Let's say Sorcerer Joe, using Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, and Still Spell, decides to cast Charm Person on Tony during a conversation they're having. Let's assume his spell fails to charm Tony.
First off, I'm assuming Joe gets a surprise initiative round to start off with?
I would call for a bluff check against Tony's sense motive. you're going to try to act like you're not punching someone in the face and then suddenly punch them in the face. Its the same principle.
Secondly, does Tony know he's almost had a spell cast on him?
Yes. Creatures feel the mental attack if they make their will saves.
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
And if he does, would he know it's Joe who tried?
That he would not know, although Joe should probably roll buff to keep a poker face.
Would Tony even roll initiative?
Yes. You get initiative when you're paralyzed or held, so you certainly get one when you're merely going "what the hell?"
Thirdly, and most importantly, does Joe know whether or not his spell worked? Or would he have to interact with Tony in some way (even just viewing his nonverbal behavior) to "tell" he was charmed?
The wizard knows if the spell was resisted or not.
...does Joe know whether or not his spell worked?
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
Emphasis mine.
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Let's say Sorcerer Joe, using Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, and Still Spell, decides to cast Charm Person on Tony during a conversation they're having. Let's assume his spell fails to charm Tony.
First off, I'm assuming Joe gets a surprise initiative round to start off with?
Secondly, does Tony know he's almost had a spell cast on him? And if he does, would he know it's Joe who tried? Would Tony even roll initiative?
Thirdly, and most importantly, does Joe know whether or not his spell worked? Or would he have to interact with Tony in some way (even just viewing his nonverbal behavior) to "tell" he was charmed?
Also note, by RAW, even with Still and Silent Spell, you can still be detected casting. Opposing casters still get to make spellcraft checks to identify you casting a spell, and you still provoke.
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*you always know if someone casts a spell on you, you get a spell craft to determine which effect it was.
*anyone casting a spell knows automatically that the spell failed.
*casting a spell provokes UNLESS you cast defensivly
* whether or not the person casting the spell, or the person having the spell cast on them, get surprise is a GM call.
* would someone know who cast the spell on them.... that is also a GM call
Let's say Sorcerer Joe, using Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, and Still Spell, decides to cast Charm Person on Tony during a conversation they're having. Let's assume his spell fails to charm Tony.
First off, I'm assuming Joe gets a surprise initiative round to start off with?
I would call for a bluff check against Tony's sense motive. you're going to try to act like you're not punching someone in the face and then suddenly punch them in the face. Its the same principle.
I'd argue that if Tony is a non-caster this would be auto-surprise. You could make the argument that a caster gets a chance to notice the magical energies, but someone who doesn't practice magic probably wouldn't have any idea if there is no strange gesturing or bizarro words.
Lots of issues here.
First off, making your Will save versus a spell does not miraculously let you know that a spell has been cast upon you, especially if you've never been the subject of a spell before. Once you've experienced enough spells, you might associate a certain feeling with magic, but you don't get to know off the bat what magic feels like just the same as you don't automatically know what poison is when you make a Fortitude save.
If someone poisons your wine and you make a Fortitude save, you don't automatically know that the wine is poisoned. It might be the meat or the fruit or that pleasant incense or that dressing the priestess put on your wounds.
If someone surreptitiously casts a spell on you, why should it be any different? Sure, you might suspect Joe the sorcerer, and he might need to do a Bluff check to not look suspicious, but at best all you see is him looking suspicious and shifty and that's not the same thing as incontrovertible proof.
As for strange words and gestures, if you don't have Spellcraft, you can't tell the difference between "Avada Kadavra!" and "Gesundheit!" or someone making the Voorish Sign and someone flipping you the bird.
If the spell doesn't show an audio or visual effect, I don't think the victim can roll spellcraft, after all, those meta magics were designed to be used that way, saying they do, its defeating the purpose of the already limited meta magic feats silent spell and still spell.
I once asked the same thing here, a silent and still spell should NOT provoke an attack of opportunity, especially if the victim doesn't get a clue that you are casting in the first place.
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As mentioned in this thread already, a person that is the target of a spell requiring a will save that succeeds that save is aware that someone tried something. They aren't aware who, and they aren't aware what was tried, but they know something is going on and have a reason to go into paranoia mode.
The caster, on the other hand, will know exactly who did and did not make their save *assuming the spell has enumerated targets*. If the spell just coats an area but doesn't require you to pick targets explicitly, then you don't know the results of saves. If the spell says "Targets X people/level" then you know the results, even if it affects multiple people.
By rules as written, no answer. By "rules as omitted" on the other hand, take a look at the Master Spy prestige class. They get an ability that lets them trick a caster into believing that the master spy is charmed or dominating, when they actually passed their save. So although it's not written in stone, the rule is clearly there. Caster knows when spell has failed.Let's say Sorcerer Joe, using Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, and Still Spell, decides to cast Charm Person on Tony during a conversation they're having. Let's assume his spell fails to charm Tony.
First off, I'm assuming Joe gets a surprise initiative round to start off with?
Secondly, does Tony know he's almost had a spell cast on him? And if he does, would he know it's Joe who tried? Would Tony even roll initiative?
Thirdly, and most importantly, does Joe know whether or not his spell worked? Or would he have to interact with Tony in some way (even just viewing his nonverbal behavior) to "tell" he was charmed?
RAW the caster does know. Page 216, the very last word on the page starts the appropriate sentence:
Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spel has failed.
So unless you're a Master Spy, you can't break that rule (or some other way of getting that ability).
If the spell doesn't show an audio or visual effect, I don't think the victim can roll spellcraft, after all, those meta magics were designed to be used that way, saying they do, its defeating the purpose of the already limited meta magic feats silent spell and still spell.
I once asked the same thing here, a silent and still spell should NOT provoke an attack of opportunity, especially if the victim doesn't get a clue that you are casting in the first place.
There's nothing about any of those feats factoring into AoO determination though. The only metamagic that directly affects AoO is Quicken Spell, because spells as swift actions don't provoke. In addition, Quicken Spell says:
Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.
Still Spell and Silent Spell do not have any such language. Since it is addressed directly in one feat and not in the others, that ability clearly isn't granted to them.
If I were to come up with an ad hoc rule for my game, I'd say the base DC to notice someone casting a spell is 0, increased by 5 for Still and Silent. A spell modified by both would require a DC 10 Perception check to notice them casting, if you notice, you get the AoO. That's as generous as I'd be willing to go for those feats. By RAW though, it should always provoke the AoO.
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Huh? Where is the link between noticing the guy is casting something and getting an AoO?
In a fight. Joe Blow wouldn't necessarily notice that Slick Sally is casting a silent still spell. He would notice, however, that she lets her guard down for a moment, hence the AoO.
During a conversation, outside a fight, it is questionable whether an AoO can take place to begin with. Here, Joe Blow still wouldn't necessarily notice that Sally Sally is casting something. He is likely to notice, however, that she seems to be distracted from that conversation... what this means to his actions is another story.
As mentioned in this thread already, a person that is the target of a spell requiring a will save that succeeds that save is aware that someone tried something. They aren't aware who, and they aren't aware what was tried, but they know something is going on and have a reason to go into paranoia mode.
The caster, on the other hand, will know exactly who did and did not make their save *assuming the spell has enumerated targets*. If the spell just coats an area but doesn't require you to pick targets explicitly, then you don't know the results of saves. If the spell says "Targets X people/level" then you know the results, even if it affects multiple people.
Going into paranoia mode from making a saving throw is usually a matter of player knowledge intruding on character knowledge. If the character walks into the crypt and I, as GM, say, "Make a Fortitude save," I do not have to reveal whether this Fortitude save is due to the contact poison on the doorknob, the stale air in the crypt, the hideous BO emanating from the ghast, or the Stilled Silent Finger of Death being cast by the lich in the corner, artfully posed to look like a heap of old bones.
I may mention that the doorknob is greasy, the air is stale, there's a relatively fresh corpse that stinks to high heaven, and a creepy dessicated old skeleton in the corner has one finger upraised like an admonishing schoolmarm, but it's up to characters making Perception checks or using various divinations to figure out anything more.
Interestingly, there is a wondrous item somewhere that boosts will saves, but also allows you to fake being charmed/dominated in order to deceive the caster into thinking the spell succeeded. I'm doing my best to find it right now, seems like it has a lot of potential.