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But again, this is a narrative, not reality. Pre-remaster, the Rogue was certainly not weak, but was never considered this exceptionally strong class either...Not sure where you've been, but rogue was considered the best martial class in the system next to the fighter until it was joined by bow magus. Rogue getting buffed saves and buffed gang up only further locked that in.
Generally speaking, I wouldnt say rogue is so much the favored child as martials are favored as a whole. Only nerfs they got were killing flickmace and crit specs. But buffs? Rogue fort saves and gang up, barbarian lost rage penalties and the action tax, assorted buffs to other classes. Casters? Witch made out like a bandit while everyone else has been almost static since launch or nerfed in some way. The focus point buff buffed everyone equally seeing as many martials either get focus spells naturally or dipped into champion, psychic or blessed one for easy points.
The buffed gang up has more of a noticeable effect than Rogue Resilience. It's damn nice.
The buffed gang up has more of a noticeable effect than Rogue Resilience. It's damn nice.But again, this is a narrative, not reality. Pre-remaster, the Rogue was certainly not weak, but was never considered this exceptionally strong class either...Not sure where you've been, but rogue was considered the best martial class in the system next to the fighter until it was joined by bow magus. Rogue getting buffed saves and buffed gang up only further locked that in.
Generally speaking, I wouldnt say rogue is so much the favored child as martials are favored as a whole. Only nerfs they got were killing flickmace and crit specs. But buffs? Rogue fort saves and gang up, barbarian lost rage penalties and the action tax, assorted buffs to other classes. Casters? Witch made out like a bandit while everyone else has been almost static since launch or nerfed in some way. The focus point buff buffed everyone equally seeing as many martials either get focus spells naturally or dipped into champion, psychic or blessed one for easy points.
At least the Gang Up buff was to help the party, not the Rogues themselves. This kind of stuff I can get behind.
It's just annoying seeing a class that really didn't NEED any buffs get a ton of them. While other classes could use some grease and small boosts to compensate for their increased complexity or restrictive action economy.
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The buffed gang up has more of a noticeable effect than Rogue Resilience. It's damn nice.But again, this is a narrative, not reality. Pre-remaster, the Rogue was certainly not weak, but was never considered this exceptionally strong class either...Not sure where you've been, but rogue was considered the best martial class in the system next to the fighter until it was joined by bow magus. Rogue getting buffed saves and buffed gang up only further locked that in.
Generally speaking, I wouldnt say rogue is so much the favored child as martials are favored as a whole. Only nerfs they got were killing flickmace and crit specs. But buffs? Rogue fort saves and gang up, barbarian lost rage penalties and the action tax, assorted buffs to other classes. Casters? Witch made out like a bandit while everyone else has been almost static since launch or nerfed in some way. The focus point buff buffed everyone equally seeing as many martials either get focus spells naturally or dipped into champion, psychic or blessed one for easy points.
At least the Gang Up buff was to help the party, not the Rogues themselves. This kind of stuff I can get behind.
It's just annoying seeing a class that really didn't NEED any buffs get a ton of them. While other classes could use some grease and small boosts to compensate for their increased complexity or restrictive action economy.
Cleric was the same. Their feats are better. The changes to alignment damage made them better generic blasters on top of the powerful healing.
We're running with two clerics in our group right now. They are blasting and healing with the changes. They make your group almost invincible now.
The issue with the new Gang Up is that it's SO good that it kinda kills alternative or creative tactics.
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The issue with the new Gang Up is that it's SO good that it kinda kills alternative or creative tactics.
Makes flanking so easy and it's so easy to acquire using Rogue Archetype. I have it on my fighter.
Not sure where you've been, but rogue was considered the best martial class in the system next to the fighter until it was joined by bow magus.
I've been playing this game and following these discussion spaces for a good long while now, and not once have I seen this take until this round of errata. The Rogue is certainly a popular class, but never ranked among the strongest, and was certainly not considered a developer favorite.
Generally speaking, I wouldnt say rogue is so much the favored child as martials are favored as a whole. Only nerfs they got were killing flickmace and crit specs. But buffs? Rogue fort saves and gang up, barbarian lost rage penalties and the action tax, assorted buffs to other classes. Casters? Witch made out like a bandit while everyone else has been almost static since launch or nerfed in some way. The focus point buff buffed everyone equally seeing as many martials either get focus spells naturally or dipped into champion, psychic or blessed one for easy points.
Ah, I see what this is about, then. I thought we were done with the whole "Paizo hates casters and loves martials" baloney a year ago, but I guess not. I could try pointing out how casters received plenty of buffs piecemeal (especially the Oracle, now one of the strongest classes in the game), how the FP buffs do in fact benefit casters more than martials, and how universal spellcasting proficiency was a deceptively huge buff to casters opting into other spellcasting archetypes, but let's be real, if you still believe in martial favoritism at this stage, rational discussion is not what will make a difference here.
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paizo doesn't hate caster
Mythic Resilience has entered the chat.
Paizo doesn't hate casters, but they sure do things that are very punishing to casters sometimes.
look at the insane buff oracle and sorcerer get in pc2
raising them to sf2e caster power level
paizo just hate wizard
worst caster in core rulebook and only caster weakened by pc1
And considering how many Oracle characters the remaster flat out broke by removing all their mystery benefits and the unique abilities that made them work... yeah. The idea that this is some kind of zero-sum game where Wizard players only get attention by pretending that the Oracle remaster was great is silly. Neither of them went very well, because while Oracle got lots of "generic spellcaster power", it also lost a lot of what drew the people that were already playing it to the class in the first place.
But if you want to talk about something on topic that Wizards are stuck with that is on-topic: Wizards are worse than Rogues in every defense except the one they're equivalent in (Will saves). That used to be two, but then Rogues got this fort save buff. Oracle at least gets to be better than Rogue at one of them (Will).
Don't forget Thief Rogues getting to add their DEX to Damage on Unarmed Attacks. That was also a huge buff they got in the Remaster just because.I legitimately thought this was how thief always worked, TBH. It took reading through people breaking down Remaster changes online to find out I'd been reading it wrong the whole time.
Only weapon builds before. Now you can take advantage of the Monk Stances with their good damage dice on Finesse/Agile unarmed attacks.
Tbh, I always thought thief rogues needed that change and I was happy to see it come a reality in the Remaster. A rogue on its own is effectively tied to d4 fist or d4-d6 ancestry unarmed attacks so pretty much always rogues were better using weapons. If a rogue wants to benefit from monk stances they need to spend 2 feats and wait a few levels. Yeah, there's monk stances that are better than finesse or agile weapons and don't require hands, but 2 feats being forced into an archetype is IMO a fair trade.