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So we had a discussion at last nights game, and we can't find anything official on it, so if someone could please point us to something official, it would be a great help.
If a party is in an area of darkness, with no light source of their own, and encounters another party using a lantern, campfire, sunrod etc as a light source, from how far away can they see them.
The rules seem to imply that if you are in an area of darkness, that you can't see the other party at all until you are in the area of their light source. But we all know from experience that out in the woods, you can clearly see people around a campfire, yet be beyond it's range.
I know this is using real world concepts, but I'm curious if the game just left this out, of are there official rules for it.
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The rules on lighting define what you can see in an area that is illuminated by a light source, not what light sources you can see. There are no rules for the latter, and you'll need to use your discretion. In total darkness, a bright light source can be seen from a considerable distance.
The rules on lighting define what you can see in an area that is illuminated by a light source, not what light sources you can see. There are no rules for the latter, and you'll need to use your discretion. In total darkness, a bright light source can be seen from a considerable distance.
that's what I was thinking. Thanks everyone.
While you can see the light pretty easily from far away, you'd have difficulty seeing what is around that light. There are no actual rules for this, but I'd probably give creatures in the other light source concealment, depending on how well illuminated they are for creatures from that other angle. It's conceivable to be total concealment, if an enemy is closer to you than the light, but slightly off to the side, as none of that light will be bouncing off of them and into your eyes.
While you can see the light pretty easily from far away, you'd have difficulty seeing what is around that light. There are no actual rules for this
There are, though. Perception covers the DC to be seen at all. By default, a perception check to notice a visible creature in normal or bright light has a DC of 0 which is why you we don't typically roll for it. But the rules say that for every 10 feet you are from that creature, the DC increases by 1.
If the light source they are in is bright light, they are visible as normal. If the light source they are in is dim light, then they get concealment from attacks, and can make stealth checks to hide. You could also apply the "unfavorable conditions" rule to add 2 to the DC.
So if a creature is 300 feet away next to a bright light source, it's a DC 30 check to see them. If that same creature is in dim light instead of bright light, it's DC30 (or optionally DC32). If the creature is trying to hide using stealth, then the DC becomes their stealth check + 30 (or 32).
Notably, you still see the light, this is a matter of being able to tell "oh thats a guy holding a torch, not just some random magical emanation or other creature that is glowy."
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While you can see the light pretty easily from far away, you'd have difficulty seeing what is around that light. There are no actual rules for thisThere are, though. Perception covers the DC to be seen at all. By default, a perception check to notice a visible creature in normal or bright light has a DC of 0 which is why you we don't typically roll for it. But the rules say that for every 10 feet you are from that creature, the DC increases by 1.
If the light source they are in is bright light, they are visible as normal. If the light source they are in is dim light, then they get concealment from attacks, and can make stealth checks to hide. You could also apply the "unfavorable conditions" rule to add 2 to the DC.
So if a creature is 300 feet away next to a bright light source, it's a DC 30 check to see them. If that same creature is in dim light instead of bright light, it's DC30 (or optionally DC32). If the creature is trying to hide using stealth, then the DC becomes their stealth check + 30 (or 32).
Just note that by these rules, you have a roughly -51,744,000,000 penalty to your Perception check to notice the sun, and that penalty is peanuts compared to ones for the stars in our night sky*: The general rules just don't cover every situation.
On a sidenote, my group is currently playing Everday Heroes (5e) and their simple 'flashlight' rules are:
Flashlights and headlamps project light in front of you up to 60 feet. This negates the penalties for low light and darkness within reach of the device but makes the user visible up to a mile away in clear terrain.
Just note that by these rules, you have a roughly -51,744,000,000 penalty to your Perception check to notice the sun, and that penalty is peanuts compared to ones for the stars in our night sky*: The general rules just don't cover every situation.
Well, remember that the sun is a light source and not an illuminated object, so you are correct there are no rules for it, and the perception check doesn't apply.
But if you want to apply the perception rules anyway? Easily solved! The sun is roughly 36 octillion lumens, aka 3.6 x 10^28 lumens. It's assumed in Pathfinder that you can just see bright light, and a cloudy sky is a good substitute for bright light, and it has roughly 1000 lumens. So using the inverse square law, you can just give people a bonus of sqrt(3.6 x 10^25) to their perception check to see the sun.
Are you asking how far away the party without a light source can see the light from the lantern, or are you asking how far away the party without the light source can see the party with the lantern? Those are two separate issues. They will be able to see the lantern from quite a distance away assuming that nothing blocks the light. In order to identify the character in the party with the lantern they will need to be a lot closer.
Are you asking how far away the party without a light source can see the light from the lantern, or are you asking how far away the party without the light source can see the party with the lantern? Those are two separate issues. They will be able to see the lantern from quite a distance away assuming that nothing blocks the light. In order to identify the character in the party with the lantern they will need to be a lot closer.
What spurred the discussion was an archer hiding in the darkness in the woods wanted to know if he could see a party riding down the road at night with a few lanterns well enough to shoot one of them. We've always just allowed it, but someone asked if there should be a penalty of some sort.
from what we could tell by the "rules" that since he was in a dark area, he couldn't see them at all, but that didn't make any sense to us, hence the question.
While you can see the light pretty easily from far away, you'd have difficulty seeing what is around that light. There are no actual rules for thisThere are, though.
I'd like to point out that you butchered what I wrote to make it seem like you were making a point. The second sentence you quoted was only part of a longer sentence describing the real world situation that we don't have any rules for. In reality, it'd be much easier to see targets in the light from certain angles than from other angles, and the angle is even more important than the distance. We don't have rules for those angles.
Are you asking how far away the party without a light source can see the light from the lantern, or are you asking how far away the party without the light source can see the party with the lantern? Those are two separate issues. They will be able to see the lantern from quite a distance away assuming that nothing blocks the light. In order to identify the character in the party with the lantern they will need to be a lot closer.What spurred the discussion was an archer hiding in the darkness in the woods wanted to know if he could see a party riding down the road at night with a few lanterns well enough to shoot one of them. We've always just allowed it, but someone asked if there should be a penalty of some sort.
from what we could tell by the "rules" that since he was in a dark area, he couldn't see them at all, but that didn't make any sense to us, hence the question.
What type of lantern did the other party have? A bullseye lantern projects a cone of light, where a hooded lantern has a radius. If they were using a bullseye lantern in the front of the party the party itself would likely not be in the area of illumination. If they were using a hooded lantern, they probable were in the area of illumination.
In reality a character in an illuminated area can be seen by a person in darkness, but the character in the illuminated will have trouble seeing the person in darkness. This may not be stated in the rules, but it is common sense, and a reasonable GM will allow it. If the GM does not allow it, they are probably the type that argues that a dead creature can take actions because the book does not state they cannot.
If the party is in the area of illumination the way I would handle it would be to have the archer make a perception roll to spot a visible target with penalties for range. Use that roll to determine how far away the party is when he can see one of the characters well enough to attack with his bow.
In reality, it'd be much easier to see targets in the light from certain angles than from other angles, and the angle is even more important than the distance. We don't have rules for those angles.
Ah, I see what you're getting at. Yeah, there aren't rules for things like "is the target backlit", etc.
I'd like to point out that you butchered what I wrote to make it seem like you were making a point.
There's no need to be rude. A simple "you missed my point" would have sufficed.