In the group I play in, we have a guy who the only thing he ever plays is a barbarian. Now I make theme characters, and they aren't always optimized. Almost all of the situations we get in are combat (mostly because this guy and his buddy invariably piss off everybody, but thats another story) and this guy has gotten so good at playing barbarians that, in my opinion, he pretty much completely invalidates my entire existence. In every encounter I feel completely useless, and when I tried to talk to the group about they just brushed it off and said 'so?'
We're starting a new gestalt campaign, and he's guaranteed to make some form of barbarian. Now I'm not trying to up stage him, I just want to hold my own and not feel useless. I wanted to make a wizard/???, maybe a wizard/sorcerer, and the race was probably going to be an elf or drow (preferably drow).
My question is this: how would I make an optimized drow wizard that could hold his/her own with the party barbarian???
What are you trying to do as a wizard? If you are trying to deal damage on par with any full BAB melee type you are fighting a lose battle.
Wizard and sorcs are cool because of they number of things they can do well.
If you want to make a BAB and feel useful you have to optimize also. You can make an optimized character and still be thematic.
Since this is gestalt what about a sorc/paladin? You should be able to out damage him when you smite, and you can still do other things at other times.
I wouldn't be adverse to the idea of a sorcerer/paladin, but we're kind of in an evil party (mostly because of one guy who refuses to play anything but CE).
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I wouldn't be adverse to the idea of a sorcerer/paladin, but we're kind of in an evil party (mostly because of one guy who refuses to play anything but CE).Sorcerer/Antipaladin?
Bard/Antipaladin would be pretty good, and you'd have more to do skill-wise.
You know with all my time gaming I would have never thought of that combination. Then again I used to be anti-bard, but recently I've come to love it and think it may be one of favorites now
Oracle of Bones/Bard
/thread
go mindchemist/wizard. you get reliable bonuses from discoveries, regular offence from bombs, obsene DCs from your cognogen, healing from alchemist, control from both with alchemist abilities handling short range and wizard handling mid-long range.
Martial Artist Monk/Empyreal Sorcerer or Zen Archer Monk/Empyreal Sorcerer. Both negate the MAD, and there's some nice synergies between monk and sorcerer, especially if you're gestalting. Plus both the Martial Artist and Zen Archer are real damage power houses.
Paladin/Monk is always another fun one. Sure, it's expensive on the attributes, but it's a helluva lotta fun to play (and Flurry+Smite is amazing!)
Go Arcane Archer. They are so easy to optimize and put out s&*$ loads of damage! You'll also out range, and if you buff initiative too you'll be guaranteed to drop enemies before the barbarian even knows whats happening!
vivisectionist rage chemist alchemist, synthesist summoner. You would stomp him in so bad it wouldn't be funny. However the mind chemist wizard is pretty beastly as well. If you make another thread we can help you build the character. However we won't build it for you. ;)
Go Arcane Archer. They are so easy to optimize and put out s+#% loads of damage! You'll also out range, and if you buff initiative too you'll be guaranteed to drop enemies before the barbarian even knows whats happening!
See, I was thinking arcane archer, but thought it wasn't that powerful. I'd love to make an arcane archer but what I'm hearing is wizard/mindchemist. Hhhhhmmmmm.......I'll post a few builds in a little while.
After blackbloodtroll mentioned something about a siege mage, that got me thinking (although its taken me a few days to look into this).
How feasible would it be to have a siege mage character that basically rode around on a mechanized or enchanted cannon (to make it move under its own power), with a bunch of kobold slaves to crew it, with only the starting cash for 5th level? I'd also probably dust off the old Tinker rules from the world of warcraft RPG, and make crazy, cannon-y, siege-y device thing-ys.
Also keep in mind I'm writing this at 2:30 in the morning and that the idea probably isn't all there.
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Here's my question, though. I know you are not trying to upstage this guy, but in ditching your obviously favorite way of playing (themed characters), you are capitulating to his style, and doing so under duress (the rest of the group don't care if you are playing in a style that makes you happy).
So the question is, after you play his game, his way, are you going to feel dirty and in need of a shower? Or unfulfilled? Because I think that is how I would feel about the whole situation.
If it were me, I'd leave that group. Not just because of the barbarous upstaging, but mainly because of the guy who seems to be in control of the entire group, including the GM, by forcing the flow of the entire game to fit his favorite evil alignment.
Let me put the whole thing in perspective: you play in a group that does not care if you have fun, and which is dominated by an unimaginative player who wants to rule all combat with his tenth barbarian, and another dude who likes to hold the whole table hostage to his whims.
May I try and guess that you usually play a rogue?
Barbarian are impressive in pathfinder: the greatest appeal is that, among all the melee classes, they are the only one who can move and full attack. There are other options which allow you to contribute to your max potential every round, and therefore are right there with power.
Archers are one. Focusing entirely on archery can be devastating, especially with a gestalt character. Going fighter/zen archer would make up for the highest constant damage dealing I can think of. ranger/zen archer is also unbelievably good, with spike damage higher than the fighter version and great synergy for wis. Generally, archers are most often than not overpowered: in a gestalt campaign even more so if you combine full bab classes (fighter and ranger) with medium bab classes with cool abilities (zen archer and inquisitor). You can't be marginalized with one of those unless your DM hates you.
Casters are the other. You can be king of damage dealing even with a sorcerer or a wizard, but you will have to heavily optimize to do so. Or you could be a battlefield controller to avoid direct competition, but you may still feel marginalized if your contribution is not properly appreciated by your fellow players.
Drow is not really the best option for a wizard, but then again wizard is regarded by a considerable portion of these boards as the strongest class even in pathfinder, so I think it's possible to be effective with one.
As for the siege engine part, I can't help you as I'm not really familiar with the rules for those.
Here's my question, though. I know you are not trying to upstage this guy, but in ditching your obviously favorite way of playing (themed characters), you are capitulating to his style, and doing so under duress (the rest of the group don't care if you are playing in a style that makes you happy).
So the question is, after you play his game, his way, are you going to feel dirty and in need of a shower? Or unfulfilled? Because I think that is how I would feel about the whole situation.
If it were me, I'd leave that group. Not just because of the barbarous upstaging, but mainly because of the guy who seems to be in control of the entire group, including the GM, by forcing the flow of the entire game to fit his favorite evil alignment.
Let me put the whole thing in perspective: you play in a group that does not care if you have fun, and which is dominated by an unimaginative player who wants to rule all combat with his tenth barbarian, and another dude who likes to hold the whole table hostage to his whims.
Although you came pretty close to hitting the nail on the head, it's not that simple. I live in a small town in Ontario, I'm lucky that I have a group period. I basically built this group from the ground up with my own two hands. We play at my house, use my books, my miniatures etc. And granted sometimes the way they play pisses me off to no end, I can't just ask them to leave, they're technically my friends. It also doesn't help that these two introduced me to half the group, so if I pissed them off and they left, so would half the group.
Crysknife makes a very good point about Archers - Archers are one of the very few playstyles that get their full range of attacks (and then some) almost every round.
Me personally, I like Paladin archers, but the Zen guys are outstanding too. If you want to rock the combat scene and you're trying to keep up with a Barbarian, I'd reccomend a well-built Archer.
Hhhhhmmmm....... I'm curious.....could this supposed awesomeness of an archer be replicated in a gunslinger???
Also, what book is reduce item in? I can't seem to find it.
Thanks Edger. I was looking under Reduce Item, no wonder I missed it.
You're not going to outdo the barbarian at being a barbarian. You need to focus on doing something different if you want to adequately share the spotlight with this guy.
A wizard could work, but you'll have to adjust to the idea that your job is to make it easier for the barbarian, not compete with him.
It seems like you have an adversarial view of another player, and that never ends well in a game about teamwork with clearly defined party roles.
Talk to the GM, and ask him to carve out a niche for your (non-direct damage) character concept in his adventures. Focus on being the combat-monster's friend and ally, and enjoy the game.
Mr. Lincoln, you raise a good point. Unfortunately, if I play a sort of buff character, at least one of the 'problem' players is the type to think it was him all along and go on and on about how awesome his character is no matter how big a role my buffs played in the victory.
Battlefield control on the other hand was never really 'my bag'. Although I've never tried one, I wouldn't know how to play it well, for the first reaction the party has to every encounter is 'CHARRRRRRGGGGGGGGEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!', meaning I couldn't just cast something like create pit or the rest of the party will fall in as well. No doubt I'd hear a heap of whining and complaining about how my obscuring mist is getting in their eyes and ruining all their combat fun.
Go Conjurer/Sage Sorcerer cross blooded Draconic blast with sorcerer and control with wizard, black tentacle everything then blast it to pieces over and over.
Edit: Add tattooed feature as well for +1 evocation level instead of lame claws, see if your gm will give you 2 familiars too :)
Mr. Lincoln, you raise a good point. Unfortunately, if I play a sort of buff character, at least one of the 'problem' players is the type to think it was him all along and go on and on about how awesome his character is no matter how big a role my buffs played in the victory.
Battlefield control on the other hand was never really 'my bag'. Although I've never tried one, I wouldn't know how to play it well, for the first reaction the party has to every encounter is 'CHARRRRRRGGGGGGGGEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!', meaning I couldn't just cast something like create pit or the rest of the party will fall in as well. No doubt I'd hear a heap of whining and complaining about how my obscuring mist is getting in their eyes and ruining all their combat fun.
I still urge you to rethink your spirit of competition and discuss it with the GM and the Barbarian player. A little inter-player competition can be fun if everyone's down with it, but that, too, requires open communication, so you may as well.
If your goal is to find a way to enjoy the campaign despite your compatriot's predilection for hogging all the bloodshed, then you may succeed. If your goal is merely to upstage the other player, not only is that more risky, it is less satisfying. You'd still want to make sure the GM is on your side for this... if you're feeling left out, I suspect the fault lies with him/her, and not the barbarian player.
Very few spotlight management issues can be solved without hurt feelings if people don't make an effort to communicate, especially the GM, whose job it is to begin with.
IF you want to "Chaaarrrrge", ditch the Drow.
Race = Halfling (small size, reason below)
Class 1 = Cavalier of the Order of the Cockatrice; pick a wolf steed and do mounted charges in 5' wide corridors.
Class 2 = Oracle. For a curse, pick Lame (you're mounted - who cares?) or something equally unhampering. Jury's out on the revelation, but most of them are pretty good.
The result is you have a spontaneous Charisma-based caster who can cast in full armor, and can use mounted (lance) charges without the problems of a large mount... and has a couple class abilities which are CHA-powered. PLUS has teamwork feats.
Doing mounted charges, you can rival the Barbarian in the kill count, despite being half his size. Plus you're more mobile than he is too, and can use heavy armor, so your AC is a few points higher (+1 more from size).
Master Summoner/Bard: Make lots of allies, then sing to their glory, fits your liking to buff and you can control some with mass quantities of minions that do your bidding.
If your goal is to find a way to enjoy the campaign despite your compatriot's predilection for hogging all the bloodshed
This is what I want. Although its a little annoying, the barbarian and the CE fighter's predilection for 'kill everything that moves' isn't the problem. I'm not trying to outdo them in damage, I just want to feel useful, whether its as the skill-monkey rogue or the buff caster (or the siege mage who rides around on a motorized cannon, really loving that idea). My complaint is the fact that the party only needs me to fill space.
...I live in a small town in Ontario, I'm lucky that I have a group period. I basically built this group from the ground up with my own two hands. We play at my house, use my books, my miniatures etc. And granted sometimes the way they play pisses me off to no end, I can't just ask them to leave, they're technically my friends. It also doesn't help that these two introduced me to half the group, so if I pissed them off and they left, so would half the group.
Don't necessarily be too quick to underestimate small Ontario towns. I live in one of those too, and I was actually surprised by the number of gamers, or people willing to become gamers around. Though admittedly it takes a while to learn where to find them in any given area, so I can understand a reluctance to just get up and leave what sounds like the only local group you're aware of.
Well with the summoner/bard build you can make flankers and buff everyone, your eidelon can be the skill monkey/scout.
Gluttony, you wouldn't happen to live in the Halton Region, would you?
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Does you party have a healer? Cos Barbarians needs lots of heals... and you could the source of those heals.
If you want to be useful dealing DPS, I suggest a Archer archetype of the fighter or weapon mater archetype and go range damage.
Properly build, you should be able to attack even at melee range without AO and can AO anything that moves in a 15 feet radius from you. (look up the Snap Shot and improve Snap shot line.)
Not too sure what you would gestalt it with, but as someone above said, Zen Archer should a good mix.
At higher levels you are really a fighter, that happens to use a bow and have excellent battlefield control.
Or
If you want unparalleled battle field,the ability to take on a large number of enemies at the same time AND have lots of uses, a Master Summoner is ideal.
You can Summon, Summon and Summon some more and just flood the battlefield with Monsters.
Remember if every square around a enemy is filled with your monsters, the barbarian is not going to get his attacks. :P
You can also use your monsters to scout, since they last mins per level.
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On another note, what do the other players feel about the barbarian? Are any of them damage dealers as well? or do they all have niche roles?
Gluttony, you wouldn't happen to live in the Halton Region, would you?
Ack, nope, I'm in the other direction from Toronto as it happens.
The thing here is that there's so many things you can do to augment him that you're better off not trying to feel useful "on your own", but find themes that synergize with his.
I have a similar problem with my own group, I'm usually a good alignment, and have a chaotic evil group, and they love being evil. I finally decided if you can't beat 'em... join 'em.
The earlier Bard/Antipaladin suggestion for example, would play powerfully into what he does. You'd share his love of carnage, buff him, gone the right way you could even make a supermount charger build.
Another prospect you may not have considered is neutral evil druid. Epic Meebo posted a fascinating homebrew variant that wildshapes it's animal companion. Wildshape the animal companion into something with 4+natural attacks and let the barbarian ride it. If your DM won't allow that - just go big cat. Charge, medium BAB and three natural attacks, the barbarian can still ride it, and both get full attack rounds on charges. Lots of story mileage available with that one. (Just say the two of you are out for a common cause that lets you be evil with sympathy - someone killed his wife/your sister and you two want to see them and everyone in your way dead.)
An inquisitor might also be nice, give the barbarian teamwork feats that fit the situation. See if he'd be cool with running a good cop/bad cop routine with you and bend him to the true purpose of evil: extort people to do your bidding instead of killing them.
A wizard or cleric could just cast enlarge person on him. You actually have alot of options for buffing him as a wizard. Polymorph tricks, etc. Just imagine your bloodthirsty barbarian friend as a large flying creature with 3x attacks, rage and full BAB. the seige-mage could be an option, but I don't think that'll mesh well with the savage makeup of things.
You could also see if the DM would let you be some kind of tiny fay wizard or sorc with a tiny devil familiar and both you and familiar could ride his shoulder pretending to be his conscience.
Options abound! :D
You said that this it a gestalt campaign: any idea what the main powerplayers will gestalt their barbarian and fighter with? This could really make a difference in what we should suggest you.
As for dealing with optimizers, let me tell you this. Most optimizers rejoice in building strong characters, but it does not necessarily means that it has to be theirs.
I LOVE when the other players ask me for help with their ideas: they think of a concept, I try to explain to the best of my understanding what the concept could do efficiently and what is hopeless and thus not worth optimizing and together we look for feats and options that can make their ideas work. I try my best to not hijack their concept in the name of optimization (and thus you have slightly sub-optimal choices here and there) and in the end everyone is happy: they can contributing better and thus feels less marginalized, I can play optimized character without feeling guilty for ruining their day and the GM comes into contact with his feminine side while crying like a little girl.
That is possible, of course, only if they are 1) kind of mature and 2) optimizing for real. Most balance problems I've seen are not due to strongly designed characters but from to bad mistakes (quite often caused by incompetent GMs) and outright cheats.
Well Kazarath, I suggest staying away from the Rogue unless your GM is willing to help you out and make sure you get your chances (not just in combat). Skills are not a terribly well executed part of the game when it comes to spotlight balance. They can work just fine, but require an attentive GM who does more than pick a DC off the top of his head, and keeps the skill trials coming.
There's always a bard if you want something to do every combat. Give your sociopath companions a +4 to hit and +2 damage... (the auld inspire courage + heroism) they'll appreciate you, if not actively, they'll subconsciously strive to keep you around.
If you haven't read Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards, do it now. The smug, self-satisfied wizard attitude in there is your best chance at competing for the spotlight. In the end, you make the melee people's life easy, but you get to claim that you did all the work. Nobody really does all the work, but you are in a pissing contest, no?
Good luck with this. Try to keep your eye on the real (interpersonal) dynamic and don't get bogged down thinking that the right mechanical choice will solve this problem.
Master summoner/Zen Archer. It can pretty much solo most campaign situations.
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ranger / scout rouge, go archery style and get something you can ride, probably best to go a small character so you can move around easier. At level 8 when ever you move at least 10ft you get sneak attacks, and if you move up to your mounts speed you can still make a full attack with a bow, enjoy the huge amounts of sneak attacks.
Well I decided to drop the drow (which kind of invalidates the thread), and made a Ratfolk Wizard/Alchemist whose whole point is to basically be the party's steroid dealer. The great thing is I think I managed to make him optimized while still remaining thematic. He's kind of based on a Skaven Master Moulder from Warhammer. I was going to give him a mancathcer to better fit the theme but after I read the rules realized it would be a terrible idea.
Anywho, enough of my ramblings, here's the build!
Ratfolk Transmuter/Oenopion Researcher Vivisectionist 5
NE Small humanoid (ratfolk)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +11
AC 15, touch 13, flat-footed 13 (+2 Armour, +2 Dex, +1 size)
hp 40
Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +5
Speed 20 ft.
Melee dagger +2 (1d3–2/19–20)
Ranged light crossbow +6 (1d6/19–20)
Special Attacks Sneak Attack 3d6, Swarming
Wizard Spells Known
1st – Disguise Self, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Mage Armour, Magic Weapon, Jump, Reduce Person
2nd – Alter Self, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace
3rd – Haste, Keen Edge
Opposition Schools Enchantment, Evocation
Alchemist Formulae Known
1st – Comprehend Languages, Crafter's Fortune, Cure Light Wounds, Disguise Self, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Identify, Jump, True Strike
2nd – Alter Self, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility
Discoveries Infusion, Tumour Familiar (Rat), Vestigial Arms x2
Str 6, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 19, Wis 12, Cha 12
Base Atk +3; CMB +1; CMD 13
Feats Brew Potion, Extra Discovery x2
Skills Appraise +11, Craft (Alchemy) +14, Disable Device +7, Knowledge (Arcana) +8, Knowledge (Engineering) +12, Knowledge (Nature) +12, Perception +11, Spellcraft +12, Stealth +11, Use Magic Device +8; Racial Modifiers +2 Craft (alchemy), +4 Handle Animal to influence rodents, +2 Perception, +2 Use Magic Device
Languages Common, Aklo, Dwarven, Goblin, Orc
Gear Dagger, Light Crossbow, Alchemist's Kit, Spell Component Pouch, Bracers of Armour +2, Hat of Disguise, Handy Haversack, 4 Potions of Cure Light Wounds
So, whatdya think?
To explain why his HP is so high, its a house rule we have. Also the reason he has so many Alchemist formulae is that it doesn't say anywhere he can't copy spells from his own spellbook.