Thunder and Fang and Power Attack question


Rules Questions


6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Recently I have been toying with a Thunder and Fang build and I came across this question:

Thunder and fang says that : "You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon"

Power attack says: "You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls"

So, when the Earth Breaker is used in thunder and Fang style, does it gain the +50% increased damage or not? It seems to me that since it still is a 2H weapon used as though it is one handed, it should. But I also believe that this is going against the spirit of the rules.

What is your opinion?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You only get the extra damage when you actually wield the weapon with two hands.

It is how you wield the weapon that counts.


I see the logic on that. But I also see the logic that the mass of the weapon itself counts. By RAW it is not unambigious. This is why I asked.

Dark Archive

If use 1 handed it definitely should only do the normal damage, not the bonus +50 %

Grand Lodge

bigkilla wrote:
If use 1 handed it definitely should only do the normal damage, not the bonus +50 %

With the new FAQ update for CRB I think this needs brought back up.

Here is the update

Quote:

FAQ

Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?
Yes.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 05/24/13

The question says two-handed used with one-hand, and then references the mounted lance. The answer is just a simple yes, but is that for the lance (which makes sense) or does it also apply to this feat and the titan mauler archetype. Both let people use two-handed weapons in one hand.


The answer is no, the lance thing is most likely explained by having the excess STR coming from the force of the mount's charge. Jotungrip specifically states that you still spooky only 1x STR, I can't see this being different.

Shadow Lodge

I think the feat gives you the answer. "You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon"

You can* treat it as a one handed weapon. That means it is a one handed weapon for you and it acts as a one handed weapon including only doing standard strength and power attack damage.

*You can also use it as a two handed weapon, which requires two hands, at which point you get back the 50% damage from power attack and strength.

Grand Lodge

master_marshmallow wrote:
The answer is no, the lance thing is most likely explained by having the excess STR coming from the force of the mount's charge. Jotungrip specifically states that you still spooky only 1x STR, I can't see this being different.

Yes I forgot jotungrip specifically calls out power attack in it, but it also gives -2 penalty.

This feat does not, it lets you wield it one handed with no penalty. Which is why it brought it back up. If you read the FAQ literally it is yes. The FAQ entry isn't limited to mounted lances, that was the example. Although that is why I think it got a yes. I think the FAQ needs some more explanation.


Jotungrip requires a specific clause to specify that the exception to requiring two hand to wield the two handed weapon comes also with a change to calculate and adjudicate it as if it were a 1-h weapon; you get 1-h damage from Str and Power attack and, by extension, if an ability requires you to wield a 1-h weapon (ie. Spell Combat), a weapon wielded through Jotungrip qualifies. No other ability shares this explicit limitation and the FAQ is clear; the default is that changing how many hands are required to wield a 2-h weapon and changing its actual categorization as a 2-h weapon are entirely separate things. Conclusion: You get 1.5x Power Attack on an Earth Breaker wielded in via T&F and you can still treat it as a 2-h weapon in the case of Overhand Chop and other Two-handed Fighter archetype abilities. However, it doesn't qualify as a 1-h weapon for Spell Combat or any other ability that requires you to wield "a 1-h weapon". By contrast, Jotungrip counts the weapon as a 1-h weapon not only for damage calculation but also prohibits it from counting towards "while wielding a 2-h weapon" but allows it to count towards "while wielding a 1-h weapon".

Shadow Lodge

Kazaan, I have to disagree with you. Thunder and Fang specifically says "You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon." Not that you can wield it in one hand. You cannot wield an earthbreaker in one hand without treating it as a one handed weapon.

In fact the statement is even more consuming than jotun grips. You treat the Earthbreaker an a one handed weapon. Period that's it. Not provision on just in regards to power attack and strength but in all ways. Which also means you cannot use it will Overhand chop but you could (arguably) with Jotun Grip.


Seriphim84 wrote:
Kazaan, I have to disagree with you...

You may disagree with me, but Paizo disagrees with you... so Checkmate. You have it entirely backwards. Jotungrip has an explicit statement that said weapon is treated as if it were a 1-h weapon for calculations and other such purposes. T&F, on the other hand, lacks this kind of statement.


Treated as "a one handed weapon" will cause it to act as a weapon one handed weapon in all regards except where otherwise stated.

I don't see any "otherwise" statements.

Jotungrip having additional "reminder" language does not mean that such reminder language is always required.

Shadow Lodge

I was going to respond but Wraith made my point rather nicely. Thanks!


Why are so many posters ignoring the FAQ in the Official Rules forum? Take house rules to the house rules forum.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Why are so many posters ignoring the FAQ in the Official Rules forum? Take house rules to the house rules forum.

Nobody is ignoring the FAQ. The lance, which is where that FAQ came from said you can use it in one hand, but it never said to treat it as a one-handed weapon. That is why there was a debate about it. Without language saying to treat it as a one handed weapon or similar language then it is effectively a two-handed weapon used in one hand so it still gets two-handed bonuses.

With this particular question the rules specifically say that is it effectively a one handed weapon. If it is effectively a one handed weapon then it has to be treated like one in all regards, not just certain ones, unless the rules list exceptions. No exceptions have been listed that I saw.


wraithstrike wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Why are so many posters ignoring the FAQ in the Official Rules forum? Take house rules to the house rules forum.

Nobody is ignoring the FAQ. The lance, which is where that FAQ came from said you can use it in one hand, but it never said to treat it as a one-handed weapon. That is why there was a debate about it. Without language saying to treat it as a one handed weapon or similar language then it is effectively a two-handed weapon used in one hand so it still gets two-handed bonuses.

With this particular question the rules specifically say that is it effectively a one handed weapon. If it is effectively a one handed weapon then it has to be treated like one in all regards, not just certain ones, unless the rules list exceptions. No exceptions have been listed that I saw.

I think that's some pretty extreme rules lawyering. When in doubt on rules questions, always go with simple and easy to understand answer over the one that requires multiple paragraphs of linguistic hair-splitting to show that that two things that essentially the same don't really mean the same thing.

Honestly, the whole thing strikes me as: "We don't like the FAQ, so we'll bend over backwards to find an excuse to ignore it."


Chengar Qordath wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Why are so many posters ignoring the FAQ in the Official Rules forum? Take house rules to the house rules forum.

Nobody is ignoring the FAQ. The lance, which is where that FAQ came from said you can use it in one hand, but it never said to treat it as a one-handed weapon. That is why there was a debate about it. Without language saying to treat it as a one handed weapon or similar language then it is effectively a two-handed weapon used in one hand so it still gets two-handed bonuses.

With this particular question the rules specifically say that is it effectively a one handed weapon. If it is effectively a one handed weapon then it has to be treated like one in all regards, not just certain ones, unless the rules list exceptions. No exceptions have been listed that I saw.

I think that's some pretty extreme rules lawyering. When in doubt on rules questions, always go with simple and easy to understand answer over the one that requires multiple paragraphs of linguistic hair-splitting to show that that two things that essentially the same don't really mean the same thing.

Honestly, the whole thing strikes me as: "We don't like the FAQ, so we'll bend over backwards to find an excuse to ignore it."

Extreme rules lawyering? No, it's reading the text. It's treated as a one-handed weapon. One-handed weapons can be wielded in one hand. Plus, the feat requires two-weapon fighting and is quite explicitely based around wielding an earth breaker in one hand, and a klar in the other.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Why are so many posters ignoring the FAQ in the Official Rules forum? Take house rules to the house rules forum.

Nobody is ignoring the FAQ. The lance, which is where that FAQ came from said you can use it in one hand, but it never said to treat it as a one-handed weapon. That is why there was a debate about it. Without language saying to treat it as a one handed weapon or similar language then it is effectively a two-handed weapon used in one hand so it still gets two-handed bonuses.

With this particular question the rules specifically say that is it effectively a one handed weapon. If it is effectively a one handed weapon then it has to be treated like one in all regards, not just certain ones, unless the rules list exceptions. No exceptions have been listed that I saw.

I think that's some pretty extreme rules lawyering. When in doubt on rules questions, always go with simple and easy to understand answer over the one that requires multiple paragraphs of linguistic hair-splitting to show that that two things that essentially the same don't really mean the same thing.

Honestly, the whole thing strikes me as: "We don't like the FAQ, so we'll bend over backwards to find an excuse to ignore it."

So common sense and in game vernacular don't agree with what you want, and thus we must be the rules lawyers for trying to take it away from you. Now you demand in exact words it telling you to calculate damage from a weapon that you are using in one hand as if it was a weapon you were using in one hand, otherwise because there is no text explicitly telling you otherwise, you will treat the damage from this weapon you are using in one hand like you were actually using it in two. And we're the rules lawyers.


I would have said "No" but this

Quote:

FAQ

Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?
Yes.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 05/24/13

Quite clearly says "Yes"

Sczarni

It's a "yes".
The FAQ is for Power Attack & two-handed weapon with one hand. The Lance is just an example. The Earthbreaker & Thunder & Fang feat would be another such example.


Katz wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Why are so many posters ignoring the FAQ in the Official Rules forum? Take house rules to the house rules forum.

Nobody is ignoring the FAQ. The lance, which is where that FAQ came from said you can use it in one hand, but it never said to treat it as a one-handed weapon. That is why there was a debate about it. Without language saying to treat it as a one handed weapon or similar language then it is effectively a two-handed weapon used in one hand so it still gets two-handed bonuses.

With this particular question the rules specifically say that is it effectively a one handed weapon. If it is effectively a one handed weapon then it has to be treated like one in all regards, not just certain ones, unless the rules list exceptions. No exceptions have been listed that I saw.

I think that's some pretty extreme rules lawyering. When in doubt on rules questions, always go with simple and easy to understand answer over the one that requires multiple paragraphs of linguistic hair-splitting to show that that two things that essentially the same don't really mean the same thing.

Honestly, the whole thing strikes me as: "We don't like the FAQ, so we'll bend over backwards to find an excuse to ignore it."

Extreme rules lawyering? No, it's reading the text. It's treated as a one-handed weapon. One-handed weapons can be wielded in one hand. Plus, the feat requires two-weapon fighting and is quite explicitely based around wielding an earth breaker in one hand, and a klar in the other.

Sounds like somebody has a pet build they don't want anyone messing with. I've been seeing these 'dual-wielding earthbreaker' builds via Thunder and Fang begin to surface lately, trying to use the technicality of the feat to skip the Fang entirely and go Thunder and Thunder... talk about extreme rules lawyering, especially with the explicit intent of the feat being stated quite clearly.

Taking Weapon Focus in Klar just so that you can make a character who specifically avoids using a Klar? One of the more obvious cases of RAW vs. RAI that I've seen.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Why are so many posters ignoring the FAQ in the Official Rules forum? Take house rules to the house rules forum.

Nobody is ignoring the FAQ. The lance, which is where that FAQ came from said you can use it in one hand, but it never said to treat it as a one-handed weapon. That is why there was a debate about it. Without language saying to treat it as a one handed weapon or similar language then it is effectively a two-handed weapon used in one hand so it still gets two-handed bonuses.

With this particular question the rules specifically say that is it effectively a one handed weapon. If it is effectively a one handed weapon then it has to be treated like one in all regards, not just certain ones, unless the rules list exceptions. No exceptions have been listed that I saw.

I think that's some pretty extreme rules lawyering. When in doubt on rules questions, always go with simple and easy to understand answer over the one that requires multiple paragraphs of linguistic hair-splitting to show that that two things that essentially the same don't really mean the same thing.

Honestly, the whole thing strikes me as: "We don't like the FAQ, so we'll bend over backwards to find an excuse to ignore it."

No it is reading what the book says. If the books say treat X as Y then X now follows Y's rules. They have ALWAYS worked that way.

The sawtooth sabre is an example of this.


tburke0 wrote:

I would have said "No" but this

Quote:

FAQ

Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?
Yes.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 05/24/13

Quite clearly says "Yes"

The lance is never said to be treated as a one handed weapon, so of course the answer is yes for a lance. Being held in one hand does not equal "treat as a one-handed weapon".


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