GMing question with a wizard starting at higher level.

[will_asher]

How do you handle creating a character with variable spells known (wizard, witch, alchemist) starting at a higher level? How many (if any) spells known do you give them beyond the minimum?
There isn't any official rule about this, is there?

[Joynt Jezebel]

I believe the official rule as to this is the character gets the number of spells their class will give them.

For example witch starts with 3 + int mod 1st level spells and all cantrips.

At each level they gain 2 spells of their choice of a level they can cast.
[This means when they gain the level].

Spells from their patron.

So if you start a witch at level 3, they will start with-

3 +int mod level 1 spells.

2 more level 1 spells [level 2]

1 1st level patron spell [gained at level 2]

2 2nd level spells [level 3]. Technically the witch can take 1st or 2nd level spells here. Nobody does.

If the player want access to more spells, they can buy a scroll with the spell on it.

The rules are similar for other arcane casters.

The rules as written don't adjust for a number of spells likely to have been found adventuring unless you count buying scrolls.

[Java Man]

There are standard costs for renting spellbooks and copying spells into one's own. I charge wizards, alchemists etc that out of their gear budget if they want more than what leveling gives for free.

[Joynt Jezebel]

You find out something every day.

Where do you find those costs Java Man?

[Toshy]

Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.

Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on the following table. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.

0 => 5gp
1 => 10gp
2 => 40gp
3 => 90gp
4 => 160gp
5 => 250gp
6 => 360gp
7 => 490gp
8 => 640gp
9 => 810gp

As a DM depending on which level the characters start I would probably award a wizard/witch/alchemist a number of spells to add to their Spell-/Formulae Book or familiar for free and additional spells for the cost of copying the spell (without the renting fee).
The wealth by level excludes the value of items (Potions, Wands, Scrolls) consumed while reaching the according level, which would include scrolls used to copy into their own assortment.

As a player, RAW you would only start with the number of spells listed in the class entry, but ask your DM how he handles it, as you might see a lot of table variation there.

[Belafon]

I would probably charge him a flat price per spell of 1.5 times the scribing costs (as given by Toshy above) to have the spell in his spellbook. That's an easy compromise between the possible costs.

Over the course of a campaign there are several ways he could have gotten additional spells.
1) Found a wizard selling access to copy a spell - scribing cost plus half scribing cost.
2) Found a scroll and copied it into his spellbook - just the scribing cost
3) Bought a scroll and copied it into his spellbook - scribing cost plus the cost of the scroll.

Buying a scroll is by far the most expensive, and therefore also the rarest, while finding a scroll is cheapest. So I'd take the middle ground and assume the median cost is somewhere around the borrowed spellbook cost.

[Joynt Jezebel]

There is also killing a wizard and taking his spell book. Or is there some reason that does not work?

[Mysterious Stranger]

If it is for a PC, I go with the 1.5 cost to scribe it into the book. If it is for an NPC Hero Labs has some prewritten spell books that I often use for this especially if the NPC is not a significant character and I don’t want to spend a lot of time creating them.

[Tom Sampson]

There is also buying or finding a spellbook or scribing a spell that you already have prepared, which normally only matters if you lost your spellbook. And then there is independently researching a spell, which is usually used to let players develop new spells, but can also be used as a way to obtain preexisting spells without anyone else.

And we should probably mention that a Blessed Book removes the material costs of scribing spells into the book. It's unsurprisingly a popular item for people who want to scribe large amounts of spells into their spellbook, as it tends to pay for itself in the long run.

Normally for extra spells you just pay the costs Belafon mentioned, unless you have a Blessed Book.

[Melkiador]

This is similar to the question of if you allow higher level characters to start with items they crafted themselves, getting that discount to their wealth by level.

I don’t think there is an official answer, so you just have to check with the GM.

[Dragonchess Player]

Tom Sampson wrote:

Normally for extra spells you just pay the costs Belafon mentioned, unless you have a Blessed Book.

Note that even with a blessed book, a character still has to pay the "fee for the privilege of copying spells." The book only eliminates the cost of scribing.

[will_asher]

Thanks for the input.
In this case, I am the GM, though not a very experienced one, and I was wondering if there was a usual way to handle this. The consensus seems to be to decide on a cost (based on different ways of obtaining new spells that Belafon mentioned) and charge them for it out of their starting gold. So I think I'll do that.

[Azothath]

The RAW Process...

so starting out with your starting INT figure out your initial number of spells (all Zeroth then 3+ Int bonus First). Then add 2 per Spell Level gained with each level(check feats & traits as the FCB isn't worth it).

Make sure your Spellcraft has 75% level in ranks so you can take 10 on any learn checks and succeed.

Now it's time to go shopping. Add to each spell level going for (12-16)First, (8-12)Second, (8-12)Third etc. You might only go to 6 on your highest Spell Level.
Spells scribe cost using NPC access is 15*((SplLvl)^2) gp. Normally for found scrolls, books, intimidated wizards, etc it is 10*SplLvl^2.
Add it up.
The cost comes off your PC gp total or WBL.

At 10th or 11th Wiz level you'll buy a blessed book and sell your spellbooks at half what they cost.
As noted NPC access is 5*SplLvl^2 gp.

Lastly, you can learn and scribe spells you can't cast (higher spell levels). You need to make the Spellcraft check (usually easy).

I've posted several detailed wizard builds. You can look at them to select exactly which spells you scribe.

The above does not take into account adventuring or GM gifts. As the cost varies from 10 to 15 *(SplLvl^2) a GM can ballpark it at 12.5*. With a Blessed Book use 6.25* along with the item cost.

[Tom Sampson]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Tom Sampson wrote:

Normally for extra spells you just pay the costs Belafon mentioned, unless you have a Blessed Book.

Note that even with a blessed book, a character still has to pay the "fee for the privilege of copying spells." The book only eliminates the cost of scribing.

Indeed. I probably should have been more explicit in stating that the fee for copying spells is separate from the scribing cost.

[Azothath]

the process is actually cheaper and easier without the Blessed Book(where effectively the scribing is paid up front). Toting around some books isn't difficult at 10th+ level.

Just track the spell pages per book (book=100pgs. 1pg for zeroth and SplLvl pgs for others) as most wizards will need 4-7 books (7 books at 14 spells per spell level).

Just Arcane Mark each book so it is easier to find if it gets pilfered. You can inscribe "magus tributum ratio libri" in each.

[Dragonchess Player]

The blessed book does become cheaper than regular spellbooks and scribing costs eventually. The character will just need to be at a pretty high level (15th-16th+) with multiple higher level spells beyond the minimum gained from the class levels (or if the character is taking prestige class levels, which do not gain the "free" spells added to the spellbook from wizard levels).

[Dasrak]

Break-even for the Blessed Book has less to do with your character level, more to do with how much downtime you have.

An 11th level Wizard has a WBL of 82,000 gp. If you craft it yourself, a blessed book costs 6,250 gp. If you have a month of downtime (pretty common for a mid-campaign interlude) you can easily justify crafting a blessed book and going on a spell-learning spree. It's not uncommon during long spells of adventuring for a Wizard to build up a backlog of scrolls and spells he's acquired but hasn't had time to learn, so when you do finally get that nice stretch of downtime you may already have all those spells lined up and the blessed book is just pure cost savings.

On the other hand, if you're in a campaign that is experiencing constant action then you face the problem that learning new spells can take practically an entire day of downtime. A 6th level spell requires 7 hours of downtime to learn, so if you don't have long stretches of downtime then it can take quite a while before a blessed book has paid for itself and it's probably not a priority for you. You might level up a few times before the blessed book pays off under these circumstances.

So the value and break-even of a Blessed Book really comes down to downtime in your campaign and what you expect in the near future. An 11th level Wizard with lots of downtime on their hands will find it a profitable investment, a 15th level Wizard who is in a frantic adventure may not. Though I will say if your GM doesn't give you any signfiicant downtime opportunities for a 5 level stretch then they're being a bit unreasonable...

[Tom Sampson]

When it comes to cost-effectiveness, making it yourself with Craft Wondrous Item is typically the way to go.

As for downtime concerns, usually a Wizard uses a Ring of Sustenance or similar before long, which cuts down on sleeping time enormously. That opens up time to scribe spells into your spellbook on adventuring days, provided that you have a safe resting space. If you have 6th level spells, you have ways to ensure that. There is also the Cypher Script feat if you regularly find yourself needing more time to write spells into your spellbook, especially if you want to scribe multiple spells each day.

[Joynt Jezebel]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is getting access to exactly the spells you want. Beyond the spells your class gives you I mean.

So far as I know there are no rules for it so it's up to the GM.

So if you want a particular spell you need to find a arcane caster who has it and is prepared to share it for a modest sum of money. And there are gazillions of spells on the wizard list.

It seems to me the most commonly used spells will be most readily available, you are not going to have much trouble finding mage armor as everyone wants it. But most spells on the wizard list are used very rarely. And it is going to get progressively harder to find spells of higher levels as casters who can learn them become fewer.

[Tom Sampson]

I beg to differ, because at higher levels you have access to spells that make it easier to find the right people and teleport to them. It's at the early levels that you are restricted to whatever you can find in the local environment. At the high levels you can move through the planes and teleport to any and all markets to purchase whatever you'd like.

[Joynt Jezebel]

Perhaps yes.

But it is still something the GM has to adjudicate somehow. The actions you suggest would normally be roleplayed and have costs.

[Java Man]

I only allow spellbook rental for copying if the sought after spell is within the casting limit for the settlement. Then I set a base availability % based on the rarity (also legality or social acceptability if applicable).

[Joynt Jezebel]

That is the sort of thing I was talking about Java Man. And it sounds very sensible. Rather a lot of work for a GM however.

[Mysterious Stranger]

One thing I have not seen mentioned is spell books from defeated wizards. If you kill or otherwise defeat to the point you are taking all his equipment taking his spell book can give the wizard in the party a lot of extra spells. This is better than finding scrolls, because most wizards will have more spells in their books than they do in scrolls.

[Azothath]

in the OP's case, they are in Character Generation and starting at higher level is a gray area with GM oversight(thus the OP). In my experience it's figure out the cost then get GM approval of the spells from the PC's class spell list. Any rejections just get replaced with something acceptable to both parties.

I did say you can optionally average base('found' spells) and NPC access cost to simulate adventuring. The trick is you'd have to do everybodies magic items that way to be fair and then likely exceed your starting limit or WBL. So full cost coming from starting gold is the base method.
Scribing is just a gp tax on the class.

During Play the Purchasing Magic Items chart or PF1 PFS Guide purcase limits (using 4.5*(Lvl-1) PA) can be used. Using the charts during character generation can be an issue of Game Fairness in either direction (just something to use judiciously and be mindful of and I think most GMs do that). Many games start in the metropolis Absalom....