We're going to be starting a Legacy of Fire Campaign. So I'd like to build a Ninja who specializes in a Scorpion Whip and Shruiken's, focusing on Sneak Attack damage bonuses. Think of the assassins in the Prince of Persia movie. We have a group of 4; a Paladin, Magus, Oracle, and finally me...
We have a 20 pt build, so here are my thoughts:
Half-Elf
Dex Bonus
Alternate Racial Trait - Ancestral Arms (Whip)
STR-10
DEX-18
CON-12
INT-13
WIS-10
CHA-14
The part that I need help with is building a Ninja that will give me the greatest chance of being able to use my Sneak Attack damage bonus. Specializing in the Whip requires quite a few feats, and of course there is Feint as well as Trip and Disarm. I'm use to playing fighter types that do a ton a damage every turn, so I'd like to do something similar with a Ninja so I dont get frustrated with trying something new.
Thoughts or advice?
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Biggest problem is that at until you get Imp Whip Master, a whip doesn't threaten squares you can reach, thus you can't flank for Sneak Attack damage (and until you get Whip Mastery, you'll provoke attacks of opporunity for doing so!). If you want a weapon that feels like a whip, look into the Urumi or Nine-Section-Whip from UC; they both do do solid damage and have the distracting quality for +2 with Bluff checks to feint (with the Nine-Section-Whip being better for also having Trip and Disarm features versus the greater crit range on the Urumi).
If you really want reach, look into the Kusarigama. Besides being a favored ninja weapon, it gives you the versatility of having a reach weapon you can still threaten adjacent creatures with and do either slashing or bludgeoning damage and is a double weapon if you need to risk two attacks for two sneak attack attempts against an adjacent enemy.
If you want to stick with the Scorpion Whip, you'll want to go into the Imp Whip Mastery line and get Weapon Finesse to actually hit with your strike. For early level, look into the Wave Strike feat in UC; that'll help in the first round of combat for a nasty surprise attack since your feint will be swift instead of a standard or move action.
Otherwise, good luck with this idea!
Edit: Left Imp Feint instead of Imp Whip Mastery
Sincerely,
BPC
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Biggest problem is that at until you get Imp Whip Master, a whip doesn't threaten squares you can reach, thus you can't flank for Sneak Attack damage (and until you get Whip Mastery, you'll provoke attacks of opporunity for doing so!).
You don't need to threaten the square you attack with a whip in order to get the flanking bonus:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
Ubiquitous is right, you can make a melee reach attack and get flanking bonus. Only your partner doesnt get flanking this way.
What you actually want is Combat Expertise and then Gang Up, so you get SA when the Magus, the Oracle and the Paladin threaten someone.
If in need ask the Oracle to carry a reach weapon too for greater threat range.
You yourself don´t need to threaten early levels, so you can wait for whip mastery line feats.
Also go for weapon finesse and forget about STR, only buff DEX if you want shuriken and whip combined. Your damage output depends on SA.
I recommend vanishing trick for ninja too and later invisible blade.
The wave strike is a good idea too, but only in the first or surprise round. After you need improved feint and greater over the levels.
But in team combat, gang up is probably your best bet if your team is not totally silly.
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Do you realize the scorpion whip has changed since legacy of fire came out? Think it got Hit real bad.
I understand you may not have this option but ask and your DM may say yes. The 3.5 book called the book of nine swords has a stance that lets you count as flanking as long as you and an ally are adjacent to the same foe. No need to be in a straight line anymore to flank. It is a stance mthat can be taken with one level as a swords age base class. There is also a feat that allows you to take the stance but I think it requires another feat that would give you a martial maneuver. I love the swordsage class and it can gel well with the ninja and or rogue.
Consider multiclassing with ftr so you can get a better bab to hit more often and get the bonus feats to handle all those feats you want. The half elf multi talented trait would mean you still get a favored class bonus every level.
You would have to take weapon finess or at least boost your str to 14. Even with a str of 14(mediocore) with master work and weapon focus, your chance to hit are not very strong with a 3/4bab.
If you do not get the flank, your damage is worthless, think hard about weather you want to trust your companions to supply you with that flank.
We're going to be starting a Legacy of Fire Campaign. So I'd like to build a Ninja who specializes in a Scorpion Whip and Shruiken's, focusing on Sneak Attack damage bonuses. Think of the assassins in the Prince of Persia movie. We have a group of 4; a Paladin, Magus, Oracle, and finally me...
We have a 20 pt build, so here are my thoughts:
Half-Elf
Dex Bonus
Alternate Racial Trait - Ancestral Arms (Whip)STR-10
DEX-18
CON-12
INT-13
WIS-10
CHA-14The part that I need help with is building a Ninja that will give me the greatest chance of being able to use my Sneak Attack damage bonus. Specializing in the Whip requires quite a few feats, and of course there is Feint as well as Trip and Disarm. I'm use to playing fighter types that do a ton a damage every turn, so I'd like to do something similar with a Ninja so I dont get frustrated with trying something new.
Thoughts or advice?
Just to throw in a couple of other ideas, why do you want to go for ninja? And why sneak attack?
1. Have you considered taking like 8 levels of rogue (scout archetype), then stack alchemist (vivisectionist archetype)? Your sneak attack from different sources stacks, and you can always sneak attack when you charge or move 10 feet in a round. Plus you get the "spells" of an alchemist together with mutagen and other boosts, thus being able to mimic much of the ninja class.
2. I have built a ninja-like character (theme, not class) with ranger, using exotic weapon proficiency wakizashi and mimicing the spells as Naruto-like ninjutsu abilities. I think this could be an option for you as well.
3. Some bards get sneak attack, like the sandman. Built correctly, you can mimic ninja as well.
4. If you want sneak attack, make sure to get the gang-up feat.
5. If you play with stealth allowing sneak attack a halfling trait gives you a great boost for that. Maximize you stealth, pick fast stealth as rogue talent, possibly put a skill focus in there and simply hide after each shot or attack - it's just an increased penalty.
6. There is a feat which allows you to make an attack of opportunity with a ranged attack when an ally hits an opponent in melee. The damage quickly adds up, and with gang up a lot of these situations allow sneak attack.
7. Improving your ranged sneak attack chances are a great way to boost your damage reliably and get off lots of attacks.
not sure if it's what Sangalor meant but why not make a ninja/Scout, they replace different things, so they stack.You have like a 99% chance for a sneak attack once per round, but it's no two-weapon flanker (who aren't that good).
As you can get your move action, together with shurikens and reach, you should be fine.
No need to multiclass with vivisectionist.
Or be a pure vivisectionist and you can get 24h improved invisibility much later.
not sure if it's what Sangalor meant but why not make a ninja/Scout, they replace different things, so they stack.You have like a 99% chance for a sneak attack once per round, but it's no two-weapon flanker (who aren't that good).
As you can get your move action, together with shurikens and reach, you should be fine.
No need to multiclass with vivisectionist.Or be a pure vivisectionist and you can get 24h improved invisibility much later.
You cannot multiclass rogue with ninja since ninja is an alternate class. That's why I specifically left it out and used the vivisectionist ;-) Of course, sandman bard would work as well, though the sneak attack would be less...
You cannot multiclass rogue with ninja since ninja is an alternate class. That's why I specifically left it out and used the vivisectionist ;-) Of course, sandman bard would work as well, though the sneak attack would be less...not sure if it's what Sangalor meant but why not make a ninja/Scout, they replace different things, so they stack.You have like a 99% chance for a sneak attack once per round, but it's no two-weapon flanker (who aren't that good).
As you can get your move action, together with shurikens and reach, you should be fine.
No need to multiclass with vivisectionist.Or be a pure vivisectionist and you can get 24h improved invisibility much later.
Oh, and be sure not to mistake archetype ("scout", "spy" etc.) with alternate class (ninja for rogue, samurai for cavalier etc.). They are not the same and cannot be combined.
are you sure about that? the way I understood it, is that alternate classes are just a fancy name for archetypes that replace so many things that they are written like whole class. (don't want to derail the thread, sorry, just a quick link or answer would be nice)
are you sure about that? the way I understood it, is that alternate classes are just a fancy name for archetypes that replace so many things that they are written like whole class. (don't want to derail the thread, sorry, just a quick link or answer would be nice)
Yup, I am sure. Look here, it's in the books right at the beginning of the chapter:
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.
and here we got the opposite, I believe.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features.
I'll make a new thread for this discussion.
and here we got the opposite, I believe.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features.
I'll make a new thread for this discussion.
I don't see that. For all purposes ninja is another class, so you cannot rogue archetypes. Additionally, you must not multiclass the two.
So much for digression... :-)
+1 for Leonhart.
Since an alternate class has no alternate class features, you can take every archetype you want. In this case poison use and no trace count as trapfinding and trap sense.
Also a ninja gets invisible blade what is greater invisibility.
So how do you get a sneak attack?
"The rogue's attack deals extra damage (called "precision damage") anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."
That leaves:
-flanking: gang-up, outflank(Teamwork feat), enfilading fire (teamwork feat ranged)
-Surprise attacks (in surprise round): wave strike, betrayer, deft palms etc.
-being invisible/attacking from stealth: vanishing trick/invisible blade; skill focus stealth+hellcat stealth+(dodge,mobility,spring attack); hide in plain sight; smoking bombs.
-conditions: blinded, cowering, flat-footed, helpless, invisible (you, see above), paralyzed, stunned, unconscious: blinded (dirty trick, fighting with a net and according feats, rest ask wizard or monk or use some wands with UMD.
-feinting: improved/greater feint, several other feint feats.
-scout archetype with charge, only functions every other round. A good option is taking a kitsune and vulpine pounce so you get pounce on your charge.
-sniping
A combination of 2 is always best.
From all of them, gang up and vanishing trick are the earliest and fastest accesible, also both useable fairly often, but go figure yourself.
Specific rules overrides general rules. In this istance, rules regarding alternate class (a specific case of alternate archetype) overrider the general multi-archetype rule.
Specific rules overrides general rules. In this istance, rules regarding alternate class (a specific case of alternate archetype) overrider the general multi-archetype rule.
Bring evidence.
At most its questionable if you can replace poison use and no trace.Stuff like uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge there is no doubt about. Also taking an archetype is not taking levels in the original class.
Specific rules overrides general rules. In this istance, rules regarding alternate class (a specific case of alternate archetype) overrider the general multi-archetype rule.Bring evidence.
Really? Does this really need evidence? I thought was common knowledge.
Are you arguinge that the specific rules for
Whirlwind Blitz (Ex)
At 20th level, a mobile fighter can make a full-attack action as a standard action. He may also use the Whirlwind Attack feat as a standard action.
are usless because does not override the general rule of full-attack being a full-round action?
Are you arguing that you can't use rapier with weapon finess because the specific rule that
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
ain't enought to superseed the general rule that you can use weapon finess only with light weapon?
Sorry but, get real.
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and here we got the opposite, I believe.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features.
I'll make a new thread for this discussion.I don't see that. For all purposes ninja is another class, so you cannot rogue archetypes. Additionally, you must not multiclass the two.
So much for digression... :-)
Sheesh, again with this ?
An alternate class is only a glorified archetype. That's from the game developers's words themselves AND the rules. The only difference is that it has it's own table written down and iconic character drawn.
"An alternate class operates exactly as a base class,"
Base classes can take archetypes for their classes.
"save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa."
Hurr, like an archetype, how strange !
An alternate class is still considered in any way as an archetype, and as thus you can take archetypes on an alternate class if you still have the class features that the archetypes replaces.
...
Sheesh, again with this ?An alternate class is only a glorified archetype. That's from the game developers's words themselves
Please provide the link. I would be highly interested in that :-)
AND the rules.
I disagree. I read them differently. I am ready to be convinced otherwise - providing the abovementioned link would go a long way there :-)
The only difference is that it has it's own table written down and iconic character drawn."An alternate class operates exactly as a base class,"
Base classes can take archetypes for their classes.
"save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa."
Hurr, like an archetype, how strange !
An alternate class is still considered in any way as an archetype, and as thus you can take archetypes on an alternate class if you still have the class features that the archetypes replaces.
No, nowhere it says that. I do understand why someone would interpret it this way, I just not see it in the rules.
And Richard created a new thread for this discussion, we should continue there :-)