During a given round that a summoned creature receives their action ( as they're actions happen on the casters initiative) does it matter about the order in which both the caster and the summoned creature move.
Examples:
If the summoner casts a summon monsters spell does the character have to cast their spell, then move first before the summoned creature receives their actions?
OR
Can a summoner cast the summons spell, let the summoned creature make it's actions, then the summoner make their move action?
As the GM I don't see any overall difference between the two ways of handling the given initiative, but our group asked for opinions from others as to how they see this initiative play out and if it actually affects game play in doing it either way.
That’s an interesting question.
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.
”Immediately” implies that it interrupts your turn to do its actions and then you continue your turn. On the next round, I’d assume that your turns are separate but on the same initiative. So you could choose which goes first but your turns would be self contained.
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
In order to give the summoned creatures, order you have to be able to communicate with them. Talking is a free action so controlling the creature will be a free action. There is no reason you instruction cannot be to attack after I do X, assuming you can in fact communicate with the summoned creature. That usually means you need to have a shared language.
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Can a summoner cast the summons spell, let the summoned creature make it's actions, then the summoner make their move action?
Essentially, yes. Or you can (possibly) finish your turn.
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.
Immediately means “interrupting whatever else is happening.” If you share a language with the summons, you can order them to delay until after you finish your turn instead.
I’m assuming you are referring to the summoner class using their standard action summon ability. Ordinarily summon monster is a 1-round cast, which means the summoned creature(s) appear and act right at the start of the caster’s next turn. Which means you can just say “I delay until after the summons acts.”
Edit: Ninja’d
Can a summoner cast the summons spell, let the summoned creature make it's actions, then the summoner make their move action?Essentially, yes. Or you can (possibly) finish your turn.
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.Immediately means “interrupting whatever else is happening.” If you share a language with the summons, you can order them to delay until after you finish your turn instead.
I’m assuming you are referring to the summoner class using their standard action summon ability. Ordinarily summon monster is a 1-round cast, which means the summoned creature(s) appear and act right at the start of the caster’s next turn. Which means you can just say “I delay until after the summons acts.”
Edit: Ninja’d
The question was really about any given round to which you have a summoned creature under your control, not only once summoned, but as the rounds continue as well. As that creature moves on the summoners round we as a group wondered if there would be any balance issues on dividing actions during each given round.
example.
Summoner casts a standard action spell, summoned creatures use both their move and standard actions, finally the summoner does its move action.
I personal believe in giving all the freedom to do so (within the rules that apply) and don't see any balance issues coming into play as all involved follow the same give rules.
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Hmmm. We have to start with the assumption that you can communicate with the summoned creatures. Otherwise they take their default actions, which is to attack the closest target ASAP. If you can’t communicate you can’t tell them exactly when in your turn to act.
RAW: the caster can move, then ready a standard to happen after the summons act. But that limits you to the readied action. Can you just take a standard, let the summons act, then move? I don’t think that is supported directly in the rules. Is it balanced? It’s a slight advantage. You could, for example, cast haste on your summons then wait for them to attack bad guys before deciding which way to move. But you are right, not a big deal.
I hadn't considered this issue before, but in general I'd let (probably require) a summon to go after the caster's turn is finished, despite it saying "acts immediately".
In any event, after the initial appearance turn of the summon, they won't interrupt or split the casters turn, unless some readied action shenanigans come up, so it's only unclear on the initial summoning turn.
The question is really, can the summon interrupt the summoners turn? While the rule say "immediately" I would argue it's a bit ambiguous. Outside of readied actions and immediate actions which are limited in scope, we don't have a lot of rules for "other things that interrupt turns".
I guess you could interpret the summons initial turn as as all immediate actions, but that's outside the bounds of what immediate actions can normally accomplish.
Still, if a player really insisted on it I suppose I would allow it because while it doesn't make sense to me, it probably isn't that big a deal in terms of how combat will unfold.
Summoning spells have a casting time of 1 round. That means it is a full round action and comes into effect on your next turn just before the beginning of your turn. So, if you cast the summoning spell in round 1 the monster appears in round 2 just before you go and can act when it appears. If you can communicate with the creature (fee action) you can give it orders including to delay until you have gone. After the first round the normal rules for initiative apply. If the monster acted when it first appeared its initiative will be just before the caster, if it delayed it will go based on that.
People are paying too much attention to the word immediate. Immediate has both a game mechanics meaning and a common English meaning. Technically the game term is an immediate action, not just immediate by itself. The description in summon monster looks to be using the common English meaning not the game term.
If you are using an ability that allows you to summon as a standard action, then your character should be able to act normally. One thing to keep in mind is that both the caster and the summoned monster can delay actions. So as long as the caster can communicate with the summoned creature, they can act in any order they want.
Summoning spells have a casting time of 1 round. That means it is a full round action and comes into effect on your next turn just before the beginning of your turn. So, if you cast the summoning spell in round 1 the monster appears in round 2 just before you go and can act when it appears. If you can communicate with the creature (fee action) you can give it orders including to delay until you have gone. After the first round the normal rules for initiative apply. If the monster acted when it first appeared its initiative will be just before the caster, if it delayed it will go based on that.
People are paying too much attention to the word immediate. Immediate has both a game mechanics meaning and a common English meaning. Technically the game term is an immediate action, not just immediate by itself. The description in summon monster looks to be using the common English meaning not the game term.
If you are using an ability that allows you to summon as a standard action, then your character should be able to act normally. One thing to keep in mind is that both the caster and the summoned monster can delay actions. So as long as the caster can communicate with the summoned creature, they can act in any order they want.
TO get into the weeds a little bit involving the communication with the summoned creatures, I have another question. If what you are saying is how it plays out during the caster's initiative from the beginning of round (1) to the end of round (2) and the creatures go before the caster's second round begins, how would directing them be a free action? I ask this because in how the rules read, and it actually isn't the caster's turn until the summoned creatures have done their actions " A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell." So in essence you would need to use an immediate action for the first round to direct the creatures as it truly isn't the caster's initiative at the time of the summoned creatures appearing, but prior to. I say this as you can only cast one spell per round, (except swift action spells) so the spell would have to go off at the very end of the first round. Now if that is the case, would the creatures receive their full movement and attacks during round one?
A full round action for a spell plays out differently than a full round action for melee combat, as you do all your attacks on your initiative while in combat, but must wait till prior to your next move for a spell. So within the initiative order of things the melee character goes on round (1), as per the initiative chart, yet the caster though still within their first round doesn't go until you are on round (2) as per the actual chart.
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table 10–1. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
So, the way I interrupt what is happening is that you cast the spell in round 1. The summoned creature appears just before your next turn as your turn is starting. The summoned creature gets to act on the beginning of your turn before you do, but it is still your turn so can use a free action to communicate with it. The only way another character could act before the summoned creature is if they had a readied action specifying the summoned creature appearing as the triggering action.
The rules for spell taking a full round to cast specifies you act normally after the spell is completed. This is what allows you to cast a spell in round 2. It is a clear example of the general rule about casting two spells in one round being overwritten by the specifics of the rules of casting a full action spell.
I love the game, but this is clearly a hiccup that can and has caused problems at our table, and looking at the boards others as well, thanks for your thoughts.