If Ninja was going to be a full PF2 class, what would be its core, unique mechanic?

[PossibleCabbage]

I mean, we're not getting a ninja class anyway. We're getting a Guardian class, we're getting a Commander class, we're getting a Necromancer class, and we're getting a Runesmith class, and there's probably classes after that (not to mention all of the SF2 classes that you could import.)

The one thing we're not getting is a class with any kind of cultural specificity. But it would be interesting to figure out what particular kind of character someone can't play with existing options now that they would like to. Since a lot of what I'm reading is like "we have to stretch the boundaries of the class power budget to accommodate my vision" which is just never going to happen.

[Ryangwy]

moosher12 wrote:

I wonder how much extra martial capability you could balance in if you used a 2 spell slot per rank arrangement like the psychic (though with normal cantrips). The warpriest is a 3 spell slot per rank allotment, after all. Another potential balance point is making them a glass cannon, and using a 6 HP scale instead of an 8 HP scale. Making them squishy as such could also incentivize adjusting their kit to encourage playing to enemy weaknesses, staying stealthy, and using their ninjutsu to get close and get away.

Cutting to 2 spells per level is probably a good idea, but it also leaves the ninja behind the regular magus in spell slots until 5th level which is awkward. Not sure what to do about that. Cutting HP is definitely another lever that can be pulled, and is smoother.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

The one thing we're not getting is a class with any kind of cultural specificity. But it would be interesting to figure out what particular kind of character someone can't play with existing options now that they would like to. Since a lot of what I'm reading is like "we have to stretch the boundaries of the class power budget to accommodate my vision" which is just never going to happen.

A full spellcaster which ends up at master/master with a subset of weapons is definitely possible, since the warpriest is exactly that. Font is a lot of potentially distributable power. Whether copying the magus chassis is a good idea is a different matter altogether, but I think the base idea is doable. A class archetype can be a lot more location specific than a class, hence my proposal, but I'll be even happier if they release a, say, Eldritch Knight class with ninja as a subclass.

[moosher12]

Ryangwy wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

I wonder how much extra martial capability you could balance in if you used a 2 spell slot per rank arrangement like the psychic (though with normal cantrips). The warpriest is a 3 spell slot per rank allotment, after all. Another potential balance point is making them a glass cannon, and using a 6 HP scale instead of an 8 HP scale. Making them squishy as such could also incentivize adjusting their kit to encourage playing to enemy weaknesses, staying stealthy, and using their ninjutsu to get close and get away.

Cutting to 2 spells per level is probably a good idea, but it also leaves the ninja behind the regular magus in spell slots until 5th level which is awkward. Not sure what to do about that. Cutting HP is definitely another lever that can be pulled, and is smoother.

Actually 2 spell slots per rank would be equivalent to a Magus from levels 1-4, and would exceed a magus from level 5 onward.

Both a magus and the psychic have 1 spell slot at level 1, 2 spell slots at level 2, 3 at level 3, and 4 at level 4. The magus however stays at a static 4, while from level 5 on, the psychic starts to gain more spell slots. There is technically the studious spells bonus slots, but that won't be enough to pull a magus ahead.

[moosher12]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, we're not getting a ninja class anyway. We're getting a Guardian class, we're getting a Commander class, we're getting a Necromancer class, and we're getting a Runesmith class, and there's probably classes after that (not to mention all of the SF2 classes that you could import.)

Always room. Sure, the next two years are booked, but the years after that? In addition, one of the fun things about a class that enables ninja stuff is ninja appear in both olden times fantasy, as well as modern fantasy, and scifi so there is room for Starfinder to do it, too, once they catch up to their missing classes.\

It's important for us to voice what interests us so that it can be a consideration point when the time comes to select the next two classes for Pathfinder. I mean, if there are classes a larger proportion of community as a whole would rather have, of course, do them first. But there is always the year after.

And the way I see it. We have an arcane gish (Magus), and a divine gish (Battle Harbinger Cleric). There is still room for an Occult gish and a Primal gish. A class that can enable the faculties of a ninja, while being more culturally agnostic, can certainly fill the role of the Occult gish. (And not to get too off-topic, but the return of the old shifter can probably tie into the Primal gish). The class itself does not need to be a ninja. But what we want is a class that can easily be a ninja without hiccups. If Paizo could figure out how to give us a jedi in the form of a Solarion, they can probably figure out something that is not specifically a ninja, but can very much be a ninja. If the hangup is that it cannot be too reliant on a culture, then I think the talented writers at Paizo have more than enough capability to make a creative solution that both does the job, and stands on its own.

As an example, let's look to the Starfinder team, they just did an AMA while playing Warframe, the game about biomechanical space ninja surrogates. Warframes do not call themselves ninja, they call themselves Warframes (well, they call themselves other things sometimes, but spoilers), but they move, sneak, ambush, and do a lot of ninja stuff on top of their own brand of cool seemingly magical powers. They also use guns, gun ninja is actually a pretty popular scifi ninja trope, to show that a class that lets you be a ninja does not have to be only katanas and kunai. Paizo I trust is more than capable of making something that can be a ninja, and can be a ninja well, but is its own thing, that expands upon the capabilities of a ninja beyond its trappings of origin, as many other creators have done already.

[Ryangwy]

moosher12 wrote:

And the way I see it. We have an arcane gish (Magus), and a divine gish (Battle Harbinger Cleric). There is still room for an Occult gish and a Primal gish. A class that can enable the faculties of a ninja, while being more culturally agnostic, can certainly fill the role of the Occult gish.

Hilariously, Wooden Double is, in fact, a occult spell.

Personally, I think that arcane is still the better tradition, lorewise because they achieve it through intense study and practice, not through connecting with stories, and mechanically because Arcane has elemental and animal associations as well as illusions - the ninja (or similar) wants both. I don't think there's much of an overlap with the magus - the magus prioritises damaging spells, this hypothetical ninja/eldritch Knight would prefer non-damaging spells. Occult does give them heroism, which is good purely from a power perspective... not being able to summon a giant toad would be sad, though.

[moosher12]

Occultism is not just connection with stories. Occultism, at least as it was explained in Secrets of Magic in Legacy, is a force of willpower to impose your will upon the universe. It is using your mind and mental control to exert magic. That is why monks have the choice to be occult casters when they take a focus spell, and why psychics are occult, because occultism can take the form of that psionic force where you channel your mana/ki/chi/qi/aether/chakra/etc into a physical manifestation. My only experience with ninja is frankly Naruto, but their chakra manipulation system would not be so different from this aspect of occultism.

But you are right, that arcane has a lot of aspects we'd want. I was considering summon animal for tracking animals like dogs and the like, so that makes sense. And while I don't think it's necessary to make an otherwise very functional ninja, getting some elemental attack spells from the arcane school would also be nice, as that would definitely fulfill some more Naruto specific fantasies for me.

There are two ways we can do that, which have been explored by Paizo, actually. The first is the Magaambyan Attendant's Halcyon casting, and the second is the Red Mantis Assassin.

The Red Mantis Assassin's approach was to give us Divine Casting, and then bring in arcane spells of choice via a spell curriculum.

Meanwhile the Magaambyan Attendant's Halcyon casting is a full combination of arcane and primal magic. And it's Halcyon spell tradition can choose from both freely.

And as a third point, the sorcerer, cleric, and a few other casters have means of implanting spells from other traditions into their respective traditions in limited quantities.

So these can be inspiration points from which to drop in arcane spells into occultism, or vice versa. I'd personally lean occult because occult will give more of that ki/qi/chakra-use feeling that the monk already invokes, and it's spell list is better attuned to intrigue, giving the majority of the core aspects of being a ninja on its own, but from there, arcane spells that are missing can be added to the list as exceptions. Perhaps something akin to wizard spell curriculums to grant bonus spells to reflect different ninja themes? That's how the Red Mantis Assassin implaneted its arcane spells into the divine tradition in the first place. Perhaps there can be a curriculum for beastmastery, one for each element, etc. Or perhaps a full combination of the schools is possible, though I get the feeling that'd be a disproportionate proportion of the power budget.

Plus Burglar's Blind would be the perfect ninja spell, but it is occultism only.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Doesn't look like I'll be organising these thoughts any time soon, but in short I wanted to throw support behind the idea of the magic-focused ninja.

You may have seen me before, speaking out against the idea of a Ninja class. It is true I would rather not see a stunted class made to embody Ninja stereotypes. What I want is a class that can fulfill a broad spectrum of influences and opens an avenue for novel character concepts. Something that can do a Minkaian shinobi and a Lion Blade of Taldor with equal ease, rather than just something that specializes in 'exotic' weapons.

So, leaving aside whether or not an entire class named Ninja should be made, my take is that the Ninja should be a stealthy, magic-focused class that can fulfill the Final Fantasy XIV fantasy, or even make an honest attempt at Naruto ninjas.

I don't know if that should look like a semi-martial class with baked in focus spells or wave casting, or more like a warpriest/bard where weapons proficiencies are a back-up plan, but I feel that trying to squeeze a fully non-magic ninja into the chassis is just wasting space and time when the rogue is right there. Publish a smoke bomb feat for rogues and we'll see if there's really that much missing from the mundane ninja fantasy.

(For that matter, publish a magical vanishing trick for rogues... rogues deserve to get some semi-magic ninja play in-house, too)

Furthermore, given that the folkloric ninja popularized by kabuki theatre a few hundred years after they were most active* often possessed sorcerous powers such as control over the five elements, invisibility, and shapeshifting, I feel like it would be highly appropriate and very interesting to give them Arcane spellcasting. I know Occult has an overall 'spookier' feel, but if we had to choose between blessing, healing, and spirit blasts or elemental powers and shapeshifting, I feel like the latter is more accurate to the folklore.

... But then again, ninjas drawing on the narrative power instilled in rumours (intentionally spread) of their abilities to fuel their actual magic like a sneakier Bard would be incredibly funny and on-point, as well as fit Occult to a T.

*(in a parallel not unlike the prevalence of chivalric romance years which gives us most of our knight tropes, centuries after the last medieval knights existed)

PS. if we're speaking of Occult gishes with wave casting, I feel like we could have a lot of fun with a warrior-poet Bard class archetype. I would love to get my hands on a more story and performance oriented martial character to satisfy my itch for a bard that hits, too.

[Ryangwy]

moosher12 wrote:

Occultism is not just connection with stories. Occultism, at least as it was explained in Secrets of Magic in Legacy, is a force of willpower to impose your will upon the universe. It is using your mind and mental control to exert magic. That is why monks have the choice to be occult casters when they take a focus spell, and why psychics are occult, because occultism can take the form of that psionic force where you channel your mana/ki/chi/qi/aether/chakra/etc. My only experience with ninja is frankly Naruto, but their chakra manipulation system would not be so different from this aspect of occultism.

I'm going to be honest, I think Paizo misused occultism on the monk and definitely misused it for the Cultivator, the archetype about people trying to reach divine immortality by shedding the mundane is somehow occultism why. Yes, occult is the tradition of pure willpower, but qi has never been about pure willpower - it's a balance between mind, body and soul (more specifically, technique, body and heart), and Occult drops the body part off the cliff. It feels like exoticism, filing the weird stuff as occultism without thinking how concepts like meridians and qi flow are extremely scientific practices in the East.

At least as I've observed, ninjas lean even more into the magic as science (often because the real techniques they were based on were clever tricks like using thermals to fly on kites or hiding flint in the mouth to breathe fire).

[moosher12]

I cannot say I'm an expert in Buddhism, as I am not a Buddhist, but I have tried to do research into it in an attempt at making a wuxia themed character a few years back. What I say ahead will probably not be from a place of expertise, as it's referring to religious philosophy, and even in my attempts, the sources I found are often contradicting, as Buddhism is divided into so many split-offs such as chan buddhism, shinto buddhism, and so so many more.

There is a philosophy in place where while yes, mind, body, and soul are the three aspects, but the body is sharpened to keep the mind healthy, and the body needs to keep up with the mind's command.

Then there is the aspect of the soul. If I may get secular, there then lies the question of whether the soul is seperate from the mind, is a medium for the mind, is the home of the mind, or is the mind.

All I can say, is that some media does what it does. And for the sake of my point above, I'll treat mind and soul as a unit, and body as another:

Early Sakura has a weak body, but a powerful mind. Whatever the nature of her chakra, she can manipulate it through the fact her mind and soul are flexible and precise.

As for Naruto, no matter how many exercises he does, he will still struggle to walk on water when his spirit is out of wack. He has a strong body, and a rich source of spirit to work with, though his mind is often not the most precise. Naruto's usual arcs of growth are developing his faculties until he can use the next major thing. But most of these things are exercises in mental control over a difficult process. How does one will their soul into a vortex? What part of body condition controls the precise flow and and shaping of chakra? Wouldn't that be an aspect of mental exercise?

In the end, most of the epiphanies that lead to a jutsu breakthrough in Naruto, tend to be a mental one. An example is the book, Name of the Wind. A somewhat occultist take on magic by paizo standards. Int hat book, magic users have to do very difficult mental exercises to condition their mind for magic. One mental exercise used, for example, was splitting your mind into two people, having one partition hide an object in an imaginary room, while the other partition tried to search for it, while willing both halves of yourself to not communicate with one another. That's always been the sort of thing I imagined happening with Naruto. Mental exercises that mold willpower into manifestation. And that's what the description of Occultism jived with the most when I read its letter in Secrets of Magic.

To me, occultism is not otherness, it is not stories. To me, occultism is psionics. It is will manfiest, it is self molding of your own life force. To me A bard creates magic not by reciting a story, or singing a song, but by using the performance as a mnemonic to attune and exert their will. A psychic and a monk just use different kinds of mnemonics. The difference is in the ways that they focus their minds.

[Ryangwy]

Arcane also is a tradition of the mind, though. Realistically everything has a little bit this and a little bit that, but occultism isn't just of the mind and spirit, it primarily affects those as well. Not just input, but also output. Occultism is the tradition of aberration, of mental and spiritual attacks, of the void of space. And yes, 4e tried to make monks a psionic class too, it... really doesn't work, they're the only psionic class not to use the iconic psionic mechanic.

Note that it doesn't fall the same way - in my opinion, monks are divine and ninjas are arcane and just because both consider qi to be their source of power it doesn't mean qi is Arcane or divine (trying to make it both is what ends up with occult as a compromise, is my sense). Qi is just internal energy, it is no more aspects than the blood magic of a sorcerer. One can refine it yo reach a state of purity, in which case it is divine, while another can use it to manipulate physics and chemistry, in which case it is arcane.

[Bluemagetim]

What if the class was warpriest progression vlike you suggested Ryangwy but the class gimick was improved to hit and DCs while concealed adding improved precision damage while hidden.
Concealed is easy to gain and doesn't go away after attacking so the bonus shouldn't be much. But hidden is easier to lose until higher levels so the bonuses can be a bit better.
maybe only a 1 shift for hit and dc while concealed but while hidden it increases to 2 and melee attacks while hidden gains scaling precision damage.
Ranged and spells wouldnt add precision damage while hidden. they should get something different than just damage.
Maybe an action compression to sneak before or after using certain spells like illusions.

[PossibleCabbage]

It's worth noting that the Warpriest is balanced in part by only ever achieving master weapon proficiency with their deity's favored weapon, and only then at 19th level six levels behind when a normal Martial gets that upgrade (you also get expert weapons two levels later). There are some good weapons that are favored weapons, but it's not like you can go shopping for the exact weapon you want since there are a lot of good weapons that aren't the favored weapon of any deity.

I'm just not sure that people who want to play a ninja want to be appreciably worse at using weapons than the ranger, rogue, monk, inventor, investigator, barbarian, thaumaturge, magus, etc. Like I don't think that would satisfy a lot of people's desire to play "a ninja."

The other downside to "use the warpriest template" is that any time you give someone full strength casting you're going to make their KAS their casting stat, thus like the Inventor, Thaumaturge, etc. you're going to be -1 to hit behind a normal martial for fully half of your levels. Basically, "swinging your weapon" isn't that much fun for a warpriest in my experience. It's a fine third action, but you know this isn't your wheelhouse.

[Bluemagetim]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

It's worth noting that the Warpriest is balanced in part by only ever achieving master weapon proficiency with their deity's favored weapon, and only then at 19th level six levels behind when a normal Martial gets that upgrade (you also get expert weapons two levels later). There are some good weapons that are favored weapons, but it's not like you can go shopping for the exact weapon you want since there are a lot of good weapons that aren't the favored weapon of any deity.

I'm just not sure that people who want to play a ninja want to be appreciably worse at using weapons than the ranger, rogue, monk, inventor, investigator, barbarian, thaumaturge, magus, etc. Like I don't think that would satisfy a lot of people's desire to play "a ninja."

The other downside to "use the warpriest template" is that any time you give someone full strength casting you're going to make their KAS their casting stat, thus like the Inventor, Thaumaturge, etc. you're going to be -1 to hit behind a normal martial for fully half of your levels. Basically, "swinging your weapon" isn't that much fun for a warpriest in my experience. It's a fine third action, but you know this isn't your wheelhouse.

How would the idea of the +1 hit and DCs while concealed going to +2 while hidden change that?

(edit: i can see there would be an odd high power range of levels with dips when warpriest proficiency lags)
What might be an appropriate counter balance to give up given a warpriest chassis?

[PossibleCabbage]

PF2 does not want to give +1s here or there that aren't from proficiency or item bonuses. No class has "extra chance to hit" like that. If you want a +2 to hit, you get the opponent off-guard like anybody else.

[moosher12]

You raise a valid point PossibleCabbage, perhaps a bounded caster would be acceptable then? A counterpart to the magus that trades off offensive potential and tankiness for stealth and intrigue potential might be another approach then. At the very least that can probably grant us mastery in spellcraft and weapon use to where both are equally viable, if not as good as a focused attention martial or caster. A pivot point can also be granting it the occult tradition instead of the arcane tradition to give it more identity, and then implanting the remaining spells as needed as Paizo says they plan to do for the Necromancer's final version. Reduce HP from 8 to 6. Light Armor training only. Instead of Arcane Cascade it could have a focused attention ability, perhaps setting up a one-sided duel with a single enemy to the detriment of lack of focus against secondary enemies, but you'd gain bonuses against the focused enemy. Just spitballing. Class features could be about satisfying a few gimmicks, poison use, packaging a few key traversal skill feats into one class feat, like the Barbarian does with intimidation feats, Feats that add remaining spells to the occult spell list to help specialize, feats that give bonuses to thrown weapons, quick draw, etc.

Basically, this class would be to the Magus as the rogue is to the fighter.

[PossibleCabbage]

I definitely do want an Occult wave caster like the Magus, and would be interested in exploring what its basic mechanic is that's not "spellstrike." That feels like a reasonable way to make a "ninja" character to go along with all the other current ways to build that kind of character.

[moosher12]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

PF2 does not want to give +1s here or there that aren't from proficiency or item bonuses. No class has "extra chance to hit" like that. If you want a +2 to hit, you get the opponent off-guard like anybody else.

Erm Ackchually

The Investigator's Known Weaknesses feat and the Ranger's Monster Hunter feat do sort of grant that. And while the skills being different per monster is a balance point, taking the Loremaster archetype can congregate it all into one role. It is still exceedingly rare to get, you are right, and it still has to be built into, plus it requires critically succeeded checks, but it's not none, especially as critical successes have a decent chance of happening in 2E in particular.

Though on the note, identifying a weakness akin to these feats might be thematic on a ninja. It's still infrequent of course.

[Ascalaphus]

I think there's three broad ways to design a ninja, one of which I think is a poor choice compared to the others.

Option 1: class archetype
I don't like this option very much, because there's a lot of classes that could be ninja foundation, and only one would get served. A class archetype also gets in the way of taking other archetypes.

Option 2: archetype
This means your fighter can be ninja, or your rogue, ranger, swashbuckler or magus. It's a good solution for players who feel existing classes already can do a lot of the job of a ninja, but perhaps miss a few abilities here and there. It could be a "cultural" archetype like Red Mantis or Lion Blade. It's also a bit like the old Dragon Disciple archetype, which also shows the downsides; not all of the archetype feats are going to make a lot of sense for all of the classes that want something else from the archetype. It would be easy to make "magic ninja" optional though. It could be as simple as giving them the option to take typical archetype spellcasting.

Option 3: full class
Advantage is that you can have multiple ninjas that are different from each other by picking different class feats and customizing with archetypes like Lion Blade or Red Mantis.

Difficulty is that you need to find a class gimmick that's distinct enough, you can't just give them sneak attack. You're competing with an already busy field.

I think there's some design space though: an occult gish with emphasis on stealth, scouting and infiltration. Both historically and in fiction, being able to infiltrate well-guarded places is a hallmark ability of ninjas. It's also something that other classes still struggle with, because the enemies you'd care most about scouting, tend to have special senses and just sky high Perception.

The occult spell list gives you a lot of mobility, illusions and invisibility. It helps set you apart from rogues and rangers when it comes to being a stealthy martial. And being a martial sets you apart from other occult casters.

You'd need a stealth/combat gimmick. Rogues get sneak attack whenever the enemy is flat-footed; for a ninja it would have to be something different. Maybe less damaging (dial it down a notch from rogue to the level of the swashbuckler?) but more focused on your ability to use stealth even in circumstances where it gets hard for other classes.

[Ryangwy]

I remain impressed by how many people want Ninjas to be occult despite that not matching the ninja recorded in Japanese literature at all.

Can we just call it the assassin? The assassin also had a strong mystical component anyway, but in a more subtle way more suited to the occult list. I know that the 3.x ninjas (all of them) are PF2e occult but that's because they're terribly researched.

[moosher12]

I guess the main reason we still gravitate to occult is that no matter how we phrase it, the occult spell list simply is the one that gives us the largest array of the infiltration spells, and Paizo's take on Occultism is designed to allow for it, whether or not it is culturally accurate, it works within the scope of the Lost Omens campaign setting. A character in the Lost Omens setting is not beholden to following the exact rules of Earth lore, especially when Earth bends those rules so often across many permutations off of common origins. So we are trying to work within Paizo's definitions and standards to choose what gets us the most accurate mechanical function. And what matters is if it is consistent within the Lost Omens Setting's lore.

We unfortunately cannot call it an assassin, because we already have the assassin archetype within the Remaster space. Back when I was trying to pitch a non-magical base form, I was pitching calling the ninja the slayer, after the 1E class, but slayer might not invoke the mystical aspects, so another name would probably be needed that can invoke all of the implications of being a ninja, without simply being an assassin. Plus slayer has a largely negative connotation that might not sound as good for a good character, like how we renamed the inquisitor to the vindicator. Plus there is an untold trend that all classes go by a single-word name, so we want to find a single-word name that fits the bill.

Also you are incorrect about Ninjas in Pathfinder 1E/D&D 3.5E being occult. Occultism did not exist in Pathfinder 1E. They were ki users, but ki was not tied to occultism until 2E.

[moosher12]

Hm, perhaps an Infiltrator? That's not taken.

[Helmic]

Ravenhurst1161 wrote:

So I’ve been following this thread with great interest, and I want to weigh in not just from a theorycrafting standpoint, but from actual weekly gameplay experience.

I'm of two minds with this. On the one hand, I do think a lot of players would prefer to have an archetype to bolt onto another class, that addresses how expensive it is to get all those disparate elements. It's not that they don't exist in the game at all, but that they're gated behind additional dedications or are bundled with stuff you won't make use of when in theory you could get a lot more of this stuff as a package deal.

On the other, archetypes in general are pretty bad at letting a character concept come online by the time most groups finish a campaign, like maybe level 12 tops. Early levels often have you sitting on a dedication that isn't going to do very much, and I do think it's a bit silly to expect a player to wait all the way until level 4 to play fictional archetype that is so heavily associated with mooks - ninja is not an inherently powerful concept and it should absolutely be doable by level 1.

I think having both an archetype and a subclass option would really help, the latter to get something going immediatley and the former to add the ninja flavor to something that is otherwise already functional.

As an aside on the magic stuff, I think stuff like smokebombs work best as physical things your character carries as gear on their person. The subclass or archetype dedication should enhance the use of said gear, but I think part of the fantasy of being resourceful with a bag of tricks is to quite literally have a bag filled with your tricks that you reach into and pull out something. Typically such mundane items are not particularly effective in PF2e, but like I could definitely see a subclass or feat having a list of items whose effects are altered on use to be genuinely worthwhile.

[Ryangwy]

moosher12 wrote:

I guess the main reason we still gravitate to occult is that no matter how we phrase it, the occult spell list simply is the one that gives us the largest array of the infiltration spells, and Paizo's take on Occultism is designed to allow for it, whether or not it is culturally accurate, it works within the scope of the Lost Omens campaign setting.

I'm fairly certain occult shares all the infiltration stuff with arcane, actually. What occult gets that arcane doesn't is buff spells and spirit damage, which IMO are less suited to infiltration than the ability to manifest (or destroy) physical obstacles that arcane gets.

And when I say '3.x ninjas are occult' I mean in terms of the spell like abilities they get.

You could make a occult wave caster that specialises in attacking debilitated enemies after bamboozling them with spells. My earlier suggested Guardian Ninja Dedication could be a model for how it's damage booster works. I don't think it will be called a ninja, because that would be inaccurate and Paizo strives to be accurate in their non-Western take (even if I disagree with e.g. Cultivator) but it would definitely fulfil a lot of fantasies that people refer to as 'ninja'. Don't know what thematic name can stick the landing, though.

[moosher12]

There are a few thematic spells to consider:

Cantrips: Read the Air
Rank 1: Lose the Path
Rank 2: Death Knell, Pack Attack, Paranoia, Silence
Rank 3: Burglar's Blind, Far Sight, Hypercognition, Sculpt Sound, Shadow Rank 4: Honeyed Words, Rewrite Memory, Tortoise and the Hare
Rank 5: Shadow Blast
Rank 6: Blanket of Stars, Blinding Fury
Rank 7: Ethereal Jaunt, Visions of Danger
Rank 8: Hypnopompic Terrors

Though I suppose going arcane this would be a relatively small list of spells to add.

[Here4daFreeSwag]

Another possibility for adding special powers to Naruto-style ninja abilities would be to make it a setting-only special ability akin to everyone in Dark Sun getting free psionic wild talents or the various Dragonmarks power feats in Eberron? Mebbe some of the "bloodline" superpowers present in certain ninja families being akin to racial abilities, like Aasimar/Tielfing/Dhampir/Geniekin stuff?

[moosher12]

I've been thinking. What if a core aspect of the ninja was making it a ranged melee. A character that closes in but has to be chased. Perhaps it can have an innate spring attack like ability, say a 2-action activity that lets them move, strike, then move. So it would spend 2 actions a turn to either ranged strike twice with MAP, melee strike once, or cast a spell, while often ending turns away from the target.

[moosher12]

Furthering on the concept, what if it kept that 3rd action for setup into the next turn. Such as for sneaking or taking cover once you've gotten some distance.

[Ryangwy]

moosher12 wrote:

I've been thinking. What if a core aspect of the ninja was making it a ranged melee. A character that closes in but has to be chased. Perhaps it can have an innate spring attack like ability, say a 2-action activity that lets them move, strike, then move. So it would spend 2 actions a turn to either ranged strike twice with MAP, melee strike once, or cast a spell, while often ending turns away from the target.

I like skirmishers, but that's kind of what you described, not a ninja. Notably, it interacts with hiding terribly - there's a reason why I made the guardian ninja conflux spell to be action compression for Create a Diversion + Sneak, because you aren't pulling that off any other way.

[moosher12]

But a ninja can be a skirmisher, and our problem is that we cannot specifically be a ninja because it's too culturally coded. We need something culturally agnostic. We cannot make a ninja directly, but we can make something that can be a ninja. Plus, a conflux spell does not make for a core mechanic, for a core mechanic, you'll want something repeatable. Placing your core mechanic in a focus spell slot would be extremely limiting, especially at lower levels where you'd only have 1 focus slot. Your core mechanic needs to be something repeatable every round, or at the worst, every two rounds.

Wikipedia describes a ninja as having functions in infiltration, ambush, reconnaissance, and espionage. So these are points we can pivot on. I believe skirmishing would fall under the ambush aspect.

[Ryangwy]

moosher12 wrote:

But a ninja can be a skirmisher, and our problem is that we cannot specifically be a ninja because it's too culturally coded. We need something culturally agnostic. We cannot make a ninja directly, but we can make something that can be a ninja. Plus, a conflux spell does not make for a core mechanic, for a core mechanic, you'll want something repeatable. Placing your core mechanic in a focus spell slot would be extremely limiting, especially at lower levels where you'd only have 1 focus slot. Your core mechanic needs to be something repeatable every round, or at the worst, every two rounds.

I mean, even if you want to make it culturally agnostic, you still need to sell what makes it more of a ninja than a rogue or monk or swashbuckler with the right dedications. A skirmisher doesn't really... do anything ninja-y that those couldn't already? The occult wavecaster that gets a damage boost by hitting people with conditions (which occult is good at inflicting) is doing something special and leaning into an unexplored aspect of a ninja (even if I disagree with using occult instead of arcane).

Like, I do love the 4e skirmish ranger, but it's a concept that thematically (and mechanically) lends itself to thrown spears and axes far more than daggers and shurikens.

... You know what? People seem really into the occult wavecaster, so I'll try to put it into writing. Give something to talk about.

[moosher12]

Looking forward to reading it.

You are right though that skirmishing should not be the sole definition of a ninja, but I think it can be an aspect. Spellcasting can lend the mystic aspect, and perhaps another ability could lead into the espionage aspect.

Skirmisher certainly would not be a good name for the class as a whole, Infiltrator maybe? But it still can seem pretty mundane, unless one is willing to try to feed the definition that it puts all tools toward infiltration. I really wish we could just say Ninja. It is annoying trying to find an alternate term for a ninja when ninja does the theme best.

[moosher12]

Hm, this might be a stretch, but bare with me. How about Spy? I know spy has a bit too much of a modern bent. And fictional spies are associated with using advanced technology. But in a fantasy world, a spy would likely be willing to use any tool at their disposal, including magic. So perhaps flexing the name Spy to encompass a melding of magic and gadget use? Could even take the witch approach where it can cast spells, and might get an allotment of gadgets per day (the witch had potions).

[PossibleCabbage]

It will be interesting to see how the Starfinder Operative fits into the thematic "ninja" space. The SF2 Core release is at GenCon this year, right?

[moosher12]

Assuming the Operative has not changed much from the Playtest, it would be in the same space as the rogue for the purpose of making a ninja. It'd make for a good mundane ninja, but it would not make for a good jutsu-using ninja.

The Operative is essentially just a hybrid between the Gunslinger and the Rogue, with a variant version of the Precision Ranger's Hunter's Edge. An operative can make for a kung fu action hero, a sniper, or solid snake. (Then there is the issue that many classic ninja weapons are not analog or tech weapons, and are instead archaic weapons, which operatives cannot use as easy. Though there is the debate on whether a knife is a "gun" when being thrown.)

[Unicore]

I really do not understand the desire to make this class a full or wave caster and not a focus spell caster who can use scrolls. It feels like a quick draw feat for scrolls and alchemical items would cover almost all of the mystical powers that the class would need and it can otherwise stay focused on being a competent, full martial like a monk or a champion. I think having a unique mechanic of gaining different kinds of damage boosts or effects based upon targeting a foe with different kinds of applied conditions is pretty good grounds for a unique mechanic for a new martial, and that would not be nearly as fun with any kind of reduced accuracy.

[moosher12]

The reason we don't want a focus spell caster is because focus spells mean you realistically will only know like 3 supernatural things, and those 3 things are extremely expensive, as each one thing is a whole class feat that has to compete with various other utility feats. The maximum amount of spells you'd ever be able to learn is 10, and that's at the cost of every other class feat. And by the time you're auto-generating scrolls like a spell trickster in class form, you might as well have prepared spell slots, as scrolls are just prepared spells you have to spend an extra interact action to draw. And I'll reiterate the point that a lot of spells you'd want as a ninja already exist as ranked spells within the Arcane and Occult traditions, and it'd be redundant to do the same spells but as focus spells.

So it raises the question. Spend 3 feats to only know 3 spells, or learn 40 spells for free, and be able to prepare 4 a day as the needs change, plus 5 cantrips?

A final point is page count. Focus spell lists are simply very small, which means there will never be enough focus spell variance to make everyone happy. While spells can be drawn from the already existing spell lists without needing all the extra pages. I'd be surprised if the ninja got more than 4 pages of focus spells (the monk only got 3), which is not a lot of variety for how many things people expect from a ninja.

[Unicore]

moosher12 wrote:

The reason we don't want a focus spell caster is because focus spells mean you realistically will only know like 3 supernatural things, and those 3 things are extremely expensive, as each one thing is a whole class feat that has to compete with various other utility feats. The maximum amount of spells you'd ever be able to learn is 10, and that's at the cost of every other class feat. And by the time you're auto-generating scrolls like a spell trickster in class form, you might as well have prepared spell slots, as scrolls are just prepared spells you have to spend an extra interact action to draw. And I'll reiterate the point that a lot of spells you'd want as a ninja already exist as ranked spells within the Arcane and Occult traditions, and it'd be redundant to do the same spells but as focus spells.

So it raises the question. Spend 3 feats to only know 3 spells, or learn 40 spells for free, and be able to prepare 4 a day as the needs change, plus 5 cantrips?

Because casting means less martial prowess, and I just don't know any examples of a Ninja that don't fight well. I can see the desire to make the ninja fairly glass-cannon-like, but that really doesn't work out very well in PF2. Giving up martial saves for casting ability pretty much requires using spells to cover your defenses and not being very good at it. Combine that with something like 6 hp per level for a character you want to ever engage enemies in melee and you have a bit of a trap class.

Almost all of the utility ninja magic you want access to is trivially cheap as scrolls by mid levels. It really isn't doing the class a favor by paying for those magical effects effects out of the class budget instead of their equipment budget. The stuff you can get instead (proficiency boosts to saves, attacks, etc, become much better.

Perhaps my vision of this class is best as a monk archetype that trades away flurry of blows and HP for a class feature that does interesting things when you successfully strike a foe with a condition. I actually think sticking to simple weapons would work really well for this class, as not receiving training in weapons banned from everyone but nobility is fairly historically accurate.

[moosher12]

If a class has to buy consumables to perform a major aspect of its theme, the class is not actually capable of that theme, unless it can produce those consumables for free.

A fighter buying a bunch of health potions does not make the fighter a healer class.

[moosher12]

I also feel like what you're asking for is just a variant ranger. The ranger already has a chassis that fits what you described. All it needs is an appropriate Hunter's Edge and an expansion of focus spells. Basically a ninja-themed alternative to the Vindicator.

[Ryangwy]

Hexblade
Efficient killing? That's a myth. A hexblade knows that truely efficient killing isn't done by swinging faster or harder, but by browbeating or hamstringing the foe such that when the blow comes, they've already lost.

Proficiencies As per Magus for the most part, except 2+Int skills. Studious spell starts at 5th with 1st rank slot.

Cull the Weak
When making a melee Strike or a thrown weapon Strike not suffering from range penalties, deal additional precision damage for each of the following the target has: off-guard, immobilised, deafened, dazzled, blinded, fascinated, frightened, sickened, enfeebled, clumsy, drained, stupefied, slowed, stunned, persistent damage, an affliction, to a maximum of 2 + your highest spell rank. Double the precision damage if you have weapon specialisation, or triple if you have greater weapon specialisation.

Killing Style
Your killing style determines your spellcasting tradition, key attribute, and attribute for spell attack and DCs. It also grants you two skills, a cantrip, a focus spell, additional studious spells and an additional ability tied to certain weapons.

Eviscrator
A giant hunk of metal is a symbol of someone about to be pulped. You're happy to play along with this fundamental understanding. Your tradition is Occult and your key attribute is Cha. You become trained in Intimidation and Occultism, gain the bullhorn cantrip and the suspended blade focus spell. Your studious spells are enfeeble (5th), stupefy (7th), fear (11th) and chroma leech (13th).

Your melee strikes with non-reach two handed weapons deal additional mental damage equal to the highest status penalty the target is suffering from. Double the damage if you have weapon specialisation, or triple if you have greater weapon specialisation.

Humble Killer
Nobody pays attention to the peasant... until said peasant kills them. You are very good at pretending to be one, and your spells fuel your ability to turn humble-seeming weapons into killers. Your tradition is Arcane or Occult (your choice) and your key attribute is Cha. You become trained in Deception and Arcana or Occultism (per your tradition), gain the figment cantrip and the vanish into smoke focus spell. Your studious spells are flashy disappearance (5th), invisibility (7th), wooden double (11th) and mirror's misfortune (13th).

You gain the spellflurry action.
Spellflurry 1 action
Flourish
Frequency: Until recharge
Make two Strikes with an unarmed attack or a weapon with the monk trait. This action is recharged when you Cast a Spell.

Afflictor
Crippling a target is a field of study well trod. You are happy to mix more mundane methods of wearing down your enemy with your magic. Your tradition is Arcane and your key attribute is Int. You become trained in Crafting and Arcana, gain the puff of poison cantrip and the envenom weapon focus spell. Your studious spells are goblin pox (5th), extract poison (7th), noxous metals (11th) and mercurial stride (13th).

You gain Quick ALchemy benefits, creating up to 2 versatile vials, which you can only use to create alchemical items with the poison trait. Whenever you hit an enemy with a weapon that deals slashing or piercing damage, your arcane force stimulates any afflictions in the target's system. The next time they would take poison damage, ongoing damage, or roll against an affliction before the end of your next turn, they take additional poison damage equal to the number of weapon dice.

[Bluemagetim]

Just to make sure this ninja class would have key stat as Dex right?

[Ryangwy]

Bluemagetim wrote:

Just to make sure this ninja class would have key stat as Dex right?

Nope! It's your casting attribute, as I've listed, because you need to hit them with a spell or skill action to turn on most of your stuff. In theory.

[moosher12]

I like the idea of giving a choice between Arcane and Occult. How about for your key attribute giving a choice between Dexterity and the Spellcasting modifier?

On top of that, Charisma is not a bad choice, as it feeds well into intimidation and deception, but going further, I'd proposition a choice between Wisdom and Charisma for the spellcasting modifier. So you can choose to either focus on the charisma heavy stuff as said above, or on tracking with the bonus to Survival and Perception, to help reduce the Attribute tax, as you'd still want both a high spellcasting stat and a high dex.

[Bluemagetim]

is this a prepared or spontaneous caster?

[Ryangwy]

moosher12 wrote:

I like the idea of giving a choice between Arcane and Occult. How about for your key attribute giving a choice between Dexterity and the Spellcasting modifier?

On top of that, Charisma is not a bad choice, as it feeds well into intimidation and deception, but going further, I'd proposition a choice between Wisdom and Charisma for the spellcasting modifier. So you can choose to either focus on the charisma heavy stuff as said above, or on tracking with the bonus to Survival and Perception, to help reduce the Attribute tax, as you'd still want both a high spellcasting stat and a high dex.

Note the Eviscrator subclass, which wants high Str! I think this class could survive being a -1 behind, that certainly doesn't seem to impact the Thaumaturge that much. Hopefully that power budget goes somewhere nice, I'm a lot less sure how good Cull the Weak is relative to, say, sneak attack.

The spellcasting attribute is built around the 'main skill' of the class - Intimidation for Eviscrator, Deception for not-Ninja, Crafting for the poisoner. I did think of a Wis version with Medicine based on diseases, but there's a shocking paucity of disease causing spells in general, so it got shuttered. Sad. Fortunately, you can just use divination spells to track if you need to.

Bluemagetim wrote:

is this a prepared or spontaneous caster?

Prepared spellbook, like the magus. The idea is this class emphasises planning.

[Taja the Barbarian]

moosher12 wrote:

...

Wikipedia describes a ninja as having functions in infiltration, ambush, reconnaissance, and espionage. So these are points we can pivot on. I believe skirmishing would fall under the ambush aspect.

Here's the key problem with the entire class concept: Most of these functions just don't work well in a typical PC party because they fundamentally require you to leave 'non-ninja' party members behind and play solo...

Ninjas in most media tend to operate solo or with other ninjas, which is a fundamental issue with a group-based game like Pathfinder.

On a side note, skirmishing is probably a horrible idea for a Ninja as your foe running away from you and raising an alarm is probably your worst nightmare: You need to kill your foes quickly and quietly, which is basically infeasible in a hit point based game.

[pH unbalanced]

Unicore wrote:

Perhaps my vision of this class is best as a monk archetype that trades away flurry of blows and HP for a class feature that does interesting things when you successfully strike a foe with a condition. I actually think sticking to simple weapons would work really well for this class, as not receiving training in weapons banned from everyone but nobility is fairly historically accurate.

This fits my vision best also. Probably also trade out the Unarmed Attack buff. I've essentially played this kind of Ninja with a Qi Spell focused Monk who also had Trick Magic Item and a good Nature skill. (Only wish Obscuring Mist wasn't a 3-action spell.)

No one has mentioned Alchemist, but I could also see a ninja getting some sort of consumable usage like Versatile Vials but with a completely different list of consumables (Smoke Sticks/Pellets being obvious, but there are others)

[Bluemagetim]

I was suggesting feat buy in to some basic alchemy and maybe a later feat to get more.
Same thing with spellcasting.

I would think of the ninja class as a martial that has a class gimick around concealed and hidden conditions that strongly impact playstyle, a set of ninjalike focus spells, and feat buy in options to either alchemy stuff or spellcasting stuff but I dont see either as the main thing a ninja does. I dont see ninja as a main spellcasting class myself, at most maybe a wavecaster.

For multiclassing into this ninja you could pick up the focus spells but not the class gimick around concealed and hidden. Would probably improve stealth to expert.

But what the gimick should provide? I havnt had great ideas for it so far.
Someone suggested a gimick around foes with conditions and that could be good as an advanced benefit in chassis or a level 6 class feat.

[moosher12]

pH unbalanced wrote:

No one has mentioned Alchemist, but I could also see a ninja getting some sort of consumable usage like Versatile Vials but with a completely different list of consumables (Smoke Sticks/Pellets being obvious, but there are others)

The new investigator has an allotment of alchemical tools and/or elixirs. Perhaps a ninja could have an allotment of alchemical tools and/or bombs.

[Ascalaphus]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

...

Wikipedia describes a ninja as having functions in infiltration, ambush, reconnaissance, and espionage. So these are points we can pivot on. I believe skirmishing would fall under the ambush aspect.

Here's the key problem with the entire class concept: Most of these functions just don't work well in a typical PC party because they fundamentally require you to leave 'non-ninja' party members behind and play solo...

Ninjas in most media tend to operate solo or with other ninjas, which is a fundamental issue with a group-based game like Pathfinder.

On a side note, skirmishing is probably a horrible idea for a Ninja as your foe running away from you and raising an alarm is probably your worst nightmare: You need to kill your foes quickly and quietly, which is basically infeasible in a hit point based game.

I think there could be room for a class that's good at scouting ahead, figuring out what's there, deciding it's too much to handle alone, and coming back to the party. Then, the party as a whole goes into the fight knowing what to expect.

Compare this to all the complaints about why prepared casting isn't as good as promised because you often don't have enough advance intel on enemies to actually bring the perfect spell selection.

But it would require really clear class design that communicates to players very clearly what you can and can't do. If you give players the impression they're gonna take out all the sentries quietly alone, it's not gonna turn out happy.

---

I think figuring out "what does the ninja do that other classes don't already do" is essential to design. And scouting ahead is something other classes don't actually do great, even rogues and rangers. Any on-level or higher level enemy is going to have enough Perception that scouting is problematic. And of course you have a lot of enemies that are inside rooms with doors. Can you get into the room to see what enemies are there without them noticing the door opens?

So this could be a niche for ninjas. The class that gets you advance warning of what's in there. The class that before combat sneaks around so that when the fight breaks out you have someone standing behind the enemy wizard in the back ready to shank them when they try to cast.