Turning the wizard into the fighter of arcane


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

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After having read a lot of these discussions, I figure I'll jump in here and mention that many of these discussions about different ways to add content/rebalance existing content have been thought about and 3rd party products have been developed in (partial) response to these sorts of frustrations. I'm over on Infinite, so that's where I know the products best, but if anyone wants to look at already-published additions to the Wizard class, here are 3!
- Wizards+; there's a good chance people here already know this one, it's recently released by Team+ and adds a wide variety of new content to the class. As typical for Team+, it's mostly not focused on rebalancing existing content, but instead about adding new ways to play the class. This includes new feats, theses, and schools - but also a class archetype to introduce some almost animist-like casting to Wizards, and Deliberations, which replace your arcane bond. There are also some rebalancing changes at the end of the book. It's a really fun introduction of new content!
- Arcane Accoutrements; the debut book from Three Rooks Books, this one also focuses on adding a variety of new content for the wizard class - I really like the sword binder arcane thesis, personally. It's got more of all the normal wizard options, as well as some magic items, plus an extra Deliberation using the rules from Wizards+!
- Wizards Refocused; this is the one I wrote, which has a slightly different focus than the other two. There's still new content - a bunch of new class feats, especially focused on trying to introduce some of that academic flavour into wizard, a new thesis, and a Deliberation, but then there's also an archetype to let other classes get some of the nerdy stuff if they want to, and then pretty substantial rebalancing of existing content - I introduced a new ability all Wizards get (Expand your Education) to try and add some academic flavour, as well as to make up for the less flexible schools in the Remaster. I also rebalanced all of the existing theses to try and ensure they each have a fun niche and are more comparable in power to the strongest option available at the moment.

If 3PP isn't the stuff for you, feel no pressure to look at them - but if you're invested enough in wizards to be 3 pages deep into a forum discussion, you might also be interested enough to give a read of how some 3rd party publishers have given the wizard class a bit of a revamp.


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Easl wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
I think it's both good and desirable. Now, is it the best possible solution? Certainly not. But perfect can be the enemy of good. It's certainly good enough to stop most of these discussions.

I would bet you money it wouldn't. The "wizard" name is too powerful; it's a mirror for many roleplayers and they won't be happy unless that specific word matches the image of what they want in their mind. The player who envisions their character as a spontaneous casting "wizard" wants the name associated with spontaneous caster. The player who envisions their character as a loremaster "wizards" wants the name associated with loremaster class abilities and feats. We hear exactly this, most recently with the kineticist. 'I want an all day blasting wizard.' 'Okay, look at kineticist.' 'No, it has to say wizard on the tin otherwise it's not my all day blasting wizard.'

On top of that, there's the powergaming aspect. I expect some players would not be happy unless the wizard class gave them the game dominance early edition D&D wizards had.

Wizard disappointment is a much a matter of player high expectations as it is mechanics. Mechanically, I'd bet a blaster wizard results in about the same rounds-to-kill as a blaster anything else.

This is not true.

The main drive behind problems with the wizard is playing other PF2 caster classes.

Why is the bard so good? Why does the druid have amazing focus spells they can use all day? Why does the cleric have massive extra healing? Why are the sorcerer feats so much better?

This is the problem with the wizard. Most don't have a problem with the casting. Legendary casting is legendary casting, Exactly the same for all the classes.

But the main argument for the wizard is they have all these spell slots. They can cast more than anyone else. How good are all these spell slots when they are locked into the same spells you can't change very quickly except with one thesis? How good are all these spell slots when you have a limited number of actions per turn and every caster works under this same limitation?

So in a fight if you can only get off 3 spells, so can any caster. You only have enough extra spell slots for maybe one extra fight, while the other caster classes have useful cantrips and focus spells to go all day, fight after fight.

Even if as someone like Superbidi argues that most focus spells aren't are good as spell slots, they are good enough for the weaker battles so you can shine in the harder battles using your spell slots. This allows a good focus spell caster like a bard or druid to get by in easier fights with focus spells and then nova in the big fights.

Wizard is just straight slots. Then on top of that casters like the druid or bard have better armor options and more hit points on top of more desirable main caster stats.

That's the big problem with the wizard. Not this desire for omnipotent power, but this feeling that the wizard isn't as fun and doesn't have as many fun builds as other caster classes with equivalent casting power.

I'm not even sure what criteria they are using to balance when they give the bard Legendary casting, 3 slots per level, absolutely amazing feats, better armor choices, better weapon choices, on top of at level 20 being able to cast from every tradition at least one spell.

Then you play the wizard with six hit points, Legendary casting, a limited school slot and 3 slots, no signature spells, no spontaneous casting, only one thesis that allows them to change spells per day, you're paying more money for your spells to build a spellbook, and no good focus spells to speak of.

Why do people keep pretending wizard players want more power? They don't. They want a more fun to build and interesting class. Right now, it's pretty darn lacking compared to other PF2 caster classes.

I don't even compare the PF2 wizard to the PF1 wizard. None of the classes are as powerful as their PF1 counterparts, not even the fighter who did insane weapon damage. I do compare the wizard to other PF2 caster classes. When it comes to building a wizard, boy, they are boring and lacking.

Why would I build a wizard when I can build this really interesting bard or druid or sorcerer with better feats and more options?

With a PF2 Remaster Sorcerer, I can make this sorc with anoint ally and explosion of power then blow up using a focus spell or bloodline spell.

Druid I can shapechange or drop lightning all day.

Bard I'm boosting the entire party all day while casting.

Mr. Wizard gets some more scrolls that he still has to draw and use and others can buy with the same action cost as spells and often a worse action cost than some focus spells and cantrips.

It doesn't make the wizard feel all that great. Everyone casts as good as the wizard and their build options are better.

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