We don't need to use the Speak with Dead spell again. Our job isn't to prove Vorkstag committed the arson as an act of malice, it's to exonerate the Beast. It doesn't matter if Vorkstag set the fire by accident or with the intent to kill, as long as he did it and the Beast didn't. Besides, that second scroll is for Bonbon to eat and learn permanently. Plus, while getting more details about Vorkstag's intentions may give Anton more evidence that Vorkstag committed a crime, it still doesn't give us the lawful authority to enter the factory.
Anton, were you going to tell us that Grine detects as evil? If so, then Tibideau would argue that you have a duty to attempt to remove the evil threat, even if it involves breaking minor laws.
We didn't have "permission" to enter any of the other places we've been, really, it's just that they were either abandoned or haunted and nobody wanted to be there.
Bottom line, if we go into the factory without Dantrian and Anton, we'll be in trouble. But I think we should have the XP and loot as the AP provides for us. We'll need it on the next leg of our journey after we leave Lepidstadt.
Tibideau, I hate to disagree but we did have permission along the way so far. The town council employed us to sort out the problems with the prison and everywhere in this book has been abandoned although we have been asked by the Judge to investigate.
The difference here is that we are considering breaking into someone place of business. Yes Grine registered as evil - but only faintly. That could be as simple as him being a total d*ck to his workforce.
Sorry guys, I can see I'm putting up roadblocks here so ultimately I will defer to the group - I just think it's an issue that would be particularly pertinent to Anton.
That's not what I'm saying Anton. It's true that entering would be breaking the law and you have no authority to do so. I'm saying that that fact is not going to change, and that you don't need to enter to continue the story.
I'm also saying the price for following the law will be missing out on loot and XP that module assumes you will get, thus making the rest of the story slightly more difficult. I think it's actually admirable to have a player stick to their character's guns. But it's also a reason I almost never play LG. Because being an adventurer is often an extra-legal proposition. It's the job of essentially killing things and taking their stuff. In fact I find the entire alignment system to be ridiculous and hard to believe. But whatever...Do what you want, I don't care. I'm just an arbitrator.
That's true. Anton now knows Vorkstag was at least responsible for the fire if perhaps not intentional and that Grine is mildly evil. Up to him if that is enough to warrant breaking into the factory to investigate. We also believe they were present at Morast and probably involved in some grave robbing. Remember the human face too.
Still, it's hardly a smoking gun and mostly circumstantial. Maybe the Judges would agree to a warrant if presented with all this but I think Jelani is saying its unlikely. We've done well so far so it might be enough to save Aaron without this.
This is also where it's a bit weird for all Paladins to be LG. Desna isn't the most concerned with laws but her Paladin must be regardless.
Janos will grumble and protest but I'm fine with it either way. Maybe we can be tasked to investigate the factory after the trial based on the evidence.
Also, that's not how detect evil works. It's based off their hit dice. A faint aura means he's either a normal evil person with 5-10 hit dice, an undead with 2 or less HD or an outsider with 1 or less HD.
He could murder rape babies all day long and if he was only level 2 he wouldn't detect as evil at all. The faint aura means he has an evil alignment. To get an evil alignment you have to consistently do evil things. Not just be a dick.
Fair point on the Detect Evil.
As I said, I will go with the group for the purposes of the story.
Let's not let alignment get between friends :)
I think they should definitely change the rules and paladins should be like clerics and be the same alignment as their deity.
Anton, it's good to have the conflict for roleplaying stuff. I'm about to embark on my first LG character myself, I'm sure I'll run into situations like this in the future.
Be interesting to see what Dantrian thinks too. No way we can do it without both of them, but just without Anton? Possible if difficult. Anton could play Kendrao so he doesnt just sit out too.
To assuage your conscience lets look at the code of conduct.
"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good."
Nowhere does it say you have to follow the law. It says you have to respect lawful authority. In this case I think the greater good of potentially finding more evidence to exonerate the Beast, and preventing whatever evil is going on inside the chymic works would outweigh the lawful side. Also as Janos points out, Lady Desna is not lawful. While she respects your integrity, she doesn't care in this situation.
That does nothing to remove the stick of law from Dan's rear though.
We have no evidence that Grine has harmed anyone aside from his being evil.
If we knew these two were experimenting on kids or something then yes, Anton would be kicking down the door. But the fact is we don't. I just can't see a truly lawful good character barging in on a hunch - that's totally chaotic to me.
Whether Desna is lawful or not is largely irrelevant because Anton is. He wants to do the right thing but he also wants things done right.
Good can only be achieved through order, no matter what other philosophies espouse. In this regard, you might hold laws to be absolutely necessary for the good of all, and refuse to participate in actions that would bring you into conflict with the law. The law is black and white, so you brook no conversations regarding its spirit
I've had this debate many times and my personal opinion is that paladins should be hardasses when it comes to the law. It is a difficult class to play because they have these kinds of restrictions.
That stick remains!
To concede a point though, Dantrian would be willing to aid with a break-in AFTER the trial is concluded. Though a good and reasoned argument now could also persuade him. He just doesn't see a way around it that doesn't jeopardize their job as the Beast's council and defense.
I know Judge Daramind said to keep her name out of our investigations, but is there any hope that she could/would issue us a warrant to enter the Chymic Works?
For what it's worth, Dantrian's argument about *solid* repercussions is more compelling to B'yelka than, 'cause it's wrong' :)
And I would take that as Dantrians higher intelligence than Antons. He can't give a strong reasoned argument like Dan.
Dantrian's argument about repercussions is good. We're dealing with a lawful proceeding here, so doing things non-lawfully could be a real detriment.
I applaud you guys for not going with the murder-hobo route. I wonder if the AP writers even considered that possibility.
In the new "Inner Sea Gods" I came across this under Desna:
"Follow a Hunch, but Bear the Consequences: If faced
with a sudden problem, worshipers should be guided
by intuition and emotions if reason doesn’t provide an
obvious answer. If this leads to something harmful, they
are responsible for repairing the harm that is done."
In the new "Inner Sea Gods" I came across this under Desna:
"Follow a Hunch, but Bear the Consequences: If faced
with a sudden problem, worshipers should be guided
by intuition and emotions ifreasonDantrian doesn’t provide an
obvious answer. If this leads to something harmful, they
are responsible for repairing the harm that is done."
=P
To be completely clear, this is the legal situation - You are not law enforcement, and won't ever be unless you give up your careers as adventurers and go apply for a job. You are independent investigators for the Beast's trial only, with no legal authority.
If you go to the judges, they will be like "What are you doing? You're supposed to be investigating the Beast, not our productive businesses. If you suspect them of crime, report it to the guard."
If you go to the cops, they will be like "So you want to charge misters Vorkstag and Grine with a crime? What evidence do you have? Can you please file this report? Thanks! Now let the police do our job, and stay out of the way or you'll end up in prison."
Dantrian and Anton are totally correct on the legal front. The end. It's a purely in-character personality choice, which they are stonewalling. Unless the other three of you want to go in without them and incur their ire, we should move on.
This arrangement of evidence seems to average our chances the most.
How's it look, folks?
Anton +21 = 11 + 10 (Brada's connection w/ Vorkstag & Grine)
B'yelka +19 = +14 + 5 (Karl's testimony that V&G frequented Sanctuary)
Drosil +27 = +7 + 20 (Brada's posthumous eye witness testimony identifying Vorkstag as arsonist)
I'm happy with that.
Sounds good to me. Unless someone catches up to Janos, you may have find him at the Inn and convince him to come to dinner. He accepts the choice, but doesn't have to be happy about it.
Wow...I apparently clicked the "don't tell me about updates to this thread" link a couple months ago, and missed a ton.
To recap, yes, I was perfectly fine going with the two daggers (mithral +1 and +1 shape-changer bane), and getting rid of the rapier. I had thought we had done that already, actually.
As far as the rest of it, I'm fine with presenting the evidence as suggested, and, while Drosil isn't thrilled with it, I'm fine with moving on.
Wow...I apparently clicked the "don't tell me about updates to this thread" link a couple months ago, and missed a ton.
Literally loled when I read that.
I chuckled as well =)
Ok - updated the rapier/shapechanger bane daggers in the inventory log. I think our first order of business after the trial/hearing/whatever should be to get Anton a magicified bow!
That would be great. I don't think B'yelka is going to want to share any cash with me though!
Share and make you indebted to her? Oh, of course not. Especially now that she knows how stuffed up you are about 'upholding' the law ;)
And here I thought Dantrian's observations would draw the B'yelka aggro off of Anton =P
Just because he's #2 on the hate list does not mean he's off the list :-p
Does that mean Dantrian is #1 on both the Hate and Secretly Love lists?
*bah*!!! Men!
Does anyone else want to chime in at the dinner table or are we wanting to jump into the final presentment of evidences?
I guess Tibideau is a bit tired after talking to the head and weathering a disagreement. Bedtime it is!
Janos will be ready for the next day.
Level 7 is a big one for Bards: Move Action Performance and 3rd Level spells!
Haste and one other... any suggestions? Displacement, Good Hope (I like this one...) or for this campaign, Daylight?
3rd level spells for Bard is a gold mine. And yeah, Daylight isn't one I would normally consider, but it could be better for this campaign.
Others to think about: Confusion (though it has a save), Dispel Magic, Mass Feather Step, Invisibility Sphere, and the best spell ever, Mad Monkeys.
Tibideau has Dispel Magic, and plans to prepare it on a regular basis, so B'yelka doesn't need that. He doesn't have access to Haste or any Invisibility stuff.
lol Janos, I think Mad Monkeys is more Tibi's style ;) I can just see him giggling hysterically when that swarm lands!
About Confusion: B'yelka can push a moderately high DC for that save, my concern is more about Carrion Crown. We *expect* to fight lots of Undead and B'yelka has a spell she has never cast (Charm Person). So, it's not the saves, but the relative lack of true targets. See also, Tibi's Sleep Hex 'issue' :)
Invisibility Sphere may be a money maker, though. Party Invis, or mad party buff Good Hope? Let's face it, +2 Morale bonus to Hit, Damage, Saves, and Skills coupled with +2 Competence Bonus to Hit and Damage... heh... I love Bards! :D
Level 7!
+7 hp (5 + Con mod + fav class)
+1 BAB
+1 Hero Point
+1 Feat: Power Attack
+1d6 Sneak Attack (4d6)
+Torturous transformation: add anthropomorphic animal to formula book as 2nd level extract - usable only as 2 hour procedure
+1 3rd Level Forumlae: thorn body
+1 3rd Level Extract Slot/day
+8 Skill Points
+1 craft (alchemy)
+1 disable device
+1 knowledge (arcana)
+1 knowledge (nature)
+1 knowledge (planes)
+1 knowledge (religion)
+1 perception
+1 spellcraft
Oh boy! This was Dantrian's final level in Alchemist!
side note: i will never use that torturous transformation ability. blah.
B'yelka, you've some tough choices ahead! Those all sound like great options.
lol Janos, I think Mad Monkeys is more Tibi's style ;) I can just see him giggling hysterically when that swarm lands!
About Confusion: B'yelka can push a moderately high DC for that save, my concern is more about Carrion Crown. We *expect* to fight lots of Undead and B'yelka has a spell she has never cast (Charm Person). So, it's not the saves, but the relative lack of true targets. See also, Tibi's Sleep Hex 'issue' :)
Invisibility Sphere may be a money maker, though. Party Invis, or mad party buff Good Hope? Let's face it, +2 Morale bonus to Hit, Damage, Saves, and Skills coupled with +2 Competence Bonus to Hit and Damage... heh... I love Bards! :D
Aren't inspire courage and good hope both morale bonuses? If so, they won't stack, so keep that in mind.
Nope - inspire courage is a competence bonus to attack/damage, while, yes, good hope is morale. So they do stack, and could both be started in a single round. :-)
Anton level 7
+8p
+1 skill point in diplomacy, perception and sense motive
Manyshot feat
Learning eagles splendor as my spell for now
Drosil Level 7
+7 HP
Dazzling Display feat (in preparation for Shattered Defenses next level)
+1d6 Sneak Attack damage (+4d6 now)
+9 Skill points (Acrobatics, Disable Device, Intimidate x4, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth)
iirc, Inspire was a Morale in 3.x. Did I mention I love Pathfinder, too? lol
Drosil, one day man. One day you and I will be flanking a dude and it will be an amazing display of d6's. One day.
Inspire Courage is a competence bonus to attacks and morale bonus to saves.
So I'd like opinions on feats for Janos too:
Deadly Aim: Really up his archery game here.
Lunge: Hit things 5 feet away. Could be more fun when enlarged.
Step Up: Counter the 5 foot step tactic, and possibly the first of a nice chain
Favored Defense: Not something I would normally consider, but with the undead heavy campaign, this could be a huge boost. Immediately a +2 AC vs all undead and will grow.
I find Step Up to be more troublesome than not in a pbp format, so that's the only one I'd advise against just because of the experience of trying to make good of it myself.
I see Janos has Cleave. I've had tremendous success with Cleaving Finish if you've a mind to pursue the Cleave tree a little further. It synergizes extremely well with Lunge and a reach weapon. It's super nice that the next target doesn't have to be adjacent to the one you drop, just within reach.
Also, lead blades + Vital Strike could be super gross (read as: awesome).
Lunge or Deadly Aim. Lunge is great for a Melee type, being able to affect more targets is always a good thing. Deadly Aim is good, too. However, do you want to emphasize Janos' shooting or axin'?
Last chance to weigh in! Invisibility Sphere or Good Hope Invis gives us more options while Good Hope gives B'yelka more of what she was built to do: make you all
I think we'll be better off with Good Hope before Invisibility Sphere. Of course, Drosil isn't lacking in stealth, so we may be a little biased. :-P