What alchemical items does your alchemist typically create on an average day? Which items do they reserve for Quick Alchemy? Why?
I am considering playing my first alchemist soon and I'm trying to develop a better understanding of all the cool options out there.
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That's super dependent on your Alchemist. You don't prepare the same things depending on Research Field. And even with the same Research Field, you will have massive discrepencies depending on your build and environment (PFS, AP, homebrew...).
So you should better explain us what you want to play.
Also, for Quick Alchemy you have access to your entire Formula book. So you can pretty much create everything and as such there's no "average day" unless you face always the same challenges.
The first thing to understand is that now that VVials are infinite, all prep & combat item selection exists in a world where Alch has unlimited utility out of combat. When reading items, a lot of them look good enough to make it into a list, but are not mentioned because they are being made/used out of combat and recharging for free, like Contagion Metabolizers.
One of the main reasons old Chir used to prep 9ish Elixirs of Life was because they were "good enough" for a combat heal, while also being able to chug extras for convenience as the day progressed so as not to waste them. Infused Reagents used to be "use it or loose it" which incentivized that kind of play/prep selection.
When all Alchemists can print infinite Soothing Tonics, you no longer prep healing elixirs for btwn combat sustain. Choosing to prep an Elixir of Lf is now only done for a very specific use-case.
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Assume I'm talking about combat unless said otherwise:
Quick Alchemy is mostly used for bombs, plus a few elixirs, mostly after you get Combine Elixir at L6.
The 2A cost of using Quick Alch + Item for non-bombs is too painful given the lower potency of most alch items, especially considering most items also have range / reach issues. If the combat impact of spending a VV & 2A on the item is less than casting Electric Arc, then you'll just cast Electric Arc.
There are other misc items that can be potent enough to both be that much *better* than a 1A bomb, and contextually powerful enough to justify Quick Alch, but it's rare.*
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Quick Alch is capped to 10 min duration, while recharging in 10 min. This allows Alchemsits to "sustain" 10 min effects like mutagens indefinitely. I do recommend most Alchs do this, or at least experiment with it. Common options are to sustain 1 self-mutagen, and sustaining an injury poison pre-combat is just about the best possible context to maximize the usability of injury poisons as a concept.
Note that you can only sustain the same number of effects as you recharge, and doing so effectively reduces your max VVs.
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Prep items have a few use-cases.
#1
Buffing.
Q-Alch is now capped at 10 minutes. It can be worth a prep item to make a single antiplauge or greater darkvision elixir for an all-day boost. (most poisons are now in this grouping)
#2
Combat.
Bombs are still king within Quick Bomber's world, and prepping a daily bomb or two is genuinely not a bad idea. Because you can buy/craft bombs, these prep bombs usually have a DC you need to scale, like Skunk or Silver Orb. Main exception there is if your GM allows you to use an injury poison upon a slashing/piercing bomb, as you cannot pre-poison an instant Q-Alch bomb.
Other items you want to prep instead of leaving for Q-Alch generally need to have a better use-case when worn. This usually means alch-ammo that's preloaded into a nice simple and L hand crossbow. It can also mean a liquid, such as an elixir, that needs to be preloaded into an Injection modded weapon.
At or just past the upgrade level is the only time my Chirs prep 2ish El of Lf now, because I can load it into a Spiked Gauntlet for 1A use.
2 main alch ammo stand out as good enough to justify prepping and shooting. Exsanguinating ammunition "just works" on hit, adding a 1 min debuff w/ a weakness to bleed, while also increasing the bleed recovery DC by 2. If you find a Wounding rune in an AP like I have, it's a genuinely good opening 2A for when you're much to far for bombs.
Ooze is also very good, or "just good" depending on the GM's ruling. It looks like RaW the shot overrides the normal recovery rules, and if you hit w/ it, it *requires* an action spend to wipe off. Ooze carries 3 low ish effects, but they are all often appealing. All shot dmg becomes acid, some persistent acid while oozed, and a small speed penalty while oozed. More universal than exsanguinating, but not quite as powerful.
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The elephant in the room is if your GM allows uncommons, or if you have any access to seeking out a specific one, such as via Inventor. Alchemy items... are kinda the #1 case where yes, rarity does mean power.
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My specific prep for my L15 in Stolen Fate: 9 daily, 4 + INT:
2 darkvisions, 1 Antiplauge, 1 Exsanguinating, 1 Ooze, 1 Gorgon's Breath, 1 for the Monk, 1 for the Sorc, 1 for the Barb (also getting that extra Darkvision), 1 freebie/wildcard.
My prep for my L10 in SoT: (10 items via familiar's +1)
1 Breath of the Mantis God, 1 Skunk bomb, 1 Oxy Ooze (for specific plan), 1 Antidote, 1 Antiplague, 1 Darkvision, 3 Elix o Lf.
Thanks Trip.H! I hadn't considered treating mutagens and similar items as persistent options with versatile vials.
That's super dependent on your Alchemist. You don't prepare the same things depending on Research Field. And even with the same Research Field, you will have massive discrepancies depending on your build and environment (PFS, AP, homebrew...).
So you should better explain us what you want to play.
Also, for Quick Alchemy you have access to your entire Formula book. So you can pretty much create everything and as such there's no "average day" unless you face always the same challenges.
I'm leaning towards a slow, tanky level 11 chirurgion in bastion plate.
Here's what I've picked so far:
Class Feats and Abilities
Advanced Efficient Alchemy
Efficient Alchemy
Improvise Admixture
Invigorating Elixir
Soothing Vials
General Feats
Armor Proficiency
Prescient Consumable
Prescient Planner
Skill Feats
Advanced First Aid
Alchemical Crafting(B)
Battle Medicine
Continual Recovery
Robust Recovery
Seasoned(B)
Ward Medic
Now that I see the power of unlimited soothing tonic though, I'm reconsidering nearly all of my skill feats.
IMO, all elixir improving feats (aside from Combine Elixir) are traps.
You are occupying an entire class feat for the rare sticky foe debuff that's dangerous enough to want to cleanse, the feat uses your 1 p turn Additive, it only works via Q-Alch, and it is not guaranteed to do anything; the feats only provide a chance via counteract.
The cherry on top is that because the condition-remover items exist, every alch can abuse recharging VVs to cleanse almost everything those feats allow.
I also encourage all Alchs to take an archetype for usable combat actions, as you don't really have enough alchemy to depend upon that.
Think about how a single elixir feat like Soothing could instead be a Witch dip w/ a 2 ability familiar & cantrip. If you swap out both elixir boosters and one efficient alch feat for Witch stuff, that's all 3 needed to end lockout. Kineticist is similar. While you don't want DC using Kin impulses, that is a great way to get some evergreen actions. Fresh Produce is outright better than using alchemy to heal in-combat in 95+% of the time, especially if your GM allows the Kin to "feed" the fruits to allies.
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Efficient Alchemy is also kinda a trap-ish. Familiars can provide +1 prep item for every slot you dedicate toward that, and +2 prep items is already very low impact as it is.
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You don't seem to have an L1 feat, though that pretty much "needs" to be Quick Bomber, as it cuts your most powerful item group from 2A to 1A.
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You've already got a good idea that it's a waste to go for those medicine feats when Soothing Tonics come online at L2. Trick Magic Item is imo too good to pass up if you have a free slot. Otherwise the skill feats are super dependent upon your Skill choice. Even Dirty Trick is good.
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I've been saying it a lot in other threads, but imo the "power" of Alchemist is now almost entirely dependent upon using VVials to pre-buff with those potent 1min elixirs like Numbing before door-kicks. 0 action power is no joke, and that burning of VVs before combat doubly-reinforces the idea that you want to have some other non-Alchemy combat actions to do.
If you want one option that is "inside-Alchemist" you can buy/craft a ton of low L mutagens, then spam the Regurgitate Mutagen feat. It doesn't care about the mutagen level or duration, and a d6 scaling save-or-sick Reflex save is genuinely good (and it's not attack trait).
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A super under-rated mutagen is the Stone Body Mutagen. Physical resistance is no joke, and is super effective when paired with Numbing's tHP. No low level ver exists though, so you will not spam bought versions of that w/ Regurgitate.
IMO, all elixir improving feats (aside from Combine Elixir) are traps.
I strongly disagree. These feats are great and should be considered by any Alchemist but Bombers.
Advanced Efficient Alchemy
Efficient Alchemy
Unless you plan on playing a ranged Toxicologist or take the Alchemist Dedication from another class these feats are mostly worthless. Your main supply of Alchemical Items are your Versatile Vials. If you want to increase them, there's a Familiar ability that seems much more useful (also, Item Delivery is a strong choice on a chirurgeon).
Now that I see the power of unlimited soothing tonic though, I'm reconsidering nearly all of my skill feats.
Yeah, you don't need Medicine to heal on an Alchemist anymore. It's only useful for the occasional skill checks. So in PFS, it's nice. Anywhere else it's a mostly useless ability.
I'm leaning towards a slow, tanky level 11 chirurgion in bastion plate.
With Bestial Mutagen? Because I don't see the level 8 feat to boost it. It's really the go to offensive option for Chirurgeon now. You can be permamorphed with your Versatile Vials.
So, to answer your question. For your daily prep, the go to answer is poison. It's much easier to use Poison on your daily items than on Quick Alchemy ones. Otherwise, nothing's much useful, choose the 8-hour long items preferably. For your Quick Alchemy Items, you'll need a lot of healing items, especially once Combine Elixir kicks in (you forgot it in your build, for a Chirurgeon it's a no brainer as it basically gives you Cleric healing output).
I strongly recommend against being dependent upon Bestial for Strikes. The main concept of mutagens is flexibility, and picking one to "main" is a serious limitation that renders the rest of the item group kinda useless to you.
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Again, a single dedication feat grants Cast a Spell and everything that comes with it. Adding a 1p 10 min counteract condition-remover to a VV elixir imo does not compare to any form of outside-Alch utility dip. Medic is ofc a common pick, Dr's Visitation is especially good when your elixirs are reach-range. Even Talisman Dabbler or something provides Chir with waaay more value than Invigorating. Don't forget that your QVials cannot take Additives, so you must spend VVs to activate the feat.
If one does take Combine Elixir, that means that things like Invigorating are only a 1VV discount on the rare time you want to cleanse a debuff with the extra * of a 10 min cooldown. Because you could just use Combine to add the correct condition remover elixir.
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Adding a 1p 10 min counteract condition-remover to a VV elixir imo does not compare to any form of outside-Alch utility dip.
It's not once per 10 minute, it's once per 10 minute per character. Also, it's not a condition remover, it's an effect remover (it removes the effect imposing the condition, so everything is removed not just the condition). And once it really kicks in at level 12, the counteract check becomes trivial.
It's the most powerful effect remover in the game, nothing comes even close to it. During late game, every other monster has a combat removing ability. So it's really strong.Doctor's Visitation is a waste of a feat when you can just grab an Item Delivery Familiar. But well, as Talisman Dabbler is a joke I assume you were not serious in your post.
Because you could just use Combine to add the correct condition remover elixir.
These items only exist in your dreams.
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I've currently only played my 10th Level Mutagenist under the PC2 rules. I'm looking forward to playing my 11th level Bomber later this month (if I can grab a spot when 6-09, The Power of Legends drops.)
So, Norm Waglan, my Mutagenist, has Int +5 but doesn't have Efficient Alchemy. So, 9 Advanced Alchemy Items a day. He also has an Alchemical Familiar, and usually will take Extra Alchemy & Extra Vial.
4 doses of Bestial Mutagen.
1 Darkvision Elixir
2 Antidotes
1 Antiplague
1 Soothing Tonic in case he's out of Versatile Vials.
1 Mistform Elixir
He has 7 regenerating Versatile Vials, with an additional once-per-day one from Jeeves (his familiar.)
I've only played him twice. However, the following regimen has worked quite well:
Every ten minutes: Cheetah's Elixir, Bravo's Brew, Eagle-Eye Elixir.
I'm not a huge fan of the "drink your regen limit every ten minutes" strategy, but I've gotta admit, it's effective.
Roll Initiative: Hit the Collar, take a point of Piercing, gain 10 temp HP from the Bestial.
First round of the fight: Combine Elixirs Soothing & Numbing Tonics, Stride or Raise Shield (usually Raise Shield).
Rest of the fight: Two Versatile Vials in reserve.
Last game, was able to pre Buff, which I find pretty rare usually. So, used the one-a-day to add in Chromatic Jellyfish Oil and burnt the final two Versatile Vials on Rainbow Vinegar and Iron Wine. Still spent the first round on Soothing & Numbing.
Pretty sure I'm not dreaming up niche items to add to the alch list.
The PC2 re-dos even initiate a counteract of *every* eligible effect, not a single one like the feat does. And they have no cooldown.
Surging Serum, Bottled Catharsis, Contagion Metabolizer, Blood Booster, Emetic Paste*, D Blood Pudding. (you should add all of these to your book)
Does not cover all the possibilities that you can get via the feats, but the gap between the coverage is way too small to justify what can be literally any archetype dip in the system, which helps the Alchemist class more than its peers.
Getting a spell tradition, a good Reaction, Stance, or even flourish are all waaaaay better than spending feats to gain such a contextual Additive.
And yes, Talisman Dabbler's ability to, in the worst and most brain-dead case, save you actions via Retrieval Prisms is "better" than these elixir feats because it can save you actions every single day, while these feats you'll be lucky if you can trigger them in a given adventuring day. That mention is there specifically to highlight how frankly shit many Alch feats are in actual play. When you can Draw-dodge scrolls/wands/staves & have a tradition, prisms are basically a reusable spell slot in terms of action economy, though an Alchemist might prefer to poof that Ooze-preloaded Alch Crossbow.
Just because it can look enticing from a certain angle, doesn't mean it really is in practice. Being the "best" at niche things like condition removal does not mean that it has value to specialize in that niche.
I was able to use the Clotting Elixirs feat *once* across many levels before I retrained it. Even though bleed is very common in comparison to things like Sickened, Clumsy, etc. (mostly because it's often applied via Strikes w/ no save, while other conditions not only must be possible, but must land on PCs and must be failed)
The one time the stars aligned where it was worth it to move + Q-Alch + feed, the Clotting feat did not stop the bleeding, and said bleed stoppage did not really matter to the pace of the fight. It was a bonus because I was already buffing that ally. (which you want to do *before* fights begin, not after)
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And for the record, Exemplar's Wreath is the best condition removal in the system. Which is either 1/3 base selections, gained as a single L8 feat, or as a single Dedication feat.
You mean Victor's Wreath of the Exemplar class?
Pretty sure I'm not dreaming up niche items to add to the alch list.
The PC2 re-dos even initiate a counteract of *every* eligible effect, not a single one like the feat does. And they have no cooldown.
Surging Serum, Bottled Catharsis, Contagion Metabolizer, Blood Booster, Emetic Paste*, D Blood Pudding. (you should add all of these to your book)
None of these will counteract anything (failing sometimes even on a nat 20) but Contagion Metabolizer (for a Chirurgeon), which happens to counteract what the feats don't cover.
And yes, Talisman Dabbler's ability to, in the worst and most brain-dead case, save you actions via Retrieval Prisms is "better" than these elixir feats because it can save you actions every single day
Have you ever had a character critically failing a save against Warp Mind, Blindness, Slow, Frightful Presence, Phantasmal Calamity? Or just hit by a good long lasting condition like Drained? At high level, these things happen often and they just wreck a character out of the fight (when it's not out of the adventuring day). Counteracting these will gain you much more actions than a single action to draw an item (which is nice but I personally use Retrieval Belts for that).
In my opinion, you haven't played at high level enough to realize how removing effects is an actual party role.Now, I agree, these feats are high level ones. If you don't plan on going over level 10, you can forget about them.
Yup, I've had my PC get ambushed by a ghost coming out of the floor & casting a spell; needing to hero point the Never Mind to avoid instant ~death, while still being permanently Stupefied 4. They had to fix themselves via the new at the time Remove Curse Occultism skill feat, because we just leveled up and the Cleric didn't/couldn't for some unremembered reason (no idea in hindsight why).
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You could get a 3 feat chain of Invigorating, Improved Invigorating, and Supreme Invigorating, and still be completely unable to help with Feeblemind / Never Mind. Because all curses are still completely immune to alchemy.
Same issue with Contagion Metabolizers as disease removers. Way more than half of the time someone in an AP has actually caught a disease, it's been a cursed disease that my Alch PCs cannot treat.
The dingleberry on top of the sh.it sunday is that if you play your Alch PC honestly, that means that they will not recognize the source of the debuff / malady in combat, spend a whole turn racing to the rescue to try and cleanse it, and if the GM is gracious, then the PC will auto-recognize a curse is involved and it's actually impossible, instead of failing because of a low counteract roll. That single wasted turn could get someone killed, let alone if the Alch makes a "second attempt".
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One PC with with Cleanse Affliction or similar is pretty much required, the alch elixir feats are not.
And all those scary spells you mentioned that are not curses? That's why the Sorc/Bard took Dispel Magic as a Signature Spell.
Because in actual practice, odds are the party has a magic user, and Dispel Magic is an actual "undo all magics minus curses" button that's often worth the single PC build investment of their limited top R spells.
The actual remaining effects that are left to Alchemist to cleanse as a niche are the non-magical, non-curse effects like those of poisons.
And that's what Contagion Metabolizers and Blood Boosters are for. They genuinely fill most of the "in practice" gap that casters don't cover. I've even used a Sinew Shock out of combat one time, because the maleffect was lingering and we didn't know for how long, but wanted to save the spell.
In a different campaign we found an uncommon Panacea potion, and that Alch also had Cauldron from Witch. Once I hit L13 and could make that wondrous potion... nothing changed. I never even thought about using it because a single party spellcaster has so much coverage that even that instant curse removal is just irrelevant for most *campaigns,* let alone adventuring days.
Again, the counteract spells (which only got better in the Remaster) are infinitely easier to keep on-hand, and doing so does not permanently waste your class feats!
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When you put the cost and capabilities of the feats into context, where a caster can cover more effects via a few cheap scrolls, and can choose to keep Dispel Magic heightened if the party is really worried about such debuffs, I would never recommend an Alchemist cripple their build to take 2 to 4 feats for something that (generously) happens 2 or 3 times in a campaign. That's not what class feats are for, they are for things that are character defining abilities relevant every adventuring day.
Take that cool archetype you wanted instead, even if it's mostly flavor, it'll be more valuable at 90+ % of tables than the condition remover feats.
To top all that off, the Alch may not even be able to use the feat Additives in combat due to possibly being the one that failed the roll and is incaped. Like when we got jumped by giant spider that slid down, paralyzed the alch, and started to flee with them (upward) before my PC could even act.
Sure would have been completely useless for that Alchemist to have spent the feats for Improved Invigorating.
And still would have been useless if someone else had been yoinked, because the Alchemist needs touch range!
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So to readers:
If your party does not have a Wiz/Witch/Bard/Sorc/Cleric/Oracle/Druid/Animist/Sumn/Magus/Psychic, or Exemplar, or a Thaum, or a Scroll Trickster, then there may be a use-case and justification for the Alchemist spending multiple of their precious class feat budget on one or more reactive, fail-required, curse-still-unsolved, conditional removal elixir Additives.
At that same time, I ask you consider what else you could get from those feats, and decide if you think it's worth it.
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Because in actual practice, odds are the party has a magic user, and Dispel Magic is an actual "undo all magics minus curses" button that's often worth the single PC build investment of their limited top R spells.
Dispel Magic only removes Spells, that's not even half of "all magics" (much closer to 25% actually). And it doesn't work against permanent conditions which happens to be the ones you want to remove most of the time. So if you're Drained by a Wraith, scared by a Dragon, Blinded by the Blindness spell, Confused by Warp Mind or whatever then it doesn't work.
Also, Prepared casters don't have the spell slots for a top level Dispel Magic. I've seen a single Dispel cast by a Prepared caster thanks to a Scroll given in the adventure.And to casters it costs daily resources, so it has an impact for the rest of the day. And at high level they don't get the +1 to counteract level which is a 50% extra chance of success half of the time.
And honestly, I've seen countless Spontaneous casters without Dispel Magic as a Signature Spell, which I agree is a weak move, but you can't just handwave that.
I don't expect even half of the parties to have a top rank Dispel Magic available, and very few with more than one. And anyway it won't work against most of what Invigorating Elixirs removes. So I think you can safely ignore it when judging Invigorating Elixirs.
You dislike Invigorating Elixirs, fine. But I know there are a lot of cases where I'd have loved to have it available (and strangely, a lot of the cases I remember were rather dire, because it's tough to win a fight when your Confused Monk attacks randomly (critical failure to Warp Mind) or when your main melee martial is Stunned for 10 rounds (critical failure to Phantasmal Calamity) and in both of these cases Dispel Magic wouldn't have helped).
As far as I can tell, all the Duration: permanent spell maladies are 100% removable via Dispel Magic. Dispel does work on 100% of non-curse magics, because it is the lack of lingering magics that makes those rare Blindness type spells tricky like the hags that use them.
Blindness (and those damn hag spells) are abnormal due to having no spell duration, but a potentially unlimited effect duration. This also means that such spells never involve a curse. Sound Body + Clear Mind can still cure all of those types, are available one spell R before Blindness, and are as cheap an investment as scrolls, which you can just buy after the fact (or Prescient Consumable them) if needs be.
In real play, those hag spell quirks of permanence are neat story beats and not real combat problems, because combat's only 1 min anyways. That duration change prevents the spell from having a more severe malady, and it makes them *easier* to deal with after the fight (not magic means not curses).
Because of how easy it is to cure all of them via magic scroll (or even Medicine), those "permanent" effect durations, only on the crit fail of unlikely to even encounter spells, are not at all relevant nor common enough to be a serious factor for PC feat selection.
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It's an insane double standard to think that a caster cannot budget a top or top -1 slot for Dispel Magic, etc, yet you think it's a good spend of Alchemist class feat slots for the counteract additives.
And because in the very worst story context / situation, such casters can retrain into a condition remover spell without messing up their feats, it's always going to be easier for even a repertoire a caster to pivot and solve the problem than an Alchemist.
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And you cannot feed a Confused ally, because they are not your ally. At least your GM would allow that attempt to have been rolled back, as your PC would have known better. If it had been a curse, you'd have wasted your whole turn during a critical moment.
I'll say again, that these elixir feats are terrible traps, and may look nice on paper*, but all the asterisks and hurdles make them almost unusable or irrelevant in actual play, while costing the Alchemist faaaar more then what other PCs pay to get superior condition coverage.
As far as I can tell, all the Duration: permanent spell maladies are 100% removable via Dispel Magic. Dispel does work on 100% of non-curse magics, because it is the lack of lingering magics that makes those rare Blindness type spells tricky like the hags that use them.
Rare? Check your book. They are really common (Blindness, Sound Burst, Warp Mind, Petrify, Phantasmal Killer, etc...), maybe even the majority of Condition inflicting spells.
Sound Body + Clear Mind
So you have Dispel Magic, Sound Body, Clear Mind prepared. What does your character do besides curing effects?
Sound Body, Clear Mind, etc.. are nice after a long rest. You don't always want/can take this rest. You also sometimes want your Fighter to continue the fight instead of just wacking air.In real play, those hag spell quirks of permanence are neat story beats and not real combat problems
In real play, these spells wreck parties. If losing a PC during a fight is "not a real combat problem" then I doubt your difficulty setting is high.
It's an insane double standard to think that a caster cannot budget a top or top -1 slot for Dispel Magic, etc, yet you think it's a good spend of Alchemist class feat slots for the counteract additives.
If there was a feat to cast Dispel Magic on a 10-minute cooldown that'd be a crazy good feat even for a caster. Top level slots are your main combat weapons, they are not meant for utility.
Speaking about double standard: Why do you prepare Dispel Magic when, according to you, all these effects are just "neat story beats"?And you cannot feed a Confused ally, because they are not your ally.
Wrong again. You don't need someone to be your ally to feed them but to be willing. And according to the rules: "A player can declare their character a willing or unwilling target at any time, regardless of turn order or their character's condition (such as when a character is paralyzed, unconscious, or even dead)." So it works fine.
I would never recommend an Alchemist cripple their build to take 2 to 4 feats for something that (generously) happens 2 or 3 times in a campaign.
You made me laugh. You never experienced debilitating conditions? Or long lasting annoying ones?
The main issue of Invigorating Elixir is the time it takes to really kick in. The level 4 feat will cover nearly no situations. The level 8 feat is when it starts to kick in but without the level 12 feat it's really random (as you can only try once per character per combat). At level 12, on the other hand, it becomes character defining. Especially for a Chirurgeon.
Also, I agree about Clotting Elixir, it's nowhere close to strong. Soothing Vials is nice but niche. At least it only costs a level 1 feat and as a Chirurgeon there's not much for you at level 1 anyway. I personally take it instead of the second Improved Invigorating Elixir on my Chirurgeon.
@shroudb: I don't think I can convince Trip either. But I don't answer for them alone, I also answer for Ravingdork who's the one interested in this discussion.
Speaking about double standard: Why do you prepare Dispel Magic when, according to you, all these effects are just "neat story beats"?
If you're going to say junk like that, be sure to actually get it right. All you are doing is proving that you're not reading my words nor listening to my points.
As I said, Dispel Magic is for magic, the "neat story beat" permanent effects are all solved via Sound Body + Clear Mind (although now we are at Regenerate levels), which can be a pre-bought scroll or done the next day. After the remaster, these 2 spells have really changed how much of a non-issue those hag spells are.
So you have Dispel Magic, Sound Body, Clear Mind prepared. What does your character do besides curing effects?
I said that the condition cleansers are for scrolls if you're worried, next day prep otherwise, or even "go to town and buy a scroll after being debilitated" territory.
Dispel Magic makes sense to slot at max R at most levels. Because wanting to delete some magic is an "every day" kind of thing, especially when that includes ongoing magics that are helpful to foes. Thanks to outright replacing "damaged organs," Regenerate is also worth slotting at high level because that covers the 2 cleanser pair with no counteract needed, while also being an amazing healing/support spell.
Curses are their own thing that are solved cheapest via the Cleanse Affliction or the skill feat, and can never be addressed via alchemy.
I didn't even mention how ongoing effects caused by some environmental harm / aura are yet another entire category of thing that the cleanser elixirs are useless for because they will be instantly reapplied.
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After playing alongside that Sorc w/ signature Dispel Magic, I've adopted this stance. I've seen just how many things have the magical tag and are valid targets and IMO, Dispel Magic is easily the single best R2 spell to set as signature. In combat, out of combat, being able to nullify the effects and harms of ongoing magic is really that useful. From poofing wall/battlefield spells to deleting foe buffs, Dispel Magic has been a crazy MVPS.
That Sorc PC also has R4 Cleanse Affliction for curses (which can be upcast freely for the sake of counteracting). Now that they have Regenerate, there's no need to even worry about a scroll of Sound Body/etc. Magical, not magical, and curses, done with 3 spells and 0 feats. Iirc the only thing left is Petrified, which is another single scroll buy if one is that paranoid.
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My PCs are ratfolk/Ysoki, and I've never once needed to use Uncanny Cheeks for a cleanse scroll, even though I took that option specifically for such niche worries. I have explicitly thought about being able to pull out a high R Cleanse Affliction/etc scroll because of how often curses were a time waster in low L campaigns. Whether that use would be burning the scroll to make the attempt myself, or tossing it to the Sorc for 1A. Pulling out a condition-remover has never been close to an appealing option, because we've never had that kind of need. And that Sorc + Alch have gone from L1 to 15 together, with 0 hag-type permanent effects sticking in the first place.
Being able to pull out a party-wide invisibility in a scroll has been far more "clutch" of a need-solver for that "any consumable any time" ability.
The only campaign where permanent effects actually stuck to a PC thus far were either curses, or low level Abm Vlts where a Blindness stuck to the Monk and was removed the next day thanks to the magic of buying scrolls. which was only needed because the first slot attempt failed, and we didn't want to wait another day. Because that's what those permanent hag spells are, a wasted adventuring day or two.
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For the elixir Additives, I seriously think the PC-knowledge issue is also being handwavied due to veteran meta knowledge, and not knowing what you are hoping to cure is a particularly nasty pitfall. RaW, the characters do not get to read the spells nor abilities being used against them. Dispel Magic is partially so good because it's use case is completely known (besides curses), if it pings as magic, it can be dispelled.
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I am also just face-palming at the idea that you think it's valid for a monk, who will spend all their actions making lethal Strikes at their allies due to confusion, is able to peacefully drink an elixir being offered to them. That's absurd, and I'm glad to know that you're in the minority on playing Confused that way from when that topic came up last time.
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If some people genuinely think that a 3+ feat chain, which is enough to poach any Archetype thing you could want in the system, is worth more when instead spent for these elixir feats, I'm genuinely happy the option exists for those players' PCs.
IMO, the cheap disposability of magic scrolls, the existing coverage offered by the alchemy condition removers, the rarity of these effects to both be used against and to stick to the the party, the difficulty/opportunity cost of combat administration, and all the other reasons prior, mean that I'm more likely to recommend an Alchemist take something as unrelated as a Kineticist or even Thaum dip before I would advise one take the Invigorating feat chain.
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I decided to do a comparison between the Invigorating Elixir feats and simply using healing elixirs to remove conditions.
Healing Elixirs appear to allow you to remove the following conditions reliably, either through counteract checks, or saving throws.
• Clumsy
• Disease
• Drugs
• Emotion
• Enfeebled
• Poison
• Stupefied
The Invigorating Elixir feats can remove the following conditions (earliest level availability in parenthesis):
• Blinded (8)
• Clumsy (4)
• Confused (8)
• Controlled (8)
• Deafened (8)
• Disease (12)
• Drained (8)
• Enfeebled (4)
• Fleeing (8)
• Frightened (8)
• Paralyzed (8)
• Petrified (12)
• Slowed (8)
• Stupefied (4)
• Stunned (12)
The former option comes online much earlier, doesn't use up any feats, and functions on any of the listed conditions despite their source (disease, curse, or whatever).
However, the latter option covers a broader range of conditions (note though that both lists have its fair share of exclusive conditions) and is slightly more reliable in its success rates. However, many of the condition removals in this option come online late, and are ineffective against certain sources (such as diseases and curses).
Honestly, I think I'm going to take both options. Since I want this to be a support character, I'm willing to invest in the feats. Having both will allow me to cover the widest range of condition removal, and may even allow me to double up in some cases. For example, a Surging Serum with the Invigorating Elixir additive would allow me to make two counteract checks against the Clumsy condition (without needing the extra versatile vial from Combine Elixirs).
At the moment I don't plan on multiclassing or taking a familiar with this particular character (though I recognize and acknowledge the clear advantages of the familiar).
There's a few more non-elixir ones, like the Blood Pudding for Slowed, and the Emetic Paste for Sickened, etc, but you have more than enough info on the topic to make an informed choice, lol.
I've seen just how many things have the magical tag
You can't Dispel something because it has the Magical tag. It has to be a spell specifically. It may be the cause of or disagreement because your use of Dispel Magic seems much broader than what the rules allow.
Healing Elixirs appear to allow you to remove the following conditions reliably, either through counteract checks, or saving throws.
• Clumsy
• Disease
• Drugs
• Emotion
• Enfeebled
• Poison
• Stupefied
Healing Elixirs only remove Afflictions (and only if you are a Chirurgeon). All the others fail to remove Conditions because their level is so low even a nat 20 can be a failure.
Anyway, if you test both, you'll realize it quickly.Edit: plus, the Invigorating Effect is ON TOP of the regular effects of the elixir.
Edit: Plus plus, Invigorating removes the effect imposing the Condition. So you don't have to choose between Fleeing and Frightened from Fear effects, you remove both. Also, you can remove other things than the Condition, like the other effects of Synesthesia.
Healing Elixirs only remove Afflictions (and only if you are a Chirurgeon).
My header should probably have read "Condition Removing Elixirs" as I was speaking generally and not referring to the specific healing elixir alchemical item.
All the others fail to remove Conditions because their level is so low even a nat 20 can be a failure. Anyway, if you test both, you'll realize it quickly.
With Quick Alchemy, I can make the higher level elixirs more or less at will though. At level 11, they're the same level as my character and only 1 point behind on the counteract roll. It will only really make a difference when time is an issue (such as during combat, or with powerful persistent damage effects).
Plus plus, Invigorating removes the effect imposing the Condition. So you don't have to choose between Fleeing and Frightened from Fear effects, you remove both. Also, you can remove other things than the Condition, like the other effects of Synesthesia.
Oh wow! I missed that! It doesn't just remove the condition, but rather the entire effect causing the condition. That's a hell of a lot more powerful than I initially gave it credit for. Definitely taking those feats now!
The PC2 re-dos of the cleanser items also have that wording.
When you drink this elixir, the elixir attempts to counteract each effect on you that has the emotion trait or is inflicting the stupefied condition on you, using the listed counteract rank and modifier.
the elixir attempts to counteract an effect imposing one of the following conditions of the imbiber's choice: clumsy, enfeebled, sickened, or stupefied.
and btw, the default is that if an effect is counteracted, all of it is removed. If you counteract a spell that inflicts multiple debuffs, you don't only remove one, the whole spell is removed (unless the cure says otherwise).
Counteract checks compare the power of two forces and determine which defeats the other. Successfully counteracting an effect disrupts it, preventing it from having any effect, unless noted otherwise.
There are some items that suppress conditions/effects, but I think anytime something invokes a counteract, it's not possible to only half-remove the mal effect(s), as counteracting undoes whatever is clinging to the creature.
The old alch mind-body cleansers had a bit of wording ambiguity/confusion as to their intent: "attempts a counteract check with the listed counteract modifier to remove the clumsy or enfeebled condition from a single source,"
which they have done away with for the new ones.
That old version could sorta be interpreted as "take the cleansed condition out of the malady's effect" which would sometimes not fully cleanse the clinging effect.
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Re: Dispel Magic:
It was outright incorrect of me to say the magical tag, as that's beyond the scope of the spell.
Dispel Magic "targets 1 spell effect or unattended magic item." If some magical thingy is not a spell effect, nor magical item, then it does not qualify.
That can mean things like magical monster auras, which are usually custom-written, are unable to be affected by that spell. But all their innate spellcasting can be disrupted. In part because of desgin reuse, monster magical abilities are very often innate spells.
Hazards/Obstacles you find out of combat are also almost always the result of a cast spell, or are a permanent magical item. I don't actually know of a case that not in those 2 groups, but I've definitely seen story-important magical items set to be artifacts that cause the spell auto-fail.
Overall, I have been very impressed with what that Dispel can do, including as a 120 ft 2A "cleanse" option to remove a potent combat debuff.
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So, in 90% of the cases, the Item level of the specific elixirs requires you to roll nat20s to counteract.
It's not quite that bad.
Bottled Catharsis and its counterpart, Surging Serum, got their mechanics smoothed out a bit over their APG versions, Focus Cathartic and Sinew-Shock Serum with the addition of an 8th level version.
2nd Level: Counteract Level 1, Check Modifier +6, can Counteract anything with a CL of 1 or 2 on a success. Typical DC of a CL1 effect is 15, meaning a 9 or better works. CL2 is 18, so a 12 would be needed.
4th Level: CL 2, CM +8. Counteracts CL2 or 3 on a success. CL2 still 18, so 10+. CL3 DC 20, so again 12+.
8th level: CL 4, CM +14. CL4 or 5 on a success. CL 4, DC 23, so 9+. CL 5, DC 26, 12+.
12th level: CL 6, CM +19. CL 6 or 7 on a success. CL 6 DC is 28, so 9+; CL 7 DC 31, so 12+.
Now, by this pattern, there really ought to be a 16th level version. There isn't. So, until L18, if you want to Counteract a L8 Condition, you need a Crit Success with this serum... which means a Nat 20.
18th level: CL 9, CM +28. CL 9 or 10 on a success. CL 9 is DC 36, so an 8+ will work. DC for CL10 is 39, so 11+.
So really, if you can use the at-level stuff, this isn't too bad. There are awkward levels, of course, because CLs increase on odd levels, and this Serum increases on even ones. So 7th and 11th levels, if you need to Counteract a CL 4 or CL 6, you'll need Nat 20s. It's worst for levels 15-17... yes, in theory, Greater Bottled Catharsis can Counteract CLs 8 or 9, but again, Nat 20s.
Invigorating Elixir will generally be better, because the Class DC - 10 formula will almost always be better, and (Class Level / 2, Round Up) for Counteract Level increases on the odd levels.
Contagion Metabolizer, the general anti-Disease/anti-Poison Elixir, is a bit more awkward. It only has three Tiers, not five... but its Counteract Level is (Item Level/2 round up), not (Item Level/2).
So the L5 version has CL3, meaning it works on a success for CLs 3 & 4... which generally will handle up to Level 9 when CL 5 shows up. The +11 check means a success on 9 (CL3) or 12 (CL4) before starting to need Nat 20s for CL5 at Levels 9 & 10.
Level 11, things start to work as expected again with Moderate. CL 6 and 7 on a Success, +19 on the roll is as strong as the L12 Bottled Catharsis... so rolls of 9 or 12 again. Gets awkward at 15th, just like Bottled Catharsis, but stays so for an additional level, because Greater Contagion Metabolizer is L19.
The advantage there being, Contagion Metabolizer finishes with a CL of 10, which makes CL 9 Counteracted on a Failed roll. The Modifier (+30) is also stronger.
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4th Level: CL 2, CM +8. Counteracts CL2 or 3 on a success. CL2 still 18, so 10+. CL3 DC 20, so again 12+.
No, the High DC at level 4 is 21 (20 at level 3). And High DC is what you generally face, spellcasters often even get closer to Extreme DC. So it's a 13+ against level 4 effects, 14+ for level 5, 16+ for level 16 and 20 for level 7 as they are generally level 4 so you need a crit success. And that's the minimum you'll get, if it's closer to Extreme, it gets very close to nat 20 only (nat 20 doesn't even work at level 7 against extreme DC).
I won't correct all your numbers, but overall you won't counteract on a check under 12.If you try to use it during combat, you'll quickly stop. Outside combat... who cares?
Unless there is a big level disparity, can't you counteract many things even on a Failure though?
Unless there is a big level disparity, can't you counteract many things even on a Failure though?
On a failure you counteract an effect of one level lower than the item. So nothing at level 1-3, a rank 1 effect at level 4-7, a rank 3 effect at level 8-11, a rank 5 effect at level 12-17 and a rank 8 effect afterwards. You'll rarely need to counteract effects of such a low rank.
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Thanks everyone! With your help, here's where I've been able to get so far with my new alchemist character:
• Brief Character Introduction
• Character Sheet
• Pathbuilder Progression
Any further advice you have for refining it would be most appreciated. In particular, I'm uncertain of what to do for equipment. I'm considering bumping it to 12 since it seems like a big turning point, and the extra gold can help better round out the gear (I've been using the Lump Sum option). I just don't know what alchemical and magical consumables to invest in, or what permanent magical items might best serve an alchemist. I'm SO out of my element with this class!
Additional Lore: Vending Machine
OH. Oh, it's that PC. Okay that explains some things. Lol, can't say I've every played something quite that off the wall before.
I certainly prefer multiple Retrieval Belts as opposed to single Greater Retrieval Belt.
That's because in the greater version, even though you can store multiple items, you can still activate and draw one of them every minute.
Errata shut down that exploit by changing usage from "worn" to "worn belt."
For unarmed attack users without specials attacks, like an Alchemist, I also like Amphisbaena Handwraps instead of normal ones.
Not familiar. Will have a look.
The Belts got errata-ed into Worn:Belt so you cannot stack them anymore.
You could go for an object familiar and call it your "item crane/conveyor/etc" and have them be a literal piece of the machinery. It really is a huge help to one's action economy.
If you *really* want to be able to chuck a lot of items, there's also Juggler's Reflexive catch. That'll let you use your Reaction to grab dropped objects in reach. Which means your familiar can Draw anything, drop it, then you catch it. A free action draw every turn. Also works if allies want to throw something. And technically works to catch your own bomb misses if the foe is within you reach, i guess.
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You could go for an object familiar and call it your "item crane/conveyor/etc" and have them be a literal piece of the machinery. It really is a huge help to one's action economy.
LOL. I had that same thought earlier today.
Any good use cases for an Alchemist with Trick Magic Item?
Seems odd to invest in the feat then not get some scrolls, a wand, or something similar.
Any good use cases for an Alchemist with Trick Magic Item?
Seems odd to invest in the feat then not get some scrolls, a wand, or something similar.
Many, many cases. Everything 2A is viable if you out-level it a bit.
Buff machine stuff is the most obvious.
edit: forgot link text can get mulched
But you might as well start with this AoN search and filter further, browsing the remainder when it suits your preference. Anything R3 and under is definitely viable / affordable in a wand.
I personally prefer going Witch and getting a list, which is as cheap build-wise as it comes if you want a familiar thanks to the Dedication granting one.
When it comes to archetype/TMI casting, you kinda want to find a neat combo or synergy that'll increase the value of the spell. I also like archetype casting because then you can hold Reaction scrolls, and Wooden Double (Dispense Decoy) seems to fit that PC very nicely.
For Alchemist, finding synergies is a bit tricky, but honestly, you are mostly looking for spells that look super flavorful for your PC anyways, especially if you give them a bit of (cosmetic only) homebrew paint.
If you ever need a fallback synergy w/ some power to it, look for things that trigger on damage, the one unique power of the Alchemist is that you still inflict damage on miss. Maybe a Witch focus spell.
Any further advice you have for refining it would be most appreciated.
I'd definitely not go for Bombs on a Chirurgeon. You will have crappy feat support and they fight for your Versatile Vials. Around level 6 you'll stop using them. Bombs are for Bombers only now.
Also, you take Armor Proficiency for heavy armor and will be around the frontline to deliver your Elixirs so choosing Strength as attack stat is not only more optimized, it's more in line with your playstyle.
Bombs have stopped being Alchemist default weapon with the remaster, they are no more compatible with the other Research Fields. Bestial Mutagen is now the go to Alchemist weapon.
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Any further advice you have for refining it would be most appreciated.I'd definitely not go for Bombs on a Chirurgeon. You will have crappy feat support and they fight for your Versatile Vials. Around level 6 you'll stop using them. Bombs are for Bombers only now.
Also, you take Armor Proficiency for heavy armor and will be around the frontline to deliver your Elixirs so choosing Strength as attack stat is not only more optimized, it's more in line with your playstyle.
Bombs have stopped being Alchemist default weapon with the remaster, they are no more compatible with the other Research Fields. Bestial Mutagen is now the go to Alchemist weapon.
How do I even get into melee though? Fight will be over by the time I can close to most of my enemies to accomplish anything worthwhile. I kind of need that expanded "range of influence" lest there be many situations where I can't really pull my weight.
I could drop the armor I suppose, but it feels totally against theme to dash across the battlefield and bite someone as a vending machine. I'm not even sure how I could describe that in any way that doesn't immediately break the character concept.
If anything, I'm thinking Uncanny Bombs and Supreme Invigorating Elixir should be my next feats. That way I can essentially "turret" most encounters. I can still always fall back on bestial mutagen as my last versatile vial if need be.
as a vending machine.
Ok, so it's a "fun build", nothing that tries to achieve effectiveness?
If anything, I'm thinking Uncanny Bombs
You won't be able to use Bombs, they use your Versatile Vials that you need to be a Chirurgeon. Bombs only work in the very first levels as a Chirurgeon, once level 6 you rarely have a Vial left to produce even one of them.
There's a real incompatibility between Bombs and the other Research Fields. You can jump through tons of hoops to get miserable effectiveness with them but I hardly see the point when other options are both much easier to use and stronger.
The issue is that bombs are 1A and ranged. Your other alchemy will involve way more actions spent/wasted.
Even if you've got an applicable elixir Additive, and even if a Bomber's bomb would be better, on most turns it's just a better action/spend for a Chir to throw a bomb. The gap between bombs and crappy healing elixirs is just that big.
Shooting a special bolt on turn 1 is a good option, but it is a 2A thing, and it's not usually 2x better than just opening combat w/ and Acid Flask if you care about pure dmg. Bleed bolts *can* genuinely outperform Acid Flasks 2x in a longer fight though. (and this is a prep item, so using ammo is also a thing to help reduce the burden on your VVials)
*Maybe* there is an argument for being more stingy with your VVials after L13, which is when Chir gets to auto-max their Elixir o Lf. But before that, your healing sucks, and just because your damage sucks, doesn't mean you get to spend your turns running around with low-impact elixirs, imo.
My Chirs used to hold onto their last VVial in case a heal was needed, but not after retraining into Improvise Admixture, which can be the emergency backup.
And just restating, it is also true that my Chirs both are trying to resist the temptation to pre-buff the party before a fight w/ Numbing, Vinegar, etc, while knowing that method spending of VVials is better than both bombs and elixirs during combat.
(Don't forget that because bombs scale so badly, that you can afford to buy/craft some r2 / L3 bombs and wear/throw them as you get mid level. If you party depends on a bomb debuff like Frightened, you can also sacrifice 1d of damage & buy/craft the tier below. Though do remember that your free Quick Vials are d6 bombs)
Even if you've got an applicable elixir Additive, and even if a Bomber's bomb would be better, on most turns it's just a better action/spend for a Chir to throw a bomb.
That's exactly what I say: Either you Bomb or your use your Elixirs (and not for action reasons but for VVs reasons as you say later). That's why they are not compatible. If you prefer to Bomb, play a Bomber. If you prefer to use your Elixirs, play a Chirurgeon. But you can't be both, this won't happen.
*Maybe* there is an argument for being more stingy with your VVials after L13, which is when Chir gets to auto-max their Elixir o Lf.
A Chirurgeon can outheal a Cleric starting at level 6 once you get Combine Elixirs. I agree with your argument prior to level 6 but then it's moot. That's also why I say that you will stop using Bombs at level 6 because that's when the choice of being a Bomber or a Chirurgeon has to be made.
My Chirs
I'm sorry, I don't disregard experience as a whole nor your specifically but I really think you're stuck with a preremaster Alchemist that you tried to reproduce with the remaster rules. Your build is not anywhere close to effective and there's no way to make it effective. Even you state that your Elixirs are crappy which is a clear proof that you didn't manage to combine bombing and Chirurgeon stuff.
Oh, my favorite fight opener is if I'm adjacent to the Monk and within bomb range.
In that case, my familiar "Draws" out of my hand, and I'll Double Brew Quick Bomb, either doing a Combine Elixir for 3 VVs turn 1, or a Sticky Slashing bomb for more Blood in the Water procs. (so for most w/o the focus spell, the Combine will basically always be more appealing than a Sticky bomb)
Using both items in 2 actions, and having a 3rd for something else, like movement. (or Spiked Gauntlet Injection)
The more I play, the more it's all about speed.
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It's not just about possible nova output w/ Combine. Efficiency does matter, it's a question of personal preference as to how much. It's also just a tactical / feasibility issue. Elixirs can require more actions for movement, get you into a bad position, and are incompatible with flanking.
While I agree that with Combine, you can genuinely burn 2 VVs and get alchemy into an action efficient power near spellcasting, it's not that simple.
And yes, the power per elixir is pretty crappy, which is as I said. If you literally double them, then I sure as hell hope they are worth the action cost.
It's just silly to say you can't mix bombs and elixirs, the whole point of full-book access is that it's always an open question, and imo, that is the heart of the Alch class. If you ever get that kind of dogmatic about your combat routine, that's a sign of one who's not enjoying/making the most of Alchemist.
The gap between Chir & Bomber is not so big as to make such an ultimatum, even at L10 when Bombers are doing 2x INT splash damage.
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And after the Remaster added infinite Quick Vials that can be done for 0A thanks to Quick Bomber + Double Brew, it's kinda hard to *not* throw bombs as a Chir.
It's not an Additive, nor even a flourish. Any turn you want to do Quick Alch, and have no MAP action planned, you *should* be throwing a bomb, either a VV option like Skunk or the simple freebie.
Chir post L13 is kinda stuck using bombs waaaay more than Tox or Muta. If you want to use your auto-max healing feature, that means doing Quick Alch. You have the choice to either throw that opportunity away and do nothing with it, or you can throw a bomb every time you Quick Alch for 0 actions.
It's just silly to say you can't mix bombs and elixirs
It's not me, it's the book. The book says: You have 2+INT VVs. If you manage to get significantly more VVs than that then I'll agree you can combine them, otherwise you have to choose: How many will be Bombs and how many will be Elixirs?
With other forms of combat, you can keep all your VVs for Elixirs.
And after the Remaster added infinite Quick Vials that can be done for 0A thanks to Quick Bomber + Double Brew, it's kinda hard to *not* throw bombs as a Chir.
I was really missing these 2d6 damage. Sorry, I prefer to deal 2d10 + 1d6 + 4 + Deadly d10. I'm aiming at effectiveness, not joke damage.
It's just silly to say you can't mix bombs and elixirsIt's not me, it's the book. The book says: You have 2+INT VVs. If you manage to get significantly more VVs than that then I'll agree you can combine them, otherwise you have to choose: How many will be Bombs and how many will be Elixirs?
With other forms of combat, you can keep all your VVs for Elixirs.
And after the Remaster added infinite Quick Vials that can be done for 0A thanks to Quick Bomber + Double Brew, it's kinda hard to *not* throw bombs as a Chir.I was really missing these 2d6 damage. Sorry, I prefer to deal 2d10 + 1d6 + 4 + Deadly d10. I'm aiming at effectiveness, not joke damage.
The bomb list has a lot of utility options, especially after L12.
You've got bombs to impose slash+fire+acid weakness, bombs that push 5ft and block the square even on miss, AoE Reflex save-or-blind, 2x2 slashing shard clouds for dmg each turn & area denial, etc.
The point is that because you have such a huge variety of bombs, it is *very* common to have a bomb that is contextually quite nice for the situation.
TBH, the "living vending machine" PC idea is absolutely perfect for Alchemist due to this. No one else in the system has that kind of constant access to that many possible rabbits-in-hats, and that theming perfectly emphasizes the very real fun of pulling just the right option out of a huge grab-bag like that.
Disregarding the entire category of bombs out of hand is silly and counterproductive.
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And it's just bizzare that someone so concerned with "proper" play can also so pointedly disregard what are literally 0A (bomb only) attacks, either done w/ a crummy 2/3d6 free bomb, or costing 1VV for the full list.
That kind of literally 0A throw would be considered a must-grab for anyone, and that's all the more true on the Alchemist.
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I strongly recommend that you refrain from making inappropriate comparisons like this 0A bonus ranged attack versus a buffed 1A STR Alch bestial bite. If you do make such wildly improper side-by-sides, you'll miss great little bonuses and opportunities like this one.
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Again, the Remaster Alchemist made Chirugeon into much, much more of a bomber than it used to be.
The comparison is not 2A Make + Throw bombs vs 2A make + feed elixirs.
The comparison is not even 1A Make + Throw vs 2A elixirs.
The "comparison" is that you have a 0A bomb throw chance every time you Q-Alch post L9's Double Brew. You can choose a 0VV freebie, but because it's a 0A bonus throw we're talking about here, it's super duper tempting to spend 1VV on a full bomb much of the time.
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The #1 problem w/ elixirs being a primary / "every turn" kind of desire is that you are stuck chasing your allies around. That really, really sucks. It can take a ton of actions, may not even be possible/feasible at times, and makes trying to have reach upon both the ally and foe for melee attacks is at best a PitA, but often is just not feasible. Every 2A elixir use means that by default you cannot both move and Strike. Item Delivery or throw-passing can help a bit with needing to be in multiple places at once, but only some.
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If you are struggling w/ running out of VVs, dip into an archeytpe, I'm begging you. I have both Timber Sentinel (which I try to keep as a backup), and Occult Witch. Most of my turn 1s when I'm not in reach of the Monk, nor in range of foes, nor any contextual opener, is kinda to default into "put Haste on the Monk, stab myself w/ Injection."
It's not just that Haste is that good, which it is, but it's that every time I use a non-alchemy option I give myself more VV budget to work with.
I can absolutely see an Alchemist PC with 0 outside-Alch options being crazy stingy with their VVs, to their own detriment. If you find that genuinely more fun, that's great. I can also guess that any Chir attempting to primarily occupy the roll of team healer is going to have a very rough time of it. IMO, all Alchemists are "Grab bag generalists" who can tilt the scales by investing in certain items, but never so much so as to scoff/disregard their full-list nature.
I personally think it's a lot more fun when I give my Alchemists (and VVials) some breathing room by finding a thematic archetype pairing for that character outside of Alchemist.
As an aside, I never played an alchemist so it might be a stupid question, but I don't understand the point for a chirurgeon of being able to use versatile vials as healing:
Your versatile vials can be used to heal a living creature a number of Hit Points equal to the vial’s initial damage. A creature can drink the vial for this benefit, or you can throw the vial at a willing creature within 20 feet as an Interact action to heal that creature
That's all well and good, but a versatile vial at lvl 4 will heal 2d6, and 3d6 at lvl 12.
Meanwhile, the same alchemist can use quick alchemy to turn a vial into a 3d6+6 heal at lvl 5 and a 7d6+18 at lvl 13.
So, sure, you use one action less before healing - but isn't the healing really tiny ? I mean, 3d6 at lvl 12 is on average less than 10% of someone's life.