Trollin' on the River

Troll be or not troll be, that is the question

All hail Chief Hargulka! Long may you live!**

I kind of like how the evolution of the troll reflects the evolution of the game we all play.

I like even more that there are several skulls on Chief Hargulka to give us an idea of how 'husky' the big boy is.

(Is that a Tatzlwyrm skull on his shoulder?)

**Until you are killed a thousand times by pcs the world over.

I love this blog! Troll forever!!

I'm lokking forward to the "sexy fey". Which cover will she be on? Or is it he?

I'm lokking forward to the "sexy fey". Which cover will she be on? Or is it he?

She should be on the final cover.

I was wondering why Paizo changed the troll look that they had in classic monster revisited. While Chief Hargulka and the Bestiary cover troll are awesome, and I'm all for muscular green humanoid trolls over pseudo-plant trolls, I got to say the illustration inside the bestiary could be better.

Every time I see the Bestiary cover I hear Sean Bean's exasperated voice in my head ... "They've got a cave troll with them..."

I was wondering why Paizo changed the troll look that they had in classic monster revisited. While Chief Hargulka and the Bestiary cover troll are awesome, and I'm all for muscular green humanoid trolls over pseudo-plant trolls, I got to say the illustration inside the bestiary could be better.

We changed the look for a few reasons.

1) We all LOVED the big green monster Wayne created for the cover of the Bestiary, and troll was the absolute best fit.

2) When it comes to monsters that have a "classic" look in the game, we often strive to reinvent the look so that our version of a monster that's appeared in multiple editions of the game looks like the Pathfinder version, and not just the same-old.

3) I did not like the illustrations of trolls particularly much in Classic Monsters Revisited, and was glad to move in a new direction.

You could also put it down to that Trolls, like dogs come in all shapes and sizes without being separate species.

Chiefy here's nice and all, but it's not exactly a flattering pose... There's not a lot of contrast between his arm (which looks downright crocodilian) and his torso. I do appreciate the nod to nostaligia in his schnozz... still longer than average almost in his kisser.

I too am wondering what kind of dinosaur skull is on his shoulder!

--And the Vrockets Red Glare!

I'm noticing several Chiefs in this AP, they all seem pretty cool.

I'm noticing several Chiefs in this AP, they all seem pretty cool.

I'm waiting for a Goblin one on monday's blog :P

It's bee far too long since we've had goblin antics

While I like most of WAR's art, that troll on the cover of the Bestiary I did not like. This new version is much better, though I don't care for the teeth arrangement; which I blame on the WAR cover picture.

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

I'm noticing several Chiefs in this AP, they all seem pretty cool.

I'm waiting for a Goblin one on monday's blog :P

It's bee far too long since we've had goblin antics

Nope, no goblins in the River Kingdoms. I couldn't find the post for you but James said it's the wrong climate for them.

Goblins in Golarion tend to be found in temperate coastal areas. While a goblin would probably do pretty well in the River Kingdoms, there's just not a lot of them there, really.

Made a ranting post about this in the wrong place. Cooled down overnight. Came back to look at the art from a fresh perspective.

Nope. Still the stupidest troll I have ever seen, and not in a good way.

That jaw! The teeth don't mesh ANYWHERE! It's liable to bite its own tongue off every time it closes its mouth (which is, of course, not a big problem for your average troll), assuming it CAN close its mouth, which I don't think it can (which is a somewhat bigger problem).

I was so, so happy that the early Pathfinder illustrations actually looked like classic trolls, and now this... ;.;

I'm not a fan of this picture either. I actually had to stare at it to see his arm -- it blends in with his torso too much. Also, I am in agreement with Evil Midnight Lurker with regards to the teeth.

Ken

It's liable to bite its own tongue off every time it closes its mouth...

Does that matter? I mean, even if you don't take the huge under bite you can see in other illos into account, it's tongue would just grow right back. :P

The jaw disconcerts me too. I'd like to see a picture of them with their mouth closed, or a profile view even.

It'll seem odd if the only pictures of Pathfinder trolls are front facing snarls.

Check out both the Bestiary interior piece (I believe - sorry, don't have my copy right here) and (definitely) Cities of Golarion.

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

It's liable to bite its own tongue off every time it closes its mouth...

Does that matter? I mean, even if you don't take the huge under bite you can see in other illos into account, it's tongue would just grow right back. :P

Hey, I did say that wouldn't be a big problem. :)

The underbite is the bigger problem for me -- why do these trolls even HAVE teeth? They can't bite anything BUT their tongues!

Check out both the Bestiary interior piece (I believe - sorry, don't have my copy right here) and (definitely) Cities of Golarion.

*looks at the Bestiary interior piece*

*looks at the Bestiary cover*

*looks at the Bestiary interior piece*

...I don't see how you expect us to believe those are the same species. Even in a fantasy game.

Of the two, I have to say the interior piece has a slightly saner jaw arrangement. Slightly.

Initially, I was a little surprised by the reinterpretation of the Paizo Bestiary troll. But I quite like it now.

The jaw does almost look unhinged...and his massive teeth do look like they could bite his own tongue. But, in many ways I think that kind of makes for a more plausible interpretation of the brute.

After all, as ravenously hungry as they're depicted to be, it makes it so their massive maw could snap open in snake-like fashion to gorge itself. And, as others have pointed out, even if it had to pop its own bones out of joint to pull off that feat...or even if it did bite off its own tongue...regeneration puts it all back in order.

So, I'm cool with it.

Just my two-cents,
--Neil

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:

Check out both the Bestiary interior piece (I believe - sorry, don't have my copy right here) and (definitely) Cities of Golarion.

*looks at the Bestiary interior piece*

*looks at the Bestiary cover*

*looks at the Bestiary interior piece*

...I don't see how you expect us to believe those are the same species. Even in a fantasy game.

Of the two, I have to say the interior piece has a slightly saner jaw arrangement. Slightly.

We can't force all of our artists to use the same exact style; we wouldn't want to. Sorry our version of the troll isn't cutting it for you, but it's what we've settled on. Fortunately, there's 349 other monsters in the book to use if one like the troll looks silly.

I can totally see a troll's jaw unhinging a little, latching on, and then pulling back until the teeth "connect" for a solid bite. Doesn't really bother me at all.

Elephants manage to survive with even larger teeth. So do walruses. The trolls should be fine.

Elephants manage to survive with even larger teeth. So do walruses.

Which is amazing considering they can't regenerate. ;)

James brings up a good point. I think elephants need to be removed, they clearly shouldn't and can't exist.

James brings up a good point. I think elephants need to be removed, they clearly shouldn't and can't exist.

They don't exist. They're all in your head.

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

James brings up a good point. I think elephants need to be removed, they clearly shouldn't and can't exist.

They don't exist. They're all in your head.

No, Mark. Those are the pink elephants. The others? They're actually real. ;-)

Elephants manage to survive with even larger teeth. So do walruses. The trolls should be fine.

I'm sorely disappointed you didn't include sabertooth tigers among your examples. And here I thought you were this big fan of dinosaurs and prehistoric creatures. ;-)

No, Mark. Those are the pink elephants. The others? They're actually real. ;-)

I actually host the Pink Elephant every Fridays.

Back on topic, is that a Tatzlwyrm skull on Chief Hargulka's shoulder?

James Jacobs wrote:

Elephants manage to survive with even larger teeth. So do walruses. The trolls should be fine.

I'm sorely disappointed you didn't include sabertooth tigers among your examples. And here I thought you were this big fan of dinosaurs and prehistoric creatures. ;-)

Think it through. I'm arguing for how animals can function and live with big teeth.

Sabre-toothed tigers, being extinct, would shoot a big old hole in my argument.

SO! This topic never came up, okay! OKAY!?!? ;-)

To explain the extreme underbite of male trolls, you have to look at evolutionary theory.
It developed, of course, because of the extreme overbite of female trolls.
How else could they kiss each other?

To explain the extreme underbite of male trolls, you have to look at evolutionary theory.

It developed, of course, because of the extreme overbite of female trolls.
How else could they kiss each other?

Eskimo kisses.

Oh, I think I'm going to be sick.

No, Mark. Those are the pink elephants. The others? They're actually real. ;-)

Don't scare me like that - for a minute I thought you were serious that elephants were real!

As for the troll... I think James' explanation above finally fixes it for me a bit. Saying "Troll" and showing me the picture, I shake my head a bit (or did). But the Paizo peeps, seeing an awesome monstrous thing like that... I can see saying, "gotta be a troll!".

Couldn't the stunnted upper jaw be the result of having it's snout partly looped off and the regeneration process hasn't compleated yet. Or perhasps it is the other way around. Repeaded dislocation, shattering, and outright removal of the lower jaw may lead to increased growth in the regenerated tissue. The more it gets cut off the bigger and longer it grow back :-D.

I don't care for any of the troll images above. My iconic troll look I guess is best captured by the thing on the Guide to the River Kingdoms cover (which I assume is a Scrag).

The new guy looks too much like this to me.

I don't care for any of the troll images above. My iconic troll look I guess is best captured by the thing on the Guide to the River Kingdoms cover (which I assume is a Scrag).

The new guy looks too much like this to me.

Nah Thats a Merrow on the RK cover

We did indeed order the cover of "Guide to the River Kingdoms" to call for a scrag, but it did kinda end up looking not as much like a scrag as it might be a merrow (aquatic ogre). For now, I'm gonna say that's what it is; a merrow.

I'm fine with the troll change.

Back in 1979, this is probably what I thought a troll should look like. TSR sort of conditioned me to think of a troll as looking like a swamp hag out without a swamp.. all greeny and rubbery, and looking quite a bit like a plant man.

And 31 years later, I pretty much had adapted, and came to accept what has become the more traditional D&D interpretation of a troll.

I like this new troll. I'll adapt again.

See, I read the Three Billy Goats Gruff with woodcuts by Susan Blair in the first grade, and that's what I always thought a troll looked like. :)

See, I read the Three Billy Goats Gruff with woodcuts by Susan Blair in the first grade, and that's what I always thought a troll looked like. :)

With the screwed up spiral eyes?

Yeah.. I remember that too!

I'm noticing several Chiefs in this AP, they all seem pretty cool.

Well, this AP is about Kings and Lord High Marshals and whatnot, right? I mean, wouldn't it be a tad unfair if only the PCs had claim to titles and dominions?

I can totally see a troll's jaw unhinging a little, latching on, and then pulling back until the teeth "connect" for a solid bite. Doesn't really bother me at all.

+1. I love the new look! :)

See, I read the Three Billy Goats Gruff with woodcuts by Susan Blair in the first grade, and that's what I always thought a troll looked like. :)

I remember an adventure where three poor billy goats were polymorphed into ogres and went on a food bindge in an equally poor little village.

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

See, I read the Three Billy Goats Gruff with woodcuts by Susan Blair in the first grade, and that's what I always thought a troll looked like. :)

With the screwed up spiral eyes?

Yeah.. I remember that too!

Yay!