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The rules for bull rush state "You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle."
The question is, what is an "obstacle?"
It seems obvious that a table or pillar counts, but...
Can I push a person into difficult terrain?
Can I push a person into a pit?
Can I push a person off a pirate's plank?
Can I push a person over a low railing?
Can I push a person into a fire?
Can I push a person into a lava square?
Can I push a person into a blade barrier?
Can I push a person into a Gelatenous Cube?
Help.
The rules for bull rush state "You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle."
The question is, what is an "obstacle?"
It seems obvious that a table or pillar counts, but...
Can I push a person into difficult terrain?
Can I push a person into a pit?
Can I push a person off a pirate's plank?
Can I push a person over a low railing?
Can I push a person into a fire?
Can I push a person into a lava square?
Can I push a person into a blade barrier?
Can I push a person into a Gelatenous Cube?
Help.
Interesting post i cant say for sure but in the campaign I play I would say yes to all of those things and pretty sure my dm would also. In fact it would be encouraged. As for official rulings im not sure sorry im horrible with remembering rules.
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The obstacle has to be solid...so difficult terrain is not solid...neither is a pit, lava, fire, blade barrier and such. Low railing may cound depending on how low is low and what kind of material and style it is made of by DM ruling. The gelatenous cube on the other hand is a solid so that one results in bounce and drop...with the creature gulping ya on it's turn in a few seconds.
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I'm unsure all of these are covered in the RAW, but here is how I would rule them.
Can I push a person into difficult terrain?
- Yes, but it would count as difficult terrain for you too, thus needing your bull rush check to defeat their CMD by TEN per 5 feet of difficult terrain you wish to push them.
Can I push a person into a pit?
- Yes, they would get a check to catch themselves on the lip of the pit, see the climb and acrobatics skill entries, along with the falling damage section of environmental hazards for more info. I would also likely give them a reflex save to grab the lip, maybe save DC equal to your bull rush check, minus 5 per 5 feet you moved them.
Can I push a person off a pirate's plank?
- Yes, see above.
Can I push a person over a low railing?
- I'd say no here, I'd count any obstacle that would provide even partial cover, as being enough to block continued bull rush movement (with all the pros and cons therein).
Can I push a person into a fire?
- Yes, they would get a reflex save, DC 15, to avoid catching on fire, per the normal rules for entering a space on fire.
Can I push a person into a lava square?
- Yes, see the rules on environmental rules for more information.
Can I push a person into a blade barrier?
- Yes, but they would immediately receive a reflex save. I'm on the fence if I would give them the save for half, or the save as outlined for being in a space as the spell was cast. I'm tempted to say that it would be an all or nothing save, and if they succeed, your bull rush movement is ended.
Can I push a person into a Gelatenous Cube?
- No, I think this would be the same as trying to bull rush one goblin into another, something already covered by the existing rules (you bull rush both of them, or neither of them).
I hope that helps.
Just a quick anecdote. I had a half-giant psywar I was playing a few years back that was built around bull-rushing and tripping. We fought an encounter around a spiked pit, and a bull-rushed one of them into it. DM says "well you pushed her so far she went right to the other side" like wtf. I build this character for one purpose and I have the chance to shine NOPE lameness.
I'm unsure all of these are covered in the RAW, but here is how I would rule them.
Can I push a person into difficult terrain?
- Yes, but it would count as difficult terrain for you too, thus needing your bull rush check to defeat their CMD by TEN per 5 feet of difficult terrain you wish to push them.
Makes sense.
Can I push a person into a pit?
- Yes, they would get a check to catch themselves on the lip of the pit, see the climb and acrobatics skill entries, along with the falling damage section of environmental hazards for more info. I would also likely give them a reflex save to grab the lip, maybe save DC equal to your bull rush check, minus 5 per 5 feet you moved them.Can I push a person off a pirate's plank?
- Yes, see above.
I'm not seeing the relevant stuff in the Acrobatics skill. Acrobatics talks about deliberately falling, or about missing a jump and catching the opposite ledge (the one your momentum is pushing you toward). A large pit, cliff, or pirate plank may not have an opposite ledge.
Climb, however, DOES talk about falling, so thanks for that tip. However, it just seems like it would be more difficult to catch yourself when getting pushed away from a ledge versus already grasping said ledge when you start to fall. I'm picturing the movie 300 right now. "THIS IS SPARTA!" *kicks emissary off ledge.
Can I push a person over a low railing?
- I'd say no here, I'd count any obstacle that would provide even partial cover, as being enough to block continued bull rush movement (with all the pros and cons therein).
alright.
Can I push a person into a fire?
- Yes, they would get a reflex save, DC 15, to avoid catching on fire, per the normal rules for entering a space on fire.
Gotcha.
Can I push a person into a lava square?
- Yes, see the rules on environmental rules for more information.
OK, on the push. There are also these alternate rules for lava.
Can I push a person into a blade barrier?
- Yes, but they would immediately receive a reflex save. I'm on the fence if I would give them the save for half, or the save as outlined for being in a space as the spell was cast. I'm tempted to say that it would be an all or nothing save, and if they succeed, your bull rush movement is ended.
I'm unsure too. Perhaps we can get an official ruling?
Can I push a person into a Gelatenous Cube?
- No, I think this would be the same as trying to bull rush one goblin into another, something already covered by the existing rules (you bull rush both of them, or neither of them).
I was on the fence with this one.
I could just as easily said...
Air or Fire elemental, incorporeal creature, or any other non-solid. Then there are Water Elementals and other liquid creatures. Then the green slime, ochre jelly, other semi-solids.
Too many shades of grey.
At some point, creatures stop becoming "Solid objects or obstacles." It is confusing where the line is drawn.
I hope that helps.
It does, although I still hope to see an official ruling on pushing characters through incorporeal/gaseous/liquid creatures, and another on blade barrier.
Really, all of this started with a pit encounter, but I'm trying to get all the related questions out of the way and answered in one thread. Especially since my group has had combat with several incorporeal creatures (and another one with a Gelatinous Cube). It's only a matter of time before this stuff comes up.
Can I push a person over a low railing?
- I'd say no here, I'd count any obstacle that would provide even partial cover, as being enough to block continued bull rush movement (with all the pros and cons therein).
In this case I would be open to:
If the target does not start adjacent to the and could be bull-rushed enough squares to go beyond the railing, stop at the railing. (The obvious case here)
If the target starts adjacent to the railing, treat it as a trip attack with the extra note that improved bull rush would apply in this particular case.
If the target is bull-rushed more than one square and would move to and beyond the railing, allow a free second CMB roll to trip the target over the rail.
Certainly not RAW. And I can't say that this would apply in every case, but I can see running it that way.
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So is there no way to do the classic action trope of someone being pushed through a (thin) wall in the rules?
I was designing an encounter for a couple 10th-level characters and thought it would be a nice move to have one of the bad guys try to basically tackle one of the players through a wooden wall and down to the ground a floor below.
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I wonder why the rules don't actually let you bullrush enemies into other enemies or into obstacles.
I mean, if you get slammed into a wall, shouldn't that hurt? Maybe make it a Fighter or Barbarian alternative class feature to be able to bullrush people into objects and obstacles and other people and deal damage.
The rules for bull rush state "You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle."
The question is, what is an "obstacle?"
I would define an obstacle as anything that prevents movement.
It seems obvious that a table or pillar counts, but...
Can I push a person into difficult terrain?
Yes
Can I push a person into a pit?
yes
Can I push a person off a pirate's plank?
Arrrr (yes)
Can I push a person over a low railing?
Give a +2 to +4 bonus to resist the bullrush depending on the height of the railing.
Can I push a person into a fire?
Yes. A fire is an inconvenience, but it is by no means an obstacle to movement.
Can I push a person into a lava square?
Same as fire.
Can I push a person into a blade barrier?
Yes
Can I push a person into a Gelatenous Cube?
By RAW? Technically No. Gelatinous cubes fully occupy the square that they are in. That square is occupied and you are not allowed to walk through the gelatinous cube. Given the circumstances that the gelatinous cube would happily accept anything pushed into its space as a dm i would allow it.
Fun fact: Nowhere in the rules for incorporeal creatures does it say that it can pass through other creatures--only other objects. In a sense, they're solid to creatures. Seems like an oversight to me; logically, there's little to prevent an incorporeal giant from occupying the same space as a corporeal human other than the human's reactions. But RAW, you can't bull rush someone into a ghost.
That said, screw RAW and let 'em do it. If someone gets bull rushed into a ghost, they occupy the ghost (and take an attack of opportunity from it). If someone gets bull rushed into a gelatinous cube, same deal. If whatever it is obviously occupies the entire square, then make the AoO auto-hit. And let 'em bull rush someone over the railing, but give the target a chance to catch themselves.
Or do whatever you think makes sense.
Can I push a person into a pit?
- Yes, they would get a check to catch themselves on the lip of the pit, see the climb and acrobatics skill entries, along with the falling damage section of environmental hazards for more info. I would also likely give them a reflex save to grab the lip, maybe save DC equal to your bull rush check, minus 5 per 5 feet you moved them.
This is not true. You only get a save to catch yourself while falling if you attempted a jump and failed the Acrobatics Check by 4 or less. Jason Rice has already clarified this.
I wonder why the rules don't actually let you bullrush enemies into other enemies or into obstacles.
I mean, if you get slammed into a wall, shouldn't that hurt? Maybe make it a Fighter or Barbarian alternative class feature to be able to bullrush people into objects and obstacles and other people and deal damage.
See the Shield Slam feat, it allows you to bull rush people into walls.
For 3.5, there was an alternate class feature for fighters called Dungeoncrasher (found in the Dungeonscape book).
Since I don't know wether it falls under the OGL (I actually doubt it) and posting it here could violate the forum rules, I just give you this link.
As it was already only replacing your 2nd and 6th level bonus feats, I think converting those two ACF-levels in two feats (supposedly Dungeoncrasher + improved Dungeoncrasher) would be a quick, easy and balanced houserule.
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What about bull rushing someone into the area covered by a black tentacles spell?