This was posted on Pathfinder 2e Reddit yesterday.
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/pathfinder-dark-archive-paizo-inc/11476384 09?ean=9781640787551
and
https://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Dark-Archive-Remastered-Special/dp/164078 7569/ref=sr_1_2?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.vIg-ANQiK6FxSIszpTTAz0zAUzh_2hVjyiRok45RMc LcsYZHk9RPgspG6NJbdNamfM1KMwn7te0AK7wM-W_yyZ7O-uETW2PNiXQ7ZqQeNEV-SYCNnxD60 doJPSdCLxAJoYZbj2-0D22FqXvY8hRJfkCedPEPF7lom3O9MpcafZst2E61Dk66iIfAczxQpL4c Tdpo9MtCKhhlaQcnvhgl7cPn1mG2cVy75iIkQjIPnURi-uHDqUwiuXr-_owpMe9Gcb4UnzgUZLU ARGpE8vpO6RLMVi4MoPk8oDPAAMqRdOI.a4fHtCQMdtfeFqJs3j8gwTXcO0Ep4AJoak4AOHCN9- I&dib_tag=se&fst=as%3Aoff&keywords=pathfinder&qid=175057194 7&s=books&sr=1-2
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Can someone build a better psychic? I hope so.
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I hope psychic gets some improvements. The class really needs them, specially post-Remaster.
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What are the particular short comings on Psychic?
How have they been affected by the Remaster even before being remastered themselves?None of this is sarcasm, I'm curious.
Besides what Prontae11 said, the class trades spell slots for more and better cantrips, but while the class does have more cantrips, besides a few exceptions they aren't really that strong. And which makes matters worse is that those few strong cantrips aren't damage cantrips, which kinda goes against the rest of the design of the class which seems to be that of a blaster caster. The class also depends a ton on unleash psyche to work, both because its your damage steroid that allows you to blast and because a ton of feats require you to be under its effects, which is a problem because unlesh psyche only lasts for 2 turns and you become stupified afterwards.
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one of their main class features, the ability to regain multiple focus points between combats, is just how focus points work now. Every caster in the game was given a fairly noticeable buff in the remaster except them. Plus, they weren't exactly the strongest caster to begin with.What are the particular short comings on Psychic?
How have they been affected by the Remaster even before being remastered themselves?None of this is sarcasm, I'm curious.
Yeah, that is the main problem - that everyone is now eating the Psychic's lunch.
Another sticking point is Unleash Psyche. It is a damage boost mechanic as well as unlocking a small handful of combat abilities. The most direct comparison mechanic from a different class is Barbarian's Rage. And it doesn't compare well.
Legacy Rage could be started on the first turn before the Barbarian's first attack, so every attack made had their damage boost. It also had a drawback that was fairly minor and didn't have the potential to cost resources. And the duration was so long that you are unlikely to ever experience that rather minor drawback while combat is still going on.
Unleash Psyche can't be started on the first turn. You have to cast a spell on your first turn and then you can start your damage boost on your next turn. The drawback that it has when it ends is quite noticeable - most notably, it can cause you to waste your very limited spell slots. And the duration of Unleash Psyche is so short that you are nearly guaranteed to experience it every battle. The choice is: do you avoid using it until it is so late in the combat that the damage boost isn't needed, or do you use it when the increased damage is meaningful and experience the downside before combat ends.
And then the Remastered version of Rage landed. Now Rage may not even the best mechanical comparison to Unleash Psyche. Because Rage no longer has a meaningful downside when it ends. Rage can now be started for free at the start of combat, it still lasts for the entire duration of nearly all combats, and now there is no downside when it ends.
It makes people wonder why Unleash Psyche is so difficult to use and so punishing if the combat doesn't go exactly as you expected it to and you end up using it at the wrong time.
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Also, the sorcerer now gets half the bonus of unleash psyche for free and it applies to healing as well. Not like the psychic has healing options (I think?) but I feel the psychic should follow suit and become a passive benefit as well, that or be like the swashbuckler and have a lower passive benefit and the action itself makes it higher. Something like a bonus equal to the spell rank's level as a passve and triple the spell rank's level if you are unleashed.
This plus a way to extend the duration of unleash psyche would be nice. And no stupified once it ends.
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The worst thing about the Psychic is that the Whispering Mind subconscious mind got stuck with Sending, a rank 5 spell, as their rank 6 bonus spell known. Disgusting.
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Not like the psychic has healing options (I think?)
Soothe from spell slots, and Restore the Mind from Emotional Acceptance Subconscious Mind. Those are the two that I can think of immediately.
So it isn't much, but it does exist. Which does further support your case.
What are the particular short comings on Psychic?
How have they been affected by the Remaster even before being remastered themselves?None of this is sarcasm, I'm curious.
One of its main things was fast recharging focus points. But now everybody has basically the same mechanics for doing that they find themselves in a bit of a weird spot.
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It's easy to buff the Psychic without changing its page space -- half of the feats, including all of the amp ones, are completely pointless and can be deleted with nothing being lost. They can save a few of those by introducing friendly fire targeting, but I doubt they will. Let them all burn.
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I agree with Xenocrat. Paizo's problem with changes is that they don't want to mess with the layout of the books. This prevents major changes that completely rewrite many mechanics, but psychic and thaumaturge can receive the improvements they need with only minor changes. So I don't see a big problem with this.
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That's another problem of the psychic. The feat list is laughably bad.
I don't expect them to delete them, but I think so far the proposed changes wouldn't increase the page space.
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The thing is, I wouldn't expect a huge buff for Psychic because i don't think the Remaster actually nerfed them-- the extra focus point thing wasn't really a buff, it was a lubricant to allow for the amp playstyle to function at low levels, which was just buying back the power of their missing spell slot as sustain, whereas I think the power is in the actual subclass mechanics and amps. Now granted, I don't think they'd be busted with a third spell slot per level or something, so we'll see.
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Besides what Prontae11 said, the class trades spell slots for more and better cantrips, but while the class does have more cantrips, besides a few exceptions they aren't really that strong. And which makes matters worse is that those few strong cantrips aren't damage cantrips, which kinda goes against the rest of the design of the class which seems to be that of a blaster caster. The class also depends a ton on unleash psyche to work, both because its your damage steroid that allows you to blast and because a ton of feats require you to be under its effects, which is a problem because unlesh psyche only lasts for 2 turns and you become stupified afterwards.What are the particular short comings on Psychic?
How have they been affected by the Remaster even before being remastered themselves?None of this is sarcasm, I'm curious.
Additionally - those really cool strong cantrips are easy to get on other classes via the Archetype. Magus loves Imaginary Weapon, anyone who wants to move around quickly loves Amp Warp Step, and everyone else in your party loves Amp Guidance.
Psychic is one of the big cases of "the cool thing the class does is easy to get in the Archetype". Psychic isn't alone in that, but unlike Champion & Oracle (two other cases), Psychic doesn't have a lot of other stuff going for it.
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It's easy to buff the Psychic without changing its page space -- half of the feats, including all of the amp ones, are completely pointless and can be deleted with nothing being lost. They can save a few of those by introducing friendly fire targeting, but I doubt they will. Let them all burn.Deleting half the feats (and giving the class new ones?) might be easy in principle, but it's a massive content change which requires a lot of new writing (not to mention playtesting). This is exactly what I'm betting they won't do. I'm guessing you already know this - you don't seriously think the remaster changes will involve 'deleting half the feats', do you?
So can you think of a '200 characters changed or less' type of change that fixes psychic? Because realistically, that's the sort of change I think we can hope to see. Not much bigger.
Feats are the lesser problem. The class can get better feat in later books. Also, CRB many feats changed during reprints (like Alchemist changing Powerful Alchemy to become a class features instead of a feat in 2nd print). While the number of pages of the class doesn't change, the designers have way more space to work than many people think.
Anyway, IMO the main issues that psychic have been the low number of spell slots and the bad Unleash Psyche. The designers can adjust them pretty easy with small text changes.
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The CRB/APG remasters aren't helpful to judge off of, because they were full new books. Guns & Gears and Inventor are the better example to look at for what to expect in this remaster. But fortunately, number of slots, rounds of unleash, etc., aren't changes that use more space.
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Ideally I would prefer for the spell slots to be left as is since that gives the class an unique feeling and allows for more budget to be thrown somewhere else (I'm also not the biggest caster fan so less spell slots is usually a win for me), but since the scope of changes is limited due to the circumstances I think standard caster progression for spell slots and unlimited or passive unleash psyche are probably the most likely changes to occur.
However, I wouldn't have expected some of the changes in G&G like combination weapons using your highest firearm proficiency for gunslingers or singular expertise being replaced by slinger's precision, so more changes can be expected too I hope.
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I feel like the power difference between cantrips and spells from slots widened a smidgen in the remaster. Not adding your casting stat to cantrip damage lowered the damage floor. And for heightening - a "real" spell heightens at something close to 2d6 per rank, while a cantrip heightens at 1d4 per rank, 1d6 if you're one of the spicy cantrips.
This makes psychics as the "cantrip masters" kinda meh.
And yeah, the feat list doesn't help either. Feats that blast everyone around you with psychic angst are super flavorful, but you don't have the HP or AC to wade into the middle of a group of enemies, and your fellow PCs aren't protected from your feats.
I think psychics being not 100% stable, dipping a bit into uncontrolled amounts of power is a cool theme. But it does need to be sufficiently ergonomic to work.
You could maybe rewrite Unleash Psyche to have an "up" phase and a "down" phase. In the down phase you're stupefied, except for cantrips: cantrips still count you as being in the "up" phase. And maybe you don't pay focus points for amping cantrips while unleashed.
I feel psychic needs a remaster treatment with about the generosity that the swashbuckler got, because the sorcerer is currently taking its lunch.
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If nothing else, 3 slots per level instead of 2 would go a long way and take up the same page space. It makes the class less unique, but this is a post-remaster-oracle world. I have a hard time justifying 2 slots for the class without other changes.
If it keeps 2 slots, I think a bump to 8 hp/level and light armor proficiency would probably be welcome. Several class kits push it towards melee, and it's horribly equipped for it as it stands. The "glass cannon" fantasy that playstyle embodies just... doesn't have much room to exist in PF2E.
I'd also love to see improvements to unleash psyche, as well, but I don't really know what I'd want there. There are a lot of possible improvements, but it's hard to improve the feature and also maintain the bursty feel of the class.
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So guns and Gears got remastered, right? In what ways were those classes affected post remaster? Given we haven't heard much from Paizo regarding remastering the classes, just like with Gunslinger and Inventor, it is likely however much they were changed will be in line with how much the Psychic and Thaumaturge will change.
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Paizo actually posted the G&G changes as errata. So if you want to check them out yourself its the Guns and Gears Winter 2025 Errata on the FAQ page.
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I think the three major pain points with the Psychic right now are their focus pool, Unleash Psyche, and their multiclass archetype:
As a side benefit, I think the solutions to all of the above would also all involve simplifying the Psychic's mechanics and reducing the amount of text in their rules for the most part: their Refocusing would no longer have any conditions imposed, Unleash Psyche would no longer need to specify a self-stupefy, and their MC archetype wouldn't need to mention their amp. That, and amping itself could probably end up taking less text too if it had just one entry, instead of needing supplementary text and its own sidebar.
I am not sure if they would do it but if they really wanted to make the psychic the "master" of focus stuff instead of another spell slot potentially give them a psychic only ability to have a fourth focus point.
So guns and Gears got remastered, right? In what ways were those classes affected post remaster? Given we haven't heard much from Paizo regarding remastering the classes, just like with Gunslinger and Inventor, it is likely however much they were changed will be in line with how much the Psychic and Thaumaturge will change.
Both Inventor and Gunslinger got some very good quality of life buffs and some fundamental reworks to their class features. I wouldn't be surprised if we see similar changes to the thaumaturge and psychic.
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Mark my words: the psychic is going the way of the oracle. Maybe even the way of the battle oracle!
*laughs nefariously*
Not getting my hopes up for big changes but it's always fun to speculate. Some possible changes I would love;
- Less friendly fire feats. Many of the amps and feats like violent unleash, dark personas presence, psi catastrophe, etc are all not too crazy strong, and need you to be up in the business of enemies. Hitting your allies too makes them too hard to use to justify taking, imo.
- Damage cantrips deal more damage baseline. Some cantrips like tk rend deal 5d6 damage at level 20. Like really? I know it can be amped, but even amped and psyche unleashed it doesn't do more damage than most other AOE damage focus spells, which are typically 16 to 18d6 damage at 20. Also seems to defeat the purpose of unleash psyche boosting damage to psychic cantrips when the special psychic cantrips the class gets are weaker to compensate for it (that's conjecture but it's how it looks to me).
- some form of effortless concentration. I know it only comes in late game, but it's such a huge feat that most every other caster gets. It really lets other casters dunk on psychic, damage wise, if the right spell is picked to sustain.
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I honestly feel Diverse Lore is more of a QoL fix to allow the thaumaturge to actually be the RK class, and the feat itself is pretty much in line with other similar feats like Loremaster Dedication, though unlike those feats the skill has an scaling that doesn't suck and the thaumaturge has other ways to close that gap even further. I also feel people often overrate the usefulness of RK but that's a whole different discussion.
I also don't expect Paizo to nerf anything. Not even the Psychic Dedication. The only explicit nerf I recall in the Remaster was the Monk Dedication not giving access to FoB later down the line, which was received very poorly by the community and more so when just a few months later we got the spirit warrior archetype which effectively granted FoB at 2nd level. I also think nerf aren't really popular, more so when those nerfs can potentially be build defining (one of my player is playing a playtest commander w/ psychic dedication that uses message to bypass the 1/round tactic limitation, it would be kinda bad to rearrenge your whole build just because of a nerf). I don't think that a few classes can use some of the cantrips better than the psychic itself is a problem, the real problem is that the psychic is bad at using their own cantrips (note that I'm not saying the psychic uses them worse than other classes, I'm saying they are bad at using them period).
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I'm thinking maybe the Psychic could recharge Focus Points mid-combat, perhaps similar to how a Swashbuckler acquires Panache. That is, a Remaster Swashbuckler where certain abilities can be tagged like Bravado and you'd spend that Focus Point before the end of your next round. So maybe you could churn out enough Focus Points to keep Psychic abilities relevant the whole combat, but spending them on more powerful abilities (including outside Focus Spells) would burn them up, as would filling in the gaps when you failed to recharge/borrow (which with 3 Focus Points should cover nearly every battle).
I'm imagining some sort of juggling between Amped Cantrips and spell slots (some of the lower level ones which maybe could be duplicated with a Focus Point). Add in some class effects to much like Oracle Curses, but which rather than diminish you they provide Focus Points (so aren't as powerful, but maybe at 1-action could remain worthwhile). One ability could be a Spellshape (perhaps as a Free Action) that grants a temp Focus Point that then could be used next round, then repeat. Various comboes are possible.
I'm thinking maybe the Psychic could recharge Focus Points mid-combat, perhaps similar to how a Swashbuckler acquires Panache. That is, a Remaster Swashbuckler where certain abilities can be tagged like Bravado and you'd spend that Focus Point before the end of your next round. So maybe you could churn out enough Focus Points to keep Psychic abilities relevant the whole combat, but spending them on more powerful abilities (including outside Focus Spells) would burn them up, as would filling in the gaps when you failed to recharge/borrow (which with 3 Focus Points should cover nearly every battle).
I'm imagining some sort of juggling between Amped Cantrips and spell slots (some of the lower level ones which maybe could be duplicated with a Focus Point). Add in some class effects to much like Oracle Curses, but which rather than diminish you they provide Focus Points (so aren't as powerful, but maybe at 1-action could remain worthwhile). One ability could be a Spellshape (perhaps as a Free Action) that grants a temp Focus Point that then could be used next round, then repeat. Various comboes are possible.
I think this could work if you could only use the focus points you regain for amps and nothing else. I doubt Paizo wants psychics possibly spamming non-psychic focus spell.
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I think the concept of "dangerous hard to control psychic powers" is a cool niche to build from. Instead of junking those emanation feats, maybe the rest of the class should be engineered a bit more to actually make the psychic a caster that's good at being in the thick of melee and makes enemies regret trying to corner the mage.
Right now, imaginary weapon makes more sense for a magus that's comfortable in melee, than a psychic. But what if the psychic was comfortable in melee?
I think this could work if you could only use the focus points you regain for amps and nothing else. I doubt Paizo wants psychics possibly spamming non-psychic focus spell.I'm thinking maybe the Psychic could recharge Focus Points mid-combat, perhaps similar to how a Swashbuckler acquires Panache. That is, a Remaster Swashbuckler where certain abilities can be tagged like Bravado and you'd spend that Focus Point before the end of your next round. So maybe you could churn out enough Focus Points to keep Psychic abilities relevant the whole combat, but spending them on more powerful abilities (including outside Focus Spells) would burn them up, as would filling in the gaps when you failed to recharge/borrow (which with 3 Focus Points should cover nearly every battle).
I'm imagining some sort of juggling between Amped Cantrips and spell slots (some of the lower level ones which maybe could be duplicated with a Focus Point). Add in some class effects to much like Oracle Curses, but which rather than diminish you they provide Focus Points (so aren't as powerful, but maybe at 1-action could remain worthwhile). One ability could be a Spellshape (perhaps as a Free Action) that grants a temp Focus Point that then could be used next round, then repeat. Various comboes are possible.
Yes, that's what I'd meant by having outside ones (and more powerful Psychic ones) burn up the reserves, not able to be replaced until combat has ended.
I think this would probably be my ideal changes for Unleash Psyche:
* Change the requirements to "You aren't stupified".
* Change the duration to 1 round.
* The status bonus to damage becomes its own passive feature (like a swashbuckler's precise damage) that isn't affected by Unleash Psyche.
* After your unleashed psyche subsides, you can't use Unleash Psyche again for 1 round, and you regain a focus point (no stupified).
* You can only use the focus points you regain with Unleash Psyche to cast amps.
If regaining a focus point every other turn could be a bit too much, I wouldn't be opposed to a flat check instead. DC 11 would be ideal, but DC 15 is the most likely.
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Some kind of curse like system simulating some form of mental or emotional fatigue or disruption could be a cool way to manage amps.
Though first I'd like to see them make the cantrips good to use. Most of the cantrips take too long to set up or are unwieldy. PF2 is not a game where a slow set up pays off like PF1 where you could buff and prepare. PF2 is a hit them hard and fast or get left behind game. If you can't go hard and go fast, the martials will eat your lunch killing everything.
Martial attacks don't require set up like casting another spell first. Martials close the gap and hammer. Set up time is an action economy penalty that no class should have at this point.
That means psychic cantrips need to work and work right now. Unleash psyche waiting for the second round after casting is slowing them down while the casters are opening with chain lightning and the martials are opening with sudden charge.
Set up time is a penalty for any class stuck with it.
I wonder if you could make unleash activate when you amp a cantrip (or cast a slotted spell?) and have it extend an additional round when you use an amp. Tying it into other class mechanics would maybe feel more satisfying.
I think this would probably be my ideal changes for Unleash Psyche:
* Change the requirements to "You aren't stupified".
* Change the duration to 1 round.
* The status bonus to damage becomes its own passive feature (like a swashbuckler's precise damage) that isn't affected by Unleash Psyche.
* After your unleashed psyche subsides, you can't use Unleash Psyche again for 1 round, and you regain a focus point (no stupified).
* You can only use the focus points you regain with Unleash Psyche to cast amps.If regaining a focus point every other turn could be a bit too much, I wouldn't be opposed to a flat check instead. DC 11 would be ideal, but DC 15 is the most likely.
I think keeping the 2 rounds duration, leaving the status bonus tied to damage and putting the focus point at the start of unleash (notably this incentivises you to shoot one on the first turn without unleashing) keeps the play pattern but makes it up for longer.
Your version means psychics only Unleash to refresh Focus Points or spam psyche actions which kind of throws everything out of whack. They're supposed to be unleashing when Unleashing!
Fair enough, but I think the status bonus to damage should be its own feature, more so when the sorcerer gets half the bonus as a passive. That or increase its damage. I also kinda like your proposal for the focus point gain to happen when you use the action rather than when its ends, because (assuming the requirements aren't changed) it means you'll regain one focus point on your 2nd turn, likely returning to 3 focus points if you used one in your first turn (very likely).