it looks like Stalwart is out. The class feature's language takes precedence.
Actually, at best I'd call that an FAQ. The rule is that the more specific rule takes precedence. You have a feat that specifies that it gives DR that stacks with all class features, while you have a class feature that states that it doesn't get DR from other sources.
I'm calling an FAQ.
You're free to do as you like but I can tell you that I'm 100% correct on this. The thing being affected always take precedence over the thing doing the affecting.
Think of it as a wants to vs. a can thing - Stalwart 'wants' to stack with Armor Master but Armor says it can't. Case closed.
Alright after looking at him I'd suggest you focus on acquiring magical items that boost touch AC. Ring of Deflection and anything granting a dodge bonus will help here. Other than that he's a pretty solid guy. Get adamantine full plate when you can, maybe with a permanent effotless armor cast on it. Shame your DR doesn't stack with Stalwart, otherwise you could really give the Invulnerable Rager barbarian builds a run for their money.
Doesn't stalwart specifically call out that it stacks with class abilities that give DR?
Huh, you're right. This suddenly makes the armormaster more viable. Good call.
Armor Master specifically says that it's DR doesn't stack with other sources of DR, so it looks like Stalwart is out. The class feature's language takes precedence.
Combat Expertise will give you -3 to hit with Threatening Defender. Full BAB builds don't need anything to make up for Power Attack as they will hit regardless. As far as your capstone, do you really think you're going to be doing THAT much level 20 play?
At 12th level with the dip and Threatening Defender, Improved Stalwart will give you +8 DR for -3 attack and that DR stacks with Invul Rager. No fighting defensively or standard actions about it.
Its a balancing act sure, but Wiggz does it better than anyone i've seen. Definitely something to think about.
I keep looking at this and wondering if it's better to just go straight Fighter.
The real draw for the archetype is the level 9 ability, Doublestrike. It's a standard action to attack once with each weapon.
Sounds nice, but as a standard action you'll probably only use this while you're moving during the round. Plus, since you're by definition not full attacking while you use this ability, you don't get the benefit of Defensive Flurry (AC bonuses) or Twin Blades (your substitute for Weapon Training, basically - bonuses to attack & damage). Seems like it's not especially worth it, but maybe I'm wrong?
For a two-weapon fighter I always recommend weapon master and the use of two similar light weapons so all your feats universally apply. Weapon dice damage pale in comparison to static bonuses, especially with a high crit weapon like kukri's.
By 13th level Bards can begin a Bardic performance as a swift action and presumably end one as a free action - so what about Inspire Greatness? It grants 2 HD and temporary hit points to go with it. Could a bard end and begin Inspire Greatness every round on his turn to 'refresh' those temporary hit points?
We are just now wrapping up Kingmaker - we loved the sandboxy nature of it and the flexibility I had as a GM in changing events around and adding my own stuff. Great fun.
So which AP have been your favorite? I have to rule out Rise of the Rune Lords, Kingmaker obviously, Carrion Crown (playing it) and Council of Thieves (played it).
That leaves:
Curse of Crimson Throne
Second Darkness
Legacy of Fire
Serpent's Skull
Jade Regent (player has expressed interest in this one)
Skull and Shackles
Shattered Star
Reign of War
Wrath of the Righteous
Skull and Shackles, absolutely. So much you can do with it outside the AP if so inclined. Wish we had used a slower progression so we could have enjoyed it even longer.
A character with a bonded item like a weapon or ring to enchant that item as if it were a wand? Same triggers, same actions to use, same costs - with perhaps the caveat that only the bonder can use the item as a wand.
Ok guys after some careful thought & research. These are the options that interest me the most for this type of campaign.
Aquatic Druid/Savage Skald w/ Barbarian dip or a Dwarven Inquisitor.
Which 1 of these do you think would have the best success rate?
And also with the Dwarven Inquisitor I'm having a hard time deciding if melee or taking a dip in Gunslinger is the way to go. What do you guys think?
The thought of taking the dip in Gunslinger is intriguing for the inquisitor. I was thinking about making Yosemite Sam. He would fit this bill! LOL.
Even if I take Rapid Reload I can't reload both guns @ the same time?
With regards to Domain, the Madness domain features one of the best buffs/debuffs in the game in Visions of Madness and their Aura is pretty potent too.
Inquisitor of Besmara just reeks of thematic coolness...I doubt you're ever going to see this sort of opportunity to play a character that's such a perfect match again...assuming that's what you'd enjoy playing. I wonder how an Oracle that draws from Besmara would work out? Sea Witch would rock hard, too.
Of course, if you just want to be a swashbuckler...that's a Rogue archetype...and not really that bad, in practice.
The Inquisitor would make sense thematically, with his/her destiny gradually revealed to keep the Shackles from falling under Chellish control and one of the largest regions of piracy eradicated.
Would it be generally agrees that the Azata's favored class option would allow the uses per round to accrue at 1.5x the normal rate (i.e. 9 uses per round at 6th level)? I assume the Azata can select a bardic performance he doesn't yet have for the bonus.
Some good advice there. A few things to consider - the Vision of Madness power is going to be used with this build a LOT, meaning that 1) I'll have to get within reach range fairly often anyway and 2) at middle to higher levels I won't need the Focus feats since I'll be flooring saves anyway.
Based on the advice above, I'm looking at this feat selection now:
I'm also considering taking a level of Wizard at perhaps 9th level or so to get access to first level Wizard spells (I can envision this character using a lot of wands), the Scribe Scroll feat and perhaps a Greensting Scorpion (or some theme-appropriate version) familiar. The higher Initiative is going to be particularly valuable for me because in the opening round of combat I would like to be able to get Inspire Courage up and running and perhaps land a Vision of Madness buff or debuff before anyone else moves.
Update: Okay, After a bit of re-education, I've changed the build somewhat. My reduced Channel Energy will be used only for 'maintenance' healing at the end of the day and I won't be taking any feats to modify it. Instead, I'm going to focus more on my spellcasting, in particular increasing the DC's of Necromancy and Enchantment spells as those two schools seem the best suited for spell selection by a mentally unbalanced dwarf convinced of the end of the world. As an Evangelist I'll get enchantment spells that can be cast spontaneously and spells like Doom, Aura of Doom and Blindness/Deafness will all benefit from the boost to necromancy. Combined with Visions of Madness there should be some pretty nice save or suck options in the middle to higher levels.
I also made some choices to give his limited skills at least a niche of usefulness.
New build:
Dwarven 20th level Evangelist (Madness Domain) Dwarven favored class option, Deep Warrior
Attributes:(20 point buy)
STR - 10
DEX - 14
CON - 14 (+2 racial modifier)
INT - 12
WIS - 16 (+2 racial modifier, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th & 20th)
CHA - 8 (-2 racial modifier)
Traits:
Glory of Old (+1 saves vs. Spells, Spell-like Abilities & Poison)
Militant Merchant (+1 Perception, Perception is class skill)
Dumb question, I know, but I haven't run a Cleric once during my entire time playing Pathfinder nor ever played alongside one. The answer, I assume, will also apply to Spell Penetration feats and Crafting feats as well.
So in the near future, I will be participating in a pirate campaign. I'm trying to figure out what would be the best class that would be of the most benefit to everyone.
My initial thought was to play an archer ranger. It's still on the table.
My list of options are this as of right now; Hobgoblin Archer Ranger, Undine Druid Adept, or the class that I've been reading about that seems to have had a high success rate in pirate campaigns, the Master Summoner.
I was reading up on Saph's guide on summoners in www.giantitip.com. From what I gather of what he had said in that guide for a race to choose for a summoner in an aquatic campaign are of these choices; half elf/gillman/ifrit, fletching.
And out of those choices either the Riverfolk Gillman or the half elf are the prime choices. Riverfolk Gillman for obvious reasons and the half elf to qualify for the eldritch heritage feat.
Also, from what I've been reading about Master Summoners in an aquatic campaign that the general census in what people do that is effective is their eidelon is a skill monkey instead of having an eidelon made for destruction. Instead, they use their summons to do that.
So I open up the discussion for everyone else to please give me good feedback so that I can make a concrete decision going forward. I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks!
We just finished the Skull n Shackles AP (best campaign ever) with a four man party - a Human Sea Singer Bard, a Human Barbarian, an Elven Rogue and a Half-Elven Master Summoner. Each fulfilled a valuable role and each had their moments to shine, but the Master summoner was really crucial to our success.
He built his eidolon as a small scout-type with high perception, stealth, the ability to swim and breathe underwater as well as the ability to fly. That let it scout out locations ahead of us in underwater caves, fly off scouting for ships to raid, swim under the boat to keep an eye out for dangerous reefs or other threats - its ability to see in the dark and communicate telepathically back to the Master Summoner (our pilot) was utterly invaluable.
When combat came the eidolon was always quickly dismissed. The MS focused purely on summoning elementals (for RP purposes) and had some truly memorably moments... from being able to summon water elementals during sea and underwater battles (very useful is using standard underwater combat rules) to air elementals used to run down ships and foul rigging & sails to the time he summoned an entire horde of hastened earth elementals to take a keep (at 7th level), having them earthglide through the ground and stone walls to massacre the defenders within while - I kid you not - our captain sat just out of bowshot beneath an umbrella and sipped brandy awaiting their surrender.
A well-built, well-played Master Summoner is a huge boon to any party in my opinion - the reason why you would want to go Half-Elf is more for the favored racial option that gives you bonus evolution points than anything else (though the Eldritch Heritage line is very useful for the class).
As an aside, we tried to avoid things like Gillmen or other exotic races that were too ideally suited to aquatic campaigns... just felt like we would be cheating both the adventure and ourselves by using the RPG version of cheat codes.
Nobody in our group ever plays a Cleric - for some reason the general mechanics and feel of them doesn't appeal to anyone. I've finally decided to throw my hat in the ring and take a break from the usual bad@ss melee types I tend to play.
My vision is a Dwarf who delved too deep in his youth and was captured for a time by the abominations that dwell below... he escaped, his sanity already tweaked by what he had witnessed and fled as long and far as he could from his captors, eventually escaping into the world above witnessing for the first time the night sky - endless, boundless, infinite and filled with stars staring down at him. It broke a part of the agoraphobic dwarf's mind, trapped between the madness below and the infinite above, and he has become convinced of the inevitable end of everything at the hands of this alien presence.
Technically he's a Cleric of Azathoth, though he is less a follower of the Old One and more a herald of his arrival and eventual dominion, devoted to staving off that eventuality but deep down convinced that its inevitable. He's going to be twisted, kind of off-his-rocker and will be played as both tragic and comic at times, given to disturbing mutterings and unerving speeches at the most inopportune times - kind of a 'Rasputin the Mad Dwarf', so to speak.
So I'm going Dwarf, obviously, and Evangelist with the Madness Domain selected. He'll take the Deep Warrior racial option for flavor though I don't view him as a combatant - he just doesn't have the feats to be an effective one I don't think. He'll also take the favored class option to make full use of that excellent Madness Domain 1st level granted power as both a buff and debuff in and out of combat. I think I've got a handle on how I want to distribute his attribute points though I'm not married to it - what I'm trying to figure out is his feat selection.
The character is probably going to play as a pure support type, using Vision of Madness, Aura of Madness, spells and Sermonic Performance to buff/debuff and then his healing ability between battles more often than not. I'm not sure where to go with feats beyond Lingering Performance and Discordant Voice (which fits the concept perfectly) - he's going to have a very high Wisdom but a very low Charisma so I'm thinking about loading up on Channelling feats, particularly Extra Channel... but with the Evangelist's already reduced Channelling ability, I'm wondering if that's an efficient use of the character's relatively few feats.
Here's what I'm thinking, but I'm not sure its the way to go. Any advice would be most welcome (on feat selection or any other aspect of the character).
Traits:
Glory of Old
Exalted of the Society
Feats:
1st - Lingering Performance
3rd - Extra Channel
5th - Extra Channel
7th - Extra Channel
9th - Selective Channel
11th - Discordant Voice
13th - Quicken Spell
15th - Extra Channel
17th - Extra Channel
19th - Extra Channel
A better explanation would be how few foes actually rely on artificial weapons, especially at later level. A two- handed fighter is better off spending his actions killing his foes.
I would think it would work with any weapon, but a looking at the build, a Bardiche or a Falchion would definitely be my recommendation... which should be okay since a Bardiche is essentially a giant axe on a long handle and a Falchion is basically a two-handed sword. Your weapon can look like anything thematically but mechanically you'd be better off with the suggested weapons.
I've been in a position as a player that my character build didn't work because it was a low-magic, low-treasure setting and I didn't know that at the beginning. The master summoner, meanwhile, is out there kicking ass because his character doesn't need treasure. My character is useless.
I really liked him. I mean I really liked him. He died. But I liked him anyway and I worked with my dm to create a quest that would help bring him back. Quest completed... then he died again. And he very nearly died yet again.
End result: In pure frustration I retired that character and brought in a new one optimized for a low-treasure setting. The campaign ended prematurely 1 session later.
Seems like the moral of the story is not to make characters who can not survive without the GM handing out items to cover their weaknesses.
Okay, the DM just said this is going to be a dungeon crawl...so i guess stuff like bluff and disguise won't be that useful.
You might want to steer away from enchanter-type caster altogether then. Some much better options out there for a dungeon crawl. Charm Person loses a lot of its effectiveness when there aren't any... persons... to be charmed.
I'm trying to build a boxer/brawler type character for a friends upcoming game. Fights for money in underground rings, no rules, bare knuckle stuff.
I've got race down, Half-Orc, and originally I was just going to go with Monk, Martial Artist, but I've been looking around at Fighter and Barbarian and it seems like they might be good options too. Any ideas on if I should just go with straight Monk, or if I should mix together a few things.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Here you go. The build is Human rather than Half-Orc but its a very detailed and extremely potent unarmed melee character.
You know that Oracle Channel doesn't stack with Paladin channel?
I'm not convinced about the value of Life Link- seems that as levels get higher that five points would get less and less useful.
I'm thinking of it as fast healing 5 for as many party members need it. Fey heritage means that out of combat healing is more efficiently used by first transferring everyone else's damage to me, and on combat a paladin is damned hard to kill unless he's prevented from acting. Spells do a better job at transferring damage but are a much more limited resource and have durations.
Path of vengeance means no paladin channelling to begin with.
Cha to AC is very nice, but having a great AC just encourages enemies to target squishies instead.
Generally speaking, foes target the biggest threats, not necessarily the softest targets.
I never understand this board obsession with summoning. It slows the game down so much. It also taxes the dm when you summon a bunch of creatures to do your bidding.
Yes, but used well, it can be one of the most powerful tools a spellcaster has. Sure, there are other options that are good too, but asking a caster to forego one of his best tools because it slows the game down is like asking him to deliberately be weaker than he has to be.
Swinging a weapon slows the game down too. After all, if those fighters just stand there they can really fly through their actions when it's their turn. Would you ask fighters not to do swing weapons so the game can go faster? Of course not.
I'm thinking of making a support character for a somewhat caster heavy group, and was wondering what I should use for it. Lowering saving throws seemed like the most logical decision to go with, but I'm not really sure what sort of effective debuffs can be reliably applied.
Currently I know of:
Demoralise for -2
Sicken for -2 (via a cruel weapon eventually to be picked up)
are there any other large scale saving throw reducing effects or items?
Highly, highly recommend an Elven Void Mage with the favored class option.
First off, no - your brain doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Next, I find it helpful if you look at an AP as a stArting off point. As what you could run if you wanted to, but with the pieces there for so much more. Remember when you were a kid and you bought a Legos pack that had a specific thing on the front that you had the pieces to build? It was cool and all and might present a challenge for all of an hour but what really mattered was 1) the ideas it inspired and 2) the fact that you had new peices to add to your collection - or new peices you could add your collection to. That's how I tend to view AP's. As structured inspiration and a wealth of tools.
You're running 20th level characters through an AP? Or you're running these characters starting at 1st level and hoping they live long enough to reach 20th level?
Probably the latter. People who pre-plan builds usually do it all the way, regardless of how high they eventually get.
The spellbinder wizard spends a full round action to change a spell and then another standard action to cast it, is that what I am reading? I do like the void domain however, in another setting I will definitely be using that for sure. Having already played CC, I will avoid enchantment and illusion spells, some necromancy will be good, I mean how can you not take enervation!?
The magus was a thought I had as well, but it seems predicated on crits, which a lot of the monsters will be immune to. Is there a way to do good damage without crits?
Spells chosen by the spellbinder usually aren't combat spells but rather useful things you know you're going to need eventually but don't want to burn prepared slots for - like Teleport or Tongues.
time allow haste - the best buff in the game for mid levels.
The "agility" patron also grants haste, along with freedom of movement, mass cat's grace, polymorph and ethereal jaunt. I decided for my witch I liked that better than the "time" set, although disintegrate will be missed. Teleport (from "time") is a witch spell already.
Hmmmm... I'm thinking about teaming this girl up with a Master Summoner who specializes in Elementals so that's worth considering. Disinetegrate would be difficult to give up though.
I think it would have been better if all Patron spells had been spells absent from the Witch list - makes the customization seem a little pointless otherwise.
time allow haste - the best buff in the game for mid levels.
Its pretty rare that I'm on a team that doesn't already have a designated 'Haste-caster', but I suspect I'll make pretty good use of Silence, Teleport, Disentegrate, Expend and Time Stop while Threefold Aspect is flavoricious. I wonder if you can lay Hexes on foes while under the effects of Timestop... probably not, eh?
In retrospect, I'm definitely going with the Time Patron. The spells are better across the board in my opinion, and it will fit well with the theme of knowing when one's time has come, or when its 'not one's time yet'...
Alright, so given the advice I've recieved on the board thus far, I'm thinking about re-arranging things as shown below. I'm still really torn about giving up my healing early on - I had visions of roaming a village in ruins or a battlefield sorely won and healing person after person - but ah, well. Best laid plans and all that.
After tweaking my skills a little bit to better reflect my needs, this is what I'm thinking:
Also on the subject of race changes.. Take a look at the Half-Orc Scarred Witch Doctor.. Its prob the best witch archetype out there atm..
Its my understanding that there technically is no 'Half-Orc Scarred Witch Doctor', only the Orc version... but in truth, it doesn't really jive with my concept anyway, but thanks for the suggestion.
I'm currently thinking about dumping the item creation feats - exchanging Craft Wand with Extra Hex: Flight @ 5th, Extra Hex: Cauldron with Threnodic Spell @ 15th (nice fit thematically) and perhaps the Fortune Hex at 16th instead of Witch's Brew.
Damon Griffon - I'm not trying to be the party's primary healer and certainly not a combat healer, but I'd prefer to use hexes in place of spells whenever I can freeing those slots up for actual in-combat effects. From what I can see, taking the healing Hex @ 2nd and the Major Healing Hex @ 10th will result in the following healing benefits:
@ 1st level - 1d8+1 for every party member each day
@ 5th level - 2d8+5 for every party member each day
@ 10th level - 2d8+10 and 3d8+10 for every party member each day
@ 15th level - 2d8+10 and 4d8+15 for every party member each day
That's all pretty much free healing that doesn't eat up any spell slots, and collectively seems ideal for a secondary healing role to me.
As far as the Evil Eye Hex, Misfortune seems far superior to me (as does Slumber) in the early going because forcing a re-roll on saves, attack rolls, etc. will likely net you a much greater benefit than -2 and affects more than one stat with a single application. Things get a little closer by 8th when the Evil Eye benefit increases to -4 and I like the fact that you can layer it so I consider it a definite take there.
Since it looks like I'm going to be taking Quicken Spell and Threnodic Spell, I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't try to work Spell Perfection in there, pehaps for Suffocation... a Quickened Suffocate with a +4 DC and +8 against SR would work nicely after applying a -4 save via Evil Eye.
Can someone clarify whether or not Split Hex or Split Major Hex requires you to specify a particular Hex or if it can be used with any hexes you have that target a single foe...?
The player running the Witch is running an illegal, impossible character, plain and simple. He's either doing it because 1) he got sincerely confused regarding the rules or 2) he's choosing to deliberately take advantage of your relative inexperience. Personally I suspect the latter but I don't know the guy so I won't make judgements... the good news is that in either case its the easiest fix in the world - audit his character sheet. Calculate his saves, his hit points and the DC on his spells. Make him show you the rules that say he can do the things he's trying to do (I assure you he won't be able to) and make him write down his spells each day and cross them off when he casts them.
Its your responsibility as a GM to the rest of the group to make sure this guy is playing by the same rules that they and the foes they fight are.
Alright, I finally put together the Witch build I've been working on - its a class I have absolutely zero experience with, but I'm really excited about some of its possibilities.
The concept is a Lawful Neutral or a Neutral Good character, one for whom death is neither a thing to be feared nor evil in and of itself. Rather, it is a part of the natural order top be embraced when the time comes. The character also recognizes the cruel injustice of a life made harder than it should be through suffering inflicted by others or - even worse - cut tragically short before their time. That's a large part of her motivation for adventuring, to alleviate suffering when possible, ease that suffering when its not, and to prevent those whom would end life before its time from doing so by taking the lives they have in forfeit. She has no tolerance for those without respect for life, and just as little tolerance for those who have no respect for death as she finds the undead an abomination of both life AND death.
Mechanically its probably not very groundbreaking - she'll carry a scythe on her back who's literal sole purpose is killing those foes she has rendered helpless, usually through her sleep hex. By my calculations burning a feat on power attack or Arcane Strike would be unnecessary for those purposes, but if someone feels otherwise please let me know. Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus will be taken in Necromancy to maximize the effectivenss of spells like Blindness, Bestow Curse, Suffocate, etc. She'll play as a battlefield controller and part-time healer with compassion for life but no compunction whatsoever about killing those who's time has come. Her familiar will manifest as a scorpion, and her communion with it will educate her as to the nature of life, death, magic, nature and the harmonious secrets of the universe. I'm trying to decide on a Death or Healing (Life) Patron at the moment, thinking that if I take Death I'll eventually take the Life-Giver Hex and if I go with healing I'll eventually take the Death Hex. The Summon Spirit Hex at higher levels would be used to summon some sort of avatar of death as she and it grow ever-more intimate.
I figure taking Craft Wand will be useful for ubiquitous low-level spells like Cure Light Wounds, Enlarge Person and False Life while the eventual Cauldron/Witch's Brew hexes should keep us well-stocked in potions at the higher levels. Of all my hexes, those potion-brewing ones are the ones I'm most unsure of - we rarely play into the higher levels and even more rarely have access to magic items on-demand. Saves should be solid, as should hit points with a decent Constitution and eventual Toughness, Initiative should be high from the get go... any thoughts are welcome.
Witch build:
Spoiler:
Human 20th level Witch (Death or Healing Patron)
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 12
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th)
WIS - 12
CHA - 7 (+1 @ 20th)
IT IS AMAZING AND A TOTALLY UNDERRATED MULTICLASS.
It is the ultimate support class.
Start with a level in bard and then go cleric. Take levels like this
B/C/B/C/B/C/B/C/B/C..... level 20th.
For stats:
Bard spells goes on charisma and cleric channeling
Cleric spells goes on wisdom
Your stats should be priorited like this:
cha
wis
con
dex
int
str
If you want to be debuffing with your cleric spells a higher wisdom is a very smart choise.
I played though whole Crimson Throne AP with this support guy in my party. He was the best friend an adventurer could have.
Trust me. I can describe it in more details with feats and such if anyone wants.
I'm interested in this. I want to play a pure support bard, and multiclassing into cleric could be pretty cool. I want all the details :D
That is a terrible idea. I have to ask what do want to do in the game?
Mainly just roleplay a bard. I'm not very interested in combat. So I feel like I should be able to support my team without actually having to attack much. multiclassing in to cleric could be a good way to do that.
A Cleric can support a party very well and a Bard can support a party very well - but a Cleric/Bard would suffer.
First off, you're way too MAD with one class casting off of Wisdom while another class casts off of Charisma. If you were going to multi-class, you'd be better off going Bard/Sorcerer or Bard/Oracle (Charisma) instead. Also, there is a fair bit of overlap between the Cleric's spells and the Bard's spells, especially when it comes to healing. The big thing though is that you will severly retard the rate at which you gain higher level spells - you don't want to be spamming Cure Light Wounds when you're fighting high level monsters, after all.
We had a non-combatant Bard once, a Lotus Geisha, who served the roles of healer, buffer and face superbly well, freeing up the other classes to mix it up... another relatively non-combatant Bard we had went Archeologist (think Rogue without the sneak attack) who became the trap-detector extraordinare but we didn't gain the benefit of performance.
From what you're saying, I'd suggest you maybe pick a single Oracle mystery you really like and take a level in Oracle to pick it up along with a few spells and then go all Bard. Along the way, take the Eldritch Heritage feats for the Arcane Bloodline to expand your spell-casting a bit. Go Human to make the most out of your skills via Focused Study and an expanded spell knowledge. Poke around in the archetypes to see what appeals to you - the trick as a Bard, since they don't gain spells in the volume a full caster would - is to figure out what you're doing when you're not casting spells and you're not fighting. There are some good options out there.
You could also make a pretty good healing/buffing/debuffing Witch without engaging in combat as well.
I'd be happy to help you put something together if you like.
You should look into the Arcane Duelist archetype, since it is a better combatant than the standard bard and you can cast in heavy armor (eventually).
I've got a nice Arcane Duelist build that takes the Eldritch Heritage feats for Arcane Bloodline and two Arcane Bonded items... two extra spells a day and an expanded spell list from the human favored class option makes him both a more effective melee combatant than most Bards AND a more effective caster as well.
IT IS AMAZING AND A TOTALLY UNDERRATED MULTICLASS.
It is the ultimate support class.
Start with a level in bard and then go cleric. Take levels like this
B/C/B/C/B/C/B/C/B/C..... level 20th.
For stats:
Bard spells goes on charisma and cleric channeling
Cleric spells goes on wisdom
Your stats should be priorited like this:
cha
wis
con
dex
int
str
If you want to be debuffing with your cleric spells a higher wisdom is a very smart choise.
I played though whole Crimson Throne AP with this support guy in my party. He was the best friend an adventurer could have.
Trust me. I can describe it in more details with feats and such if anyone wants.
I'm interested in this. I want to play a pure support bard, and multiclassing into cleric could be pretty cool. I want all the details :D
I would highly, highly recommend against what's proposed in this post...
P.S. Hi Damocles! I didn't see you at DunDraCon, I was all ready to call you a munchkin.
Pffffffffffffffffffffffffft!
I ain't no munchkin. I believe in coming up witha great character concept and backstory and then doing everything you can to make your character as effective as possible within the framework of that concept. Can I help it if I'm so good at making builds? :-P
Seriously though, I keep meaning to set up a folio of my favorite builds, just the top couple dozen across all races and classes... maybe via Google docs or something so they can be linked here.
I wish I could have made DunDra Con - any Con, really. Situated here in southern Louisiana I'm really in the armpit, the black hole if you will of RPgaming. I mean really, Arkansas to the north, Mississippi to the East and a vast expane of Texas landscape to the west... so sad.
I heard sword and board pallies tend to get ignored by DMs in combat if your AC is too high. With LoH you can afford a little lower AC and make yourself a bigger threat with a two hander. I took Die Hard and endurance with my pally since we don't have a combat healer so if I get critted, I can stay up and swift action LoH myself.
Consider grabbing a Heroic Defiance or two and freeing up those feat slots - it grants a use of LoH as an immediate action.
I have both GM'ed the whole campaign and played though it.
Getting darkvision is VERY very very smart.
I would say that the best choises for this AP is:
Wizard, cleric, paladin and ranger.
Quick question...Could it possibly be better to be a Beastmaster Ranger (Human) and use an animal companion as my Scout...and make them have Darkvision?
Edit: I see there are no darkvision companions...but there are blindsense ones at 7th. These however are too large for scouting...
Heh - dip a level of Sunmoner. Customizable scout eidolon with dark vision AND the ability to communicate telepathically.
holy warrior of light gives up spellcasting, so all the spells he gets comes from oracle
and he's a potent secondary healer anyway, as well as being a good party face anyway, your build does nothing to change that from any other paladin
not that extra lay on hands is bad, i like it, but i think that much of it is overkill and a waste of feats and resources
unsanctioned knowledge grants access to Haste, which is arguably better than blessing if only for the duration being in minutes rather than rounds, it also gives access to divine power, and blur or displacement
im always a fan of the feat antagonize for paladins since you draw the attention to yourself so you can tank more and tank better
radiant charge is also a poor choice since the player cannot choose to allocate all those loh uses, making taking all that extra loh that much more useless since all of his feats then become worthless on one attack that probly would have killed the thing anyway with less loh invested, its very counter-intuitive
personally, radiant charge builds are better for lancers and channelers, since taking extra channeling gives you a separate pool of uses for heals, it also means you cant do it with oath of vengeance
Okay, first off I never said anything about Holy Warrior of Light anywhere in my post. Secondly, Paladins are NOT qualiuty secondary healers on their own as their spells are used otherwise and they don't get enough LoH's to keep themselves alive if tanking AND heal their allies. Sorry, but I'm always going to consider someone with 20+ LoH's to be a better secondary healer than someone with less than a dozen.
As far as 'that much of it' - what are you using Lay on Hands for in this build?
Swift action self-heals in combat
After combat secondary heals
Condition removal
Healing poison, curing disease and removing curses
Gaining Extra Smites
Granting your entire party a Smite-like ability
Using them as a targeted Dimensional Anchor against evil outsiders
...that's a LOT of uses, a lot of versatility from just a single feat. You're not getting extra uses of Lay on Hands with those feats, you're getting extra uses of an entire host of abilities, some offensive, some defensive and some utilitarian based on what you need from fight to fight and campaign to campaing. That makes it about as efficient and versatile a use of feats as there is in the game if you actually pay attention to everything you can do.
Unsanctioned Knowledge in order to take Haste is a waste in my opinion as I've never been on a party that relied on its Paladin to cast Haste - let one of your actual casters (Wizard, Bard, Sorcerer, Summoner, etc.) do that. Moreover, Unsanctioned Knowledge requires a higher Intelligence score which takes a MAD character and makes him even moreso.
There are far better ways to protect your allies than burning a feat for Antagonize, some of which I've already illuminated - have you ever looked at the feat's inherent limitations?
Radiant Charge is optional and comes at the very end of the build - kind of like a pocket nuke should you ever need it. Lots of options for the 19th level feat out there if you ever even get the character that high - hardly an integral part of the build...
...but then, I thought we were discussing how my build was nothing more than a 'beatstick' and 'one of the worst ways to play a Paladin'... still waiting for an explanation on that considering all of the things I've pointed out.
She has an additional 5 points to spend on chargen, but these are final.
How stupid would it be to multiclass into paladin, where should the 5 points go if she did, and would it be better to focus on the paladin side or the bard side?
Three points in Strength to raise it to 14, 2 points in Constitution to raise it to 12.
You'd probably be better off going with two levels of Paladin and then Bard the rest of the way, especially if you're careful about your Archetypes. It could work the other way too, but you should honestly run the character as a 1st level Bard/19th level Paladin or 2nd level Paladin/18th level Bard... an even split would cause each class to neuter the other.
Consider an Oracle/Paladin - I posted a build following that concept here.
