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Hello, just seeing if someone could clarify something for me. Just to make sure I'm reading it right. It matters for a character of mine. I have character that going to take a level of Cleric(following Calistria because he was raised by his elven priestess mother before she was killed by his human father. Which in turn, he killed his father for the act..etc etc. Short version of his story.) Now on to the question. I'll be getting Exotic W/P (Whip) when I take the level of Cleric. That doesn't make me proficient with a Scorpion Whip. Just I can use it as a Whip? Also, it only has 10ft reach where the Whip has 15ft reach? That's all correct right? It matters for feats and such that I might or could take.
UC Scorpion Whip - "Scorpion whip 5 gp 1d3 1d4 ×2 — 3 lbs S performance" = No Reach, Lethal Damage.
"Scorpion Whip: This whip has a series of razor-sharp blades and fangs inset along its tip. It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip."
D20PFSRD Scorpion Whip - their take on that last statement = "Weapon Feature(s): performance (plus disarm, reach, and trip if you are proficient with whip.)"
Adventurer's Armory Entry from Errata "Scorpion whip 5 gp 1d3 1d4 ×2 — 3 lbs. S disarm, reach, trip"
So the Scorpion Whip with Proficiency in EWP Whip is a reach weapon of 15' with some of the limitaions of the whip - Counts as a ranged weapon, does not threaten. It does not have the limitation of Non-leathal damage vs armoured opponents.
UC Scorpion Whip - "Scorpion whip 5 gp 1d3 1d4 ×2 — 3 lbs S performance" = No Reach, Lethal Damage.
"Scorpion Whip: This whip has a series of razor-sharp blades and fangs inset along its tip. It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip."D20PFSRD Scorpion Whip - their take on that last statement = "Weapon Feature(s): performance (plus disarm, reach, and trip if you are proficient with whip.)"
Adventurer's Armory Entry from Errata "Scorpion whip 5 gp 1d3 1d4 ×2 — 3 lbs. S disarm, reach, trip"
So the Scorpion Whip with Proficiency in EWP Whip is a reach weapon of 15' with some of the limitaions of the whip - Counts as a ranged weapon, does not threaten. It does not have the limitation of Non-leathal damage vs armoured opponents.
Thanks...I needed a second set of eyes. I wanted Scorpion Whip, because things I fight generally aren't alive, but 15ft reach was a nice benefit of the whip. You think the could just say. Scorpion Whip is a Whip that does Lethal damage.
Does this mean, to use it as a whip you need EWP (exotic weapon proficiency) (whip) and EWP (scorpion whip), or just EWP whip?
Just to jump on the whip-questioning bandwagon:
Are players allowed to use the Adventurer's Armory (AA) version of scorpion whip, rather than Ultimate Combat's (UC) version, when playing Pathfinder Society, or is it only the newest version (UC)? If the latter, what if one only has the AA book in order to show the GM as an Additional Resources?
My whip-fighter uses a +1 Mighty whip dagger +3 (like a compset long bow +3).
Its too late to to think about where i found it... Oh it does 1d6+4 dam.
My whip-fighter uses a +1 Mighty whip dagger +3 (like a compset long bow +3).
Its too late to to think about where i found it... Oh it does 1d6+4 dam.
Arms and Equpiment Guide 3.0, or the old Sword and Fist 3.0
Ever since 3.5 you no longer need the Might part of a Whip. With the change to a One-Handed Melee weapon you can apply your strength bonus on any whip at any time.
Part of the reason I don't like Ulitmate Combats retake on the Scorpion Whip (which is just a confusing mess) is that they made it a Light Weapon.
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Yup; if you're proficient with a whip, you can use a scorpion whip. Doesn't mean you can use a scorpion whip to do all the things a whip can do, though... just what a scorpion whip can do.
James, in one of my games here on the boards, there's some confusion with the Scorpion Whip from Ultimate Combat.This line is the cause of said confusion: If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.
Does this mean if you are proficient with a whip, you are also proficient with a scorpion whip? or does it mean that if you can use a whip and scorpion whip, you can perform trip and disarm attempts with the scorpion whip, which according to the weapons chart appears you can not do normally??
In regards to the (good) AA Scorpion Whip:
A scorpion whip uses the same rules as the whip in the PFRPG Core Rulebook, except (1) it deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses, and (2) the stats in the table.
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Happy that they have changed that (JJ's Responce). The problem we now have is that there are possibly 2 weapons with the same name, but different effects(Given the date of SKR's statement - before the existance of UC):
AA Scorpion Whip: Reach, disarm etc
UC Scorpion Whip: Perform, no reach, no disarm
So does the AA whip still exist? (If it does then you will have to have a copy of the AA for PFS refs to read)
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Yeah, this is really confusing to me.
Besides that there are multiple version of the whip, in resources that are all PFS legal themselves...
The reach aspect is just incoherent to me. Whips have 15´ Pseudo-Reach. Scorpion Whips don´t have any Reach.
So if you can use a scorpion whip as a whip, does that mean you can use it with 15´ Pseudo-Reach?
i.e. you can choose how you use it/what Reach it has?
Does that mean you can also inflict non-lethal damage without penalty if you wish?
I hit the FAQ button on this. I don´t know why this is so complicated. It´s freaking EQUIPMENT.
according to SKR, since you use the stats in the table. since the stats for the scorpion whip no longer have Reach, just Performance, it no longer has reach. no longer has disarm.
Its now just an exotic 1d4/x2 slashing weapon...
its ... worse than a dagger.
Where is this ruling?
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Grick's post up above.
it is referring to the stats in the Adventurer's Armory,
but since the stats in Ultimate Combat are the most recent printing, its the material that is now relevant.
so if you're proficient with a whip, or scorpion whip, you can use a scorpion whip as a 1d4/x2 Light melee weapon. you can use finesse because it is light, and you threaten the squares you can reach with it. and you don't provoke an attack of opportunity when using it.
if you're proficient with a whip, you can use a whip from the core rules
to do 1d3/x2 non-lethal, reach, trip, disarm. the reach is 15 ft. you can weapon finesse even though it is not a light weapon. you don't threaten the squares you can reach, and you provoke an attack of opportunity as if you had attacked with a ranged weapon when you use it.
That's not how I read his explanation. He just seems to be clarifying that the scorpion whip is treated in all mechanical ways as a normal whip except it's a light weapon that does 1d4 lethal slashing damage unimpeded by armor, plus has the performance quality. Really, it's only when someone demands to take EWP (scorpion whip) instead of EWP (whip) that you get any semantical issues with the weird way UC went about explaining the weapon.
It's essentially a superior whip. The only benefit to the old-fashioned core rulebook whip is if you want to deal nonlethal damage without taking a -4 penalty (like when you don't want to permanently damage the slips).
There are two weapons that are both called Scorpion Whip.
Scorpion Whip from the Adventurer's Armory is awesome. It's a whip that deals lethal damage even to creatures with armor bonuses, has a better die, and shares proficiency with the whip.
Sean K Reynolds (Developer) says about it: "A scorpion whip uses the same rules as the whip in the PFRPG Core Rulebook, except (1) it deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses, and (2) the stats in the table."
The Scorpion Whip Gladiator Weapon from Ultimate Combat is a confusing mess.
James Jacobs (Creative Director) says about it: "if you're proficient with a whip, you can use a scorpion whip. Doesn't mean you can use a scorpion whip to do all the things a whip can do, though... just what a scorpion whip can do."
Which I think means the (UC) scorpion whip doesn't have reach, trip, or disarm. It's also Light instead of One-handed.
This Thread has some FAQ requests, if anyone is interested.
There are two weapons that are both called Scorpion Whip.
Scorpion Whip from the Adventurer's Armory is awesome. It's a whip that deals lethal damage even to creatures with armor bonuses, has a better die, and shares proficiency with the whip.
Sean K Reynolds (Developer) says about it: "A scorpion whip uses the same rules as the whip in the PFRPG Core Rulebook, except (1) it deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses, and (2) the stats in the table."
The Scorpion Whip Gladiator Weapon from Ultimate Combat is a confusing mess.
James Jacobs (Creative Director) says about it: "if you're proficient with a whip, you can use a scorpion whip. Doesn't mean you can use a scorpion whip to do all the things a whip can do, though... just what a scorpion whip can do."
Which I think means the (UC) scorpion whip doesn't have reach, trip, or disarm. It's also Light instead of One-handed.
This Thread has some FAQ requests, if anyone is interested.
Well, I have a PFS half-orc lore warden with the beastmaster trait who uses dual scorpion whips, so I'm going to go with the, "SKR is right and James is wrong," approach until someone forcibly stops me. ;)
Didn't the update for AA postdate UC? I always mix up how to apply what is the official statblock for multiprint stuff from AA ever since it got a modified second printing.
Well, I have a PFS half-orc lore warden with the beastmaster trait who uses dual scorpion whips, so I'm going to go with the, "SKR is right and James is wrong," approach until someone forcibly stops me.
They were basically talking about different weapons. The SKR quote predates Ultimate Combat by over a year and has nothing to do with the Scorpion Whip presented there.
The question basically hinges on whether the UCSW is a different item that does different stuff but has the same name as something else, or if it was supposed to be a modification to how the old item worked. (And if so, how?)
Either way, you should be expecting some major table variation using any kind of fancy whip in PFS.
-edit-
Didn't the update for AA postdate UC?
Errata for the first printing of the Adventurer's Armory was released July 21, 2011.
According to Wikipedia, Ultimate Combat was released in August 2011.
Either way, you should be expecting some major table variation using any kind of fancy whip in PFS.
Well yeah, a GM's table variation telling me my scorpion whips aren't going to work that way with my whip proficiency falls under the, "forcibly stops," category.
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yeah its a big pain for organized play. im only levelling my castlevania homage via GM credit right now. =P
Even if there are two versions of the Scorpion whip, and they're separate weapons with the same name ( a seriously confusing situation, i'm sending Paizo my Tylenol bill ),
the AA scorpion whip would be usable as presented in AA / errata.
a weapon with the reach, disarm and trip, 1d4/x2 lethal, one handed melee weapon. you would threaten squares 10 ft out from you but not adjacent squares. it only has a 10' reach since the description does not have the same text as the whip's description for the core book, its not finesseable, but you can make attacks of opportunity with it.
But since AA and Ultimate Combat reprint several weapons ( like the Scissor, Mere Club, etc. ), its MUCH more likely that the Ultimate Combat Scoripion Whip is the updated/latest version of the weapon.
Lets face it, paizo does NOT have love for chains and whips. They took away the reach on a Spiked Chain, but gave us the Kusuri Gama, and the Meteor Hammer. They made the Meteor Hammer 1d10 originally, before realizing that a 1d10/1d10 19-20/x2 double weapon that always has reach is a little ridiculous considering the rest of the weapons. And now they've mistakenly snipped the tip on the scorpion whip.
I would love AN answer on the Ultimate Combat scorpion whip in form of a FAQ or Errata, so that I could know as a PFS GM, and a player with a whip build character, a way to end the table variation on it once and for all.
the AA scorpion whip would be usable as presented in AA / errata.
a weapon with the reach, disarm and trip, 1d4/x2 lethal, one handed melee weapon. you would threaten squares 10 ft out from you but not adjacent squares. it only has a 10' reach since the description does not have the same text as the whip's description for the core book, its not finesseable, but you can make attacks of opportunity with it.
The AA Scorpion Whip does not threaten any squares. It has a 15' reach, just like the core Whip. You cannot make Attacks of Opportunity with it.
The only difference between a Whip and an AA Scorpion Whip is exactly what SKR said: lethal damage even to creatures with armor, and stats in the table.
The stats in the table are cost, damage dice, critical, range, weight, and special.
The weapon's threatening squares is neither a factor of lethal damage, nor a stat in that table, so it is not changed.
The amount of reach is also not a factor of lethal damage, nor a stat in that table, so it's also not changed.
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oh i see, the same rules as in the core book for the whip, except the stats in the table.
the weapons reach IS a property in the table, its a common tag that is defined in the core book. The whip in core book is the only exception. it is the only weapon with a 15' reach for medium creatures.
that still doesn't extend the reach from 10 ft to 15 feet. that is not a rule of the whip, that is a property of the weapon. the rules for whips are that they provoke an AoO like ranged and don't threaten within its area.
Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
if they wanted to be clear, they would state an exception to the standard Reach property with the scorpion whip's entry like they do in the Whip entry.
There's still a problem of the Adventurer's Armory scorpion whip being the same weapon as the Ultimate Combat whip. Two weapons can't exist with the same name.
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the problem with SKRs statement is that its made before the release of ultimate combat. the new bag of worms got opened with reprinting the weapon again, and not clarifying anything.
would it really be a lot of extra work to print this:
Scorpion Whip: This whip has a series of razor sharp blades and fangs inset along its tip. It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip.
The scorpion whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
Using a scorpion whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a scorpion whip sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
Though I guess since AA and UC both have similar text for proficiency, using the scorpion whip as a whip, the only thing it really loses in UC is Trip and Disarm. The reach entry was already an abnormality in the Reach rules, and the whip text itself says its reach. Which is kind of saying: " sure you can use this whip to deal 1d4 lethal, but you can't trip or disarm someone with it as easily as you could with a regular whip. "
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We can only hope Ultimate Equipment will fix this and not make it worse...
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a scorpion whip sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
Except the UC Scorpion Whip gladiator weapon is a light weapon. Unlike the AASW which is one-handed.