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Way back when DRAGON Magazine was still a print publication, one of the "Ask The Sage" articles (whose answers were considered official!) included a remarkable question about Planetouched: Do Planetouched races, as [Native] Outsiders, enjoy full proficiency with simple and martial weapons?
"The Sage"'s answer was the simplest I'd ever seen him give:
Yes.
Considering they're often weaker than Core races by the standard of the Race-Point system, that might not be as overpowered as it may sound to some (and don't get me started on Tengu getting easier access to Elven Curve-Blades than actual Elves do! :P).
Admittedly, the above citation was in the context of D&D 3.5, BUT it was a Paizo publication, and most importantly, the Pathfinder rules on this matter remain an extension of 3.5. Note also the exception to resurrection rules that would make it clear this entry is meant to apply to [Native] Outsiders.
It has been argued since that the Ganzi's "Weaponplay" alternate feature is an exception that would prove the rule to the contrary, BUT I find it easy to believe that might have simply been an oversight on the part of a writer who was unfamiliar with/had forgotten this seldom-discussed, but in the absence of anything to trump it, canon detail. Note, furthermore, that the book the above feature was in was one of the later publications (meaning a higher chance the writer was someone with less experience, I forget whom it was), and that feature goes beyond mere proficiency anyway (and in a major way worth the price of admission on its own, so maybe the mentioning proficiency was just to be thorough!).
yes and No. for normal player option races it's no.
And reason is, if you read the outsider type info in the beastry it say:
"An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
- Darkvision 60 feet.
- Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
- Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. "
for a player's race the creature entry is the one that explain what you get as playing these races.take for example the info for Oread character (from the beastry's section about oread, scroll down to the end at'Oread Characters').
In there some of the above is written (like the 60 ft darkvision) and some are not. and the GENERAL rule of the outsider's traits say that you go by the specific info if it's say differently. the info for player character races doesn't include proficiency in all of them weapons so it doesn't gain them.
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Traits
An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
Oread Characters
Oreads are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Oreads have the following racial traits.+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma: Oreads are strong, solid, stable, and stoic.
Darkvision: Oreads can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Spell-Like Ability: Magic stone 1/day (caster level equals the oread’s total Hit Dice).
Energy Resistance: Oreads have acid resistance 5.
Earth Affinity: See above.
Languages: Oreads begin play speaking Common and Terran. Oreads with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following bonus languages: Aquan, Auran, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Ignan, and Undercommon.
The Ored (and other native outsiders) have racial traits, as defined by their entry.
Oreads are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Oreads have the following racial traits.
Can you expand on why that is an issue?
I really think this is an oversight in Pathfinder, but I'm not seeing any rules that override the outsider rules. "otherwise noted" implies a conflict or outright negation of what's listed in the type. Both sets of abilities are compatible, so nothing was "otherwise noted".
Compare to the wyrwood race.
Wyrwood Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma: Wyrwoods are quick and calculating. As constructs, wyrwoods do not have a Constitution score.
Construct: Wyrwoods have the construct type.
Normal Speed: Wyrwoods have a base speed of 30 feet.
Small: Wyrwoods are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty on combat maneuver checks and to their Combat Maneuver Defense, a +2 bonus on Fly checks, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Darkvision: Wyrwoods can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Wyrwoods have low-light vision.
Languages: Wyrwoods speak Common. A wyrwood with a high Intelligence score can choose from the following: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc.
Traits
A construct possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
No Constitution score. Any DCs or other statistics that rely on a Constitution score treat a construct as having a score of 10 (no bonus or penalty).
Low-light vision.
Darkvision 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Immunity to bleed, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Cannot heal damage on its own, but often can be repaired via exposure to a certain kind of effect (see the creature’s description for details) or through the use of the Craft Construct feat. Constructs can also be healed through spells such as make whole. A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.
Not subject to ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, energy drain, or nonlethal damage.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).
Not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less.
A construct cannot be raised or resurrected.
A construct is hard to destroy, and gains bonus hit points based on size, as shown on the following table.
Construct Size Bonus Hit Points
Fine —
Diminutive —
Tiny —
Small 10
Medium 20
Large 30
Huge 40
Gargantuan 60
Colossal 80
Proficient with its natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with any weapon mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with no armor.
Constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
Do the traits in Construct not apply to the wyrwood, eventhough they aren't listed in the wyrwood description?
The Undine monster entry seems to suggest the native outsiders get proficiency with martial weapons.
https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Undine
It is a cleric with the water and charm domains and proficiency in trident. There is no deity with both a favored weapon of trident and the charm domain.
So, not only do those races "technically" have martial weapon proficiency, but it appears to be the intent as well.
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Response from James Jacobs (in the rules forum!)
They do not automatically gain proficiency wiht all martial weapons; as 0 HD outsiders, their weapon proficiencies are determined solely by their class levels. This works the same as 0 HD humanoids, or with 0 HD creatures of ANY monster type (so far, there's only 0 HD humanoids and outsiders, but that could change some day).
There have been a few threads in the 15 years since then saying "please actually put this in the FAQ" but it was always marked as "no response required." Including on his original post.
Of course, James has previously claimed to not be a "rules guy". And it's pretty hard to refute the undine cleric's trident proficiency.
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Of course, James has previously claimed to not be a "rules guy". And it's pretty hard to refute the undine cleric's trident proficiency.
Totally agree with "James is not a rules guy." The difference is that in this case he was posting in the rules forum about design principles. (He stopped posting in the rules forum that year). And despite 10 people marking his post as a FAQ candidate, it was marked as "No Reply Required."
"NO REPLY REQUIRED": Paizo had a bad habit of treating the FAQ mainly as a place to post errata. How Frequently a Question was Asked didn't really play into it. They often used "No reply required" even for posts with 10+ FAQ flags because "it's obvious to us."
As for the cleric, remember that the first few Bestiaries mostly avoided Golarion-specific references. The entry for the Tarrasque doesn't even mention Rovagug or the Pit of Gormuz. The clerics are generic, not tied to a specific deity.
I marked in bold more then one line in my answer. make sure you read the first one before asking 'why not'.
here it is AGAIN:
"unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry"
the auto proficiency or any other trait the outsider get in the GENERAL outsider type info depend on that the SPECIFIC creature of said type doesn't note a difference. and in plaintouched (as i pointed out with the Oread) it DOES. it call out SOME traits that outsiders get (like 60 darkvision) while removing others (like the proficiency) hence anyone who want to use the traits in the type to claim they SHOULD get the proficiency need to comply with the entire text they use -not just the pretty shinny bit they like.
and the entire text include the part that say that if the creature specifically change anything from the general type traits then that is what he actually get and not what the type say!
As for the cleric, remember that the first few Bestiaries mostly avoided Golarion-specific references. The entry for the Tarrasque doesn't even mention Rovagug or the Pit of Gormuz. The clerics are generic, not tied to a specific deity.
Assuming a deity free cleric, that cleric still shouldn't have trident proficiency. Is there any other explanation for that proficiency?
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As for the cleric, remember that the first few Bestiaries mostly avoided Golarion-specific references. The entry for the Tarrasque doesn't even mention Rovagug or the Pit of Gormuz. The clerics are generic, not tied to a specific deity.Assuming a deity free cleric, that cleric still shouldn't have trident proficiency. Is there any other explanation for that proficiency?
Not "deity-free." "Not tied to a Golarion-specific deity" is what I should have said. Whatever generic deity that one NPC cleric worships happens to have the trident as its favored weapon and charm and water among its domains.
We've got one of the people involved in the initial creation of Pathfinder posting (right after publication, mind you) that 0 HD races don't automatically get proficiencies. And then we've got Advance Race Guide years later saying the same thing:
The second difference is that all of these race types are 0-Hit Dice creatures, which means that their Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw progression, skill points, class skills, and weapon and armor proficiencies are based on the class levels each member of a race takes.
There 100% are ambiguities and uncertainties in the rules. But when it has been made completely clear what the intention is, we aren't serving any purpose when we force our way a convoluted conclusion and say "since I found something that I think contradicts how Paizo says it should work I am right."
The outsider type also grants 1d10 HD, BAB equal to total HD (full BAB), Two good Saves, and 6 skill points per HD. Do native outsiders also get those?
Planetouched is a term used in D&D and is not used anywhere in the actual Pathfinder rules.
The outsider type also grants 1d10 HD, BAB equal to total HD (full BAB), Two good Saves, and 6 skill points per HD. Do native outsiders also get those?
If they had racial hit dice, they would. But those values are in their own separate section that is indeed all about hit dice, also known as "Features". The "Traits" are universal to any member of that monster type, unless specified otherwise.
Look at the wyrwood. They officially get all of those traits, even though they aren't all mentioned in their race entry. You can see this by looking at the example one, as it gets +10 to its hitpoints from being small. That bonus is only recorded in the construct traits, because it's a construct.
https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Wyrwood
Or being even more ridiculous, humans don't need to "eat, breath or sleep", because that is only mentioned under the humanoid traits, which isn't mentioned in their race entry.
Planetouched is a term used in D&D and is not used anywhere in the actual Pathfinder rules.
Yeah, though that's just trivia. In this case, it matters that they are native outsiders.
Addendum:
"Features" isn't quite as codified in PF as it was in 3.5, but the wording is still there. Check out the origin and see how Features and Traits are even more separated.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#types
The Vine Leshy is a good example of a creature that is "otherwise specified":
Leshy: Vine leshys are plants with the leshy subtype but lack the immunities to mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep, and stunning that the plant type usually grants, and they lack the immunity to electricity and sonic that the leshy subtype usually grants.
The basis for claiming that native outsiders get proficiency in simple and martial weapons is a post on a D&D 3.5 publication. While Pathfinder was built to be backwards compatible it is a standalone game. Any Pathfinder official sources take precedence over any D&D 3.5 source. As Belafon pointed out the ARG (a pathfinder rule book) clearly states that 0 HD race do not get the weapon and armor proficiency of their type. If a GM wants to go by the D&D rules, they are free to do so as a house rule.
No the basis was that the proficiency is listed in Outsider traits and that trait is not removed by the race.
But, I missed the second half of Belafon's quote from the ARG. That's the only reason they don't, because of that specific rule. Frankly, this is probably why the FAQ considered the issue closed, because that sentence got included in this one place to correct this issue with granting proficiency. It was published a year and a half after James's comment. A very sneaky "otherwise specified", since it treats it as a matter of course within a long list instead of a new addition to the rules.
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The outsider type also grants 1d10 HD, BAB equal to total HD (full BAB), Two good Saves, and 6 skill points per HD. Do native outsiders also get those?If they had racial hit dice, they would. But those values are in their own separate section that is indeed all about hit dice, also known as "Features". The "Traits" are universal to any member of that monster type, unless specified otherwise.
No the basis was that the proficiency is listed in Outsider traits and that trait is not removed by the race.
But, I missed the second half of Belafon's quote from the ARG. That's the only reason they don't, because of that specific rule.
Melkiador, I can use your logic to "prove" that a half-elf alchemist has proficiency with tower shields. Even though the class description says
They are also proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Ready for the logic? Look at the Bestiary entry for Humanoids. Now look at the "Traits" section of that entry. It says
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
OK, it says that if they have a character class, they are only proficient with the armor that class grants. So light only. But it also says if they are proficient with any form of armor they are proficient with shields. It doesn't say anything about the shield proficiency being by class!
Therefore a half-elf (humanoid) alchemist has proficiency in all shields.
That case is mostly just vague writing. All sentences in that paragraph after “If a humanoid does not have a class” are in reference to humanoids that don’t have classes.
people are just confusing/conflating monster rules with Class(PC) rules. It's not PF1 RAW or even 3.0/3.5 OGL material. yeahhh...
You are actually supposed to conflate those though. The issue is just that the Paizo designers decided they didn't want proficiencies to be granted by type after it was brought up, so they added an obscured rule to the ARG to cover that corner case. It's not like proficiencies aren't already granted by race, so being granted by type isn't some huge leap of logic.
If they had noticed this issue before printing the Bestiary, they probably would have just moved the proficiencies to the features instead of the traits, which would be a change from 3.5.
ok lets get some rules figured out.
general rule is for all cases not specifically calls out an exception. it effect all things under it's rule unless called out otherwise.
specific rule is an exception to the general rule and can only effect itself. one can not use a specific exception to set the rules to other unrelated to it. it is not a general rule.
back to us:
the general rule for outsiders call out general outsiders traits among them the proficiency in all martial and simple weapons. same general rule also say that should a specific creature entry say otherwise it trump what the general trait say.
the specific of each 'planetouched'(a non pathfinder name but meh) creature rules for player playing them include some of these traits, but removed the proficiency in all martial weapon proficiency etc. so they don't get it.
the fact a specific monster entry (Undine) include what seem to be a proficiency in trident, said monster is not player approved and is set as a monster for gm use. as such it should NOT have any effect on the rules for player played Undine. Hack at the same link bellow are the character Undine traits and again no proficiency in martial weapons is mentioned.
why does the gm monster has such proficiency?
GM fiat exception? favored god weapon? it doesn't matter! it is NOT there as a player character and as such has no effect on the rules for one. trying to apply the rules from it is the same as asking why doesn't all Undine character have a free cleric level.
The Undine is also a cleric. Clerics get proficiency in their deities favored weapon. While the entry in the bestiary does not list the deity or favored weapon it is still a class feature of the cleric and is the most likely explanation for the Undine using it. The Vivisectionist Cleric (7th level human cleric) has a spiked chain listed as its weapon and the listed bonus shows it is proficient with the spiked chain. The character does not have exotic weapon listed as a feat, so clearly it gains that from the favored weapon class feature of a cleric.