Unflinching Evil

I trust there will be more on them in the description. As it is it's a head that just lies there unless you touch it's stuff. Then it has 6 different languages to tell you NOT to touch it's stuff. Kind of a waste of a 17 intelligence. At least the vampires get the chicks.

This thing is only a CR14? Yikes!

I trust there will be more on them in the description. As it is it's a head that just lies there unless you touch it's stuff. Then it has 6 different languages to tell you NOT to touch it's stuff. Kind of a waste of a 17 intelligence. At least the vampires get the chicks.

They get a two-page spread, so there should be plenty there for you.

an easy target for a good archer, a very dificult oponent for everyone else

In my only experience with a Demilich I threw it into a sphere of annihilation.

Thats a nasty undead you make the save and get two negative levels I love it

Ah, the Tomb of Horrors ... good times :)

an easy target for a good archer, a very dificult oponent for everyone else

As long as the archer is using vorpal arrows :), sure - otherwise the DR 20/- is going to pose just as much problem for the archer as for melee types.

That feat that make the DR count just once for all you atacks (and not for every atack) will helps a lot, and every good archer should have it :).

I think that CR 14 is a little off. Maybe CR16 the Telekinetic storm and the Banshee's Wail will pretty much get rid of most non-fighter types if their fail their saves. The wail will do 200pts of damage on a failed fort save to up to 20 people and if you survived he can cause an average of 42 pts of dmg with the telekinesis.

Lets see...
Evil DM plays the Demi-Lich

The adventurers search the treasure of the ancient arch-mage Aikeelyu

Rd 1: Wail of the banshee on everyone (at DC 24 200pts dmg if you fail save)
Rd 2: bestow curse on fighter(-12 to CON)

Rinse and reapeat until everyone is dead.

I think that CR 14 is a little off. Maybe CR16 the Telekinetic storm and the Banshee's Wail will pretty much get rid of most non-fighter types if their fail their saves. The wail will do 200pts of damage on a failed fort save to up to 20 people and if you survived he can cause an average of 42 pts of dmg with the telekinesis.

Lets see...
Evil DM plays the Demi-Lich

The adventurers search the treasure of the ancient arch-mage Aikeelyu

Rd 1: Wail of the banshee on everyone (at DC 24 200pts dmg if you fail save)
Rd 2: bestow curse on fighter(-12 to CON)

Rinse and reapeat until everyone is dead.

Do you really need more ways to kill me?

One thing I just don't get is the Vorpal Susceptibility, I mean aren't Vorpal weapons designed to cut off heads? this thing is just a head...

One thing I just don't get is the Vorpal Susceptibility, I mean aren't Vorpal weapons designed to cut off heads? this thing is just a head...

Then you really wouldn't have gotten the 1st edition, where thieves could throw gems at a demi-lich for 1 hp of damage, or some of the other weird and limited ways that a demi-lich could be harmed.

Thats a tough as nails CR 14! I definitely agree that it could stand to be bumped up a few CRs, especially since most casters will be worthless unless they have some pretty specific spells. This is a fight best left to beefy guys with high Fort saves. I'spose its mitigated somewhat by the fact that you might not even have to fight it if its spotted early.

If you think that's nasty, you should see the stats on the Seven Year Lich. Terrifying.

Thats a tough as nails CR 14! I definitely agree that it could stand to be bumped up a few CRs, especially since most casters will be worthless unless they have some pretty specific spells. This is a fight best left to beefy guys with high Fort saves. I'spose its mitigated somewhat by the fact that you might not even have to fight it if its spotted early.

It's just a challenge for the casters to find spells that don't allow SR, whether that's buffing their allies, summoning monsters, or throwing thinks at it using telekenesis, etc.

I'm glad to see the demi-lich at a CR where its able to be a common foe.

Ahhh fell Demilich ... You've come a long way since Gary's Tomb of Horrors.

Welcome home, the tea pot's just starting to brew, would you like some tasty adventurers before dinner?

Yep, the wickedest tiny I've ever come across. I'd sure like to see him made into a Pathfinder Battles mini! Although I guess a little paint on the Flaming Skull would make a suitable proxy.

Thats a tough as nails CR 14! I definitely agree that it could stand to be bumped up a few CRs, especially since most casters will be worthless unless they have some pretty specific spells. This is a fight best left to beefy guys with high Fort saves. I'spose its mitigated somewhat by the fact that you might not even have to fight it if its spotted early.

GM describing the demi-lich encounter: "You enter the chamber to find thousands upon thousands of coins and jewels mixed along with finely made weapons, armors and various bones of creatures long dead."

Players in unison: "we're searching the treasure!"

Fighter: Any swords?
Wizards: any wands or rods?
Rogue: How big are the gems?
Cleric: Anything I can use?

GM: " As you begin sifting through the treasure one of the skulls covered in jewels rises in a reddish glow"

GM: Roll for initiative (averaging things out the Demi-lich will fall somewhere in the middle after the rogue and maybe wizard, but before the cleric and fighter(it has a +7 Init)

Rogue: I circle around it and sneak attack (1d6+5+7d6+1d6 acid):13dmg
Wizard: what is it?(DC24 knowledge roll +20) Immunities?
GM: A Demi-Lich, descibe immunities above.
Wizard: OMG!
Wizard: Lets get out of here! get close so I can port.(move action)
GM:Demi-lich: move 5 feet away from rogue then Wails : 200hp dmg to rogue, fighter and cleric(rogue fails save - needed natural 18 or better roll)
Rogue: Ouch! Does evasion help?
GM: Nope.......

I really hope that my GM is not reading this excerpt right now, because that thing is down right terrifying! A very cool monster, I can't wait to see what other goodies are in the book.

/one of my GMs scaring the hell out of me

Dude stop it, just stop it.

Shivok wrote:

/one of my GMs scaring the hell out of me

Dude stop it, just stop it.

Dont worry RotRl doesn't have any in it.....but hey you never know ;)

I remember a homebrew adventure where the PCs killed one demilich without overly severe casualties. They started congratulating each other -- and then a panel opened in the ceiling and four more demiliches dropped out right into their laps. Ah, such memories.

SwnyNerdgasm wrote:

Shivok wrote:

/one of my GMs scaring the hell out of me

Dude stop it, just stop it.

Dont worry RotRl doesn't have any in it.....but hey you never know ;)

Better not be in RotRl, because if I have to make another character I'm gonna become a sad player, especially since I'm just getting the feel of my current one.

an easy target for a good archer, a very dificult oponent for everyone else

The archer has to beat DR 20/- with each arrow. Unless they are 300 feet away (not likely in the kind of environment where a demilich is likely to be encountered) they have at most 9 rounds to destroy the thing before they die (assuming they save vs. soul devouring each time, despite having their save reduced by -2 each time that they make their save).

No, an archer is hosed, just like everyone else.

Nicos wrote:

an easy target for a good archer, a very dificult oponent for everyone else

The archer has to beat DR 20/- with each arrow. Unless they are 300 feet away (not likely in the kind of environment where a demilich is likely to be encountered) they have at most 9 rounds to due that in before they die (assuming they save vs. soul devouring each time, despite having their save reduced by -2 each time that they make their save).

No, an archer is hosed, just like everyone else.

Except a smiting paladin, unless I'm missing something.

This thing is viscious. I might have to up the CR, but at those levels the players find ways to surprise you.

I love the creature stats, but the illustration looks like a metal tattoo. The illustration of the demilich from

Was much closer to what I envision. I will not show this picture to my players when I toss this into Serpent skull as a hazard of Ilmuria.

A smiting paladin has a chance. An alchemist with force bombs would also do OK.

Ok, what a 4 character 14th level party that had a chance against a demilich look like? Discount the unlikely event that someone has a vorpal blade.

Paladin, Alchemist, Cleric (with remove curse and dispel evil and hallow all taken multiple times), and a witch (su hexes, deathward)

Nicos wrote:

an easy target for a good archer, a very dificult oponent for everyone else

The archer has to beat DR 20/- with each arrow.

No, they don't. Clustered Shots means the DR only applies once over the entire full attack.

Wow that is one nasty CR14 critter.

CR 14, with several abilities that pretty much guarantee a TPK?

Hilarious!

moon glum wrote:

Nicos wrote:

an easy target for a good archer, a very dificult oponent for everyone else

The archer has to beat DR 20/- with each arrow.

No, they don't. Clustered Shots means the DR only applies once over the entire full attack.

That feat would definitely be nice in this scenario. An Archer in one of the games I play in can reliably do around 90 pts of damage in a round.

Of course, the demilich could then use its telekinetic storm power to give itself total concealment, or greater curse the archer, etc. But if the archer got one round of arrows in, it would definitely help.

Wonder if this comes with that "Use With Caution" warning to GMs again.

Wonder if this comes with that "Use With Caution" warning to GMs again.

Given it's iconic status in the game, I sort of take that for granted, as I do with dragons. When working on this monster, I kept in mind its reputation as being a deadly foe to trifle with. The Pathfinder demilich is a big can of nasty in a tiny skull, but that's in keeping with its statistics in most editions of the game. Level 14's about where it would have been fought in the original Tomb of Horrors, where it was also a potential TPK if taken lightly.

I think the CR is a good fit given its passivity unless provoked and its unwillingness to pursue, but mileage may vary.

Any time an optimized, experienced level 16 party looks at at CR 14 and is pretty sure it could win, maybe, if it got lucky, that CR 14 is definitely under-CRed.

Clustered Shots would be nice for the archer, but my DM (rightly) thinks it's broken and OP and doesn't allow it. There are a very small number of level 14 or 15 parties I'd expect to be able to handle this thing at all. At level 12, it's only a +2 encounter. I don't see any way out of a TPK for that poor level 12 party unless someone teleports them all out before the demilich gets to go. Knowing when to run is a plus, of course, but it's not necessarily fun when it's win init to run or die when you didn't see anything like it coming.

I think it's an awesome monster. But: it's not a CR 14 when a monster has
1) a 9th level aoe kill spell at will
2) a supernatural save-or-die that is still damned painful if you save at will
3) magic immunity, and
4) DR 20/- (because really, who has a vorpal sword before level 19? It's so much more important to get +5 to overcome DR first)
It will get missed in the treasure pile because it hides, and it will get to go, and it will TPK just about any party it sees of "appropriate" level.

Thats a tough as nails CR 14!.

Not if you have a paladin in the party.

Any time an optimized, experienced level 16 party looks at at CR 14 and is pretty sure it could win, maybe, if it got lucky, that CR 14 is definitely under-CRed.

Clustered Shots would be nice for the archer, but my DM (rightly) thinks it's broken and OP and doesn't allow it. There are a very small number of level 14 or 15 parties I'd expect to be able to handle this thing at all. At level 12, it's only a +2 encounter. I don't see any way out of a TPK for that poor level 12 party unless someone teleports them all out before the demilich gets to go. Knowing when to run is a plus, of course, but it's not necessarily fun when it's win init to run or die when you didn't see anything like it coming.

I think it's an awesome monster. But: it's not a CR 14 when a monster has
1) a 9th level aoe kill spell at will
2) a supernatural save-or-die that is still damned painful if you save at will
3) magic immunity, and
4) DR 20/- (because really, who has a vorpal sword before level 19? It's so much more important to get +5 to overcome DR first)
It will get missed in the treasure pile because it hides, and it will get to go, and it will TPK just about any party it sees of "appropriate" level.

If you happen to be traipsing through a magic and undead heavy area looking for treasure - and would a demilich even form anywhere else - chances are that you and several of your friends have death ward up. I know, I know, Schrödinger's adventurer, but past 11th level death wards are one of the things everyone wants as soon as possible. This monster is considerably easier with that spell.

A dedicated undead-hunting character(cleric of glory, paladin, inquisitor) starting to really hit their stride will also stand tall against a demilich. Sure, it's under CR'd, but people often forget how ridiculous player ingenuity and defenses can get past level 11. Someone who has prepared for killing the dead("Just plain dead") deader has enough aces in the hole(smite evil, the named bullet spell, flfat immunity to certain energy forms, like negative, etc) to be able to challenge this thing. Same with the earlier tsitzimitl.

"Behind the curtain", as it were, the DR's offset by the low armor class for its CR (5 points below par). Deadly aim and Power Attack come in to play to bypass the damage reduction Hit points are also 25% below a typical CR 14 creature. I do agree that 20's a heinous number to bypass, but I didn't see a reason to lower it from the source material, and I've seen firsthand how easily a 13th level party can bypass that damage reduction. The demilich also has an Achille's heel of sorts to a common form of attack, I'll leave figuring that out as an exercise for the adventurer.

Comparing this to the Complete Tome of Horrors take on the demilich, the Bestiary 3 version has 1 more point of AC, 1 more point of channel resistance, 9 more hp (and 1 more HD), and a higher caster level. The ToH demilich drains an additional negative level when it fails to trap a soul, and has DC 22 on that power instead of 24 (no Ability Focus). The Bestiary 3 demilich has telekinesis, true seeing, and that nifty telekinetic storm power. Both have greater bestow curse and wail of the banshee, at the same DCs.

The par primary save DC of a CR 14 creature is 22. 24's a nasty step up from that, but not unprecedented. It amounts to blowing the save on two more numbers on the die. I couldn't see lowering it's Charisma to 17 to make those DCs line up, and as a designer I didn't see an reason why it's single-target killing effect should be easier to resist than its multi-target one, hence throwing in ability focus.

Both versions are CR 14, and based on the Tome of Horrors demilich from 3.0 days (also CR 14). That CR comes from the level range recommended for the original Tomb of Horrors, no doubt.

True seeing changes something I saw as an oversight in the original demilich. Telekinesis fits a design objective of having the skull be able to fix its tomb. Telekinetic storm gives the demilich something to do in a round besides instant death effects, while it has tactical uses to be sure it's also a way to avoid slaughtering PCs :) Those extra powers over the CR 14 ToH version act more to round out the demilich into something that fits its campaign role, rather than increase its raw power.

Those initial turnover thoughts were refined and improved by Paizo's developers. I'm thrilled with how it came out!

Anyhow. Some rambling thoughts on what goes into critter design.

I won't throw this at my party even if I have a really bad day.
The only explanation to justify CR 14 is Torpor in my eyes, even tough that is an all or nothing idea. (also what happens if you attack the skull without touching its treasure? does it attack, or take the blows? does it count as its own remains?)

I am continually surprised to hear that death ward is a common spell at higher levels.

I have been roleplaying D&D and Pathfinder for over 15 years, and I have NEVER seen that spell cast. Not once.

Among other problems, it's duration is simply too short. At 1 minute/level, you aren't going to cast it until you witness someone die from a death effect. If that someone is you, well, who is going to protect the party then? If the death effect is something like wail of the banshee from a flying skull who got a surprise round and TPKs the party because adventurers are used to seeing skulls in treasure hoards by this level then, well, the spell just doesn't mean much, does it?

Seriously though. I hope this thing sees errata. Players WILL call foul when a monster kills all of them in the surprise round with a spell the PCs won't see themselves for another 3 levels.

it's not a template?

If you happen to be traipsing through a magic and undead heavy area looking for treasure - and would a demilich even form anywhere else - chances are that you and several of your friends have death ward up. I know, I know, Schrödinger's adventurer, but past 11th level death wards are one of the things everyone wants as soon as possible. This monster is considerably easier with that spell.

A dedicated undead-hunting character(cleric of glory, paladin, inquisitor) starting to really hit their stride will also stand tall against a demilich. Sure, it's under CR'd, but people often forget how ridiculous player ingenuity and defenses can get past level 11. Someone who has prepared for killing the dead("Just plain dead") deader has enough aces in the hole(smite evil, the named bullet spell, flfat immunity to certain energy forms, like negative, etc) to be able to challenge this thing. Same with the earlier tsitzimitl.

I disagree with your assessment of death ward. It's a very good spell, and a cleric with the Repose domain does well. But death ward doesn't protect people from the bestow curse or the Trap the Soul ability (Trap the Soul is not a death effect). It does prevent the negative levels if you save, but if you don't, you still get sucked into the gem and your body still disintegrates. Death ward is also a low duration spell that you don't run around with because you can't. It just doesn't last long enough. I've never in my career run around a dungeon, even one full of undead, with death ward up because it just wasn't feasible. As an armor enchantment it's ok, but it only covers the first one, and it is expensive.

As for the dedicated party, you're mostly right. A dedicated undead-hunting party *might* be able to handle this. Maybe. But most parties aren't so specialized, and a monster's CR should never assume a group is going to be ideal for killing it. DR 20/- is ridiculously penalizing, even to our hypothetical cleric/paladin/inquisitor/ranger party, so the demilich will live long enough to do murderous things. Not to mention it flies, so it could be very difficult for some of our undead slayers to even get to it to do damage (paladin, cleric, many inquisitors). Now, any 10+ party should have lots of methods of flying available, but still. It's a potential concern.

I play in two games right now. One is at level 16 and one just hit 10. Our defenses are solid, but they're nothing super awesome. Solid AC (30ish on most, 40ish on fighter, witch has ring of invisibility), good saves (+5 cloak on pretty much everyone), heavy offensive capability. We took a look at this preview, and as a level 16 party were not sure we'd win. We probably would, but more than one person would likely die, and a few bad rolls would mean a TPK easily. No CR 14 should provide more than a slight challenge to a level 16 party.

What? The level 10 archerdin in my group would probably one-round this critter here.

Without him they'd probably lose though.

Do you think the game designers are now balancing monsters based on some of the power builds they've seen on these forums?

Do you think the game designers are now balancing monsters based on some of the power builds they've seen on these forums?

Its not a power build, just a paladin with a bow and matching feats. He even has lower total wealth than level appropriate.

it's not a template?

A "normal" demilich lacks the full faculties of the lich it once was, so a template doesn't make much sense. On the second page, there's a templated version for those lovely even rarer demiliches that still remember how to cast spells.

Very similar to the ToH demilich, but with enough differences to make a good variant. Hopefully this same approach is used in all future conversions of ToH monsters.

it's not a template?

It's mainly based on the original demilich from the Tomb of Horrors, which was more of a magical trap / reminent of the prior lich than a truly sentient being. Although if you prefer the "awakened" type, they gives rules on those as well.