Catching Up, Looking Ahead

Daaaaaaaaang.

I'm glad you got that last figure in, but I guess that there is always room for it.

What a great debut for the new set! Thrilled to have more NPC's, and all the other picks are great too. G cubes are always in demand, and hey, that bugbear looks awesome. I was also starting to worry that we weren't going to see a post from you today, so I'm just thrilled to be reading something from you, Erik! Thanks for that!

Erik, am I right in assuming the quivering cube isn't hollow? Would love to be able to put a mini inside, but it doesn't look like it has that capacity. Looks damned good though, and it means I can get me some cubes at long last. Although at rare I may have to hunt.

On that I understand the common wench and perhaps the uncommon barkeep. Is the tyrant an uncommon because of the relative simplicity of his sculpt and paint. Seems odd to have the top level bugbear at the uncommon rarity. Not that I mind, if the actual is even close to the render I'll be a happy with 3-4 of them.

When will we hear more on the iconics sets 4-6? Really pleased with these to date, the quality has been exceptional (no 3 just arrived and you can colour me impressed)

I'm in a peculiar position with this set - I almost wish this set was less suited to my needs: I have zero enthusiasm for non-combatant figures (since I don't represent non-fight scenes with miniatures and battles in the presence of innocents aren't that common in my games). So I'd quite like to skip the set - except it's got some minis which are useful to me. Also, I like the fact you're pushing the boundaries even though it's in a direction I have no interest in.

I won't go on about it, but I wanted to say that I'm anti-enthused by this set, even though I'm going to keep my subscription. I'm doubly disappointed by the "dungeon dressing" case incentive - those are so rare that skipping a gargantuan monster is a big disappointment. The fact the chosen dungeon dressing is not going to be tactically very useful makes it even moreso.

Still - glad you're experimenting and willing to push the boundaries. Fingers crossed you push in my direction next time, Erik. :)

We fully expect to use the case incentive mini in our goblin delves at Phoenix Comicon and RinCon. It will make for a great addition to our limited terrain pieces.

Have to agree with you in regard to the incentive Mr Geddes. I'm a little "anti-enthused" by the bar as well. I like my gargantuan minis, and in the absence of huge minis these days, really look forward to that one per set slot.

I'm all for the innocents, I tend to use them in battles. They help curb the explosive spells and add some rescue the innocent moments that break up standard combats.

Now I'm not opposed to the dressing, in fact I love the idea and am looking forward to the brazier and cauldron. However I am hoping when to dressing we'll see some more generic (that's prob not the right word) ones in this set - say large round table, chairs. I would have loved a round pillar, but that seemed to fit better with DD than this set. Beds would be good. A large cart, and horse miniatures. That sort of thing.

Hi Eric, cool that you could make it again. :-)

I am not a big fan of the computer renderings because they tend to look better than the actual mini, which always depends on the level of painting detail.
But i understand they are the first to be created and it is great to see some early preview.

You said that this set will be 45 minis including the dressing pieces.

How many will there be - 6 again?

To me the case incentive will only be interesting if it is big (long) enough.
It looks like it is 1 square deep and 4 long which would be too short. 2 deep and 8 long would be cool though.

$50 seems to be a bit much for that, will it be $30 (like the D&D Gargantuans), $40 like the old ones or $50?

I don´t understand why we could not get a 4x4 ground with a back wall and one side wall though. There could be the rack against the back wall and the counter could be loose - but i guess that is too much.

Thx

You said that this set will be 45 minis including the dressing pieces.

How many will there be - 6 again?

EXCLUDING the dungeon dressing, including the case incentive.

Weren't Feiya and King Irovetti figures originally going to appear in Lost Coast already?

Mike and I got a crack on the setlist for the next set today.

I'm at the same time super excited about the cool stuff in there and dreading the inevitable disappointment each of these reveals seems to bring.

But, as this message board is not a personal diary, I think I'll leave it at that for now.

Hope you enjoy what we have coming up next week.

Some of you won't. :)

Weren't Feiya and King Irovetti figures originally going to appear in Lost Coast already?

Yes.

WizKids has pushed them back twice, now.

DropBearHunter wrote:

Weren't Feiya and King Irovetti figures originally going to appear in Lost Coast already?

Yes.

WizKids has pushed them back twice, now.

Any chance we could get a new and improved Queen Ileosa of Korvosa as penance? (Mine is just as bad as Irovetti.)

Pretty please? ^_^

Mike and I got a crack on the setlist for the next set today.

I'm at the same time super excited about the cool stuff in there and dreading the inevitable disappointment each of these reveals seems to bring.

But, as this message board is not a personal diary, I think I'll leave it at that for now.

Hope you enjoy what we have coming up next week.

Some of you won't. :)

I wanted to first comment on the bold for a bit. Erik, I think it's great that you do take it to heart on what we like and don't like. But please don't take it too personally (let it get to you too much). We are all fans of miniatures here (otherwise we wouldn't be eagerly looking for your blog post every Friday), but all have our own preferences, and not all are going to mesh, there are just too many of us to have that happen. :)

So where I appreciate you do your best to satisfy us, I am glad you are going in new areas and testing to see how well they do. Thanks for the hard work and dedication. It isn't said enough on here.

As for the Rusty Dragon Inn set, I actually love seeing it. I agree, you can't have a complete set of commoners, but I have been hoping for more common folk for awhile now, so I am glad we are (probably) going to get a lot more here.

In our campaign, we do use the common folk, so these minis will be well put to use.

As for the case incentive, I will need to hold off judgement until I get a better picture and understanding that everything that comes with it. But even with my like of more common folk minis, I am a bit leery on a bar. If it's a really detailed bar with several components, I will be happy with it. Either way, I know we will put it to use.

Erik Mona wrote:

Mike and I got a crack on the setlist for the next set today.

I'm at the same time super excited about the cool stuff in there and dreading the inevitable disappointment each of these reveals seems to bring.

But, as this message board is not a personal diary, I think I'll leave it at that for now.

Hope you enjoy what we have coming up next week.

Some of you won't. :)

I wanted to first comment on the bold for a bit. Erik, I think it's great that you do take it to heart on what we like and don't like. But please don't take it too personally (let it get to you too much). We are all fans of miniatures here (otherwise we wouldn't be eagerly looking for your blog post every Friday), but all have our own preferences, and not all are going to mesh, there are just too many of us to have that happen. :)

So where I appreciate you do your best to satisfy us, I am glad you are going in new areas and testing to see how well they do. Thanks for the hard work and dedication. It isn't said enough on here.

I just wanted to echo this sentiment.

I'm a little tepid on what we've seen thus far for The Rusty Dragon, since full-on common folk aren't nearly as useful to me, but I'm always excited for more minis. And I'm hardly going to pass judgment on a set with so few revealed. The "Quivering" Cube gives me more hope for the set - and that's as someone who owns the original DDM one.

(Also, I'm likely to get more use out of the bar than about half the case incentives I currently have - how many times will I ever use a Gargantuan Green Dragon?)

If I ever do get uppity about what goes into these sets, it's because I know you pay attention to our feedback. Even if what I'm looking for isn't in this set, I know it could be in a future set.

These previews are one of my favorite things to look forward to on this site. So... stay strong, please. ^_^

Mike and I got a crack on the setlist for the next set today.

I'm at the same time super excited about the cool stuff in there and dreading the inevitable disappointment each of these reveals seems to bring.

But, as this message board is not a personal diary, I think I'll leave it at that for now.

Hope you enjoy what we have coming up next week.

Some of you won't. :)

Boo me! (Sorry for being a downer, Erik - my earlier post was intended as feedback, not criticism).

Whether I enjoy the choices you make in any set or not, I really respect the process you go through and the effort you put into trying to achieve the impossible (a complaint-free set).

I can picture myself hollowing out that idol to make room for an LED and battery.
Same for the cauldron and brazier.

Mike and I got a crack on the setlist for the next set today.

I'm at the same time super excited about the cool stuff in there and dreading the inevitable disappointment each of these reveals seems to bring.

But, as this message board is not a personal diary, I think I'll leave it at that for now.

Hope you enjoy what we have coming up next week.

Some of you won't. :)

Interesting.

I notice on a closer read you say the set has a focus on ghouls and bugbears. Is this like the gnoll focus in DD? Could we see 4 or so of each from the codex? I do hope so, some of the artwork in that is amazing. Been a good run for me, gnolls first, now ghouls and bugbears.

Any more lovecraftian goodies here? Surely they haunt inns as well as dungeons?

Nah, never mind me. I wasn't responding so much to one specific poster or one specific bit of feedback.

The weight of years on this stuff is just getting to me, and shifting me into a necessarily more pragmatic view of things.

You can't please everyone all the time. I'm coming to grips with it. :)

No Lovecraftian stuff in this set.

I'm told they look like muppets, or something. :)

No, seriously, they don't really fit the loose theme of the set, so they're on the bench for this outing.

Noooooooooooooooooo! Oh well ghouls and bugbears it is. By the way I could always use a fozzy bugbear? A love craft goblin old cross.....?

Nah, never mind me. I wasn't responding so much to one specific poster or one specific bit of feedback.

The weight of years on this stuff is just getting to me, and shifting me into a necessarily more pragmatic view of things.

You can't please everyone all the time. I'm coming to grips with it. :)

Nonetheless, I dont have to just give negative feedback...

I'm pleased with the ghouls, bugbears and gelatinous cubes (though I've got a stupid number of the latter already - they just always appeal to me, for some reason).

I also think it's awesome that future figures tie-in with previous figures (ie the town guard captain). That extra effort for 'backwards consistency' is greatly appreciated as a long-term collector.

And finally - Kalindlara has persuaded me that I should like this premium figure after all. As she points out - all these gargantuan miniatures I crave dont actually get that much use at the table. I may not be keen on dungeon dressing - but I'll still probably use the bar more than any of the gargantuan monsters I've got. So thanks for broadening my horizons!

As much as I am (very slightly) disappointed that there will be no Cthonic goodies in this set, the stereotypical fantasy bar has traditionally had at least one deeply cloaked figure of dubious race and disposition that tends to be either a quest-giver or quest-target (and very rarely, just an innocent background figure) that I'm hoping for at least one such figure in this set. Such a figure could also easily be used as a cultist for a Cthonic (or other form of) cult, and thus wound have many uses.

Personally, I'm very happy with gaining more NPC types, even non-combat ones. These will see lots of use, as many dungeons have slave pens with NPCs gathered on raids to be sold as slaves ... or worse, waiting to be rescued.

I have yet to hear or see anything about the case incentive aside from what is in these comments. I'll have to go and look for the thread that talks about it. Unless someone feels like being helpful and linking me to it... hint hint. ;)

Any chance that we'll get a Non-adventuring variant of Ameiko Kaijitsu? After all the Rusty Dragon is HER Inn / Bar / Stomping Grounds.

Erik - Any ETA, even a rough one, on sets 4, 5, and 6 for the Iconics?

I'm thrilled with all the different directions Pathfinder is going with their minis line. I'm totally in for the Rusty Dragon concept. One of the biggest areas I need to fill out in my collection are the nobles and commoners one runs into in various situations. The ones that have come in the previous sets have been a huge draw. I'm excited to see what has been come up with for a set themed around them. The barmaid and merchant will both see use, I'm hoping for 4 - 5 others like them.

As for the case incentive, any gargantuan so I really want now are so fringe I see the likelihood of them being made quite low (except perhaps a Tarrasque). So foregoing another dragon or demon for one set doesn't bother me at all. I'm looking forward to getting more details about the bar soon.

Any chance that we'll get a Non-adventuring variant of Ameiko Kaijitsu? After all the Rusty Dragon is HER Inn / Bar / Stomping Grounds.

This was originally on the list, but I had to drop it for a few reasons, not least of which being that we didn't have any decent art for it.

Erik - Any ETA, even a rough one, on sets 4, 5, and 6 for the Iconics?

No, but I hope to have something to report soon. We're swapping emails about it at the moment.

Leo_Negri wrote:

Any chance that we'll get a Non-adventuring variant of Ameiko Kaijitsu? After all the Rusty Dragon is HER Inn / Bar / Stomping Grounds.

This was originally on the list, but I had to drop it for a few reasons, not least of which being that we didn't have any decent art for it.

Understandable, so now there are two challenges: 1st get a good piece of non-combat art, 2nd find a home for the mini in another set :)

In any event, thank you for the prompt response.

I want to say I am very excited for Dungeon's Deep and the Rusty Dragon Inn. My painting skills are lackluster, and while I am trying to get more practice I found the prepainted miniatures really fill an itch I have to collect little figures with the added bonus of being super useful! Townsfolk figures are something sorely lacking with PPM even if overall interest tends to not be there yet. There is definitely room to a set with that focus in the Battles line. Sometimes opponents are or look like townsfolk. Sometimes townsfolk need be kept alive. There are definite uses, and I think once they hit people's tables they will be more appreciated.

The 'diorama' incentive is also interesting. Currently I am waiting to see how it ends up looking and how much I find it useful. Good on Paizo for taking some risks on new ideas.

Let's face it. The commoner minis are super necessary for combat especially in urban campaigns, they may not be exciting. BUt when a fight breaks out on a city street, all these merchants, and commoners are bound to be in the way. As for dungeon dressing, again it makes life much easier to have physical representations of stuff.

Leo_Negri wrote:

Any chance that we'll get a Non-adventuring variant of Ameiko Kaijitsu? After all the Rusty Dragon is HER Inn / Bar / Stomping Grounds.

This was originally on the list, but I had to drop it for a few reasons, not least of which being that we didn't have any decent art for it.

I believe one of the earliest issues of the Pathfinder comic has the heroes at the Rusty Dragon. I seem to recall an image of Ameiko sitting by the fire, playing her instrument and singing.

Does anyone else know what I'm referring to? Do you think that might work?

Alright, I dug out the issue in question. I'm afraid it's not nearly a good enough shot to work. Sorry. ^_^

Erik Mona wrote:

Leo_Negri wrote:

Any chance that we'll get a Non-adventuring variant of Ameiko Kaijitsu? After all the Rusty Dragon is HER Inn / Bar / Stomping Grounds.

This was originally on the list, but I had to drop it for a few reasons, not least of which being that we didn't have any decent art for it.

I believe one of the earliest issues of the Pathfinder comic has the heroes at the Rusty Dragon. I seem to recall an image of Ameiko sitting by the fire, playing her instrument and singing.

Does anyone else know what I'm referring to? Do you think that might work?

The problem is, even if such an image exists, it's a comic, and it's sitting. They sort of need something that translates into 3D well, with lots of detail. Comics versus paintings usually don't have the detail, and sitting will impact the usefulness of the image to translate into a sculpt.

That said, I commend you for trying; she's totally worth trying to get made.

Erik Mona wrote:

Leo_Negri wrote:

Any chance that we'll get a Non-adventuring variant of Ameiko Kaijitsu? After all the Rusty Dragon is HER Inn / Bar / Stomping Grounds.

This was originally on the list, but I had to drop it for a few reasons, not least of which being that we didn't have any decent art for it.

I believe one of the earliest issues of the Pathfinder comic has the heroes at the Rusty Dragon. I seem to recall an image of Ameiko sitting by the fire, playing her instrument and singing.

Does anyone else know what I'm referring to? Do you think that might work?

Alright, I dug out the issue in question. I'm afraid it's not nearly a good enough shot to work. Sorry. ^_^

Also, she looks exactly the same as the miniature we've already made of her.

Honestly I would have commissioned another Ameiko drawing for this set back in the day when we had 55 sculpts per set. Now that we've lost 10, I'm really leery of doubling up figures we've already done, especially named unique NPCs.

Mike and I got a crack on the setlist for the next set today.

I'm at the same time super excited about the cool stuff in there and dreading the inevitable disappointment each of these reveals seems to bring.

But, as this message board is not a personal diary, I think I'll leave it at that for now.

Hope you enjoy what we have coming up next week.

Some of you won't. :)

I actually thought that you were doing a pretty good job of taking on the task of trying to please ALL of us :)

There is of course no set formula that will work to please everyone, and its always much easier for people to talk about in detail why they don't like 5 minis of the set as opposed to the other 40 that they do like.

I appreciate that you spend a lot of time (likely a lot of it being your personal time) perusing the ppm forums, looking for feedback to guide you in future sets. While it is great that you are taking into account all of our feedback, historically you have shown good judgement for set composition and balance and you probably don't even need our feedback. You have taken on the impossible task of trying to please everyone, and you are doing a good job in my books.

If I like 75% of the miniatures in a set, then it is a "win" for me as a collector and a case-buyer. People need to be realistic in their expectations.

A case is an expensive purchase and I do understand why some people base their decision to buy a case, based on the percentage of figures they like in a case. Although sometimes people declare their refusal to buy a case based on your inability to fully satisfy their needs -- I have yet to see an ex-case buyer declare that they will not be buying "any" of the miniatures in a set. As long as they are still buying some of the minis, you have indeed succeeded :)

Honestly I would have commissioned another Ameiko drawing for this set back in the day when we had 55 sculpts per set. Now that we've lost 10, I'm really leery of doubling up figures we've already done, especially named unique NPCs.

Sorry for asking, but why did the sculpts per set get reduced anyway? I'd much rather have a greater diversity of models than more of each, all other things being equal. ^_^

I'll buy a case pretty much no matter what's in the set, for the record. ^_^

Ever since Harbinger came out, it seems like there are one or two posters that will express disappointment that a set didn't include serving girls, barkeeps, and other townsfolk and insist that there is a deep well of untapped demand for such figures.

Now we'll get the chance to see how honest they were. The renderings look pretty good so far.

I'm really interested in seeing the bar. If it works, it will be nice to have a 3-D setting.

You do a great job, Erik. The internet just brings out people's negativity. Don't let it get you down!
And whatever you're hearing here, I know minis that can serve as non-combatant NPC's are always popular in resale. The old WotC Farmer has increased in value ever since its release. And I love using NPC's as tactical elements; one of my favorite encounters ever was the umber hulk encounter from Shackled City, with the umber hulk confusing masses of bystanders that the party then had to contend with. I did a nice papercraft build of that encounter that you can see here. I used mostly paper minis for the NPCs, but I used prepaints as much as I could, and I'm always happy to expand my prepainted mobs!

Erik Mona wrote:

Honestly I would have commissioned another Ameiko drawing for this set back in the day when we had 55 sculpts per set. Now that we've lost 10, I'm really leery of doubling up figures we've already done, especially named unique NPCs.

Sorry for asking, but why did the sculpts per set get reduced anyway? I'd much rather have a greater diversity of models than more of each, all other things being equal. ^_^

It was economics, basically. They started out with 40-sculpt sets, then tried a 60(?)-sculpt set, including huges. Then dropped a little, then a little more but added dungeon dressing. (That's all from rather hazy, memory, I'll confess..).

Obviously the more sculpts and the fewer repeats, the higher the cost per figure. My ideal was the Rise of the Runelords set, but there were loud complaints about the sticker-shock - obviously that was a bridge to far. I guess somewhere there's an ideal number where Wizkids make a buck and we still get a broad enough mix of figures.

No doubt they'll continue experimenting - I'm hopeful that the Iconic Heroes sets take off and that they'll then be able to stop including iconics in the bigger cases, for example. I'm glad they're not following the model Wizkids use in the D&D sets of having "super-rares" - in my mind the "every case should have a complete set of figures" goal is the most important.

Erik, if your still setting up another set and still looking for minis I'd like to see just a few more Giants. I thought I was satisfied wit the number I have but since then the art from Giantslayer has come out, and let's face it every one of those cover Giants and a ton of the interior art are amazing candidates for miniatures. In particular Grenseldek in the appendix, and that fire giant tyrant on the cover of Anvil of Fire. I know we've had a glut but I could still use a few - female hill, shadow, ash, cave.

My ideal was the Rise of the Runelords set, but there were loud complaints about the sticker-shock - obviously that was a bridge to far. I guess somewhere there's an ideal number where Wizkids make a buck and we still get a broad enough mix of figures.

No doubt they'll continue experimenting - I'm hopeful that the Iconic Heroes sets take off and that they'll then be able to stop including iconics in the bigger cases, for example. I'm glad they're not following the model Wizkids use in the D&D sets of having "super-rares" - in my mind the "every case should have a complete set of figures" goal is the most important.

I am with Steve on this. RotRL was my favorite set on how they handled quantity and selection of miniatures. I really liked how they had the good-sized 'normal' set (60) and the additional 4 huge minis.

It gave us a good variety, as well as including huges, which they are sorely unrepresented in PFB (for understandable reasons).

But also like Steve, I was ok with the higher costs involved with the RotRL set, I know many are not. But I do hope there is a way figured out in the future to include huge minis in the line, as there are so many great creatures not getting attention that is deserved.

Not said in an angry or critical sense, just my support of including huges as part of sets again, if ever done again. :)

Erik you really need to get us some Taiga giants soon as well.

But I do hope there is a way figured out in the future to include huge minis in the line, as there are so many great creatures not getting attention that is deserved.

Yup. I suspect it's an unsolvable problem though. When you've got a large case, you can "spread" the costs out, raising the price-per-mini somewhat to subsidize very expensive complex and/or massive minis.

When the case price shrinks, you have less room to mask the true costs of the massive minis. End result is that people don't want to pay $400-500 for a case of minis, and without doing so, it's not possible to include a few $40 minis. Numbers are symbolic only, of course.

So now, there are those of us hoping for something like a "Huge Elementals Booster Case", containing four elementals. Problem is that case would cost $150-$200 (and shipping) and contain... four minis. Yeah, not many of us willing to cough that up.

So you can't sell the Huge minis alone, you can't include them in cases... what's left? Not make them, evidently.

I dunno. This is about the only situation where pre-order makes any sense. I, for instance, would probably look askance at that case of four Huge elementals, but if I were asked to pay $40 in advance, twice a year for two years, and get one every six months as long as enough people were like-minded, that might work. But... not likely. Lisa's said pretty publicly that she's disinclined to do anything Kickstarter-esque again. So, as long as the CEO's (kind of understandably) against the one business model that might work, we're not likely going to see Huge minis from Paizo.

Yes, I understand the logistics why we haven't seen another huge case (like from RotRL), but I'm not about to assume or guess what or if Paizo/WhizKids may try out to make it possible.

No, it may not seem realistic from what we can see right now, but Erik has shown to be creative and to persevere in areas where we didn't anticipate it would happen. It is obvious he cares for the line and does his best to give us what we want.

So I'm not ready to close up shop yet on seeing more huge minis.

I have an idea - just throwing this out there.

As I noted above, I don't get a ton of use out of any specific Gargantuan mini. There's a lot of interest in Huge minis, though. I was looking over my pile of case incentives when I saw the Huge Black Dragon from H&M.

What if the next case incentive (after the bar) were two Huge miniatures (or one really nice one)?

Discuss, I guess. ^_^

While the Gargantuan minis are nice, that is a good idea. Have a pair of theme-appropriate Huge minis instead of a single Gargantuan as the case incentive. That could work well.

Let's face it. The commoner minis are super necessary for combat especially in urban campaigns, they may not be exciting. BUt when a fight breaks out on a city street, all these merchants, and commoners are bound to be in the way. As for dungeon dressing, again it makes life much easier to have physical representations of stuff.

I've found that just mancala pieces work amazing for that. Grab a handful, throw them on the board (literally), and there are commoners.

I also use the same method for difficult terrain and obstacles, which really are all the commoners are :D

The Minis Maniac wrote:

Let's face it. The commoner minis are super necessary for combat especially in urban campaigns, they may not be exciting. BUt when a fight breaks out on a city street, all these merchants, and commoners are bound to be in the way. As for dungeon dressing, again it makes life much easier to have physical representations of stuff.

I've found that just mancala pieces work amazing for that. Grab a handful, throw them on the board (literally), and there are commoners.

I also use the same method for difficult terrain and obstacles, which really are all the commoners are :D

What are mancala pieces? I am guessing they are similar to the colored stones we use for large groups of creatures/NPCs.

Those work well if the NPCs are all the same, but it’s nice to have minis for the important NPCs, to differentiate them. Like combat at a farmhouse, where you’ve gotten to know the family well. It’s nice to have minis for each of the family members if they get involved somehow in a combat.