I'm trying to figure out how to calculate the damage for an Intensified + Empowered + Maximized Burning Hands spell...assuming a caster level high enough to pull it off.
I'm coming up with 15d4+40...but something tells me I've got it all wrong.
Can someone explain how this is calculated correctly?
I'm trying to figure out how to calculate the damage for an Intensified + Empowered + Maximized Burning Hands spell...assuming a caster level high enough to pull it off.
I'm coming up with 15d4+40...but something tells me I've got it all wrong.
Can someone explain how this is calculated correctly?
5d4 base.
Intensify makes it 10d4.
Maximize makes it 40.
Empower adds 50% of the random variable, so 10d4 x 1.5.
Adding them together, you get 40 + (10d4 / 2).
So an IEM burning Hands averages to about 65 damage.
I'm trying to figure out how to calculate the damage for an Intensified + Empowered + Maximized Burning Hands spell...assuming a caster level high enough to pull it off.
I'm coming up with 15d4+40...but something tells me I've got it all wrong.
Can someone explain how this is calculated correctly?
not sure where you've pulled +40 from
Burning hands is 5d4
Intensified increases that to 10d4
Maximised makes that 40dmg
Empowered adds another 10d4/2~(25dmg)
I have also seen some people maximise the empowered damage
Which makes it a flat +20dmg for a 60dmg total, but that acutally works out a bit worse on average damage so I guess you could run it either way.
And all for the bargain price of a 7th level spell slot
the bad news is that the DC is only 11+INT and its still considered a 1st level spell
I dunno if it applies to Pathfinder, but in v3.5, you most definitely did NOT maximize the empowered portion of the damage.
I sort of agree with Ravingdork: every metamagic feat is an independent effect, and does not alter other metamagic feats. Therefore:
An intensified burning hands deals 10D4 damage (+5D4).
An empowered burning hands deals 7D4 damage (+2D4).
A maximized burning hands deals 20 damage (5*4).
Therefore, an intensified, empowered, maximized burning hands deals 7D4+20 damage. The 20 damage is from the maximization, while the 7D4 damage is the sum of intensify and empower.
I KNOW that's not how it works.
Last paragraph from Maximize Spell: "An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result." From this, one can assume that all metamagic feats that boost damage affect a spell separately.
And that's the ONLY time that metamagic doesn't stack with other metamagic. There is no general rule that prohibits it in the way you describe.
I sort of agree with Ravingdork: every metamagic feat is an independent effect, and does not alter other metamagic feats. Therefore:
An intensified burning hands deals 10D4 damage (+5D4).
An empowered burning hands deals 7D4 damage (+2D4).
A maximized burning hands deals 20 damage (5*4).
Therefore, an intensified, empowered, maximized burning hands deals 7D4+20 damage. The 20 damage is from the maximization, while the 7D4 damage is the sum of intensify and empower.
So the Intensified effect doesn't apply?
Wouldn't empowered + maximized = 7d4+20? I don't see where Intensified is calculated anywhere...
I'm guessing there is no official FAQ/Errata anywhere regarding applying multiple metamagic feats to a spell?
Of course
The more important question is why you'd want to metamagic a burning hands into a 7th level spell ?
I sort of agree with Ravingdork: every metamagic feat is an independent effect, and does not alter other metamagic feats. Therefore:
An intensified burning hands deals 10D4 damage (+5D4).
An empowered burning hands deals 7D4 damage (+2D4).
A maximized burning hands deals 20 damage (5*4).
Therefore, an intensified, empowered, maximized burning hands deals 7D4+20 damage. The 20 damage is from the maximization, while the 7D4 damage is the sum of intensify and empower.
So the Intensified effect doesn't apply?
Wouldn't empowered + maximized = 7d4+20? I don't see where Intensified is calculated anywhere...
I'm guessing there is no official FAQ/Errata anywhere regarding applying multiple metamagic feats to a spell?
he didn't add the orignal spells dice of 5d4
so its 12d4+20, ~ 50 dmg
a 13d6 delayd fireball averages 45.5dmg but has a DC of 17+INT instead of 11 and is a 7th level spell vs other effects. better AOE and utility too.
Of course any mage worth anything will be using at least 1 metamagic rod to boost his heighest levels spells even further making the OP's 3 feat burning hands a very meh use of a turn
he didn't add the orignal spells dice of 5d4so its 12d4+20, ~ 50 dmg
No, I did add the original spell's dice. That's where the 20 comes from (a maximized burning hands deals 20 damage). Empower spell adds 2D4 damage dice, intensify spell adds 5D4 damage dice, so it's 7D4+20.
If you decide to maximize the intensified dice (10D4), then it's 2D4+40 damage. If you decide to maximize the intensified dice and empower the intensified dice, then it's 5D4+40 damage. Again, the numbers all depend on whether you decide that metamagic feats stack with each other (other than the interaction between Empower and Maximize), and in what order you decide to apply them.
I think that it's in the spirit of the rules to apply each independently, because that's the simplest answer and requires no interpretation.
its almost not worth arguing about
I mean seriously if you let everything stack it results in a 60dmg cone , independantly ~40-50
vs the myriad of other options to fill a 7th level slot including metamagic of 3,4,5 and 6th level spells does it really matter
I'd let it stack to 60 just on principal just beucase its a 7th level spell.
I mean common DC11+INT for half dmg = 30dmg
mitgated further by fire resistance stopped by minor globe
heh I'ma going to go ahead as say ask you GM ;)
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Look back at what Phasics and Ravingdork did where they explained how the metamagics were applied in order and how intensify changed the variable dice, then maximize applied to the new total of variable dice, then the extra dice for empower were figured separately without being maximized. They have it correct.
I know in 3.5 wotc staff has said the empowered maximized spell still had to roll, personally I do not have a problem with it.
Basically an intensified spell is still an inferior 3rd level spell with a dc of 11.
Assuming you maximize spell this spell it is about equal to a 5th lvl spell, dealing 10d8 damage in a small area with a low dc.
empowering that spell will effectively make it a 15d8 spell, with a low save dc as a 7th lvl spell or at least roughly equivalent if you allow it to stack.
I am not seeing the abuse and saves die rolling speeding things up, as long as you assume metamagic rods only work on the actual spell slot the spell uses you do not get 90 damage lightning bolts with lesser meta rods.
Look back at what Phasics and Ravingdork did where they explained how the metamagics were applied in order and how intensify changed the variable dice, then maximize applied to the new total of variable dice, then the extra dice for empower were figured separately without being maximized. They have it correct.
Thanks.
65 damage for a 7th-level spell slot is pretty poor already. What others are proposing is absolutely laughable.
Look back at what Phasics and Ravingdork did where they explained how the metamagics were applied in order and how intensify changed the variable dice, then maximize applied to the new total of variable dice, then the extra dice for empower were figured separately without being maximized. They have it correct.Thanks.
65 damage for a 7th-level spell slot is pretty poor already. What others are proposing is absolutely laughable.
except that in the example as put it will not make 65 damage even.
10d4/2 (50%) comes down to roughly 12.5 extra damage, so 52.5 damage if you roll the dice. I agree that it is how it was done in 3.5, but I am not seeing a convincing reason to keep it like that.
it would actually be 40 + 20 damage if the empowered portion is allowed to maximize, 60 damage and an easy save, I dont see a problem stacking empower and maximize
I don't see why people are overanalyzing this so much. Here, let's make it easy:
Burning Hands + Intensify Spell + Empower Spell + Maximize Spell = 1 wasted 7th level spell slot
Much simpler.
This ultimately comes down to how you choose to treat the additional 5D4 damage granted by Intensify Spell. Let's look at an Intensified, Maximized burning hands (no Empower).
Most people on this board think it would deal 40 damage. That is, the maximum possible result of 10D4. That's a logical conclusion. But I contend that the additional 5D4 damage from Intensify should be treated separately and not maximized, just as the additional damage from Empower Spell is treated separately and not maximized. That's my interpretation: that a Maximized, Intensified burning hands deals 5D4+20 damage.
By the same token, most people on here think that an Empowered, Intensified burning hands deals 15D4 damage (that is, 10D4 for Intensify, +5D4 for Empower). I, on the other hand, again think the Intenfied's bonus damage dice should not also be Empowered. Therefore, I think that an Empowered, Intensified burning hands deals 12D4 damage.
Everyone can continue telling me that my interpretations are wrong, and that I'm applying the rule for Empower/Maximize wherne it doesn't belong, but there it is.
I honestly dont know, im just making the point that even in it's most beneficial interpretation it is a fair bit weaker than a spell of that level and more complicated to use.
I don't see why people are overanalyzing this so much. Here, let's make it easy:
Burning Hands + Intensify Spell + Empower Spell + Maximize Spell = 1 wasted 7th level spell slot
Much simpler.
This isn't really about burning hands - it's about the math of metamagic. It's about how you choose to add additional numerical effects to spells, and in what order. It's also about how metamagic feats interact with other metamagic feats.
While our intensified, maximized, empowered burning hands might be a waste, would an intensified, maximized, empowered fireball be worth it?
135 damage cast at 15th level with a maximize meta rod, it is good damage really even if the save is a bit weak
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Normal cap for Burning Hands = 5d4 (caster level 5, level 1 spell)
Intensified Spell raises that cap by 5 dice, to 10d4 (caster level 10, level 2 spell)
Maximise Spell maximises the results of those damage dice (as if they all rolled '4'), whilst Empowered independantly adds 50% of those damage dice (which you still roll). So...
Intensified and Empowered = 15d4 (caster level 10, level 4 spell)
Intensified and Maximised - 40 damage (caster level 10, level 5 spell)
Intensified, Maximised, and Empower = 5d4 + 40 (caster level is now based on the minimum level to cast a level 7 spell - usually 13 or 14 for Wizards / Sorcerers - baring the use of Rods and the like).
Just for kicks - if your caster happened to be a Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer (with a Fire dragon energy type), then you add another +1 damage for every die (either rolled or maximised), for another +15 damage. Total = 5d4 + 55.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I think the important point here is that the order in which metamagic feats are applied does not matter since they are applied independently.
So, as many would hopefully agree, an empowered maximized burning hands would deal (5d4)x1/2 + 20
The trick with intensify spell is that it does not add damage. It increases the cap on the number of dice based on caster level. In effect, it makes a burning hands into a second level spell which caps at 10d4 damage.
So, an intensified empowered maximized burning hands does (10d4)x1/2 + 40 as Ravingdork first pointed out. Of course, his math was a bit off and this averages out to 52.5
Not particularly good for a 7th level spell, but just the intensified burning hands which does ~25 damage isn't that bad for a 2nd level spell when you consider that fireballs cap out at ~35 damage unless you start applying metamagic.
I don't see why people are overanalyzing this so much. Here, let's make it easy:
Burning Hands + Intensify Spell + Empower Spell + Maximize Spell = 1 wasted 7th level spell slot
Much simpler.
This isn't really about burning hands - it's about the math of metamagic. It's about how you choose to add additional numerical effects to spells, and in what order. It's also about how metamagic feats interact with other metamagic feats.
While our intensified, maximized, empowered burning hands might be a waste, would an intensified, maximized, empowered fireball be worth it?
As a 9th level spell? No.
Because sometimes you don't burn a higher level spell slot, but instead use rods to increase with Metamagic. Why not use a few lesser rods to boost a first level spell?
As a 9th level spell? No.I don't see why people are overanalyzing this so much. Here, let's make it easy:
Burning Hands + Intensify Spell + Empower Spell + Maximize Spell = 1 wasted 7th level spell slot
Much simpler.
This isn't really about burning hands - it's about the math of metamagic. It's about how you choose to add additional numerical effects to spells, and in what order. It's also about how metamagic feats interact with other metamagic feats.
While our intensified, maximized, empowered burning hands might be a waste, would an intensified, maximized, empowered fireball be worth it?
With a metamagic rod and spell mastery it's a 4th level slot!
Nitpicking: It wouldn't be a 9th level spell either way; metamagic doesn't change spell level (except for Heighten spell), just the slot it takes.
Because sometimes you don't burn a higher level spell slot, but instead use rods to increase with Metamagic. Why not use a few lesser rods to boost a first level spell?
Can't use more than one metamagic rod per casting of a spell.
I think the important point here is that the order in which metamagic feats are applied does not matter since they are applied independently.
So, as many would hopefully agree, an empowered maximized burning hands would deal (5d4)x1/2 + 20
Humor my feeble mind for a moment.
I roll 5d4, I get 14. Half of which is 7. I add 14 and 7, bringing the subtotal to 21.
Now I add 20 (for maximized 5d4) to my roll of 21 for a total 41 points.
The trick with intensify spell is that it does not add damage. It increases the cap on the number of dice based on caster level. In effect, it makes a burning hands into a second level spell which caps at 10d4 damage.
So, an intensified empowered maximized burning hands does (10d4)x1/2 + 40 as Ravingdork first pointed out. Of course, his math was a bit off and this averages out to 52.5
Which follows from the first example, gotcha.
Thanks to Ravingdork & Tem (and everyone else!) it was the 'apply each metamagic feat to the base spell' that was throwing me off.