Has Anyone Tried Magic Warrior Archetype?


Advice

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Ryangwy wrote:
I don't like how you give so many proficiencies via feats, and in ways that don't match how they're given normally via archetype. It's very jarring, looking at a PF1e relic kind of feeling.

Usually I sit on a draft for a week to get better perspective and tone it down. But I am in a hurry this time, because Noor Khan is already active in my games, with her five homebrew Magic Warrior feats. I have a plot worked out in which the 7th-level player characters will team up with Noor Khan and 8th-level visiting scholar Kassi Aziril against trouble that followed them to Nantambu. It will happen in next week's game session or the week after.

Ryangwy wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:

Mask Armor Feat 4

Your mask becomes armor. You are trained in light armor, medium armor, and unarmored defense. When you cast Don the Mask, the mask can transform to clothe you in explorer's clothing, leather armor, quilted armor, or hide armor for as long as you wear your mask. Removing the mask is still an Interact action, but casting Don the Mask again can make the armor disappear while masked. You may attach armor runes to the mask that become active when its armor appears.
Extremely awkward, nonscaling proficiency in armour when there's no reason why wearing a mask makes you comfortable wearing medium armour in the first place. Make it a bespoke armour that you can choose between the stats of leather armour or hide armour for but that uses your unarmoured proficiency, and maybe give it a free rainment rune.

That would be more magically elegant. I could scale it off the Mystic Armor spell. On the other hand, the mask does give a way to use actual armor runes instead of mimicking them with a scaling spell.

Nevertheless, Champion archetype gives light and medium armor proficiency, so gaining armor proficiencies from an archetype has happened before. And the PF1 magus Magic Warrior had light and medium armor proficiency, so I copied that.

Ryangwy wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:

Mask Transformation [one-action] Focus 2

Uncommon Manipulate Polymorph
Based on Magic Warrior Transformation, World Guide pg. 95
Requirements You are wearing your Magic Warrior mask.
Duration 1 minute
You transform into the animal from your mask. You transform into a battle form copying your mask's creature, following the polymorph rules. You gain the features and attributes in the creature's Animal Companion entry, except all the attributes are increased by 1, you keep your original hit points, and you do not gain the creature's Minion trait, Support Benefit, nor Advanced Maneuver. ...
Is there a reason why you went against the standard polymorph template (especially when animal form is right there) for this instead? It looks pointlessly messy when you could just make it untamed form.

Yes, I have a reason. The reason is similar to the difference between casting a Summon Animal spell and adopting an Animal Companion. The Summon Animal, Animal Form, and Untamed Form spells are a one-shot appearance of a different animal each time. Animal Companion and a Magic Warrior mask are about keeping to the same animal or animal form.

Furthermore, while Summon Animal gives lots of detail about the animals by referencing Monster Core entries, Summon Animal uses the same template for each animal except for the difference in their speeds and unarmed attacks. Animal Companions offer more individualism in the animals, making the choice of mask more significant.

Ryangwy wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
Magic Warrior Expertise Feat 6 ...
The last similar one got purged in fire, and honestly I really don't see why you need this if your primary combat is through a polymorph spell (you know... a regular one). Let the martials be martials and the casters be casters.

Is a Magic Warrior magic (caster) or warrior (martial)? The Ten Magic Warriors were apprentice wizards, except that Azure Leopard was known as a defender, Ibex was known as a healer, Shifting Frog was known as a ranger-like elf, Verdant Spider was known as a baker, and White Bull was known as an architect. And the archetype outright states, "You mix magic and martial prowess, following in the tradition of the Ten Magic Warriors of Old-Mage Jatembe."

A martial, or a gish who is half martial, needs their weapon proficiency to increase to keep up with the increasing AC of opponents. If I wanted the Magic Warrior to be entirely a shifter, relying totally on transformed unarmed attacks for melee combat, then I could have their morphed or polymorphed form increase in attack bonus instead, but as far as I know the original Magic Warriors were not shifters. I presume that some Pathfinder 1st Edition developer had the cute idea that a character who always wore an animal mask should embrace aspects of that mask, and a PF2 developer added a full mask transformation, but I have to handwave those ideas as more recent Magic Warriors discovered that they could do more magic with their masks than the originals could. I don't want their combat to always be through a polymorph spell. Maybe I should drop Mask Transformation.

Okay, a weakness in my design is that I am applying band-aids to an archetype developed in separate visions rather than forged as a unified concept. What unified vision should I have for Magic Warrior that does not make the character rely on polymorphing?


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I do like the idea of the mask itself granting one or more all the time buff spells.

Granting a pseudo-slot that scales via the Mystic Armor idea is genuinely a good one. It's both quite potent while technically being a luxury that could be replaced by runes.

I think you could go more off the norm to further encourage more "warrior" play from the casters. Focusing more on that core, yet hassle, needs for Strikes. Weapons, runes.

I honestly think that the main "starter" benefit of the mask and identity could be to grant both max R mystic armor and the below "warrior's weapon" idea.

Note that while this might seem a bit too good, the context is that we/I am trying to encourage a caster to actually take a few Strikes every now and then, and this just clears the baseline hassle.

If you leave weapon proficiency alone, then you even get to keep the archetype agnostic to function with both caster & martial base chassis.

Something to the effect of:

Warrior's Weapon wrote:

... When you perform your daily preparations, you may link your mask with a weapon befitting of your masked identity. This is your warrior's weapon, and establishing the magical link causes the weapon to disappear inside the mask.

Sometimes violence is unavoidable, and a magical warrior must be ready.
You can draw or stow the weapon from your mask as if it were on your person with an Interact action, or you may draw it from your mask as a free action when you roll initiative. For equipment that enhances unarmed strikes, such as handwraps of mighty blows, you can reach deep inside the mask to store or retrieve them. Retrieving handwraps restores the state they were when stored.

While it is often socially prudent for a pseudonymous warrior to keep weapons stored around others, that is not the only reason for doing so.
If you have refocused while your weapon was in the mask, it is empowered by the identity you have cultivated, and gains the benefits of the fundamental potency and striking runes up to your level.

This empowerment lasts for ten minutes outside the mask, pausing when stored. This effect can allow the temporary function of property runes.

Special: if your identity features a pair of weapons linked by doubling rings, both may be treated as a single weapon set, and gain compatibility at the cost of requiring both hands for the Interact.

I am a bit of a sucker for concepts that also help/fix the lore and wider world. Traditions / training like this ability can go a long ways to explain how non-heroes can fight in a world where crazy expensive magic weapon & armor runes seem to be mandatory.

So giving *the* "Magic Warriors" the ability to scale their weapons without the luxury of runes is right up my alley.

.

Back to design talk:

So the effect of this is that the magic warrior is only given the baseline prerequisites needed to even consider Strikes. No power attack or anything, just scaling fundamental runes.

I get the temptation to make this a feat, but imo it really needs to be a baseline freebie, likely on top of the "when masked, always benefit from max R Mystic Armor" idea.
If any caster archetype *should* grant it, it's the magic warrior. Things like shapeshifting into the masked animal make much more sense as a chosen specialty and obtained via feat.

If you are looking for something to spice that side of the archetype up, the feat could allow the polymorph to happen on initiative.
Think of it like Barb's rage mode. That kind of M Warrior chooses to fight as a beast as their primary weapon, and they should be enabled to do that without penalizing themselves with a 2A chunk every single combat. Especially not the most important first turn.

Alternatively, the focus spell could be 1A, allowing for a turn one of normal spell + change. Still uncomfortable, but more flexible than the [0 or 2A] version.

Yet another option would be to allow the M Warrior to persist in the animal form outside of combat indefinitely. Something like casting the focus spell as one refocuses to enter into a low-effort / stable sustain; one cannot get the FP back, but is able to travel in that form.
Rolling initiative would then begin the 1 min timer as the magic is stressed / exploration pseduo-sustain is dropped.

That would honestly be super balanced for a caster, as it's 1A to dismiss spells. One would be trading the animal exploration benefits & action benefit of pre-casting the form spell in exchange for locking your spells behind a 1A dismiss. A caster that cannot immediately cast spells when initiative is rolled is a hefty trade, imo.

And yes, it's super thematic and appropriate for the jungle nation's magical warriors to be able to traverse the land like this.
Honestly, I think most of us presume mid level casters / druids like that *can* sustain such polymorphing indefinitely in the lore, so it also reducing that gameplay/world dissonance is a nice bonus.

.

Any one of those three might make for a great rider to add to the animal form spell feat, and could make such a feat genuinely worth taking.

(And yes, I super support a high level ~14 ish feat that adds more side perks, with the main draw enabling spellcasting while polymorphed. Plenty of tables already rule that dragon form, etc, enable spellcasting, and this would at least put a RaW, if homebrew, means of accessing it.)


Mathmuse wrote:


That would be more magically elegant. I could scale it off the Mystic Armor spell. On the other hand, the mask does give a way to use actual armor runes instead of mimicking them with a scaling spell.

Nevertheless, Champion archetype gives light and medium armor proficiency, so gaining armor proficiencies from an archetype has happened before. And the PF1 magus Magic Warrior...

Note the PF1e Magic Warrior had that... because they were a magus. If you're opening it up to non-magus, let them use their own proficiencies, it's cleaner.

Also, the intention was the mask can hold the runes, yes. It can be done like all the ancestry feats that grant armour, with something like the rainment rune to give the disguising trick.

Mathmuse wrote:


Yes, I have a reason. The reason is similar to the difference between casting a Summon Animal spell and adopting an Animal Companion. The Summon Animal, Animal Form, and Untamed Form spells are a one-shot appearance of a different animal each time. Animal Companion and a Magic Warrior mask are about keeping to the same animal or animal form.

We already have tech for 'Animal Form but only this specific one', I beleive both Animal Barbarian and Red Mantis uses it. The issues with using an Animal Companion are manifold - adjusting attributes mid-combat, which nothing in PF2e does, the fact ACs are balanced around being a 3rd action, meaning they fall behind compared to polymorph spells, that most of them have their identity bound in their actions which you don't make available, giving a PC mount...

Anyway, if regular animal form doesn't satisfy you, I think it's better to give each of the ten known masks a avatar-style template (hp scaling, senses, unarmed attack, Speeds, base AC/saves, important skills) and tell GMs to use them to make custom masks. Have the spell build in the scaling for hp, ac, saves and skills. As it stands, I believe the spell falls off hard.

Mathmuse wrote:


Is a Magic Warrior magic (caster) or warrior (martial)? The Ten Magic Warriors were apprentice wizards, except that Azure Leopard was known as a defender, Ibex was known as a healer, Shifting Frog was known as a ranger-like elf, Verdant Spider was known as a baker, and White Bull was known as an architect. And the archetype outright states, "You mix magic and martial prowess, following in the tradition of the Ten Magic Warriors of Old-Mage Jatembe."

... Which is why the PF1e archetype was for magus only!

I am really iffy of giving master weapon so cheaply, because it doesn't cost them legendary spellcasting (which every PF2e gish has to take on the chin). Like, if you insist, I'd rewrite it to be one feat that has prerequisite of master spellcasting and expert in unarmed, that gives a +2 status bonus to your Strikes while wearing the mask. Absent a buffer, this does keep you on level, and martials aren't likely to take a 20th level feat to get a +2 status bonus (and if they do, good on them I guess).


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Random thought, but if the intent here for some people is to make the Magic Warrior play like a Magus, would that not be a great opportunity for a Magus class archetype?


Teridax wrote:
Random thought, but if the intent here for some people is to make the Magic Warrior play like a Magus, would that not be a great opportunity for a Magus class archetype?

The intent behind Magic Warrior is regional favor about the Mwangi Expanse. According to the Archives of Nethys, which is great about tracking sources, the PF1 Magic Warrior magus archetype was first published in Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Intrigue in May 2016 and later republished in the hardcover Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Adventurer's Guide, released a year later. The archetype was ported to PF2 in the Pathfinder Lost Omens: World Guide, released in July 2022.

Lost Omens World Guide, Introduction, page 6 wrote:

Overview

Heroes aren’t born, they’re forged: forced by extraordinary circumstances to rise above and shaped by the world they inhabit.

This book is a guide to that world. In its pages, you’ll learn about the heart of the Pathfinder setting, known as the Inner Sea region, from the towns and cities your heroes call home to the wild frontiers and monstrous lairs where they’ll risk everything in search of fortune and glory. The information presented here provides players with a sense of the setting as a whole and is perfect for both fleshing out existing character concepts and inspiring you when you’re not sure what to play. Is your wizard a necromancer from haunted Ustalav, raised to battle the undead armies of the Whispering Tyrant, or a young student at the Arcanamirium in Absalom, the City at the Center of the World? Perhaps you’re a daring priest from the burning deserts of Qadira, blasting manticores and genies with the blazing light of the sun goddess Sarenrae, or a troll-hunting warrior from the icy Lands of the Linnorm Kings. Regardless, here you’ll find the rich details you need to give your character the perfect backstory, as well as new backgrounds, gods, feats, spells, and other rules to help you customize your ideal hero.

Paizo offers new character options in their Golarion sourcebooks, perhaps for more immersion than just reading about the regions and perhaps to lure non-GM players to buy the books. The Magic Warriors were more representative of the entire Mwangi Expanse than other possible archetypes, because they traveled the entire region. In contrast, the Pathfinder Lost Omens: Character Guide, released two years earlier in October 2019, offered the Magaambyan Attendent and Halcyon Speaker archetypes, which were tightly focused on the Magaambya Academy.

I am fairly sure that the developer's intent for the Magic Warrior was to illustrate the Mwangi Expanse rather than add another class archetype to magus. The PF1 developers David N. Ross and Ross Byers had a choice of making a Magic Warrior its own class (too important for a regional tradition), a prestige class (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Intrigue did that with Taldor's Lion Blade), or a class archetype. They chose class archetype and the magus class was easiest to adapt to the concept.

As for my intent, I added classroom courses to my Strength of Thousands campaign, because my players wanted to seriously roleplay as students, I invented a course for every skill. For the first semester, Spring 4721 AR, I had the inventory manager Xhokan teach inventory security for the Thievery class, but really I needed a rogue to teach future Thievery classes in later semesters. So I made a new teacher, Noor Khan, based on real-life British resistance agent Noor Inayat Khan. Most teachers at the Magaambya Academy have a half-page description but no stat block. I found that the courses let me add teacher-supervised field trips to the campaign, which required a stat block for the teacher. Winter semester was time to give Noor Khan her stat block and the Magic Warrior archetype seemed a flavorful way to add magic to an Emerald Boughs (i.e., Magaambyan spy) rogue.

I also like to study game design, and an exercise such as repairing a broken archetype is practical experience in game design. Teridax's thread Multiclass dedication feats could be improved in a number of ways brings up notions that can be explored in a practical exercise. Ryangwy's objections to my latest ideas reveal the difficulty of balancing a gish class ("gish" refers to some early D&D foes who had both martial and spellcasting abilities, and became the nickname for martial-spellcaster hybrids: What A D&D "Gish" Character Build Is & How To Make One).


Mathmuse wrote:
I am fairly sure that the developer's intent for the Magic Warrior was to illustrate the Mwangi Expanse rather than add another class archetype to magus.

I'm not really seeing why these two things are mutually exclusive. Would a flavorful Magus class archetype not be an awesome way of illustrating the Mwangi Expanse?


Teridax wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
I am fairly sure that the developer's intent for the Magic Warrior was to illustrate the Mwangi Expanse rather than add another class archetype to magus.
I'm not really seeing why these two things are mutually exclusive. Would a flavorful Magus class archetype not be an awesome way of illustrating the Mwangi Expanse?

Class archetypes are not as fun as general archetypes.

The PF1 class archetypes came out of the game design standards of Paizo re-inventing Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition as Pathfinder 1st Edition.

Multiclassing was beloved by players, but it could lead to abusive combinations in Dungeons & Dragons. Furthermore, high-level 3rd EditionD&D often had so-called dead levels that offered nothing interesting except +1 to a few numbers, which made a switch to multiclass tempting at those levels. Thus, Wizards of the Coast put penalties on multiclassing in D&D 3rd Edition. Multiclassed characters would earn fewer experience points. (In retrospect, that was bad design.) Yet to allow the fun of multiclassing when it was not disruptive, Wizards of the Coast developers invented ways around the penalties such as Prefered Classes for various races. For example, elves could multiclass to wizard without penalty. Prestige classes were another workaround. They were deliberately designed for multiclassing and had no penalty, but they had strict prerequisites that restricted their use. Sometimes a prestige class was designed to fit with only one base class.

Paizo removed the multiclass penalties from Pathfinder 1st Edition and tried to design each class to simply encourage players to stick to one class to enjoy the high-level benefits. This left prestige classes in an awkward place. Players still wanted to play variants on classes like the prestige classes offered. So in the PF1 Advanced Player's Guide Paizo developers offered class archetypes. They let the players play a variant without having to multiclass.

The tight math in Pathfinder 2nd Edition was incompatible with classic multiclassing. Instead, multiclassing was by general archetype, based on a PF1 optional system from Pathfinder Unchained called Variant Multiclassing. Since these PF2 archetypes were intended for multiclassing, the developers saw little reason to force an archetype to stick with a single class as a class archetype.

I said "little reason" rather than no reason, because some exceptions appeared. Flexible Spellcaster and Wellspring Mage from Secret of Magic (September 2021) each required a specific style of spellcasting from 1st level and altered that spellcasting at 1st level before the player formally took the archetype. Elementalist from Rage of Elements (August 2023) had similar requirements. Spellshot from Guns & Gears (October 2021) was the first true PF2 class archetype. It required the Gunslinger's Way of the Spellshot as a prerequisite, so it was only for Gunslingers. That opened the gates for later class archetypes in War of Immortals (October 2024) and Divine Mysteries (January 2025).

Magic Warrior could be a class archetype in the same sense as Flexible Spellcaster, Wellspring Mage, and Elementalist. Give it a prerequisite that the base class must offer martial weapon proficiency and spell slots at 1st level. Then the character would already have magic and be a warrior as a Magic Warrior and the archetype would simply offer a few tricks with the Magaambyan mask. The only classes that fit that are bard and magus, because warpriest cleric does not gain martial weapon proficiency until 3rd level. A rogue like Noor Khan could never become a Magic Warrior, so I would have to give her a Wizard Multiclass archetype instead, less flavorful for a spy. I refer to see alchemist Magic Warriors, barbarian Magic Warriors, champion Magic Warriors, druid Magic Warriors, exemplar Magic Warriors, fighter Magic Warriors, etc., implying that Magic Warriors can come from all walks of life.

In summary, class archetypes perform a narrow modification of particular class features. Magic Warrior is not modifying particular features; instead, a magus class archetype Magic Warrior would be piggybacking on an existing gish class as a shortcut to obtain both magic and martial prowess. It would narrow the flavor of Magic Warriors.


Mathmuse wrote:
Class archetypes are not as fun as general archetypes.

As much as I do criticize certain archetypes in 2e, especially class archetypes, I don't think this is an absolute truth. The Wellspring Mage is a really fun class archetype, as is the Runelord even with the clarification/nerf they received to their staff spells. It is absolutely possible to create a class archetype that is fun and flavorful, and if you're trying to replicate the flavor of a Magus here, I feel that may be the better way of achieving your goal, instead of the current mess of proficiencies and stat replacements you're suggesting in a bid to essentially transplant a Magus onto some other class.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Note that the original 2e Magic Warrior prerequisites required that they have the ability to cast focus spells already. You removed that requirement. (and I understand that impacts your Rogue build) but by starting with that requirement, it gives you potential to incorporate any number of classes, which might get it automatically via normal choices, or might have gotten it via an investment of a class feet. It also would be something you could achieve via an Archetype dedication to get focus spells as well.

I think one risk of your Archetype as you have it written is that most Archetypes let you Dabble into a certain direction. That direction is often defined in the dedication, starting you off in that way. In this case, you have a dedication feat that honestly, first impression doesn't seem overpowered, and the various feats in an of themselves many mostly not seem to out of scope for what an archetype feat might grant, (other than I believe there were questions about if an Archetype should grant Master attack proficiency in martial weapons.)

However, in this Archetype, you have it granting, ala carte things feat by feat from the entire buffet of spellcasting, martial weapons proficiencies, and martial armor proficiencies, etc. For better or worse for instance, the Fighter Archetype only granted weapons proficiencies, and not armor ones, and an different (sentinel) archetype was created which seemed to grant Armor proficiencies if you didn't' want to go the Champion route. This wider smorgasbord/range of abilities might push this archetype's power potential too big, or make it a riskier allowance.

It would almost seem like if it were to be limited to Magus, it should be a Hybrid Study, which seems like it wasn't an obvious decision on how to build such a hybrid study. I agree, that by making it an Archetype Dedication, it made it more widely available for a variety of classes. I'll confess, however, not my mind has challenged me to wonder if I could come up with something that would be buyable as a reasonable Magus hybrid study.

Some questions, would it be reasonable to have the feat that grants armor proficiency to instead make the mask be able to replicate/form an equivalent to said armors, or to absorb a suit of magical armor of the supported types. Which would appear on you when the mask's abilities are activated. The supported armors the mask enables, would treat you as being proficient in them. This way, you may not have the full proficiency, and ability to be proficient in the armor without your mask, but in warrior mask mode, you effectively do. It might be a strange distinction, but might be worthwhile, both for game balance as well as flavor.

Did you build your rogue teacher, with free Archetype in mind, and do you allow the free Archetype feats to not be bound by a multiclass archetype bought via a regular class feat? Could you have your Rogue be somewhat Arcane Trickster-like and have gotten a druid or wizard multiclass feats? Blessed One, I believe would give them a focus spell in one feat, but I am not certain it is the flavor you are looking for. I'd think that since the players are able to be various classes + a spellcaster archetype, it makes sense to consider such for the teachers too.


Teridax wrote:


As much as I do criticize certain archetypes in 2e, especially class archetypes, I don't think this is an absolute truth. The Wellspring Mage is a really fun class archetype, as is the Runelord even with the clarification/nerf they received to their staff spells. It is absolutely possible to create a class archetype that is fun and flavorful, and if you're trying to replicate the flavor of a Magus here, I feel that may be the better way of achieving your goal, instead of the current mess of proficiencies and stat replacements you're suggesting in a bid to essentially transplant a Magus onto some other class.

I think that, given the Magic Warrior wants things that doesn't really replace anything in the Magus cleanly (like, what feature would you drop for the mask?) it can also be a general archetype that goes better on a Magus than any other class.

I do agree the archetype should not be inherently giving anyone the magus proficiencies.

Mathmuse wrote:


I refer to see alchemist Magic Warriors, barbarian Magic Warriors, champion Magic Warriors, druid Magic Warriors, exemplar Magic Warriors, fighter Magic Warriors, etc., implying that Magic Warriors can come from all walks of life.

See, the problem with giving proficiencies out of line with standard archetype feats is that you don't actually achieve that - the sheer power of granting master weapons with such a minimal investment is that it actually centralises things on a specific set of classes - casters, to be precise. In fact, due to how you set up the shapeshift, Magic Warrior is, as it stands, kind of useless for non-casters. If your vision is to make it seem that Magic Warriors can come from all walks of life without shooting themselves in the foot, you may need to consider some serious changes.

Also, yes, a rogue Magic Warrior should be better at stabbing than a animist Magic Warrior, it doesn't make sense otherwise?

Sovereign Court

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I think we have fairly limited evidence for what a magic warrior "must" be. It mainly boils down to wearing a fancy animal mask which makes it harder to use divination magic on you.

But this is contradicted by the later Magaambyan archetypes and Strength of Thousands writing in which people don't always wear their masks and don't keep their masked and unmasked identity separate. The masks are described as allowing you to more fully express your complete identity, particularly for ceremonial purposes.

My take on it is that the magic warrior archetype can represent a historical time when the 10MW fought the King of Biting Ants and they needed to hide their identities to prevent the King from going after their families etc., but that after he was defeated this wasn't so important anymore. It's a canonical point that armies don't make it to Nantambu because the Tempest-Sun have very sufficient firepower.

So most Magaambyans use the "new" mask practice of using the mask to express themselves. The "old" tradition of using the mask to disguise still exists, and might be useful to agents operating further afield in hostile territory.

The strict rules about wearing the mask all of the effin' time I think just need to go. That might be the propaganda, while in reality you can just be minding your business as average Joe, step around a corner, slap on the mask and be completely unrecognizable. That would play the archetype more into a vigilante/superhero role. I think that's got a lot of potential for Magaambyans interfering in countries like Mzali where operating an open identity is not viable.

---

Another take on it is that the King of Biting Ants might have been really dangerous with mind control. If he knew who you were and could just target you by name, he might be able to dominate you from afar and wreak havoc. I mean, he's able to control vast swarms of insects at long distances too, he could probably handle some people too.

So then the mask goes a bit more in the direction of anti-control effects. Maybe treating the results of saves against effects that give the controlled condition as one step better.

---

So for me, the point of the archetype isn't to turn into an animal, or to make you a martial. It's about being able to be a resistance warrior against evil overlord wizards. Pretty agnostic about your underlying class. Maybe the point of using a fanciful, weird-color animal mask is to present an "impossible target". There is no such creature as an "azure leopard", therefore it's really hard to target someone wearing an azure leopard mask.

And just as a fringe side benefit, you can lean into some of those abilities and do a bit of shapechanging, but that's more a side effect of leaning into a weird identity than the main point.


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Perpdepog wrote:


In fairness, those feats came out considerably later than the Magic Warrior archetype did; Magic Warrior was from World Guide, while those feats are from the final volume of Strength of Thousands.

That kind of makes it worse, doesn't it? The Magic Warrior archetype already existed and no one bothered to let it have access to any of the new feats referencing the magic warriors.

Grand Lodge

Squiggit wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:


In fairness, those feats came out considerably later than the Magic Warrior archetype did; Magic Warrior was from World Guide, while those feats are from the final volume of Strength of Thousands.
That kind of makes it worse, doesn't it? The Magic Warrior archetype already existed and no one bothered to let it have access to any of the new feats referencing the magic warriors.

Wow knows? They might give it more feats with an updated World Guide?


Ascalaphus wrote:

My take on it is that the magic warrior archetype can represent a historical time when the 10MW fought the King of Biting Ants and they needed to hide their identities to prevent the King from going after their families etc., but that after he was defeated this wasn't so important anymore. It's a canonical point that armies don't make it to Nantambu because the Tempest-Sun have very sufficient firepower.

So most Magaambyans use the "new" mask practice of using the mask to express themselves. The "old" tradition of using the mask to disguise still exists, and might be useful to agents operating further afield in hostile territory.

Another factor about the Magic Warrior tradition changing over time is the vast amount of time. The Old-Mage Jatembe and the Magic Warriors founded the Magaambya Academy in -2832 AR, The Strength of Thousands adventure path starts in 4721 AR. That is 7553 years. In that amount of time the Magic Warrior tradition could have been lost, restored, altered, and reverted over and over again. The only anchor points across the millennia are the stories and the masks.

Ascalaphus wrote:
So for me, the point of the archetype isn't to turn into an animal, or to make you a martial. It's about being able to be a resistance warrior against evil overlord wizards.

Ah, evil overlords. Peter Anspach, one of the authors of The Evil Overlord List, had been my boss 20 years ago. He was a good boss. He no longer updated the list, but he still supported the website.

Resistance warrior against powerful enemies of the Mwangi Expanse is a good theme.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

So for the original (Magus) Archetype, and the Second edition one, the archetypes started with non-detection related effect being granted-related to the mask, followed by some animal-transformational abilities tied to the mask, followed by non-detection related abilities, and the original one granted some Druid spells to the magus what seemed sort of Halcyon-esque keystone.

I really like what you mentioned about the origin and the importance of hiding your identity as a resistance fighter. An aspect that might become less important in future generations if not fighting as widely controlling an adversary.

I liked how you pulled some of what was created for the Vigilante for your implementation of the Magic Warrior, but wonder if it would be better to leave out some of the granting of specific martial and spellcasting proficiencies out of its ending scope.

You make transforming from one identity into the other much quicker, an even in combat action, vs the Vigilante's requirement to take no less than a minute. But you limit the capability to do it to requiring you to have the mask.

I'm tempted to suggest that part of the dedication involve you creating it as a magic item, which would require 10gp in materials, and would become a 20gp magic item, usable only by you, or an inheritor defined by you in the future. (could not be 'stolen' and used, but leave open for passing the item to a child or student in the future, potentially)

This also gives you a potential cost if your 'identity' does become compromise, recrafting a mask may allow you to regain the identity protection abilities/separation.

I will note that the identity protection provided by the Vigilante dedication is far more powerful than the ones in either of the other magic warrior archetypes. But it also was created to solve a specific problem that would potentially not necessarily be a problem in all campaigns, but would really need to be that powerful to work in such cases when it would be useful. This said, I wonder if it is possible, or would be advisable to weaken the starting identity protection from the dedication, to leave more to give later on, but I'm not certain. For instance do we have to completely separate the two identities, or can at a low level one would you be able to have it prevent any divination or recall knowledge to cross between the two identities unless it was a critical success, which would be dropped to a regular success and potentially limited to vague information. This would give room for stronger protections to be enabled at a higher level, such as the 6th level feat. Which could in addition to granting the Nondetection spell on yourself, would fully separate your two identities (if not widely known) from being able to be magically tied together. The nondetection spell being able to prevent even your active identity from being detected.

Otherwise, you could look for other animal transformation and/or identity related abilities you could add to the dedication to give it more. Some things that come to mind includes the ability to mask a minion's identity. (Minion Guise) Ability to potentially speak with animals of your mask kind, or even perhaps to call/summon one of your chosen animal, might some other useful abilities.

Perhaps something akin to Hidden Magic from the Vigilante Archetype to hide your magic items, might contribute to this Archetype.

Potentially being able to have a secondary mask/identity seems potentially useful.

If you wanted a 'Nod' to the old ability for the old Magus archetype to gain druid spells in the end, you could have a high level feat that allowed a spellcasting member of the dedication to choose either Arcane or Primal, and allow them to pick up to one spell from each level, and replace one spell from their existing repertoire if spontaneous or add said spell as a spell known, if a prepared caster.

For lower levels as an ability, you might allow a feat, if they have casting cantrip ability, to swap out or maybe it would be fine to simply add one to their currently prepared (or repertoire) cantrips for a specific cantrip chosen from either Primal or Arcane list, instead of their normal list.

The dedication should also probably count for some of the prerequisites for the various 20th level mask feats for the from the SoT AP.

I think all of these sorts of things would seem to add to the flavor, grant useful items, and likely stay within most power levels appropriate for dedications. Thoughts?

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