After Impossible Magic, what other caster options are you yearning for?

[Kuroshimodo]

Hey everyone! Just like the title says, what other caster classes are you yearning for after the release of Impossible Magic? Personally I would love to see a dedicated Illusionist class since I loved the Illusionist fantasy back in AD&D 1e and think it would be a neat homage to early D&D. With how they cooked with the Necromancer class, I would be eager to see how Paizo would create an Illusionist. Besides the Illusionist class, I would love to see an archetype that is meant for domain spells but with a twist. I was thinking maybe Psychic Class Archetype (or a regular archetype) where their key ability score is Wisdom and they can amp domain spells. Maybe call the amp versions prayers?

But I was curious what you all might want to see next for caster options.

[moosher12]

Hm...

While I am happy we got a new archetype to still support the ninja fantasy, it's still a case of too many archetypes needed to fill out the fantasy, making it difficult to manage without free archetype and removing the 3 feat archetype limit. So I'd either want Spell Trickster updated as a full Rogue class archetype that offers additional feats rather than simply a racket, or for a more bespoke class to fulfill the magical ninja fantasy. Of course it does not have to be called ninja, Trickster would be a good name for such a class. I can see a potential of making it a class where subclass determines magic type. Thinking back to the rogue spell trickster being able to pick any one spellcasting archetype, a trickster class could potentially choose to specialize in any one tradition to fit the multiple themes of trickster. Of course, we have the classic arcane trickster from 1E. But what about a fey-trickster themed nature. Occult trickster obviously works fine because occult is well suited to espionage and heists. And lastly, I can see a place for religious trickster for worshippers of mercurial gods, as well as for assassin wings of certain churches. Trickster I'd see as a bounded caster along the lines of Magus, melding the 2 slot spellcasting array with its own version of sneak attack, and various feats to support magic for subterfuge. Though I'm torn whether it should be spontaneous or prepared. Prepared melds well with the utility, but spontaneous would help set it apart from the magus.

On top of that, I still want a Mesmerist, which I envision as prepared 3-slot occult caster. It's strategic space in a team would be as a face character that is both magical (which excludes envoy), and not a theater-kid/performer, plus (which excludes bard, plus they'd be more subtle than a bard). It would take advantage of the occult spell to streamline social encounters with the use of illusion and mental spells, and occult would allow it to even be an off-healer via soothe.

[Blave]

Pretty happy overall. I'd settle for one or two arcane witch patrons that don't suck.

[BotBrain]

I think there is still space for some more gish or gish adjacent options. Not necessarily a full class, (I'd quite like a year without classes) but archetypes for classes that could support it. We have Magus as our Arcane Gish and battle harbinger (yes, i know it's not considered good) as a divine gish, but there's nothing solid for occult and primal.

Necromancer can kind of operate as an occult gish, but I'd still rather something that's much more focused on hitting things as part of the kit, and there's just nothing for primal right now.

If it were up to me, I'd adapt Skald as a bard archtype for the occult list, and have it focused around landing hits to sustain its exclusive focus spells or just regular spells.

For primal... I'm not sure. The obvious answer is adapt shifter but I would much rather shifter be entirely spell-less with a thaumaturge-esque chassis where you have multiple "subclasses" you evolve as you level. Another option is the 4e Warden, but idk what class would act as the host class there. Champion with some liberal changes? Idk.

Outside of that new stuff for existing classes is always welcome.

[Pacifist Paladin]

I agree with moosher that some sort of trickster class would be a welcome addition, and I've wondered if that's why they haven't remastered Spell Trickster rogue yet. Adds another bounded caster (we need a new name for them. Martial Caster? idk).
The main thing it would need is a solid mechanic to justify it being bounded, similar to magus spellstrike or summoner's act together. Maybe something that let's you combine a skill action and spell?

As for other spellcaster's while necromancer has definitely relieved the pressure there are still a lot of unfulfilled conjurer fantasies that people can't really do. Could either go class archetype for necromancer or a new bespoke class, but it would need to have a new take on summoning in that case.

[exequiel759]

Pacifist Paladin wrote:

I agree with moosher that some sort of trickster class would be a welcome addition, and I've wondered if that's why they haven't remastered Spell Trickster rogue yet. Adds another bounded caster (we need a new name for them. Martial Caster? idk).

The main thing it would need is a solid mechanic to justify it being bounded, similar to magus spellstrike or summoner's act together. Maybe something that let's you combine a skill action and spell?

As for other spellcaster's while necromancer has definitely relieved the pressure there are still a lot of unfulfilled conjurer fantasies that people can't really do. Could either go class archetype for necromancer or a new bespoke class, but it would need to have a new take on summoning in that case.

I don't really think we are going to get a bounded caster now that the only two bounded casters turned into regular casters with 2 spell slots.

But I do agree we need a replacement for Eldritch Trickster. 3.5's Beguiler could IMO work as a baseline for a mesmerist-type class with the new "bounded" (2 spell slots) caster chassis.

[PossibleCabbage]

I really want a second dedicated primal caster. For Arcane we have the Wizard and Magus; for Occult we have the Bard, Necromancer, and Psychic; for Divine we have the Cleric, Oracle, and Animist; but for Primal it's just the Druid.

There has to be a second concept that revolves around Vital+Material essence.

[Roadlocator]

I have toyed with the idea of an archetype for sorcerer that causes them to manifest physical aspects of their bloodline, maybe getting a sort of build your own natural attack like how an eidolon's attacks work. Flavor wise, I think its a winner, but getting it to work has been a challenge.

[Roadlocator]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I really want a second dedicated primal caster. For Arcane we have the Wizard and Magus; for Occult we have the Bard, Necromancer, and Psychic; for Divine we have the Cleric, Oracle, and Animist; but for Primal it's just the Druid.

There has to be a second concept that revolves around Vital+Material essence.

I think part of the problem here is that druid is so broad in scope already its hard to come up with something that feels distinct enough to stand on its own. Not impossible mind, just difficult. I certainly have had no success

[Theaitetos]

Primal still offers Fey themes that aren't really represented by the Druid. The Whispering Way offers something else as well. And while there is the Wildshape Druid, there is still no real Shifter.

They could also rework the Elementalist into something actually useful instead of the hot garbage that it is right now. Should probably be omni-elemental to avoid stepping on the Kineticist theme then though.

[Mathmuse]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I really want a second dedicated primal caster. For Arcane we have the Wizard and Magus; for Occult we have the Bard, Necromancer, and Psychic; for Divine we have the Cleric, Oracle, and Animist; but for Primal it's just the Druid.

There has to be a second concept that revolves around Vital+Material essence.

How about a Practitioner class that practices obeah, a Caribbean spellcasting and healing magic. Dr. Facilier from Disney's The Princess and the Frog can serve as an example. Though this class would work with the spirit world, they do not perform spirit magic. Instead, they pay the spirits to receive primal magic. The payment is the theme, because so many other magic classes serve a god, patron, or other spirit. Instead, Practitioner bargains for their magic and has no obligation to their spirits (unlike Dr. Facilier).

The Practioner could have Wisdom as their key ability, the wisdom to tell a good bargain from a bad bargain.

What does the Practitioner receive for payment? It would have to be slotted spells, because focus spells would be too easy to refocus via a multiclass archetype. The Practitioner would receive enough spell slots to operate as a mediocre spellcaster, but payment would give more spell slots during the day. I don't know whether the class should be prepared or spontaneous, but the abilities to generate new slots would make prepared casters more flexible.

Payment would have to be cheap but would require time, such as a 10-minute activity to offer the item to the spirits, and have limit per day. Different specialties would have different offering methods. A war spirit would want the blood of dead enemies. A farm spirit would want offerings of food, which then appear before starving villagers far away. A tavern spirit might want a small shot of alcoholic beverage. A thief spirit would want stolen items, even just pennies. An art spirit would accept gifts of art crafted from cheap materials by the Practitioner.

Theaitetos wrote:

Primal still offers Fey themes that aren't really represented by the Druid.

The class could bargain with Fey instead of bargaining with spirits.

[Pacifist Paladin]

exequiel759 wrote:

I don't really think we are going to get a bounded caster now that the only two bounded casters turned into regular casters with 2 spell slots.

But I do agree we need a replacement for Eldritch Trickster. 3.5's Beguiler could IMO work as a baseline for a mesmerist-type class with the new "bounded" (2 spell slots) caster chassis.

That's what I was meaning. There isn't really a good shorthand for "class that gets a mix of martial and magic progression" yet. My instinct is gish but gets confusing when people already talk about necromancer or animist gishes.

As much as I would love a dedicated primal elementalist class I doubt we'll get one when that theming is already so wonderfully delivered by the kineticist. Maybe some sort of aura support class? Summon a nature spirit that gives buffs/debuffs in an area while you sling primal spells. Gives a primal take on a conjurer to boot.

[Deriven Firelion]

What would I like to see for casters?

1. A wizard that is built better for PF2 with spontaneous casting and better focus spells.

2. A summoner that works like the new necromancer using different types of summoned creatures. That necromancer feels more like a summoner than the summoner which feels like the eidolon combat class. I wish the necromancer was designed before the summoner so they could have used that as inspiration for a summoner class.

3. Eidolons with more customization options and abilities closer to what they are based on like the old Unchained Summoner.

4. Improved summons at higher level. Five levels behind is too far behind to be useful.

5. More feats for some of the classes with few or bad feats like the wizard, animist, psychic, summoner, and oracle.

[Lamp Flower]

Some kind of fey caster archetype could be neat for primal casters. Fey have this weird thing where they are very much primal beings but the kinds of abilities they are known for are better represented by mental and illusion spells, neither of which the primal list has very many of. AFAIK, we don't have any information about the archetypes that will be in Feybound, so there's an opportunity to do something with this.

The dedication would require the ability to cast primal spells from spell slots and could let you choose one or two spells with the mental or illusion trait from each rank you have spell slots for and add those to your spell list. It might even be fine to just add all of them to your list because you'd still have to prepare them or add them to your repertoire. Alternatively, a spontaneous caster could get extra mental/illusion spells to its repertoire and a prepared caster lower-rank extra slots that automatically have the chosen spells prepared in them. Though, that does seem a bit strong for a dedication if its level 2.

The later feats could give you focus spells from existing sources (trickery domain, fey bloodline) and potentially completely new ones. Some spellshapes would also be nice. (Conceal spell is a natural fit, but completely original spellshapes would of course be cool.) Add in some small non-spell magical abilities, and you've got a nice archetype.

[rainzax]

Flexible Spellcaster that doesn't Archetype lock.

=)

[wheatleymr]

An elemental summoner class, inspired by the Captain archetype and the necromancer class.

[wheatleymr]

Lamp Flower wrote:

... Fey have this weird thing where they are very much primal beings but the kinds of abilities they are known for are better represented by mental and illusion spells, neither of which the primal list has very many of. ...

Developing this - "Fey Magic" is almost closer to an Occult list with some Primal, than Primal with some Occult.

A core part of that "occult" theme is the idea that they understand the "old ways", the old contracts between the gods and the mortal world.
- Rules of dominion, demesn, ownership.
- Rules of hospitality.
- Rules of hierarchy.

Plants and animals, yes - but not raw elemental forces themselves.

[wheatleymr]

I'd really like to see some more subtle elemental-themed items:
- A staff of elemental control (summoning, walls, movement.)
- A staff of elemental cunning (no spells that do damage, heal, or provide temp hp. One spell from each element, and spread amongst the elements for higher level ones.)

[Red Griffyn]

The same thing I (and many in the community) have been asking for since Secrets of Magic was published in September 2021. More Martial balanced Magus like options with different spell lists and mechanical underpinnings. Example ideas:

Divine Gish:
- Battle Harbinger (if Paizo had followed magus design benchmarks)
- 1e Warpriest - An action compression self buffer divine martial gish

Occult Gish:
- Mesmerist: A single target debuff/buff focused martial gish (Mental/illusion magics-> think SF2e luminary with spells and very different flavour)
- Skald: A party wide buffer with different focus than bard (think giving out weapon runes, rage type effects, etc.)
- Sound Striker/Thunder Caller: A sonic based martial gish

Primal Gish:
- Shifter: Wildshaper that has the same progression as druid (in terms of access to forms) but makes the forms actually comparable to martials with class features at all levels (think Spell+ that go off spell modifier so they don't struggle on even levels). Something that gives limited casting/item use while wildshaped.
- Shaman: A primal based nature spirits battle witch (unique hex/cantrips focused on sustains with flexibility in the day.

Other:
- Synthesis Summoner: An actual mechanically relevant way to blend into your eidolon instead of the far too conservative and boring "Meld into Eidolon" remaster summoner feat.
- A Martial Alchemist that gives up some versatility in alchemical options, but gets martial scaling (either with bombs, weapons, or mutagen options).

Scope includes:
- Martial Weapon Scaling
- Martial Armor Scaling
- Martial Saves Scaling
- Martial Weapon Specialization Scaling
- D8+ HD
- 2 Spell slots/spell rank (the new magus/summoner set-up)
- A singular mechanical distinct function (e.g., spell strike for magus) as per the above high level briefs.

Scope Exclusions:
- Caster Weapon Scaling
- Caster Armor Scaling
- Caster Saves Scaling
- Caster Weapon Specialization Scaling
- D6 HD
- A feat that gets you a +1/+2 status bonus with hoops to justify giving the above non-martial scalings (e.g., Reaper Necromancer, Animist, Wildshaping druid, etc.).

What We Keep Getting:
- Caster balanced gishes like necromancer, animist, war mage, etc.
- Pure Martial gishes with/without focus spells like runesmith, monk, ranger, SF2e luminary
- Very poorly design options like the battle harbinger
- Overly conservative non-bold design treating these desires as ticky box exercises and not real swings at something worth having (e.g., remastered meld into eidolon)
- Community suggestions of: "Be a martial with a MC Caster build" even though it results in vastly delayed spell rank scaling/access, less spell slots, archtype lockout, and extremely limited access to interesting gish caster feats."

Design Goals:
- A class or class archetype that follows magus design benchmarks but has a different spell list.
- A resource balance tension (not enough spells to go all out all day, but enough to make judicious use in combat with some utility out of combat)
- Spell Rank scaling of a caster without the full power of a caster (pushing people to buff, support, utility, or melee/touch options casters don't typically take because it might be suicidal to be up close in combat)
- A reduced martial damage feature (e.g., arcane cascade) to balance out spell access.
- On level access to some of the interesting caster feats (if done as a class archetype) like effortless concentration, wildshape forms, bardic spells like house of the imaginary walls, cleric replenishment of war/raise symbol/channel smite, etc.).

Naysayers:
This isn't written to slander the cool designs of any options we've gotten (meld into eidolon and battle harbinger aside). It just isn't what I or a very repetitively vocal cross section of the community have asked for. I'm not here to debate whether what I want is better or worse than what we got. It doesn't matter, because I still want it for my own reasons and because it works well with my playstyle/what I enjoy.

TLDR:
Paizo has spent 4+ years throwing darts everywhere BUT in this specific design space. They have claimed to satisfy this design space (e.g., 'we listened and gave you a martial necromancer') but continue to fail to understand (or refuse to accept) that this is design space the community wants fleshed out!

[RatGoon]

Mathmuse wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I really want a second dedicated primal caster. For Arcane we have the Wizard and Magus; for Occult we have the Bard, Necromancer, and Psychic; for Divine we have the Cleric, Oracle, and Animist; but for Primal it's just the Druid.

There has to be a second concept that revolves around Vital+Material essence.

How about a Practitioner class that practices obeah, a Caribbean spellcasting and healing magic. Dr. Facilier from Disney's The Princess and the Frog can serve as an example. Though this class would work with the spirit world, they do not perform spirit magic. Instead, they pay the spirits to receive primal magic. The payment is the theme, because so many other magic classes serve a god, patron, or other spirit. Instead, Practitioner bargains for their magic and has no obligation to their spirits (unlike Dr. Facilier).

The Practioner could have Wisdom as their key ability, the wisdom to tell a good bargain from a bad bargain.

What does the Practitioner receive for payment? It would have to be slotted spells, because focus spells would be too easy to refocus via a multiclass archetype. The Practitioner would receive enough spell slots to operate as a mediocre spellcaster, but payment would give more spell slots during the day. I don't know whether the class should be prepared or spontaneous, but the abilities to generate new slots would make prepared casters more flexible.

Payment would have to be cheap but would require time, such as a 10-minute activity to offer the item to the spirits, and have limit per day. Different specialties would have different offering methods. A war spirit would want the blood of dead enemies. A farm spirit would want offerings of food, which then appear before starving villagers far away. A tavern spirit might want a small shot of alcoholic beverage. A thief spirit would want stolen items, even just pennies. An art spirit would accept gifts of art crafted from cheap...

I think this is a really cool idea!

Spontaneous versus prepared for this class is interesting; spontaneous reads to me like the Practitioner can bargain for some general 'primal magic' they can use how they see fit, while prepared would make the payments feel a lot more binding in nature, since you could only change the spell you get with a new payment.

You could even have the spellcasting type be a subclass as well. Psychic's got two subclass choices so it's not unheard of for a spellcaster.

[Thaumascourge]

Eldamon Trainer but an official class.

[Teridax]

I think there's room for a fortune-telling class with mechanics that let them feel like they're influencing fate and predicting the future. It's a roleplay-rich theme that hasn't really been fully explored in a class, but also mechanically it'd be interesting to have a prepared caster that could genuinely obtain information about what's coming up ahead of time and prepare accordingly. I think there's also room for mechanics similar to Prescient Planner where you get to pull something off that's well-suited to the current occasion, but it's flavored as something you knew and prepared for ahead of time.

[AestheticDialectic]

Give wizards the feature the play test technomancer had where they can swap prepared spells for curriculum spells, and switch them to 4 unrestricted slots. Then maybe also consider their ability to use focus points to apply two spellshapes onto a spell or one action and load up their feats full of cool new ***exclusive*** spellshapes that give slotted spells more modularity. Both of these would bring up the power floor, and bring down the skill floor, to allow players to play the class more competently without changing the core design

Outside of this, I am not in a want for anything. We have so many casters covering so many concepts, niches and play styles. I am actually at a point that I am not really clamoring for anything but fleshing out classes and I don't want to see any new ones

[Dargoth876]

I'll go a bit where Deriven Firelion went, with a true summoner. I could have this trope in PF1 summoner, with their faster spellcasting. PF2 summoner went exclusively to its Eidolon which is fine but leaves a void. PF2 Sumonner is more an animist... oh wait that is something else that is more like a channeler...

I'd name it a "Caller"? I see this as a spellcasters archetype, since every class and tradition have their summon spells. A bard caller would summon creatures of legends, the priests would summon celestials or some such, etc.

This archetype should be able to acquire these things :
- 2-action summoning or actions compression with summoning.
- Action compression with the sustain action for summoned creature
- Buffed summoned creatures, or auto-heighten +1 summon spells.
- A buff to sustain one more summoned creature...
- Master Summoner/Legendary Summoner, or perhaps a "summoning font" with highest spell level.

[AestheticDialectic]

Mathmuse wrote:

How about a Practitioner class that practices obeah, a Caribbean spellcasting and healing magic. Dr. Facilier from Disney's The Princess and the Frog can serve as an example. Though this class would work with the spirit world, they do not perform spirit magic. Instead, they pay the spirits to receive primal magic. The payment is the theme, because so many other magic classes serve a god, patron, or other spirit. Instead, Practitioner bargains for their magic and has no obligation to their spirits (unlike Dr. Facilier).

The Practioner could have Wisdom as their key ability, the wisdom to tell a good bargain from a bad bargain.

What does the Practitioner receive for payment? It would have to be slotted spells, because focus spells would be too easy to refocus via a multiclass archetype. The Practitioner would receive enough spell slots to operate as a mediocre spellcaster, but payment would give more spell slots during the day. I don't know whether the class should be prepared or spontaneous, but the abilities to generate new slots would make prepared casters more flexible.

Payment would have to be cheap but would require time, such as a 10-minute activity to offer the item to the spirits, and have limit per day. Different specialties would have different offering methods. A war spirit would want the blood of dead enemies. A farm spirit would want offerings of food, which then appear before starving villagers far away. A tavern spirit might want a small shot of alcoholic beverage. A thief spirit would want stolen items, even just pennies. An art spirit would accept gifts of art crafted from cheap materials by the Practitioner.

This is what I read witches as already being in many cases. There really isn't a single word about witches in the game that they serve their patron, or that it is necessarily the kind of magic sugar daddy it is in 5e. Witches are intelligence based, because I believe the patron offers knowledge of how to use magic, not the magical power itself. Making them thematically a wizard with a supernatural instructor in many cases, but I can easily see what you're suggesting being another way to interpret the relationship with a patron

[TheTownsend]

Teridax wrote:

I think there's room for a fortune-telling class with mechanics that let them feel like they're influencing fate and predicting the future. It's a roleplay-rich theme that hasn't really been fully explored in a class, but also mechanically it'd be interesting to have a prepared caster that could genuinely obtain information about what's coming up ahead of time and prepare accordingly. I think there's also room for mechanics similar to Prescient Planner where you get to pull something off that's well-suited to the current occasion, but it's flavored as something you knew and prepared for ahead of time.

Honestly, I wish this sort of thing was more incorporated into the Oracle, that being sort of what the word means. But hey, as long as we've got the Necromancer, the other former Wizard subclasses seem like open territory! The Diviner seems like it might be a Wis based Occult caster, which is a fun niche.

Actually, given a lot of comments seem to be itching for things like an Illusionist, an Enchanter, and a Conjurer, that seems like an easy framework to build off of for new caster classes, diverging the way Necro did from Wizard's Tradition and mechanics. Hell, maybe something like a Transmuter could be our new dedicated Primal caster, a support class built entirely around altering physical matter with a lot of gishy shapeshifting options.

[Theaitetos]

Teridax wrote:

I think there's room for a fortune-telling class with mechanics that let them feel like they're influencing fate and predicting the future.

This reminds me of The Raven Black's post about what classes you are still longing for, though tbh the entire thread here does ofc.

In order to change that a bit, I would like to point out to everyone that this thread title is asking about caster options, not just caster classes!

So I will repeat my desire to bring new types of magic items, first some to replace legacy stuff – like Rings of Wizardry (but not just for arcane casters) & grimoires (but not just for prepared spells) –, then some revamped 1e things like (metamagic) rods, and then more new things like orb/dagger/crystal/… implements with all kinds of abilities; for example, I'm dearly missing a way to add material traits to certain spells, e.g. adding silver or cold iron to all metal spells (not just Needle Darts), and give non-fire elemental spells the option to deal something else than just physical damage (e.g. water→cold, earth→acid, metal→electricity, wood→poison/vitality, air→sonic, …).

Oh, and some general sanctification option for divine casters (sorcerer, witch, summoner, …) would be appreciated. Faith Tattoo is an option, but only 4 levels in and expensive.

[Teridax]

Re: caster options on a broader level, I'd quite like to see an official Paizo take on spheres of power. This was a popular homebrew for PF1e that divided magic and other aspects of the game into thematic domains called spheres, which allowed casters to commit to one or more specific themes. This I think is somewhat missing in PF2e despite being an increasingly popular trope in fiction, and so I think it might be worth implementing. In particular, I think such a system ought to have the following:

1. This system ought to enable commitment to a more limited theme -- not reward with more power, but instead give more dedicated casters access to benefits that generalists can't really be allowed to have. In particular, reducing daily resource limitations around magic of one's themes could be one way of enabling thematic commitment, in a way similar to the Kineticist.

2. As a corollary to the above, this system ought to let specialized casters deal with current hard counters. Immunities are fine when you're expected to be able to throw out a dozen other spells that don't hit it, not so much when the hard counter affects your central theme, e.g. mindless enemies against a controller mentalist type.

3. This system should try to make sure casters committed to a particular theme are still encouraged to diversify within that theme. If someone wants to play a pyromancer, for instance, they should have room to pick up more utility- and area control-oriented fire spells such as cauterize wounds or flame dancer, and shouldn't be optimal just spamming fireball all the time.

Paizo experimented with more thematic spellcasting in the past via the Elementalist class archetype, but in my opinion focused purely on the limitations rather than the rewards, which is why the archetype ultimately failed. There is room in my opinion to try again and see if thematic spellcasting can be introduced to PF2e.

[Mathmuse]

Lamp Flower wrote:

Some kind of fey caster archetype could be neat for primal casters. Fey have this weird thing where they are very much primal beings but the kinds of abilities they are known for are better represented by mental and illusion spells, neither of which the primal list has very many of. AFAIK, we don't have any information about the archetypes that will be in Feybound, so there's an opportunity to do something with this.

Curious about how primal the fey are, I took a sample consisting of all non-unique 3rd-level spellcasting fey:

Azhana Primal Innate Spells DC 20, attack +12; 2nd entangling flora, laughing fit, shape wood; 1st sleep (×3); Cantrips (2nd) figment, light, tangle vine; Constant (2nd) speak with animals
Beiran Frosthunt Primal Innate Spells DC 17; 1st chilling spray (x3); Cantrips (2nd) frostbite
Draxie Primal Innate Spells DC 20; 2nd invisibility, revealing light; 1st illusory disguise (×3); Cantrips (1st) figment, light, prestidigitation
Dryad Primal Innate Spells DC 20, attack +12; 5th nature's pathway (×2); 4th charm (×3), suggestion; 2nd entangling flora (at will), one with plants (at will); Cantrips (2nd) tangle vine
Durtik Primal Innate Spells DC 17, attack +9; 1st grease, mending (x2); Cantrips (1st) live wire
Dvorovoi Primal Innate Spells DC 20; 2nd entangling flora, speak with animals (at will); 1st charm (animals only), command (animals only), mending; Cantrips (2nd) prestidigitation, telekinetic hand
Quickling Primal Innate Spells DC 20; 2nd shatter; 1st ventriloquism; Cantrips (2nd) dancing lights, prestidigitation
Unicorn Primal Innate Spells DC 21; 5th nature's pathway; 3rd cleanse affliction, heal (×2); Cantrips (2nd) light
Bogey Occult Innate Spells DC 18; 1st fear (x2); Cantrips (1st) ghost sound, message

Of the 9 fey in that sample, 8 call their spellcasting "primal" and 1 calls its spellcasting "occult." However, I see that some non-primal spells are among their so-called primal spells, so let me sort all the spells by their traditions. If more than one fey has the same spell, I counted the spell multiple times. I skipped the cantrips because those tend to be in all four traditions.

Arcane, Divine, Occult (1) command
Arcane, Divine, Occult, Primal (5) fear, mending x2, revealing light, ventriloquism
Arcane, Occult (5) illusory disguise, invisibility, laughing fit, sleep, suggestion
Arcane, Occult, Primal (2) charm x2
Arcane, Primal (6) chilling spray, entangling flora x3, grease, shape wood
Divine, Occult, Primal (1) cleanse affliction
Divine, Primal (1) heal
Occult, Primal (1) shatter
Primal (4) nature's pathway x2, one with plants, speak with animals

The count is 26 spells with 20 spells on the primal list and 6 not on the primal list. Also 19 on the arcane list, 8 on the divine list, and 15 on the occult list. And the 6 non-primal spells support Lamp Flower's claim that the fey borrow mental and illusion spells from non-primal lists.

[Mathmuse]

Lamp Flower wrote:

The dedication would require the ability to cast primal spells from spell slots and could let you choose one or two spells with the mental or illusion trait from each rank you have spell slots for and add those to your spell list. It might even be fine to just add all of them to your list because you'd still have to prepare them or add them to your repertoire. Alternatively, a spontaneous caster could get extra mental/illusion spells to its repertoire and a prepared caster lower-rank extra slots that automatically have the chosen spells prepared in them. Though, that does seem a bit strong for a dedication if its level 2.

The later feats could give you focus spells from existing sources (trickery domain, fey bloodline) and potentially completely new ones. Some spellshapes would also be nice. (Conceal spell is a natural fit, but completely original spellshapes would of course be cool.) Add in some small non-spell magical abilities, and you've got a nice archetype.

I think I can adapt my Practitioner idea (comment #11) to fit that. I will call this version a Feyfriend.

Feyfriend Spellcasting
Your fey acquaintances gift you the power to cast primal spells. You are a spellcaster and can cast spells of the primal tradition using the Cast a Spell activity. As a feyfriend, your spellcasting incantations might direct gifts from the fey, a manifestation of your inner fey nature, or an arrangement of fey energies from your rituals.

At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-rank spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the primal spell list, or from other primal spells to which you gain access and learn via Learn a Spell, or granted to your from your fey acquaintances. The maximum number of spells you can prepare is called your spell slots. Prepared spells remain available to you until you cast them or until you prepare spells in those spell slots again.

As you increase in level as a feyfriend, the number of spells you can prepare each day increases, as does the highest rank of spell you can cast, as shown in the Feyfriend Spells per Day table. (a new spell rank of 2 spell slots at each odd level, 3 spells slots for spell slots gained at lower levels, and 5 cantrips.)

Some of your spells require you to attempt a spell attack to see how effective they are, or have your enemies roll against your spell DC (typically by attempting a saving throw). Since your key attribute is Wisdom, your spell attack modifier and spell DC use your Wisdom modifier.

Heightening Spells
When you get spell slots of 2nd rank and higher, you can fill those slots with stronger versions of lower-rank spells. This increases the spell's rank, heightening it to match the spell slot. Many spells have specific improvements when they are heightened to certain ranks.

Cantrips
Some of your spells are cantrips. A cantrip is a special type of spell that doesn't use spell slots. You can cast a cantrip at will, any number of times per day. A cantrip is always automatically heightened to half your level rounded up— this is usually equal to the highest rank of druid spell slot you have. For example, a 1st-level feyfriend's cantrips are 1st-rank spells, and a 5th-level feyfriend's are 3rd rank.

Fey Acquaintances
You have made friends among the fey who aid you from a distance. At 1st level you select a fey from the 1st-level fey acquaintance list (Mitflit, Naiad, Grig, or Tooth Fairy). That acquaintance grants spells from other traditions to your primal list, so that you can prepare them. In addition, you gain the Fey Offering activity. Each acquaintance lists what you may give in a fey offering to them.

At 3rd level and every odd level after that, you gain another fey acquaintance of an acquaintance level at or below your level. Note that the acquaintance level doe not necessarily match the level of the fey creature itself. You may swap out a fey acquaintance for another in one week via the Retraining rules (Player Core pg. 440).

Fey Offering
Concentrate Exploration
Requirements You have a fey acquaintance.
You spend 10 minutes dedicating an offering a fey. You give the offering requested by one of your fey acquaintances. If you offered items, then the items are transported to the fey acquaintance. You cannot offer items that are fixed in place, such as a door, or cursed items. In exchange, you may prepare one spell of the rank given by the fey acquaintance's offering and one spell of each rank below that. If your spells of a rank then exceed your spell slots for that rank, you lose prepared spells of your choice to match your prepared spells to your spell slots.

You may offer to your highest-level fey acquaintance only once per day. You have no limit on offerings to lower-level fey acquaintances.

If you do not have the appropriate offering, you may substitute a work of art that you spent 1 hour personally making, such as gathering an elegant bouquet of wildflowers with a Survival check or a telling a story aloud with Performance check (one hour of storytelling followed by the 10 minute Fey Offering). The DC of this check is the level-based DC (GM Core, page 52) of the acquaintance level.

Fey Focus Spells
Some fey acquaintances grant focus spells. Focus spells don't require spell slots, and you can't cast them using spell slots. Instead, you spend 1 Focus Point to cast a focus spell. When you gain your 1st focus spell, you gain a focus pool that can contain 1 Focus Point. The maximum Focus Points your focus pool can hold is equal to the number of focus spells you have, but can never be more than 3 points. You refill your focus pool during your daily preparations, and you can regain 1 Focus Point by spending 10 minutes making a Fey Offering.

Focus spells are automatically heightened to half your level rounded up, much like cantrips.

Fey Acquaintance List
1st Acquaintance Level
Mitflit grants bane and enfeeble, offer a live insect or spider (Survival DC 15 to find one) to prepare a 1st-rank spell.
Naiad grants tidal surge focus spell, offer fresh water (at most one day old) from a pond, spring, or stream to prepare a 1st-rank spell.
Grig grants illusory disguise and figment, offer a song played on a string instrument with trained Performance to prepare a 1st-rank spell.
Tooth Fairy grants sleep and telekinetic hand, offer a tooth to prepare a 1st-rank spell.

3rd Acquaintance Level
Dryad grants allfood and avenging wildwood (oaks only), offer by planting an acorn in good soil and sunlight.
Leprechaun grants sudden shift focus spell and invisibility, offer 1 gold piece to prepare a 2nd-rank spell and a 1st-rank spell.
Pixie grants confusion and laughing fit, offer is 30 arrows to prepare a 2nd-rank spell and a 1st-rank spell.
Redcap grants serrate focus spell and blood vendetta, offer a dead enemy's fresh blood to prepare a 2nd-rank spell and a 1st-rank spell.

5th Acquaintance Level
...

The Feyfriend class meshes well with existing Golarion lore.

[NotADragon]

There is a not a spellcaster that can create custom magical effects as needed by combining components (i.e. design spells during combat). Pathfinder 1 had a "wordcaster" system in Ultimate Magic that did this, and obviously other games have had similar systems. My first exposure to something similar was Ars Magica.

[QuidEst]

NotADragon wrote:

There is a not a spellcaster that can create custom magical effects as needed by combining components (i.e. design spells during combat). Pathfinder 1 had a "wordcaster" system in Ultimate Magic that did this, and obviously other games have had similar systems. My first exposure to something similar was Ars Magica.

I think you might have better luck with that if you don't remind Paizo about Words of Power. I don't think their takeaway was that it was a thing that people got a lot of use out of, or that could be continually expanded on later like regular spells.

It might work scaled down to a spellcasting class's class-specific cantrip or focus spell, though?

[Perpdepog]

QuidEst wrote:

NotADragon wrote:

There is a not a spellcaster that can create custom magical effects as needed by combining components (i.e. design spells during combat). Pathfinder 1 had a "wordcaster" system in Ultimate Magic that did this, and obviously other games have had similar systems. My first exposure to something similar was Ars Magica.

I think you might have better luck with that if you don't remind Paizo about Words of Power. I don't think their takeaway was that it was a thing that people got a lot of use out of, or that could be continually expanded on later like regular spells.

Which is a real shame, because I feel that Words of Power would play much more nicely with PF2's three action system.

Though the runes the Runesmith uses do feel very similar.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

I would love to see more 'martial casters' in the same vein as Magus, supported with similarly fleshed out mechanics. We have the battle harbinger (it's a shame they hadn't saved the name 'warpriest' for that one) for Divine, but what I'd really like to see is a warrior-poet type Bard that does the same for Occult - albeit with somewhat more effective and engaging mechanics than the harbinger has become known for.

Basically, give me master weapons, 2 slots down the board (as seems to be the new standard for formerly-bounded casters), and a new, unique mechanic that blends spells and blades in some way. It doesn't have to be a copy of spellstrike--I'd actually prefer it weren't or else you may as well just play a tradition-swapped Magus--but something thematic that feels like a more hands-on version of that class.

(As for Shifter, I feel like we still have room for an interesting take on that class that's not just the Animal Instinct or Druid-MC Fighter, although I feel like I couldn't care less whether it had spell slots or not, so it may not count as a spellcasting option)

[Teridax]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

I would love to see more 'martial casters' in the same vein as Magus, supported with similarly fleshed out mechanics. We have the battle harbinger (it's a shame they hadn't saved the name 'warpriest' for that one) for Divine, but what I'd really like to see is a warrior-poet type Bard that does the same for Occult - albeit with somewhat more effective and engaging mechanics than the harbinger has become known for.

Basically, give me master weapons, 2 slots down the board (as seems to be the new standard for formerly-bounded casters), and a new, unique mechanic that blends spells and blades in some way. It doesn't have to be a copy of spellstrike--I'd actually prefer it weren't or else you may as well just play a tradition-swapped Magus--but something thematic that feels like a more hands-on version of that class.

(As for Shifter, I feel like we still have room for an interesting take on that class that's not just the Animal Instinct or Druid-MC Fighter, although I feel like I couldn't care less whether it had spell slots or not, so it may not count as a spellcasting option)

This is perhaps something for a homebrew thread, but with the remaster to the Magus and Summoner, the gish chassis is pretty well-standardized:

* 2 spell slots per rank, no 10th-rank slot.

* Expert to master in two saves.

* Expert Strikes at level 5, master at 13.

* Expert spellcasting at level 9, master at 17.

* Expert AC at level 11, master at 17/19.

* Strong class feature at level 1, powerful supporting features at levels 7 and 19.

Really, the trick is getting that 1st-level feature to enable spellcasting and martial combat in tandem, and that chassis could accommodate pretty much anyone.

[YuriP]

rainzax wrote:

Flexible Spellcaster that doesn't Archetype lock.

=)

I’d go down that path as well.

Impossible Magic remastered a good deal of the Secrets of Magic (SoM) content, but it didn't address support for alternative, non-class-specific spellcasting techniques.

I’d like to see mechanics in a new book that offer flexibility and alternatives to traditional spellcasting—whether through standard archetypes, broad class archetypes, subclasses, or even official variant rules. Seeing the positive reception of third-party materials like Magic+ showed me there is indeed a strong demand for this: different ways to cast spells without necessarily creating a unique new class—like the Alchemist, Kineticist, or Runesmith—just to achieve that. Some might argue that Magic+ already covers this, or that the Flexible Spellcaster and Wellspring Mage archetypes from SoM remain valid; however, in my opinion, they are outdated for the Remaster (for instance, under Remaster rules, the Flexible Spellcaster archetype conflicts with other archetypes RAW, which wasn't an issue in the Legacy rules where the dedication restriction was in the special entry in its status block).

So, I’d like to see official alternative spellcasting systems that revisit the old ones—being bolder and implementing interesting alternatives familiar to players coming from other systems, such as MP (Mana Points) or a rechargeable magic system (like the essence-based casting in Magic+), but made official, well-designed, and balanced. To me, that is more compelling right now than simply cramming more magic-using classes into the game.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

What would I like to see for casters?

1. A wizard that is built better for PF2 with spontaneous casting and better focus spells.

2. A summoner that works like the new necromancer using different types of summoned creatures. That necromancer feels more like a summoner than the summoner which feels like the eidolon combat class. I wish the necromancer was designed before the summoner so they could have used that as inspiration for a summoner class.

3. Eidolons with more customization options and abilities closer to what they are based on like the old Unchained Summoner.

4. Improved summons at higher level. Five levels behind is too far behind to be useful.

5. More feats for some of the classes with few or bad feats like the wizard, animist, psychic, summoner, and oracle.

Exactly. My general feeling is that today—rather than just adding more spellcasting classes (even though there is now room for summoning-focused classes like elemental summoners, divine/natural allies, constructs, etc., given Paizo's thematic approach with the necromancer)—it is more useful to refine what we already have than to keep trying to create entirely new, standalone magical classes, considering the sheer number of options that already exist.

[Angwa]

I am now mostly interested in casters which minimize slot-based casting, or modify it in an interesting and worthwhile way.

There are only so many combinations of primary ability, spontaneous/prepared, 3 or 4 slots and tradition you can make. The higher rank spells start dominating over whatever class features you have and you will have enough slots.

There is also too little in-class incentives for the full casters to cast particular kind of spells. This means there is broadly speaking a very short list of spells worth casting which is shared by all full casters. The end result is that higher level casters all start to feel less distinct instead of more distinct despite their 10+ levels of class features and feats.

[NotADragon]

QuidEst wrote:

I think you might have better luck with that if you don't remind Paizo about Words of Power. I don't think their takeaway was that it was a thing that people got a lot of use out of, or that could be continually expanded on later like regular spells.

It might work scaled down to a spellcasting class's class-specific cantrip or focus spell, though?

I think something like that can work OK in 2E if it's built into a class to start with, and not an extra magic system glued on later.

[3 Crows Witch]

Is there any new information that we will receive the Devil option for the Summoner?

I was hoping it was going to be in the recent book with the Hellknight update but it wasn't.

Will it be in Lost Omens Cheliax, Infernal Inheritance?

[kaid]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

What would I like to see for casters?

1. A wizard that is built better for PF2 with spontaneous casting and better focus spells.

2. A summoner that works like the new necromancer using different types of summoned creatures. That necromancer feels more like a summoner than the summoner which feels like the eidolon combat class. I wish the necromancer was designed before the summoner so they could have used that as inspiration for a summoner class.

3. Eidolons with more customization options and abilities closer to what they are based on like the old Unchained Summoner.

4. Improved summons at higher level. Five levels behind is too far behind to be useful.

5. More feats for some of the classes with few or bad feats like the wizard, animist, psychic, summoner, and oracle.

It always seemed weird to me that wizards of all casters seem to have kinda meh focus spells. As sort of the master of arcane magic one would think they should have pretty top tier focus spell options.

[AestheticDialectic]

Angwa wrote:

I am now mostly interested in casters which minimize slot-based casting, or modify it in an interesting and worthwhile way.

There are only so many combinations of primary ability, spontaneous/prepared, 3 or 4 slots and tradition you can make. The higher rank spells start dominating over whatever class features you have and you will have enough slots.

There is also too little in-class incentives for the full casters to cast particular kind of spells. This means there is broadly speaking a very short list of spells worth casting which is shared by all full casters. The end result is that higher level casters all start to feel less distinct instead of more distinct despite their 10+ levels of class features and feats.

This sort of gets close to what I think I see among people who play games with magical characters in general is that what people are seeking are classes that are magical and have bespoke supernatural abilities (as in the way 3.x used it but also in the general sense) that adhere to a theme and give this hypothetical caster class it's identity. Necromancer is hype because it has bespoke supernatural abilities that support the theme and give it a unique mechanical identity. I would also argue the kineticist is the full realization of this. This is also why the wizard to people feels flavorless because it's magical abilities are from a universal spell list not unique to itself and as a class focuses primarily, and almost exclusively on slotted spells (which it should be). Focus spells are so liked partly because they're very easy to justify using without as much cost benefit analysis, just as spontaneous casting is, but also are specific to a class giving it more identity that is more unique. If casting spells was something more limited to a smaller number of classes, and bespoke supernatural abilities like the kineticist's were the bread and butter of classes such as the sorcerer and cleric which would benefit from tighter theming of what it can do based on the bloodline, or divine power it worships, I think this would go a long way in giving classes focused on *spells* and a spell list more of an identity.

This is a new edition concern, but something I think we can and should do on this edition is help a class like the wizard double down on spells being it's focus. Which does make it somewhat of a shame the sorcerer is the premier 4-slot caster when it is counter to it's bloodline thematics. The class is supposed to be tightly and narrowly focused on a theme and the idea is you can only pick a small range of spells to double down on the theme. The problem is it can end up as open ended as a wizard. The only issue I have with my own argument is that sorcerers to an extent embody magic, and arguably being able to innately cast spells, rather than have a narrow set of super natural abilities, sells that fantasy, but a trade off needs to happen somewhere to help differentiate wizards from other casters. This is why I suggested they can customize spell effects in some way better than other classes. Such as two spellshapes like the technomancer play test, especially because it seems the full release technomancer is moving away from this as their core gimmick, sadly

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Two different flavors of shapeshifter:
Flavor 1) Martial. Doesn't cast spells, but changes into various forms for the different combat options they give.
Flavor 2) Caster. Doesn't change into a form with direct combat capability, but instead changes into things like an "artillery form" for blasting/crowd control, or a "mobile form" for scouting. Every single spell they cast changes their form temporarily, even if only cosmetically.

[Perpdepog]

3 Crows Witch wrote:

Is there any new information that we will receive the Devil option for the Summoner?

I was hoping it was going to be in the recent book with the Hellknight update but it wasn't.

Will it be in Lost Omens Cheliax, Infernal Inheritance?

I haven't heard anything on that front either way, sadly. Though, if you and your group don't mind 3P, Summoners+ has a section that adjusts existing eidolons, and one option alters the demon eidolon into a devil.

[3 Crows Witch]

Perpdepog wrote:

3 Crows Witch wrote:

Is there any new information that we will receive the Devil option for the Summoner?

I was hoping it was going to be in the recent book with the Hellknight update but it wasn't.

Will it be in Lost Omens Cheliax, Infernal Inheritance?

I haven't heard anything on that front either way, sadly. Though, if you and your group don't mind 3P, Summoners+ has a section that adjusts existing eidolons, and one option alters the demon eidolon into a devil.

My group doesnt use 3p books. I've been using the demon eidolon but had hoped that they were going to add the Devil with all the Cheliax updates this year.

Thank you!

[exequiel759]

YuriP wrote:

So, I’d like to see official alternative spellcasting systems that revisit the old ones—being bolder and implementing interesting alternatives familiar to players coming from other systems, such as MP (Mana Points) or a rechargeable magic system (like the essence-based casting in Magic+), but made official, well-designed, and balanced. To me, that is more compelling right now than simply cramming more magic-using classes into the game.

I genuinely think essence casting is a huge step up from vancian casting and I'd recommend it to everyone that doesn't like vancian to try it out. However, I'd also like an official iteration on that idea since I think essence casting is needlesly complicated in some areas and could be simplified.

[Dragonchess Player]

kaid wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

What would I like to see for casters?

1. A wizard that is built better for PF2 with spontaneous casting and better focus spells.

2. A summoner that works like the new necromancer using different types of summoned creatures. That necromancer feels more like a summoner than the summoner which feels like the eidolon combat class. I wish the necromancer was designed before the summoner so they could have used that as inspiration for a summoner class.

3. Eidolons with more customization options and abilities closer to what they are based on like the old Unchained Summoner.

4. Improved summons at higher level. Five levels behind is too far behind to be useful.

5. More feats for some of the classes with few or bad feats like the wizard, animist, psychic, summoner, and oracle.

It always seemed weird to me that wizards of all casters seem to have kinda meh focus spells. As sort of the master of arcane magic one would think they should have pretty top tier focus spell options.

Sadly, this was a pendulum swing from the D&D 3.x/PF1e to PF2e transition that became worse with the remaster.

Pre-remaster PF2e wizards were designed so most of their "power budget" was supposed to come from 1) having 4 (including the arcane school slot) spells per rank and 2) being able to fill the school slot at each rank from a wide set of options (based on the OGL schools). The issue is that most other caster classes received upgrades with their remaster versions, while the "arcane school" became restricted to a couple curriculum spells at each rank without anything to compensate.

Wizards are still "okay" in PF2e (even post-remaster; some of the arcane schools after the Players Core are decent), but they definitely aren't the top-tier casters they were in D&D 3.x/PF1e.

[Deriven Firelion]

kaid wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

What would I like to see for casters?

1. A wizard that is built better for PF2 with spontaneous casting and better focus spells.

2. A summoner that works like the new necromancer using different types of summoned creatures. That necromancer feels more like a summoner than the summoner which feels like the eidolon combat class. I wish the necromancer was designed before the summoner so they could have used that as inspiration for a summoner class.

3. Eidolons with more customization options and abilities closer to what they are based on like the old Unchained Summoner.

4. Improved summons at higher level. Five levels behind is too far behind to be useful.

5. More feats for some of the classes with few or bad feats like the wizard, animist, psychic, summoner, and oracle.

It always seemed weird to me that wizards of all casters seem to have kinda meh focus spells. As sort of the master of arcane magic one would think they should have pretty top tier focus spell options.

I was hoping they would give them spell manipulation focus spells according to their curriculum. That would be cool.

A battle wizard would have an empower spell focus spell.

Maybe a port curriculum would have some focus spell that let them do something crazy like cast a teleport spell faster or as a reaction.

Focus spells that allow them to manipulate magic in ways other classes can't. That would be cool.

[Deriven Firelion]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

kaid wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

What would I like to see for casters?

1. A wizard that is built better for PF2 with spontaneous casting and better focus spells.

2. A summoner that works like the new necromancer using different types of summoned creatures. That necromancer feels more like a summoner than the summoner which feels like the eidolon combat class. I wish the necromancer was designed before the summoner so they could have used that as inspiration for a summoner class.

3. Eidolons with more customization options and abilities closer to what they are based on like the old Unchained Summoner.

4. Improved summons at higher level. Five levels behind is too far behind to be useful.

5. More feats for some of the classes with few or bad feats like the wizard, animist, psychic, summoner, and oracle.

It always seemed weird to me that wizards of all casters seem to have kinda meh focus spells. As sort of the master of arcane magic one would think they should have pretty top tier focus spell options.

Sadly, this was a pendulum swing from the D&D 3.x/PF1e to PF2e transition that became worse with the remaster.

Pre-remaster PF2e wizards were designed so most of their "power budget" was supposed to come from 1) having 4 (including the arcane school slot) spells per rank and 2) being able to fill the school slot at each rank from a wide set of options (based on the OGL schools). The issue is that most other caster classes received upgrades with their remaster versions, while the "arcane school" became restricted to a couple curriculum spells at each rank without anything to compensate.

Wizards are still "okay" in PF2e (even post-remaster; some of the arcane schools after the Players Core are decent), but they definitely aren't the top-tier casters they were in D&D 3.x/PF1e.

All the things that made prepared casting strong in PF1/3E were taken out while spontaneous casting was made better. Thus the sorc is now king caster in PF2.

As a player that has been playing wizard/magic user whatever you call it since basic, I'm disappointed. To me the wizard should always be King Caster, just not by as much as they were in PF1/3E.

There are so many iconic wizards in fantasy history and even in D&D worlds like Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Forgotten Realms it feels wrong to have the wizard as a "meh" caster somewhere in the middle. I can't have that. That's why I changed them to make them better for PF2.

Main thing in the future is they need standout focus spells. Everyone can access spells. Wizards need focus spells to do things other casters cannot do.

I hope Paizo makes the wizard King Caster again in PF3 and beyond. I can't have wizards being weak again. It feels super wrong.

[Teridax]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I hope Paizo makes the wizard King Caster again in PF3 and beyond. I can't have wizards being weak again. It feels super wrong.

While I certainly agree that the Wizard could do with some significant improvements, I feel what you mention is part of the problem, not the solution. Putting aside how boring I find it when every major event in a fantasy story ultimately boils down to "a wizard did it," which is all too common in D&D, I also don't think "the best caster" is really an identity. It only works in D&D because Wizards are more powerful than most other casters, and when you actually balance the class so that they're on more equal footing with others, you get the premaster PF2e Wizard, whose identity is defined purely by casting arcane spells from prepared spell slots. The remaster added to the issue by nerfing the class, but I do think the central problem with the Wizard as they exist in PF2e is that they are the end result of implementing a class that's all about spellcasting while still being in the same overall league of power as other spellcasters.

Personally, though, I don't think that needs the case, because I do think there are other aspects to the Wizard that are well worth exploring:

The Wizard is by nature one of the most studious classes in the game, and that should reflect itself in feat options that make them good at Recalling Knowledge.

You mention this with focus spells, but in general I think the Wizard ought to be the class who gets to "cheat" with magic, and bend the rules to do stuff with it that others cannot. Their arcane thesis is meant to be this, and if they weren't a 4-slot caster by default they could likely afford to make it a lot stronger.

I feel the Wizard, more than other casters, ought to have options that combo especially well with spells, the underlying idea being that they're a clever class that can use their spells more creatively than anyone else.

So rather than being "the king caster" just in the sense of being overwhelmingly powerful, the Wizard I think ought to be defined by their cleverness and ability to use their spells more creatively than other casters. Speaking of caster options, a lot of this I think could be implemented in the form of feats, which they still sorely need. Thankfully Impossible Magic has given them a few juicy options, but there's room for more.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

I hope there is never a "King Caster" again.