@Ouachitonian: Bloodrager doesn't really disrupt a whole lot due to mad magic. What abilities does it disrupt that you can't find a workaround for? Urban Bloodrager would work wonderfully with a dex build. Dragon Disciple doesn't seem to synergize much at all with a dex focus though... Note that Kobolds don't normally qualify for Dragon Disciple due to being a draconic race, CT would have to houserule that requirement away (he has been rather strict on such things so far).
@Peanuts, Dalang: Due to facing encounters pretty far above our CR there is no such thing as too much damage in this game.
@Ouachitonian: Bloodrager doesn't really disrupt a whole lot due to mad magic. What abilities does it disrupt that you can't find a workaround for? Urban Bloodrager would work wonderfully with a dex build. Dragon Disciple doesn't seem to synergize much at all with a dex focus though... Note that Kobolds don't normally qualify for Dragon Disciple due to being a draconic race, CT would have to houserule that requirement away (he has been rather strict on such things so far).
@Peanuts, Dalang: Due to facing encounters pretty far above our CR there is no such thing as too much damage in this game.
Huh? Everything I've seen shows them as "Humanoid(reptilian)". Are you sure you aren't thinking of Wyvarans?
@Peanuts, Dalang: Due to facing encounters pretty far above our CR there is no such thing as too much damage in this game.
Eh. I recommend having things to do in combat beyond simple melee attacking, though—*that* has been extremely important in the battles we've fought so far. (Some relied entirely on melee combat, but others depended mostly on spells)
Query: let's say that, in addition to PrCing Dragon Disciple (from Hunter, I don't have any existing bloodline levels), I cheese dip sorcerer. Does my bloodline advancement stack, even on overlapping levels? ie DD from 10-20, so on cheese dip levels 12, 16, and 20, do I jump 2 levels higher for my effective bloodline level?
You have to qualify for the PrC within the same 'column', since hunter doesn't provide spontaneous arcane spellcasting you cannot PrC as hunter/dragon disciple as one of your three classes. This resolves the 'what happens to me when i take sorcerer as a cheese dip. The sorcerer levels are unaffected. The arcane casting class that is affected is the one whose spellcasting you use to qualify for the PrC. I can elaborate more if this doesn't quite make sense. Rereading the examples in the main campaign tab and early recruitment posts will probably clarify.
Query: let's say that, in addition to PrCing Dragon Disciple (from Hunter, I don't have any existing bloodline levels), I cheese dip sorcerer. Does my bloodline advancement stack, even on overlapping levels? ie DD from 10-20, so on cheese dip levels 12, 16, and 20, do I jump 2 levels higher for my effective bloodline level?You have to qualify for the PrC within the same 'column', since hunter doesn't provide spontaneous arcane spellcasting you cannot PrC as hunter/dragon disciple as one of your three classes. This resolves the 'what happens to me when i take sorcerer as a cheese dip. The sorcerer levels are unaffected. The arcane casting class that is affected is the one whose spellcasting you use to qualify for the PrC. I can elaborate more if this doesn't quite make sense. Rereading the examples in the main campaign tab and early recruitment posts will probably clarify.
Kobolds can qualify via any spontaneous divine spellcasting class via the Scaled Disciple feat. Even with only the Core Rulebook, a Bard could cause the same conundrum, since it's also a spontaneous arcane caster. I think I'm going to resolve the issue another way (just not using classes with overlapping bloodlines on multiple columns), but it is possible.
At any rate, here's the Kobold alternate racial traits I'm interested in. I'm not going to take them all, some I might trade out the old fashioned way, but I want to see the costs for the following:
Beast Bond
Day Raider
Dragonmaw
Wild Forest Kobold
(May trade Day Raider out the normal way, will probably trade either Beast Bond or Wild Forest for Crafty, but will likely buy the other)
Also, rolls:
11
10
18
14
15
17
11
11 (+3) = 14
18 (+0) = 18
14 (+2) = 16
15 (+3) = 18
17 (+1) = 18
11 (+1) = 12
I can work with that.
Query: let's say that, in addition to PrCing Dragon Disciple (from Hunter, I don't have any existing bloodline levels), I cheese dip sorcerer. Does my bloodline advancement stack, even on overlapping levels? ie DD from 10-20, so on cheese dip levels 12, 16, and 20, do I jump 2 levels higher for my effective bloodline level?You have to qualify for the PrC within the same 'column', since hunter doesn't provide spontaneous arcane spellcasting you cannot PrC as hunter/dragon disciple as one of your three classes. This resolves the 'what happens to me when i take sorcerer as a cheese dip. The sorcerer levels are unaffected. The arcane casting class that is affected is the one whose spellcasting you use to qualify for the PrC. I can elaborate more if this doesn't quite make sense. Rereading the examples in the main campaign tab and early recruitment posts will probably clarify.Kobolds can qualify via any spontaneous divine spellcasting class via the Scaled Disciple feat. Even with only the Core Rulebook, a Bard could cause the same conundrum, since it's also a spontaneous arcane caster. I think I'm going to resolve the issue another way (just not using classes with overlapping bloodlines on multiple columns), but it is possible.
At any rate, here's the Kobold alternate racial traits I'm interested in. I'm not going to take them all, some I might trade out the old fashioned way, but I want to see the costs for the following:
Beast Bond
Day Raider
Dragonmaw
Wild Forest Kobold(May trade Day Raider out the normal way, will probably trade either Beast Bond or Wild Forest for Crafty, but will likely buy the other)
The kobold feat is fine and would work wonderfully for the PrC as indicated, however the issue of whether the PrC advances the spellcasting of your cheesedip class is still moot, since the DD PrC would be increasing your hunter spell advancement. You wouldn't cross over to another class obtained via the gestalt to advance. I will review those feats and get back to you.
oh I didn't know we could do another submission for a future possible table. I may see if I can come up with something. I'm not sure what we are waiting on at our table at this point. I think maybe for CT to update.
Let me see what I can come up with.
16
14
13
16
13
13
17
So: 17, 16, 16, 14, 13, 13
With 10: 18, 18, 18, 18, 17, 10
Beast Bond is 6 RP - a +2 to a skill is worth 2 RP, and to make it a class skill is 1 RP
Day Raider is net sum of 0 RP or 2RP if you keep darkvision. (Math: You lose darkvision (+2RP), lose light sensitivity (-1RP), and gain low light vision (-1RP). If you wanted to keep darkvision in addition to gaining lowlight vision and ditching light sensitivity its basically 2 RP)
Dragonmaw 1 RP - just a bite attack with minimal use fluff (extra 1d6 per day is not worth another RP).
Wild Forest Kobold is another 6RP one. Two +2 skills as class skills.
Stats for a second character:
15
16
16
13
16
15
15
16, 16, 16, 15, 15, 15
Not bad at all
Hello!
I've seen this thread there for a while, but never realised it was in constant recruiting. So now that I've done, I thought it would be wise to submit a character (I'm thinking probably a Monk or a DD).
Here are my rolls:
=>12
=>13
=>10
=>9
=>17
=>13
=>15
That makes 17, 15, 13, 13, 12, 10, 9. That's real garbage for 5d6x7. Let's see what can I do with it :P
(I'm thinking probably a Monk or a DD).
Why not both?
And some of us started with 14-put-buy rolls. There's a minimum point distribution—but I think you're over it. Remember to add 10 points one-for-one (nothing above 18 after additions, though).
Yeah, I can do wonders with it (actually my rolls add up 80+10=90 :P). But it's still a bad roll for 5d6x7, I think. Fortunately, it's more than enough for what I need.
DD gives STR bonuses whereas the Monk I had in mind was more Wis/Dex focused.
Two questions:
a) Can an Unchained Rogue or a Paladin select Unarmed Strike as their Bond Weapon/Finesse Training thing?
b) Can Ability Focus be taken to add up to Stunning Fist, Crushing Blow, etc?
Jereru:
a) For a URogue, RAW they can. Paladin's more complicated; a Monk, Brawler, or Enlightened Paladin can, because anything with the monk-equivalent ability can treat it as a manufactured weapon. Beyond that, it's a GM call.
b) It's not PFS legal, but it looks like it might be RAW legal. GM probably has a call he wants to make on that.
We are monsters. I recall Ability Focus being oked earlier in the thread.
Yes you can take ability focus
Thank you! About Divine Bond? Cause if it doesn't work I might pick the mount (at least I won't have to walk xD)
I don't see that the wording expressly forbids it, but then it probably wasn't envisioned that such a thing would happen when written.
Perusing a forum or two where people argued over it seemed to arrive at the consensus that it was legit. It is interesting that the Enligthened Paladin specifically spells it out allowing it ( perhaps this is more of a limitation than anything ). I'm inclined to think it should work, although I will watch for shenanigans.
I don't see that the wording expressly forbids it, but then it probably wasn't envisioned that such a thing would happen when written.
Perusing a forum or two where people argued over it seemed to arrive at the consensus that it was legit. It is interesting that the Enligthened Paladin specifically spells it out allowing it ( perhaps this is more of a limitation than anything ). I'm inclined to think it should work, although I will watch for shenanigans.
If you're curious—Monks, specifically, get "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." Enlightened Paladin "gains the unarmed strike monk ability." So we know it's 100% kosher. The same ability is shared by Brawlers and Steelfist Commando Warlords (but NOT Elemental Ascetic Kineticists). But Cheese-dipping monk or brawler at 4 would by such a reasoning allow the paladin to divine bond his fists at 5, no questions asked.
I couldn't see where the paladin ability spelled out anything regarding natural vs manufactured or the like in any event. This seemed to be semantics that were discussed on one of the forums and ultimately the wording wasn't there to forbid it. Probably more of RAI vs RAW. I didn't look for any dev posts or FAQs clarifying. I don't think its terribly game breaking compared to what else we have. Just need to watch for unintended crazy stacking things, which I'm not totally against either depending...
Well, the base of my build won't be Divine Bond. All it will do is add some extra sauce, it it won't work, it's not that important. Plus, I plan on taking Monk/Paladin/Rogue, so technically I'll have levels in monk :P
My build, in case you want to know, will go around stunning/crushingblowing/touchofsereniting/debilitinjuring or whatever works for the creature we're fighting (if they're immune to stun). Paladin is only there to provide good saves, smiting and lay on hands/channeling.
That said, I'll take your answer as a "yes, you can" :)
Since Kobolds are such low RP critters to begin with, I have a lot of RP to play with. So, with an extra bonus feat and a +2 to an ability score both being 4RP, which do y'all think is more useful? I'm sure they're close, of course. Otherwise they wouldn't cost the same.
Depends on the feat requirements of your build, and the ability score. Some feats (Iron Will, Power Attack) are substantially more powerful than an ability score increase; some feats (Weapon Specialization, Dodge) are rather worse.
However, note that many *combat* feats require a BAB of +5 or higher. If you find yourself running out of feats you want that you qualify for, the ability score becomes more useful.
It's so hard not to make another character... If I remember correctly, it's possible to get dual-wielding finessed bastard swords going right off the bat if you build it right...
It's so hard not to make another character... If I remember correctly, it's possible to get dual-wielding finessed bastard swords going right off the bat if you build it right...
Note that this is not actually a very min-maxed option at all. It's possible with a bit of tinkering to quadruple-wield finessed large greatswords.
It's so hard not to make another character... If I remember correctly, it's possible to get dual-wielding finessed bastard swords going right off the bat if you build it right...Note that this is not actually a very min-maxed option at all. It's possible with a bit of tinkering to quadruple-wield finessed large greatswords.
Wait... I think I know how you might go about dual-wielding large greatswords as a minotaur or something like that, but how do you get to the quadruple-wielding?
Synthesist with Extra Evolutions. It's not *good,* but there's ways to dump an effective size increase whenever you want it that let you stay large in all combats.
EDIT: Wait, I miscalculated that. You'd be wielding 6 large great-swords. Nobody do this, please.
Pahahahahahaha! I'd forgotten about Synthesist.
Anyway, my goal isn't really to bristle with as many pointy things as I can... I'm considering resurrecting my idea for a performance combatant, though with the way the prereqs work I'm not sure I'll actually be able to make use of those starting 5 feats...
Alright. I'm almost done, but I need to get ready for work tonight. Will submit tomorrow, unless something unforeseen happens.
Most pathfinder feats are rather lackluster, however with the right build you can take advantage of quite a few. So if you have a build where you have more really good options than the 35 feats granted from leveling (+ whatever you get from your classes), then it might be worth it to pick a feat. For the record I don't agree that Iron Will is better than +2 to one of your primary abilities, though of course not all are primary. We get soooo many class levels, and they all get better by having higher ability scores (well most do anyway), so if you don't know where you are going, I would recommend ability score.
Okay, I'm bored and itching to build a new character, so I'm just gonna throw out some rolls here and see how things stack up.
- 4+5+6= 15
- 5+5+5= 15
- 6+6+5= 17
- 6+4+3= 13
- 5+5+3= 13
- 5+5+3= 13
- 6+4+2= 12
Looks like I'm dropping Roll 7 for an okay stat spread.
I'll spend my 10 points to get my stats to:
18
18
18
16
13
13
...which is something I can work with.
This is Ouachitonian's submission. Well, I had a profile all filled out, but the site ate it. Now I'm mad. The Hero Lab printout is in there now, as well as the RP buy. I'll go back and reformat it and put in the background, theme, goals, etc later. Right now I'm annoyed with the system and want to go do something else.
I always write in google doc first for character sheets and I always copy whatever I'm about to submit to the site into the clippboard before doing so. Losing posts sucks, sadly the site has an awful "keep logged in system", but there are ways around it.
I use Lazarus, a browser plugin that automatically saves my past forms. It's really handy for the times that the website decides your hard work was a waste of time.
Okay. I think I'm finished. Info in the profile.
Might I suggest Deadly Agility, allowing you to use dex for damage as well? That means you can move more points into con, your fortsave and hp are kinda low...
Hmmm, is CaveToad open to homebrewing stuff at all? Looking to make my kineticist (elemental ascetic)/brawler (steel-breaker)/bard (flame dancer, songhealer) into a non-lethal master, but there doesn't seem to be any way to make the kineticist's blasts non-lethal. In a world with Non-Lethal spell metamagic this seems like an oversight. Was thinking I could homebrew it as a substance infusion perhaps?
Oh, and the new table if it happens, will that start at level 1 or level 3? Been building for level 3 but can delevel if necessary.
Also, also: Is there some sort of template for how to arrange the character sheet for these characters?
Might I suggest Deadly Agility, allowing you to use dex for damage as well? That means you can move more points into con, your fortsave and hp are kinda low...
I'm not familiar with that one. Where is it from?
@Xanya: That HP isn't really low; the scaling bonuses from more Con in this campaign are pretty slight. And there's a kobold feat that uses int/wis for fort save. Advanced Weapon Training also gives a pretty decent incentive to keep Str on a dex fighter, while Mutation Warrior can boost the heck out of Con.
@Peanuts: Search harder! Any blast that deals bludgeoning can be modified by Bludgeoner feat. However, Elemental Ascetic ADDS blast damage to unarmed strikes, which can be nonlethal without penalty—thus, you can make your blasts nonlethal without penalty or any investment.
@Ouchitonian: It's a Path of War feat, part of the allowed 3pp (and immensely broken in any campaign not this complex, as in a non-gestalt environment it makes it impossible to justify STR fighters)
@Peanuts: Search harder! Any blast that deals bludgeoning can be modified by Bludgeoner feat. However, Elemental Ascetic ADDS blast damage to unarmed strikes, which can be nonlethal without penalty—thus, you can make your blasts nonlethal without penalty or any investment.
Oh really? I'd assumed that it would add say the fire blast as fire damage. Fair point on bludgeoneer though, might have to grab that, hmm...
Still wouldn't mind an opinion from CaveToad on the matter though.
@Peanuts: Search harder! Any blast that deals bludgeoning can be modified by Bludgeoner feat. However, Elemental Ascetic ADDS blast damage to unarmed strikes, which can be nonlethal without penalty—thus, you can make your blasts nonlethal without penalty or any investment.Oh really? I'd assumed that it would add say the fire blast as fire damage. Fair point on bludgeoneer though, might have to grab that, hmm...
Yeah. But RAW it's adding that damage directly to your unarmed strike instead of a different, separate damage source. Since unarmed strike damage can be nonlethal, it becomes nonlethal fire damage if the attack does nonlethal physical damage (yeah, that's a thing). For all y'all proposed ascetics.
@Xanya: That HP isn't really low; the scaling bonuses from more Con in this campaign are pretty slight. And there's a kobold feat that uses int/wis for fort save. Advanced Weapon Training also gives a pretty decent incentive to keep Str on a dex fighter, while Mutation Warrior can boost the heck out of Con.
@Ouchitonian: It's a Path of War feat, part of the allowed 3pp (and immensely broken in any campaign not this complex, as in a non-gestalt environment it makes it impossible to justify STR fighters)
Xanya was reduced to below 0 hp in 3 of our first 4 fights and she got maxed con. If she had less, she might have been dead. There are a lot of people that have been knocked out so far in this campaign, the fights are hard. I'm not aware of what uses advanced weapons training give for strength, but is it really better than effectively 3 extra thoughness feats (the effect of boosting con to 20)?
I don't agree that deadly agility is horrendously broken. It's slightly better than pre-errata slashing grace. There are still reasons to go strength even with it existing. I know you are very negative towards pretty much everything from Dreamscarred Press, and while I agree that it's mostly way more powerful than the martial options from paizo, they are still less powerful than an optimized caster.
Err—Xanya, your table's been seeing harder enemies because you min-maxed a CR or two above the rest of us. The difference between 14 Con and 18 Con is about 14%. As for Str—Nox was going for a Dragon Disciple build, which means an extra +4 Str, and so he might want to take advantage of it. Advanced Weapon Training: Trained Grace eventually gives +6 damage, or +7 on a Weapon Master, which means that in his case deadly agility will be a stronger option if his Dex bonus (before DD) is at least 8 higher than his Str bonus (which wouldn't be that hard to achieve with items and things).
I assume there's also flavor—being a would-be dragon, he doesn't want his character to be a weakling. (The same reason I made Teniel's Int his highest starting stat, despite him not using it for anything—I wanted to be able to play the Dalang as annoyingly smart)
And Seize the Opportunity remains the most disgustingly un-balanced feat I've seen in any 3pp in all of Pathfinder (and possibly all of 3.5 as well). That feat literally breaks melee combat, turning every smart fight into nothing but a game of chicken between a bunch of characters with no-save-die AoOs.
Also, optimized casters may do well in PvP—but in most campaigns, it's the martial characters who handle the majority of fights. I dislike PoW initiators because they're prepared spellcasting classes that take all the fun out of melee, while also having so many class features that they make it hard to play a non-initiator. (Makoto and I have both agreed we'd play a PoW class if they had archetypes that traded away the martial discipline stuff)
@Peanuts: Search harder! Any blast that deals bludgeoning can be modified by Bludgeoner feat. However, Elemental Ascetic ADDS blast damage to unarmed strikes, which can be nonlethal without penalty—thus, you can make your blasts nonlethal without penalty or any investment.Oh really? I'd assumed that it would add say the fire blast as fire damage. Fair point on bludgeoneer though, might have to grab that, hmm...
Still wouldn't mind an opinion from CaveToad on the matter though.
I would go with what Teniel has suggested. I might need to read it over myself, but I tend to stick to RAW (with some RAI/common sense) unless its something I have specified and outlined for this campaign.
Okay. I think I'm finished. Info in the profile.
I will add you to the list and review your crunch when I can.
Deadly Agility-yeah, I'm not really familiar with any PoW stuff. Never had an occasion to use it before, and didn't really check it out this time due to its rep of being OP. But since this whole endeavor is a bit OP relative to the regular game, I may give it a look.
HP-Until I read a good way into the thread, I didn't realize that you could rearrange the points from your initial rolls however you wanted, thought only the ten bonus points could do that. So I may go back and shave some off of CHA. Maybe STR too, if I do want Deadly Agility, though I don't look forward to having to go back in and recalculate mods for skills and the like.
I do want it to be flavorful, but Kobold flavor is that they're not high-strength critters. Even though he's exceptional and training to be largely martial, that should still probably hold to an extent. Eventually mutagen, DD boosts, a belt, and perhaps level bonuses(though I think CON has dibs) will still probably jack his strength up plenty.
@Teniel: Actually, incorrect. Kineticist blasts, per the creater of Kineticist, don't really 'allow' for nonlethal damage (they're spell-like abilities!). The reason being is that Kineticist's attacks are too 'inherently wild' to do so. He did argue that the fully physical blasts could do so with DM fiat. I personally fully support it... especially given the fact that one of my Silver Raven ideas relies on it.... but allowing Bludgeoner is actually up to Cavetoad, not simply a RAW certainty! :)
I'd definitely check with Cavetoad on that. (Hint hint, nudge nudge!)
@Teniel: Actually, incorrect. Kineticist blasts, per the creater of Kineticist, don't really 'allow' for nonlethal damage (they're spell-like abilities!). The reason being is that Kineticist's attacks are too 'inherently wild' to do so. He did argue that the fully physical blasts could do so with DM fiat. I personally fully support it... especially given the fact that one of my Silver Raven ideas relies on it.... but allowing Bludgeoner is actually up to Cavetoad, not simply a RAW certainty! :)
Hmm. Well this is probably a case of RAW vs RAI, then.
Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of featsand
You take no penalty on attack rolls for using a lethal bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal damage.
Looking over it again, it's unclear from the wording whether bludgeoner works with ranged attacks, which normally cannot be used nonlethally.
However,
add damage to each of your natural attacks and unarmed strikes until the beginning of your next turn.
It doesn't say "deal damage after an unarmed strike"; this functions the same way as, say, a flaming weapon, which RAW can deal nonlethal fire damage.
So, I noticed a few pages back that Cavetoad mentioned recruitment being continuously open with new players being cycled into new tables. Please correct me if I misunderstood what he was saying in that regard, but if that's the case, I'd love to get in on this.
I'll start by tossing out some stats under the assumption that it's okay if I join. (No hard feelings if I can't or if you've got too many people already, though!)
= 15
= 13
= 18
= 15
= 16
= 14
18, 16, 15, 15, 14, 13 it is, then.
The issue is not that the ability may be treated as a weapon by feats... it's that the ability is not a weapon except in terms of feats. What this means is that you have no legal way to call for nonlethal damage, as spells and SLAs cannot take a -4 to hit to change the attack into a nonlethal attack. Bludgeoner lets you do it for free if you can at all, but nothing lets you do it. Except maybe your DM. Had to find it:
Typically spells and SLAs don't allow that attack penalty, and with the wild and unrestrained nature of elemental energy, I think it's sort of fitting. That said, I'm sure it'd be fine to allow it anyway in a home game for ones that make more sense to allow nonlethal (basically the physical blasts).Hey Mark, Merciful Foliage allows kineticist blasts to deal nonlethal damage without a penalty to attack rolls, is this (currently) the only way to deal nonlethal damage with a blast ?
Or if you take the attack penalty can you use any blast to deal nonlethal ?