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SO Im currently whipping up my character for a game we will start soon. Seeing how both I (gnome summoner) and the magic-focusing druid can't even carry 30 pounds before we hit medium load I decided to look up what I can get for us to carry our equipment and loot.
So I checked the mount section which lists donkey or mule for 8gp. The equipment section also says that unlike horses, donkeys and mules are willing to enter dungeons and other strange and threatening areas.
Sounds like a good deal for me. After searching for donkey/mule stats for a while I came across the FaQ on d20pfsrd.com which said that a donkey counts as a pony and a mule as a pony with the advanced template.
Now while this already made me wonder why ever i should buy a donkey when a mule is so much better for the same price I also checked how much a regular pony costs: 30gp.
This puts up the question for me, why buy a pony when a mule is a much better mount for much less gold?
I think it's because a mule/donkey is not trained to bear a rider, meaning it's a vessel to haul more loot out of the dungeon, not a way to engage in mounted combat, but I don't know where the rule is to support that assertion.
I think it's because a mule/donkey is not trained to bear a rider, meaning it's a vessel to haul more loot out of the dungeon, not a way to engage in mounted combat, but I don't know where the rule is to support that assertion.
Whether it is or not, your base horse or pony isn't trained for combat and wouldn't let you ride into combat on it in the first place.
Whether it is or not, your base horse or pony isn't trained for combat and wouldn't let you ride into combat on it in the first place.I think it's because a mule/donkey is not trained to bear a rider, meaning it's a vessel to haul more loot out of the dungeon, not a way to engage in mounted combat, but I don't know where the rule is to support that assertion.
But we are talking about an animal companion which should indicate that if you wanted to you could train a horse or a mule to accept a rider and/or fight in combat.
Personally I wish there was just an easy riding dog animal companion option for small druids who want a mount but by the RAW you need to go with a Pony or maybe train your Big Cat or Wolf to function as a mount.
No we are talking about a purchased mount/pack beast from the goods and services section.
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No we are talking about a purchased mount/pack beast from the goods and services section.
Sure, but it is also a mount/pack beast without any stats. You could kluge something from the 3.5 mule stats, but Pathfinder allows you to buy a donkey or mule without actually telling you anything useful about it, like speed or carrying capacity. If the beast is just hauling gear that isn't a big deal, but if it's your primary mount in a combat situation it's pretty critical.
Perhaps it is a potential thing? A horse or pony can be trained for riding in combat, even if they don't start that way. A mule or donkey cannot. So they start out cheaper, but have no ability to go beyond that limit, while a pony starts as the worse deal but can be "upgraded".
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Because mules are damn mean SOBs.
Because mules are damn mean SOBs.
Yes, yes they are.
No we are talking about a purchased mount/pack beast from the goods and services section.Sure, but it is also a mount/pack beast without any stats. You could kluge something from the 3.5 mule stats, but Pathfinder allows you to buy a donkey or mule without actually telling you anything useful about it, like speed or carrying capacity. If the beast is just hauling gear that isn't a big deal, but if it's your primary mount in a combat situation it's pretty critical.
Please read carefully what I wrote in the opening posts. I said that the FaQ explicitly states Mules to be Ponies with the Advanced template.
I strongly recommend against the use of mules.
As suggested in this thread from Enworld, are a game breaking part of 3.5 that both Pathfinder and 4th edition wisely removed.
Because mules are low class.
Speaking of creatures without stats, does anybody know the stats for a guard dog?
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A mule is an animal with long funny ears
he kicks up at anything he hears
His back is brawny but his brain is weak
he's just plain stupid with a stubborn streak
and by the way if you hate to go to school
You may grow up to be a mule
Also, ponies are cuter than mules.
Perhaps it is a potential thing? A horse or pony can be trained for riding in combat, even if they don't start that way. A mule or donkey cannot. So they start out cheaper, but have no ability to go beyond that limit, while a pony starts as the worse deal but can be "upgraded".
Nothing about the Handle Animal skill says you can't train a mule for combat so, as written, you could even teach a box turtle to defend you from a gang of Scots.
Here's a pony rebuilt as a mule (using the advanced creature template) for easy reference:
CR 1
XP 400
N Medium animal
Init +1; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +7
DEFENSE AC 15, touch 13, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, +2 Nat.)
hp 15 (2d8+6)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +2
OFFENSE Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 hooves –1 (1d3+3)
STATISTICS Str 17, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 17 (21 vs. trip)
Feats Endurance, Run (B)
Skills Perception +7
SQ docile
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Docile (Ex)
Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill, a mule's hooves are treated as secondary attacks.
Using the template, the mule easily trumps the pony in terms of power, agility and durability. Heck, according to the SRD, the mule is just as good, if not better than a standard horse.
The only thing that really stands out as a disadvantage of the mule is that, in 3.5, they were large creatures which meant you couldn't always take them exploring narrow caverns and ruins.
Also remember that if buy a male horse and a femal horse or a male pony and a female pony you can get more ponies or horses. If you buy a male mule and a female mule your not going to get more mules.
Also, ponies are cuter than mules.A mule is an animal with long funny ears
he kicks up at anything he hears
His back is brawny but his brain is weak
he's just plain stupid with a stubborn streak
and by the way if you hate to go to school
You may grow up to be a mule
I always found horse-likes of any kind to be exceptionally ugly creatures.
Perhaps it is a potential thing? A horse or pony can be trained for riding in combat, even if they don't start that way. A mule or donkey cannot. So they start out cheaper, but have no ability to go beyond that limit, while a pony starts as the worse deal but can be "upgraded".Nothing about the Handle Animal skill says you can't train a mule for combat so, as written, you could even teach a box turtle to defend you from a gang of Scots.
Here's a pony rebuilt as a mule (using the advanced creature template) for easy reference:
** spoiler omitted **
Using the template, the mule easily trumps the pony in terms of power, agility and durability. Heck, according to the SRD, the mule is just as good, if not better than a standard horse.
The only thing that really stands out as a disadvantage of the mule is that, in 3.5, they were large creatures which meant you couldn't always take them...
Yeah that's what die advanced template does, enhance power, agility and durability of the base creature ;)
Thanks for the reference, that might be useful.
I always found horse-likes of any kind to be exceptionally ugly creatures.
It depends on how you view them.
I'm not a furry. Honest.
Speaking of creatures without stats, does anybody know the stats for a guard dog?
I thought guard dogs where suppose to use the stats for riding dogs. I think that was discussed in a thread... found it... HERE(LINK)
{But then the combat trained dog is introduced, and it is the same price as the guard dog from the Core book (which doesn't have any description) and no mention of which stats are to be used. It would seem an awfully cheap way to get a riding dog, since that is the only medium dog stats we have available in the Pathfinder line.}
The guard dog in the CR *is* a combat-trained dog. It's a Medium dog, so it uses the Medium dog stats in the Bestiary. As to why you'd pay for a riding dog rather than a guard dog... you can't ride a guard dog. Perhaps there's a misinterpretation arising from the CR horse entry: "A combat-trained horse can be ridden into combat without danger." That doesn't mean that *all* combat trained animals are automatically riding animals, it just means that a combat-trained horse *is* a riding animal. Dogs are not automatically riding animals. A riding dog *is* a combat-trained dog that you can ride (it's been trained for both). A guard dog is not trained (or bred) for riding.
Look at the costs for different clothing, ranging from the entertainer's outfit to the courtier's costume. Both function as clothing, prevent nakedness and sunburn and do other stuff that clothing does, but the courtier's outfit will get you taken seriously at court.
If you have a donkey or a mule, you'll be viewed as a peasant, an uncouth barbarian, a wacky gnome, or anything similar. If you are somehow rich and powerful anyway and insist on keeping your faithful old donkey with you and ride it, you'll be viewed as a wealthy eccentric.
This puts up the question for me, why buy a pony when a mule is a much better mount for much less gold?
a) because the horse shop has run out of mules.
b) because a pony is less likely to decide that it doesn't want to go where you want it to.
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FWIW, this is what I decided for my game when asked about Dogs:
A Guard Dog is 25gp as per book (4 tricks - trained for 'guarding' not 'combat'). This is a Medium Dog
A War Dog has the same combat package as a Riding Dog, and costs 150gp (6 tricks). A dog with this training (and only with this training) is also proficient with armor.
A Hunting Dog has more training than a Guard Dog, but is Small. It costs 25gp (6 tricks, but many of a lower DC than for a War Dog, and no armor proficiency). It is possible to purchase a Medium-size Hunting Dog, cost is 75gp.
All Medium dogs will have the 'Riding Dog' stats, just won't really be trained to bear a rider (which seems to be a free 'throw-in' with the various training regimes).
Note that none of these packages have the 'doubled' version of the Attack trick, so they will only attack Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, Giants and Animals. The Guard Dog could be trained later to add a second Attack Trick, but the other two are maxed out.
To prevent the Hunting Dog from being utterly pointless, I gave it a +2 to Survival Skill. Thus a 'Take 10' by such a dog is sufficient to keep itself and its master fed (or it can be encouraged to hunt larger/more difficult game, and roll, hoping for a better result). Otherwise the dog would tend to be a net zero effect on survival (feeding itself, but that's all).
Maybe give the mule a 30ft speed? Seems fitting.
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I always found horse-likes of any kind to be exceptionally ugly creatures.It depends on how you view them.
I'm not a furry. Honest.
Thank you...Mr. Fishy can't sleep now. EVER! The was disturbing. Airbreathers are sick.
Because if you fall on really hard times, you can eat the donkey and not feel bad about it.
Stat-wise, sure, they're sort of better, but roleplay-wise they're totally different. Consider their personalities as well as the reactions you'll get when your noble knight rides into the hoity-toity kingdom of Stuckup on his barding-clad mule.
Some things just aren't done (unless you're going for a more humorous game).
I strongly recommend against the use of mules.
As suggested in this thread from Enworld, are a game breaking part of 3.5 that both Pathfinder and 4th edition wisely removed.
For half a second, I thought you were actually serious and I was about to lose all faith in the gaming community.
*Brandishes protest signs*
BAN THE HALF-ASSED MULES!
Mules can be fun for comedy purposes, or to develop a character. The fact is, you can't just say mules cost more than ponies, or aren't as tough. It just isn't true. We'll just have to hope the munchkins don't buy such useful, mighty creatures. It'd totally break the game. :P
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SO Im currently whipping up my character for a game we will start soon. Seeing how both I (gnome summoner) and the magic-focusing druid can't even carry 30 pounds before we hit medium load I decided to look up what I can get for us to carry our equipment and loot.
So I checked the mount section which lists donkey or mule for 8gp. The equipment section also says that unlike horses, donkeys and mules are willing to enter dungeons and other strange and threatening areas.
Sounds like a good deal for me. After searching for donkey/mule stats for a while I came across the FaQ on d20pfsrd.com which said that a donkey counts as a pony and a mule as a pony with the advanced template.Now while this already made me wonder why ever i should buy a donkey when a mule is so much better for the same price I also checked how much a regular pony costs: 30gp.
This puts up the question for me, why buy a pony when a mule is a much better mount for much less gold?
I know I'll ruin the thread by trying to answer this seriously, so I apologize. But, here are my thoughts:
While it is not in RAW, the way I would run this in my game is that a "store bought" mule comes taught with only one trick: "work" (see Handle Animal).
A "store bought" pony, on the other hand, comes taught with the Riding package of Tricks.
What you are paying for therefore is not just the animal itself, but the training it's received.
It also may to do with cultural demand. A wool coat may be more useful than a silk coat--the former keeps you both warm and dry, the latter simply looks and feels nice--but the silk coat will still cost more because of rarity and aesthetics. A lord with no need for a labor animal will buy a beautiful well bred pony for his daughter (or himself!); he will not buy a mule because it's cheaper, no matter how much more useful it might be in certain circumstances.
I would also note that while mules and donkeys might be willing to enter dark dungeony areas, the text does note they are "not necessarily eager" and I'm sure there are a number of Handle Animal checks you are going to have to end up making to keep it with you (and may well make you recall the "stubborn as a..." simile). And taking any creature into a dungeon is a liability to some extent--even a mule made as an "advanced pony" will still be devoured by, say, a gelatinous cube, as someone noted, or be harmed by any number of other hazards.
Sure it would be nice to have some premade stats, but in a 476 page rulebook encompassing class descriptions, feats, magic, etc. I can forgive them not explaining pack animal prices clearly.
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And taking any creature into a dungeon is a liability to some extent--even a mule made as an "advanced pony" will still be devoured by, say, a gelatinous cube, as someone noted, or be harmed by any number of other hazards.
This almost goes without saying. I like my characters (especially weakling wizards) to own mules for carrying extra gear and dead party members, but I go into it knowing the animals are going to be at an increased risk of theft or death as we encounter stronger opponents and acquire more swag. By the time you reach 4th level, you're better off purchasing a Handy Haversack or Bag of Holding unless you're mule is an animal companion because its abilities aren't going to scale with the challenges you encounter. Of course, a fallen mule makes for some pretty good cover in a firefight.
Because mules are damn mean SOBs.
:)