Witch for upcoming campaign

[Toshy]

Hello everyone, for an upcoming campaign, where I as a forever DM will be a player (whoo hoo), I'm strongly inclined to play a witch. As I really like the flavor I'd go with the cartomancer archetype and maybe pick up some levels in the harrower prestige class.

I don't want to build a full optimized character, but avoid things that would be straight bad choices.

We'll probably run either Strange Aeons or Hell's Rebels, and be a group of four players.
As of now the other players will probably go with a skald, a scaled fist monk and either a Paladin or another full caster (maybe even arcane).

What i got so far:

Malika Crowe
Female Human (Varisian)
Cartomancer Witch 6, Harrower 1

20 Point-Buy (Human +2 Int)
STR 10 DEX 16 CON 12 INT 17 WIS 11 CHA 10

Traits
Pragmatic Activator
Harrow Chosen (or Campaign relevant trait)
Fey-Hearted (alternate racial)

Level 1, Witch
Hex - Protective Luck
Feat - Extra Hex (Cackle)
Human Feat - Extra Hex (Evil Eye)

Level 2, Witch
-

Level 3, Witch
Feat - Harrowed

Level 4, Witch
Hex - Soothsayer
ASI Int

Level 5, Witch
Feat - Point Blank Shot

Level 6, Harrower
-

Level 7, Witch
Hex - Flight
Feat - Precise Shot

As her patron i imagine some chaotic fey spirit or beeing, whose power manifested in the heirloom harrowdeck, so I'm indecisive between trickery, deception (which both fit the fey theme), healing (to be a better support) or elements for some damaging options (especially shocking grasp in combination with the spell deck delivery).

As I'm probably focusing on the supportive/utility side of my hexes, so my hex-dc won't be super relevant, which made me consider the harrower prestige class for more flavor. I choose Evil Eye to have some offensive hex option, but consider changig it to either the healing hex (and probably retrain as soon as we have a CLW-wand) or the fortune hex, as my main role will be support and avoid (and heal) party damage.

Soothsayer is specifically chosen at 4th level and not at first to be not too strong at level 1 and beeing symbolic for beeing more in touch with the patron's power and herr skills regarding the harrow.

I'm looking for suggestions for spells and thoughts/comments on what I've got so far. Anything that should be changed?
Are there any good divination spells on the witch's spell list to even consider the harrow chosen trait, or would it be useless except for flavor?

[Dragonchess Player]

I would note that the Slumber hex is very good, especially in combination with Evil Eye + Cackle. However, this may not be as thematically appropriate.

The spell anticipate peril (from the Fate patron, which is probably very appropriate for a harrower) would gain an extra 2 min duration from Harrow Chosen. 1st level witch spells that would also benefit include comprehend languages (+20 min duration), detect secret doors (can maintain concentration for +2 min), pierce facade (+20 min duration), and twisted futures (affect 2 extra targets, lasts +2 rounds).

[Toshy]

In addition, does anyone know of a simple way (within the upper frame) of getting a single psychic spell as a witch (looking at you, mind thrust I)?

[I grok do u]

Toshy wrote:

In addition, does anyone know of a simple way (within the upper frame) of getting a single psychic spell as a witch (looking at you, mind thrust I)?

The line of feats to get Psychic Disciple is the most straightforward, but 3 feat investment is rough.

Next is the typically inadvisable level dip into psychic.

Of course, I'm sure how mind thrust fits into your theme, but you can work with the GM to customize the patron spells perhaps.

Harrow chosen helps with duration and also overcoming SR with spells like Anticipate Thoughts.

[Tom Sampson]

The Pathfinder Savant or Loremaster (by way of the Secret of Magical Discipline feat) prestige classes would both work for that.

[Northern Spotted Owl]

I would add the Fortune hex to that lineup. Another fun option is Prehensile Hair to help with some of your touch-range curses.

I’ll look at spells tomorrow.

[I grok do u]

Tom Sampson wrote:

The Pathfinder Savant or Loremaster (by way of the Secret of Magical Discipline feat) prestige classes would both work for that.

Good options. Savant will cost a witch spell level or taking favored prestige class and prestigious spellcaster to get it back.

Loremaster just takes a couple extra levels to get to it.

[Joynt Jezebel]

Toshy wrote:

In addition, does anyone know of a simple way (within the upper frame) of getting a single psychic spell as a witch (looking at you, mind thrust I)?

I can't find a convenient way.

Why do you want that particular spell?

The Mind Patron gives you a bunch of psychic spells. But not that one. You could ask your GM very nicely if they will allow you to take the spell you want in place of the 1st or 2nd level spell the patron gives you. Promise them sexual favours or something.

Another path is to start as a half-elf with the starchild trait, or a human by way of adopted. That gives you the Psychic Sensitivity feat which is one of the pre-requisites of Psychic Disciple. It also has other benefits, psychic skill unlocks, at least I think so. Check that it works by the RAW or with your GM if you are motivated by getting the skill unlocks.

Finally, have a look at Northern Spotted Owl's Witch Guide. It is very good and up to date.

[Northern Spotted Owl]

Joynt Jezebel wrote:

Finally, have a look at Northern Spotted Owl's Witch Guide. It is very good and up to date.

Kind of you. Here: it is.

In terms of healing, good options include:

- Buy a wand of cure light wounds. This is an incredible value.
- The Healing hex is pretty great at lower levels, but decreasingly worth the hex slot once you can afford a wand of CLW.
- The Healing patron gets you Lesser Restoration, which is one of the key spells the Witch list lacks for this role.

For hexes, I'd look at:
- Fortune -- This pairs really well with Soothsayer, even if it's only 1/day. A hit that would have a 50% chance jumps to 75% (since 50% x 50% = 25% of missing on both rolls). And it's in fact over-powered if any of your party members lean into critical hits. Consider a weapon with a 19-20 crit range and a character that takes Improved Critical to expand that to 17-20. With the Fortune hex applied they would need to roll 1-16 twice in a row (80% x 80% = 64%), which means that a full 36% of the time they crit.
- Prehensile Hair -- This is a ton of fun, it can allow you to deliver touch range spells for a modestly safe distance (consider a wand of lesser reach too). And it adds a high strength character to your party if you don't otherwise have one.
- Swine -- Once you're 8th level this (particularly when it's backed by the feat Split Hex) is a ton of fun, and effective too. Martial characters can't hold weapons, in fact any character drops what they're holding. Spell casters may not be able to cast spells with a somatic component (run this past your DM in advance so you're on the same page).

For spells I think you really want to consider flavor as well as tactical impact. So I'll list some of both.

1st
enlarge person
hermean potential -- a great spell when someone must make their saving throw(s), make a skill check, or hit a tough opponent (overlaps with Fortune hex there).
obscuring mist -- place this on top of enemy archers or spell casters. use it to sneak through an opening in the trees. cast it into a room full of enemies just as an ally opens the door.
sow thought -- this is a permanent effect. "that ogre doesn't care if I live or die, I'm not fighting for them any longer" "that witch looks trustworthy" "I think I saw movement over there, I should go investigate"
unbreakable heart -- counters fear & confusion. provides additional saves vs hostile control. a lot of value once you're no longer relying on 1st level spells.

2nd
blindness -- this just shuts down an opponent, can end an encounter or shift it in your favor quickly
euphoric cloud -- great battlefield control
glitterdust -- reveal the invisible and temporarily blind some of your opponents
vomit swarm -- a decent spell, since many opponents can't handle a swarm. and enormously fun.
web -- great control, and pairs well with vomit swarm: spiders

3rd
sleet storm -- blocks *all sight*, 1/2 movement
stinking cloud -- area effect nauseated
thorny entanglement -- reduce movement, modest damage, very likely to shut down enemy casters

[Northern Spotted Owl]

And the Summon Monster spells are of course terrific.

In one memorable encounter my witch and our wizard paired up to cast: Sleet Storm (blocks all sight) and Summon Monster: Giant Scorpion (tremorsense) into a room full of enemies just as another party member opened the door.

[thorin001]

What role will you be filling in the party?

[Toshy]

Prehensile hair is less of deal for me, since I can deliver all touch spells as ranged touch attacks via my spell deck.

I'll probably take mor of a support role (buffing/debuffing).

[Joynt Jezebel]

Toshy wrote:

I'll probably take mor of a support role (buffing/debuffing).

Then you should include the Fortune Hex. Probably early on.

You can only use it on each ally once/day but it is excellent while on and it is cackleable.

Iceplant is also a recommendation. Anything that tends to keep you alive is good. You can't buff or debuff if you are dead.

[thorin001]

Fortune is not as good as it looks. Once per round he can roll twice and take the better result. And the choice has to be made before the dice are rolled.

Evil Eye is mind affecting, so there are a lot of targets you cannot use it on. But it is a great general purpose debuff.

Healing gets a bad rap. The healing provided is relatively minor, but how many parties would turn their noses up at a wand of CLW with 5 charges per day? Also you can use it to hurt undead. Lastly it is great for healing NPCs that you do not want to waste resources on.

The ancestor patron is very good for a buffing witch.

[Joynt Jezebel]

thorin001 wrote:

Fortune is not as good as it looks. Once per round he can roll twice and take the better result. And the choice has to be made before the dice are rolled.

It has it's limitations yes and probably isn't as good as it looks at first blush.

But you are going to be Cackling anyway which keeps a collection of debuffs going. Once a Witch gets all this going most opponent groups are in deep trouble if not comically helpless as long as you can keep Cackling.

Fortune is still a significant buff and is improved by something you are usually going to be doing anyway.

I would take extra hex twice for fortune and slumber over precise shot and point blank shot.

[Northern Spotted Owl]

My take on good hexes:

Evil Eye is only fine. It softens up a target, but it also takes a round. Since combat is usually decided in the first 3-4 rounds, that's a lot.

Misfortune is almost always better, their attacks are worse and so are their saves. And it works on any target, where undead/constructs/swarms/mindless are a witch's weak spot.

Slumber is so good it's almost broken, so much so that some players/DMs avoid it. It steals the lime light. And it's mind-affecting.

Soothsayer/Protective Luck/Fortune -- These are terrifically powerful. Sure, fortune is only 1/day but you can either put it on one melee party member before each encounter or save it for when you suspect a big encounter is coming.

Flight -- You're a fool if you don't take this. Or at least your character concept better preclude it. :)

Swine (8th level or above) -- Not as powerful as Slumber, but no mind-affecting limitations. Also, it came out near the end of Pathfinder 1e's active production run so there aren't a lot of clarification. E.g. does it prevent somatic gestures or require some sort of roll against ... something? If someone is running, might they trip when their feet transform to hooves? Or are they now better at climbing?

Prehensile Hair -- Agreed, it's redundant for a Cartomancer.

[Northern Spotted Owl]

If you haven't cast Web on a hallway full of opponents and then followed it up with Vomit Swarm: spiders, well then you're just not getting the most out of your witch.

[Toshy]

Okay, as I had some time before the campaign begins, I was thinking through some options. This is all pure theory-crafting under the assumption that the campaign goes that far and my witch survives long enough for the following to matter at all.

So far I'm set with my cartomancer witch and a one level dip in harrower for flavor and the fun and very thematic blessing of the harrow ability.

I thought about going more into harrower for the other abilities, but since harrower only progresses my spellcasting, but not my hexes I think, I'll loose to much for it.

What I stumbled across is the stargazer prestige class.

It would advance my spellcasting AND stack with my witch levels for hexes. The additional stars domain, some Oracle mystery abilities and the sideral Arcana sound nice.
And a Varisian harrower, devoting herself to the cosmic caravan sounds flavorful as well. I might even talk with my gm about gaining the additional sideral arcana effects against demons, against aberrations instead.

One question though:

Mystery Magic (Ex)::

At 1st and 9th levels, the stargazer gains a hex from the witch’s list of hexes. His stargazer levels count as (and stack with) witch levels when determining the effects of hexes. In addition, the stargazer adds all hexes available to a shaman with the heavens spirit (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 40) to the witch list.

Does this mean the levels only stack for effects (meaning DC, duration, etc.), but not for qualifying for major hexes at witch level 10?

If so, it's probably less useful as I thought, but an option nonetheless.

Maybe something along the line as
Witch 10 (+x), to get at least one major hex
Harrower 1
Stargazer 6 (-x)

As Strange Aeons ends with level 17, grand hexes at level 18 are out of the equation anyway.

I would miss out some additional major hexes, but depending on how challenging the campaign will be for the group constellation, I might be able to go for more flavor than optimization.

Opinions/suggestions?

Edit
Additional question:
As my spelldeck replaced the witches familiar,I would get a familiar with stargazer, scaling with only my stargazer levels, right?

[Northern Spotted Owl]

You should look at which hexes you really want. I think these are the best of them:

- slumber
- flight
- misfortune (constructs, undead, etc.)
- cackle, to support misfortune
- ice tomb

Alternately, the buff hex build is very strong:

- protective luck -- does not have the 1/day restriction
- soothsayer
- fortune

By 10th level you have 5 hexes as a Cartomancer.

For your first question, the Stargazer does not advance your *witch level* and so does not get you to a major hex. You will want 10 levels of actual witch.

The key feature of a Cartomancer is Deadly Dealer.

- You can deliver touch spells at a *ranged* touch attack
- At 2nd level you get Deadly Dealer: Your cards do 1d4 damage, as if they were a dart, with a bit of bonus damage from Arcane Strike

So you'll want to prioritize your dex score. Here are some particularly nice touch spells from the witch list.

1st: Frostbite, Touch of blindness
2nd: Touch of idiocy
3rd: Bestow curse, Excruciating deformity, Trial of fire & acid, Vampiric touch
4th: Fleshworm infestation
5th: Curse of unexpected death
6th: none
7th: Bestow Greater Curse, Harm, Plane shift
8th: Irresistible dance
9th: none

On your Stargazer familiar question, yes that's how I read that. Your Stargazer familiar would only scale with your Stargazer levels.

[Melkiador]

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

Swine (8th level or above) -- Not as powerful as Slumber, but no mind-affecting limitations.

Also no save. It just works.

[Northern Spotted Owl]

Melkiador wrote:

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

Swine (8th level or above) -- Not as powerful as Slumber, but no mind-affecting limitations.

Also no save. It just works.

It's pretty terrific, at least past 8th level. But there is a save, note the parenthetic "(Will negates)".

Swine hex

Swine (Su) (Heroes of Golarion pg. 15): The witch can partially transform an enemy into a pig. The effects of the transformation are mostly cosmetic and do not change the creature’s size category or overall shape, but the affected creature takes a –2 penalty on Will saving throws for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s Intelligence modifier (Will negates). At 8th level, the affected creature’s hands (or paws) turn into hooves, preventing it from using claw attacks or taking any action that would require the creature to use its fingers.

[Northern Spotted Owl]

If a Cartomancer takes the prehensile hair hex they have hair with a strength matching their intelligence. If you throw your cards with your hair I would think you would get the corresponding str bonus to damage. You're only doing perhaps 10 damage, but I suppose that's better than 5.

[Melkiador]

Weird. I specifically double checked for that save. Must have rolled double 1s.

[I grok do u]

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

If a Cartomancer takes the prehensile hair hex they have hair with a strength matching their intelligence. If you throw your cards with your hair I would think you would get the corresponding str bonus to damage. You're only doing perhaps 10 damage, but I suppose that's better than 5.

"Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand."

No throwing cards with your eyebrows, unfortunately.

Parentheses getting everyone in the thread.

[Northern Spotted Owl]

I grok do u wrote:

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

If a Cartomancer takes the prehensile hair hex they have hair with a strength matching their intelligence. If you throw your cards with your hair I would think you would get the corresponding str bonus to damage. You're only doing perhaps 10 damage, but I suppose that's better than 5.

"Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand."

No throwing cards with your eyebrows, unfortunately.

Parentheses getting everyone in the thread.

Well spotted

[dunelord3001]

Just a bookkeeping note, racial traits like fey heart are completely unrelated to traits. They're very poorly named. And the fact that traits have a specific type cold race traits just makes it more of a CF.