We're starting new characters at Level 6. With full wealth by level, we have 16,000 gp to spend. ABSOLUTELY NO MAGIC (or alchemical) items are allowed, but special materials and masterwork gear are.
It's been awhile since I played a more martial character where gear mattered. I'll be using a bastard sword as my primary weapon, and I can use medium armor and shields. I'm wondering, should I go for Mithral or Adamantine for my armor?
I know at higher levels AC can't keep pace with attack bonuses, but I don't know which way the math breaks at level 6. Mithral will give me better AC with lower weight, but Adamantine provides the DR. Also wondering, are there other special armor materials I should be considering?
Should I get a shield? Buckler so I can cast, or light or heavy shield? I'm playing an Inquisitor, so spells are a factor here.
For weapons, I want to try and cover as many DR/Resistance/Regeneration/Special bypassing substances as possible. Everyone pretty much knows about silver, Adamantine, and cold iron. Are there other common materials I'm overlooking? I'm also interested in more esoteric monster vulnerabilities. For instance, are there creatures that you need to hunt with wood, or gold, or glass, etc.?
All tactical advice, number crunching, or esoteric bits of trivia appreciated. Thanks.
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Generally speaking, apart from specific characters (like a dwarf stalwart defender), mithral is usually a better choice for (medium) armor to increase the Max. Dex and have it treated as light armor (no movement penalty). There's a reason a mithral breastplate (or mithral kikko) is so common.
A buckler only adds +1 AC (without magic), so unless there is a specific reason (relic hunter, etc.) it's probably not necessary. It might be worth considering after gaining a couple of levels (and access to magic vestment).
For weapons, you will probably want a masterwork composite bow (with a Str bonus equal to the character) with a selection of arrows. Cold iron is only twice the cost of normal arrows, so make those the "standard" and add several alchemical silver and a handful of adamantine. You should also probably make sure some of the arrows are blunt versions (especially a couple adamantine ones; some constructs require both adamantine and bludgeoning to bypass DR).
For melee weapons, you should probably look at a weapon with a 18-20/x2 critical (or possibly 20/x4) and the material should probably be adamantine, unless the campaign is going to be focused on enemies that need other materials to penetrate DR (alchemical silver vs. devils and werecreatures, cold iron vs. demons and fey, etc.). An alchemical silver masterwork battle aspergillum, along with a cold iron masterwork dagger and a mithral dagger, for backup weapons should cover most of the bases.
You really should have magic equipment at this point. What does your GM expect you to spend all your money on? I don't know if you can spend all your money without magic items. A +1 weapon will be about 2300 gp, and +1 magic armor will be at least 1150 gp, and a +1 shield will be another 1150 gp. There are many magic items that boost your stats by +1 ranging from 1000 to 2000 gp, or belts and headbands that boost your ability scores by +2 for 4000 gp.
Mithral can be used as a material for weapons. It counts as silver, so you don't need to worry about the penalties for using alchemical silver weapons.
I would recommend mithral armor for mobility reasons. If you can't reach your opponents quickly, or get in position to protect your spell casters, you don't matter in melee.
Ranged weapons are a must. A composite bow will be your best option.
I'm not sure if you can cast spells with a weapon and shield combo. You might want to use a 2 handed weapon instead so you could hold the weapon in 1 hand when you want to cast spells. Or pick spells that don't need somatic components.
I did some reading. I recommend that you use a buckler as your shield. You can use ranged weapons like a bow or crossbow with it without penalty. You can cast spells using your buckler arm but then you lose your AC bonus from your buckler for the turn.
Alternatively, you could wear a light or heavy shield, in which case you will need to drop your weapon or shield to cast spells or to use a bow or crossbow. Dropping a weapon is free action, but picking it back up is a move action. Dropping a shield is worse because it takes move action to drop and 2 move actions to pick up and ready the shield. Picking up an item provokes an attack of opportunity.
Thank you both for the input.
@Dragonchess Player: I appreciate the breakdown on different backup weapons. For the armor, mithral seems to be the concensus so far. I'm going to pick some up. Is there ever a point where the DR of Adamantine becomes better than the mobility of the mithral? There seems to be an assumption in higher levels that IF the enemies get to swing at you, you will get hit.
My main weapon is locked in on the bastard sword. This is a flavor choice; plus I'm a notoriously low roller, so crit-fishing (even with expanded range) doesn't do well for me. Because of my build, I will be using fire spells as my primary ranged option. The tactician/hunter/slayer (not the classes) part of my character dictates I carry extra weapons for when sword or flame won't do the job though. With the money we have, should be easy to "Always be prepared".
@OmniMage: Thank you, especially for the second post. "Shoulds" aside, the GM wants a low magic (on the items side) campaign to start. I think we've had too many "magic-mart" campaigns in our past, so he's trying to return us to a real sense of excitement about magic gear. So, for now, no magic and no alchemical items. I'm not worried about spending out my wealth though. That's part of why I'm looking into special materials, which have been okayed. Between some mithral armor and a small arsenal of masterwork weapons, the gps are going to go quick.
I thought the buckler was probably the right choice. I just don't normally play martial/tactical characters, so I wanted some extra input. Is there any reason NOT to use a buckler as long as you have the proficiency? . . . .*reads* . . . A slight penalty for if/when I swing my bastard sword two handed . . . meh.
I will be picking up a composite bow, but only as a weapon of last resort. Play style wise, this guy is slash and burn, preferably burning slash. So, until we come across fire immune creatures with elevation advantages, the bow is a decoration. I got access to a fire cantrip, plus more fire spells than the basic Inquisitor list via my diety, so most of the time I can lob fire if somethings not close enough to cut.
Thanks again. Are there any other special/exotic materials worth considering? I don't have a Paizo specific example yet, but I'm thinking about how some shapeshifters were vulnerable to gold instead of silver in WOD, celestial Bronze and Stygian Iron from Percy Jackson, wooden stakes in some vampire lore, etc. . . . This might merit its own thread.
I like mwk living steel bucklers (255gp) if you expect enemies with metal weapons.
Mithral breastplate 4200gp to stay mobile
Use resiliency judgement if you want DR/magic
Weapons:
Adamantine for your bastard sword 3035gp
Mwk cold-iron morningstar 316gp
Mwk composite longbow 400+100/STR mod
Mix of arrows of cold-iron, silver, etc
Backup mithral dagger 502gp
A backup cold-iron reach weapon is good to have available as well. Mwk cold-iron longspear is 310gp.
Bane and judgements will also help overcome DR if not bypass it.
Which domain/inquisition you choose and if you take an archetype may change some of optimal choices.
Other:
Combat trained horse/other mount
Appropriate kits
Could probably hire a couple of guards/mercenaries
I wouldn't rely on lore from other RPGs or fiction. World of Darkness vampires are very different from DND/Pathfinder vampires. One could write a book listing the differences.
OmniMage wrote: I wouldn't rely on lore from other RPGs or fiction. World of Darkness vampires are very different from DND/Pathfinder vampires. One could write a book listing the differences. I get that. I wasn't saying I'm working with non-Pathfinder lore. My point was, since I don't know the more esoteric lore for Pathfinder, I was using other source material examples for the same type of thing I'm looking for within the Pathfinder lore.
I grok do u wrote: I like mwk living steel bucklers (255gp) if you expect enemies with metal weapons.
Mithral breastplate 4200gp to stay mobile
Use resiliency judgement if you want DR/magic
Weapons:
Adamantine for your bastard sword 3035gp
Mwk cold-iron morningstar 316gp
Mwk composite longbow 400+100/STR mod
Mix of arrows of cold-iron, silver, etc
Backup mithral dagger 502gp
A backup cold-iron reach weapon is good to have available as well. Mwk cold-iron longspear is 310gp.
Bane and judgements will also help overcome DR if not bypass it.
Which domain/inquisition you choose and if you take an archetype may change some of optimal choices.
Other:
Combat trained horse/other mount
Appropriate kits
Could probably hire a couple of guards/mercenaries
Thanks so much :)
One thing about the character I forgot to mention is his antlers (natural gore attack). I will be custom crafting tine spikes out if different materials to always have a fall back ( unless someone chops them off :/ ).
My build is rather feat starved with all the racial feats and teamwork feat pre-reqs I have to take, so I'll probably forgo the spear. I won't be getting to take advantage of extra AoOs or crits much (the weakness of Flaming Burst really annoys me). Anyway, when I do need reach/range, that will mostly be up to my fire spells. With my feat array, aside from burning weapons and special materials, my tactics will be geared towards basic positions and some fun bits with demoralize and (maybe) feinting.
I'm an Ifrit Imolator. There's a lot of fun fire flavor to the class, but the loss of bane is a pure mechanical/damage blow. For my build, a painful but necessary sacrifice. I just wish Flaming burst upped the base fire damage over Flaming by at least 1d6. Burst weapons seem to only be good for crit-fishers, and this build is not that. C'est la vie. Even if this build isn't optimal, it should still be good.
Also, @grok, what's "living steel"?
Sysryke wrote: Also, @grok, what's "living steel"? Special materials Living steel wrote: Some trees suck up potent minerals through their roots the same way others draw water from the ground. Though these trees blunt saws and axes used to hew them and shrug off fire, they eventually succumb to time or the elements. When properly harvested, these fallen trees produce nuggets of a metal called living steel. This glossy green metal slowly repairs itself. An item made from living steel repairs damage to itself at a rate of 2 hit points per day, or 1 hit point per day if it has the broken condition. Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of living steel.
Armor and shields made from living steel can damage metal weapons that strike them. Whenever the wielder of a metal weapon rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll against a creature wearing living steel armor or wielding a living steel shield, the item must make a DC 20 Fortitude save or gain the broken condition. If the weapon already has the broken condition, it is instead destroyed. Living steel cannot damage adamantine weapons in this way.
Living steel has 35 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 15.
First, you should ask your GM how 'non-standard' this game is going to be: Starting at 6th level (when +2 items should be coming into play) with no magic items is a bit odd, and if the plan is to give you level appropriate gear in the first couple of sessions, then your initial gearing isn't really worth worrying about too much, while if the plan is to allow you to upgrade your starting gear, you should probably hold onto some of your starting gold to pay for it.
Secondly, you should ask your GM about crafting: Your character could have taken Craft Magic Arms and Armor at 5th level and enchanted some +2 gear in a few days between hitting 6th level and actually starting play.
Thirdly, special materials can be found listed here: https://www.aonprd.com/SpecialMaterials.aspx
Defensive Recommendations:
Mithril Agile Breastplate for 4,400g: Treated as light armor for non-proficiency purposes, +6 armor, +5 Dex Cap, -1 ACP (0 ACP for climbing and acrobatics) for your best armor and mobility combination.
Mithril Kikko for 4,250g: Treated as light armor for non-proficiency purposes, +5 armor, +6 Dex Cap, 0 ACP if you really don't want an ACP.
Masterwork Chain Shirt for 250g: +4 armor, +4 Dex Cap, -1 ACP if you want to save your starting gold.
Sunsilk Clothing for 6,000g (and change): DR 2/Bludgeoning
Offensive Recommendations:
Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) + Weapon Versatility feats to bypass DR x/Bludgeoning or DR x/Piercing, but you can't fit this in very well if you needed your level 3 feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword).
I am a fan of the Silversheen special material (not the consumable magic item of the same name) for swords, but there is some debate as to whether it has the same damage penalty as Alchemical Silver.
Remember that you have the Bane class feature, which will allow you to bypass (for a few rounds at least) Silver and Cold Iron DRs once you start wielding a +1 weapon and Adamantine DR once you start wielding a +2 weapon (see Combat / Special Abilities / Damage Reduction).
For aligned DRs, you have access to the Align Weapon spell.
Taja the Barbarian wrote: First, you should ask your GM how 'non-standard' this game is going to be: Starting at 6th level (when +2 items should be coming into play) with no magic items is a bit odd, and if the plan is to give you level appropriate gear in the first couple of sessions, then your initial gearing isn't really worth worrying about too much, while if the plan is to allow you to upgrade your starting gear, you should probably hold onto some of your starting gold to pay for it.
Secondly, you should ask your GM about crafting: Your character could have taken Craft Magic Arms and Armor at 5th level and enchanted some +2 gear in a few days between hitting 6th level and actually starting play.
Thirdly, special materials can be found listed here: https://www.aonprd.com/SpecialMaterials.aspx
Defensive Recommendations:
Mithril Agile Breastplate for 4,400g: Treated as light armor for non-proficiency purposes, +6 armor, +5 Dex Cap, -1 ACP (0 ACP for climbing and acrobatics) for your best armor and mobility combination.
Mithril Kikko for 4,250g: Treated as light armor for non-proficiency purposes, +5 armor, +6 Dex Cap, 0 ACP if you really don't want an ACP.
Masterwork Chain Shirt for 250g: +4 armor, +4 Dex Cap, -1 ACP if you want to save your starting gold.
Sunsilk Clothing for 6,000g (and change): DR 2/Bludgeoning
Offensive Recommendations:
Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) + Weapon Versatility feats to bypass DR x/Bludgeoning or DR x/Piercing, but you can't fit this in very well if you needed your level 3 feat for...
Thanks very much for your contribution:)
GM is playing things a bit mysterious for now. I'm unclear if his restrictions are world/story based, or if he's just trying to simplify things or cut the power a bit since we're not starting at level 1. I'm not too worried about the numbers since this is a home game. Our stat arrays are beyond heroic, so the currently missing +2s are compensated for. With the exception of spells and class features though, all magic item access is cut off, even crafting feats. I had already asked, as I'm trying to color right to the lines without crossing them. For now, me as Inquisitor and our Paladin will be the only ones playing with even temporary magic gear.
Thanks for posting the equipment links. Can I find weapon and armor non-magic mods (like "Agile") in the same place as special materials or on a different page? The kikko sounds interesting, but the Sunsilk clothing is potentially awesome. Can it be worn and used with armor, or is it the same slot?
As to weapons and feats. I'm getting Bastard Sword proficiency from my deity. The rest of my feats are tied up in other things. As I said above, I had to sadly give up bane for the Immolator archetype. It's a straight damage/power loss, but I needed the fire abilities for my concept. I was leaning towards adamantine for the sword, but I will have to give silversheen a look. So far I've only had the opportunity to go through the special materials from the original player's guide. I still have a lot to explore.
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When a GM says 'no magic items' that immediately makes me want to play a samsaran diviner or wizard with a level in varisian priest to leverage that bias.
Armor: generally mithral kikko or celestial armor if the creature's Dex is okay to great. Otherwise adamantine or odd choices.
Shields: usually a don't care as they come on or off. Some shield builds want specials for shield spikes/attacks. A buckler or quickdraw shield is nice.
Weapons: 2hnd/reach, 1hnd/lgt & shield, thrown, ranged, monk/styles and/or TWF... feats & resources force you into one so a flexible weapon like bastard sword gives you options. Cestus is good. Steel kunai and obsidian daggers, cold iron morningstar, lucerne hammer, sansetsukon are classics.
Materials: cold iron, elyz bronze, cryptstone, blood crystal, adamantium are the usual choices.
Thanks for those suggestions Azothath!
I noticed Mithral didn't make your list, any particular reason? Also, isn't celestial an armor enchantment . . . . . or, did you mean celestial Mithral?
Just in general, aside from cost, is there any time that Alchemical Silver, Silversheen, or any other "as silver" material is a superior choice to Mithral?
Partial answer to my own question. Silversheen will do less damage just like other silver weapons compared to Mithral, but it's rust proof. Anything else?
Does Elysian Bronze count as regular bronze like Mithral counts as silver? Do the various *****glass materials count as mundane glass if a creature has a vulnerability?
Celestial armor is a magic item, not a special material. I think. Stat wise, its a little bit better than +3 mithral chainmail, especially in max dex.
there was a big argument back in the day as to what material composes celestial armor... lol... yeah... it is just a named magic item of "special" material. PFS didn't allow upgrades into it which created some consternation.
Some luddites were flabbergasted when I showed bonded objects skirt the material requirement for upgrades.
Elysian bronze is what it is, a bronze but its own thing. Same with Obsidian being a glass. Hopefully your GM has some common sense and technical knowledge but you can't take Reality and Science too far as it's a Game with its own descriptive system.
A fine example is Obsidian counting as Glass for the Fext is detailed in its description, "When reduced to 0 hit points by anything other than a glass weapon or an obsidian weapon, a fext is not destroyed,but instead becomes unconscious. Additionally..." notice they used two terms and did not equate the two.
I think mithral makes a fine thematic/stylistic weapon but... practicality comes into play too as resources are limited and PFS limits some things. Magical bonuses overcome special materials in the Game so choose wisely. Silversheen and Alchemical silver IMO fail for various practical reasons.
Ah. All still good info, but I failed too mention something relevant. My group plays almost exclusively home games, so PFS rules/limitations will never be relevant for me. As a home game, obviously we can do pretty much whatever we want house rule-wise, but we try to stay close to the standard game rules to facilitate balance, fair play, and mechanical support.
So, to be clear, if there's a creature that is vulnerable to Bronze or Glass weapons, it's not RAW that Elysian Bronze, or Glassteel will fit the bill? Hopefully a GM might allow it as RAI (or just rule of fun), but it's not RAW.
Comment - I use PFS as core advice since it has a LOT of play testing (far more than RAW in Home Games) and it worked without going crazy for 10 years thus it is a centric conservative perspective without the broken/poorly written stuff (PFS is a well tested 'official' campaign WITH open docmentation, so it makes a well defined home campaign base). Sure, I think you should add back in some crafting and customization as that is what Home Games are about.
What special materials are best is going to depend a lot on your characters build and the campaign. A mithral breastplate is great for a character with a high DEX but for a low DEX character it may not be the best. If the campaign will have a lot of undead spiresteel may be a better material for a lower DEX character.
For weapons consider mithral instead of silver. It overcomes DR as if it is silver but does not reduce the damage.
Thanks for that tip. At least for now, I have the common DRs covered by my custom tine caps. My character has antlers and a gore attack, and I have various metals on the 8 separate tines. I worked with my GM to create a custom chart for this attack, so I can't just cheese that I always have the correct material on one weapon/attack.
I have one tine each of: adamantine, aberrant alloy, bone, bronze, gold, glass, mithral, and cold iron. The placement of each of these is locked in, and is impossible to change without hours of advance notice (so never in combat). Depending on the placement of the relevant tine, I have anywhere from a 10% to 50% miss chance, of that tine actually making contact on a successful gore attack. I can reduce the percentages by 10% if I take a -4 to the attack (like trying to do non-lethal damage with a blade). If I want to guarantee I hit with the correct tine, then I have to take called shot penalties anywhere from -4 to -14. If I get a nat. 20, I can skip the chart. Since none of my items are magic yet, half the tines are fragile and subject to breaking on a nat. 1. All subject to GM adjustment if this ends up being too strong, but I spent numerous resources to make this custom weapon.
After all of that, while all of the recommendations I received are going on a wishlist, I ended up choosing a material for my bastard sword and armor that serve a utility power over straight offense or AC boosting. I'm currently wielding a Masterwork Blood Iron Bastard Sword, and matching Masterwork Blood Iron Chain Shirt. The combo gives me a glorious intimidation boost, plus a few other situational perks. I lead-lined both to get a bit of extra damage and defense, but until we get access to magic items, I'm rolling with an AC of 19 instead of 21. Hopefully I will live to not regret that choice.
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