Runesmith ideas, mostly about subclasses

[TheSageOfHours]

So I really like the themes of this class and the gameplay ideas, but it is definitely being pulled in many different directions, and quite a few of those directions are more of an idea and either do not have much support mechanically or the support is weak

Currently the runesmith is subclass-less like fighter and monk, and while it works for those classes I do not think it works as well for runesmith

From my own observations, runesmith wants at least 2 subclasses as a baseline. One that leans into the martial aspect and lets the class be more viable in melee, and one that leans more into the “caster”-y aspects.

This would be somewhat like warpriest and cloistered cleric, though that worries me because those two were notoriously limiting for cleric content, however off the top of my head it seems to be the most fitting

As of now runesmith has martial combat progression (which i am a huge fan of) but its ability to fight is diluted by handedness restrictions, HP, and poor saves due to being especially MAD

Other people have noted the problems with damage output from runes, so I will not get into that here, for me the only issue with the “caster” side of things is that more utility/buff runes would be cool

Another angle of theming for this class is in the name runeSMITH. There is alot of flavor here for a character that crafts magical items and uses runes to enchant them. I will admit I am very attached to this aspect of the class and it speaks to me the most, the idea of playing a character that makes magic weapons and armor for the party and can also apply short term runic enchantments to strengthen them etc.

There are some flavor feats and abilities for it but I feel like it needs a bit more. Something like what the thaumaturge can do for magic items (investing more and applying your DC instead of the items DC) would really complete the fantasy for me. Perhaps to not step on the toes of the thaumaturge it could only apply to items you have made or something

There is also the runesinger angle, from the feat that lets you use performance and speak the rune aloud. This is super cool, but is a whole different vibe, also performance is not an INT stat, i rewlly want it to be expanded though

Now my idea to solve this may be too indulgent but hear me out:

A two layer subclass system like psychic

For The first subclass you choose between two options:

-“engraver”gives you INT as KAS, crafting, has the various feats associated with the “smith” part of the class, rune tracing is free hand or crafting tools

-“singer” gives you CHA as KAS, performance, various feats that lean into the magic words part of the class, rune tracing is free hand or instrument

Then after there would be the second layer of subclasses:

-“runewarrior” includes engraving strike type stuff and martial feats. Perhaps just straight up the ability to trace with weapons, (note on this at the end). The smithing weapons feat would be in here and make those weapons count as tools for the purpose of handedness(and would also apply to appropriate weapons for the aforementioned singer subclass) . (Same note at the end). This subclass may also care more about etched runes than “normal”. This subclass would likely not have as much potential to use runes at range, manipulate them once they are out, and potentially have more limitations on tracing/invoking

-“runespeaker” this is the more “caster”-y subclass, it cares more about traced runes than “normal” and is better at applying them at range as well as manipulating them once they are out (moving them around and such)

NOTE AT THE END: a few other adjustments to make things make more sense

Currently there is no reason to occupy a hand with an artisans kit, I propose that using the appropriate tools gives some small benefit to incentivize that
Enough of one that it is useful, but not so strong that it is mandatory

Maybe a “singer” has a sword in one hand and a horn in the other, or You could have a character that applies runes with a paintbrush etc

This would allow the smithing weapons feat (which now has those weapons count as tools) to let the “runewarrior” to get the benefit of the tool while also using those weapons, so you could have for example the dwarf in the artwork with the two handed hammer, or maybe your character wields a hammer in one hand and a sword in the other for dual wielding style etc

Thanks for reading this mess of ideas lol, was looking to see what you all thought, its probably too much extra complexity but wanted to get my ideas out there. :)

[Castilliano]

Your ideas mirror many of mine, especially that of the value of definitive subclasses. I think the class playtest has most of the seeds present, but hasn't explored the ramifications of what it has nor extrapolated enough, ex. the Runesinger concept has been talked about despite being one feat with minor impact. I'll expound later.

[Martialmasters]

I generally hate subclasses (my favorite classes are probably fighter and monk for this reason) but I can't argue that it wouldn't fit for them here.

A runesinger and a runic warrior would be good

[exequiel759]

I've noticed Paizo doesn't seem to like playtesting subclasses because they rarely add them in the playtest themselves, though usually most of the content that ends up being a subclass in the final product appears in the early level feats of the class.

With this said, I agree with OP that its very likely Engraving Strike, Remote Detonation, and Rune-Singer end up becoming subclasses at release. However, I don't think a Cha-based subclass for Runesmith would fit. Rather, I see it would be way more fitting if it was something like use your proficiency rank in Crafting for anything that requires a proficiency rank in Performance (such as prerequisites) and use your Crafting modifier in place of your Performance modifier for all Performance checks like the chirurgeon alchemist does with Medicine. This mkeeps things more simple and avoids having to add a clause to every feat that says "If you are a rune-singer you use Performance instead of Crafting" or "If you are a rune-singer you use Charisma instead of Intelligence".

[Zoken44]

This mostly lines up with what I was thinking, having the Carver be a subclass focused on engraving runes, and the Skald be focused on tracing runes. Like the Carver would get an extra Rune perday they could only use to engrave, and the Skald could get a feat giving them a focus spell they can use to apply a rune, even if they have expended their normal nubmer of runes.

[Natan Linggod 327]

I think some subclasses that emphasize runes/symbols from cultural origins other than nordic/gaelic would be good.

Maybe a divine 'engraver' who uses fulu-like paper talismans. ala movie daoist priest.

Expanding on the Runic Tattoo idea : have runic/magic tattoos all over their body, gain some form of extra benefit when using the rune on themselves. like Dayak / Thai tattoos or the Patryns body runes from the Death Gate Cycle.

Maybe some form of 'corrupted' rune magic like those used by Death Knights in Warcraft.

As an aside, the concept of rune speaking, that of each rune being a word, brings the old Power Word (Kill/stun/blah) spells to mind. Imagine a subclass that can only speak runes. "My name is a killing word"-Muad'dib.

[_shredder_]

I fully support this, since a caster like runesmith who never strikes and fully focuses on runes sounds way more interesting to me than a martial with some rune abilities. It would be great if we could get both options.

[exequiel759]

I would like a "caster" runemisth too, much like I would want for the commander to have the option to allow you to stay away from combat too, though I think at this point I think its kind of set in stone the runemisth (and commander) is going to have a martial chassis anyways.

[DMurnett]

We already have plenty of casters in the game for a variety of niches, including Rune magic I might add (soon to be remastered). I say let martials have more interesting spell-like abilities.

[_shredder_]

I don't want a runesmith who is an actual caster with actual spells, just a runesmith who doesn't rely on their own weapon strikes and physical force at all and instead just fights only with (rune)magic. So it would be awesome if we had the option to trade the martial weapon proficiency progression for something else via cleric style subclasses.