| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
The premaster Champion feature for years was (bolding mine):
Blade Ally: A spirit of battle dwells within your armaments. Select one weapon or handwraps of mighty blows when you make your daily preparations. In your hands, the item gains the effect of a property rune and you also gain the weapon's critical specialization effect. For a champion following the tenets of good, choose disrupting, ghost touch, returning, or shifting. For a champion following the tenets of evil, choose fearsome, returning, or shifting.
In the remaster it was replaced with (bolding mine):
Blessed Armament: Select one weapon or handwraps of mighty blows. You gain that armament's critical specialization effect, and you grant the armament a property rune of your choice from the following list: fearsome, ghost touch, returning, shifting, or vitalizing. During your daily preparations, you can change the spirit to inhabit a different armament, grant a different rune, or both.
This relatively minor wording change is an absolutely massive change in how these things work and makes the new version infinitely worse to the point of being nigh useless. Whereas before it was an extra benefit any Champion could add onto their weapon regardless of what kind, now it is just saving them a bit of gold and taking up an actual Rune slot - with all the restrictions and caveats that that implies. Everyone seemed pretty sure this was 'a change for seemingly no reason/too bad to be true' on release that would be dealt with via a Day 0 errata, but none came.
Then to make matters 'clearer' a few months later the Battle Harbinger Class Archetype for the Cleric came out, which has the Harbinger's Armament feat shown here (bolding still mine) at level 8:
Your deity grants you extra power that you have learned to channel into your weapons. Select one weapon or handwraps of mighty blows when you make your daily preparations. While in your hands it gains the effect of one property rune. Choose either fearsome, ghost touch, returning, shifting, or vitalizing. This rune does not count toward your maximum rune count, and this choice lasts 24 hours or until you make your next daily preparations, whichever comes first.
This is clearly a riff on the Champion feature and it uses the aforementioned original wording.
But despite the Battle Harbinger seemingly proving the case that this was the intended wording for all along not we not only did we still not get the errata people expected with WOI, but just the other day we got a huge errata drop without a word on this subject let alone any errata to it.So to quote the Rogue Resiliency errata thread: "What is it? Bug or Feature?" And either way, do any players here think the way it works now is a good change?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Whereas before it was an extra benefit any Champion could add onto their weapon regardless of what kind, now it is just saving them a bit of gold and taking up an actual Rune slot - with all the restrictions and caveats that that implies.
Or hidden option #3: Run it the way that Magus: Runic Impression works. You can use the Champion's Blessed Armament ability to give your weapon a property rune if it is full of runes, but you have to suppress one of the existing ones.
It is a middle ground between 'the ability is unusable if the weapon is already full on property runes' and 'the ability gives an additional rune above the normal maximum'.
Would be nice to know which option the devs intended to run the game with.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Whereas before it was an extra benefit any Champion could add onto their weapon regardless of what kind, now it is just saving them a bit of gold and taking up an actual Rune slot - with all the restrictions and caveats that that implies.Or hidden option #3: Run it the way that Magus: Runic Impression works. You can use the Champion's Blessed Armament ability to give your weapon a property rune if it is full of runes, but you have to suppress one of the existing ones.
It is a middle ground between 'the ability is unusable if the weapon is already full on property runes' and 'the ability gives an additional rune above the normal maximum'.
Would be nice to know which option the devs intended to run the game with.
Anything but pre-Remaster effect is bad, to be honest. If that is the case. At least with Blessed Shield gaining Reinforced Rune, you actually get more options of shield, while Armament occupying a Rune Slot pretty much forces you into mostly niche runes that feel nice when they're added on top of normal runes, but feel like dead weight if they occupy rune space.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
My guess is that it was always meant to provide a rune without counting toward the rune limits a weapon can have.
Well, then that’d be the premaster wording. But based on what they’ve said about Rogue Resiliency, I’m even more pessimistic about that now.
I have a Champion that reached 8th level right now and I've been very satisfied with the options of Blessed Armaments, specially Shifting Rune.
But I don't think I will feel the same way about it if I have to decide between its daily utility (hard to plan for) and an Elemental Rune that I very much intend to have.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think this is the case of overly lawyerly (coming from an IRL lawyer) reading of the rules. I don't see any reason for the granted rune to count against your rune total.
Because it doesn't say otherwise and that's how Runes work?
I think this is the case of overly lawyerly (coming from an IRL lawyer) reading of the rules. I don't see any reason for the granted rune to count against your rune total.
The worrisome part is that prior to the Remaster it stated you gained the effects of the rune. That means that you had an ability that was not a Rune, but used those mechanics for the sake of balance and simplicity.
With the Remaster, it says you gain the Rune, which is a small but meaningful difference.
I would like to think that it was changed to make the writing of the ability more elegant, but ended up causing confusion.
However, given the recent Rogue buff, I think there's more chance that the current Remaster reading is how it was supposed to be all along. After all, the class is called "Champion" not Rogue.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well that is how a rune as an item works. There is a limit to how many of those can be etched into a weapon.
The rune from the class ability isn't an item, it isn't etched into the weapon, instead a spirit inhabits the weapon and grants the rune. So I would say it doesn't count against the number of property runes that can be etched on a weapon. And for the same reason doesnt count against the number active rune effects on that weapon.
Blessed Armament says you grant a property rune. Nothing really prevents the feature from granting the actual rune engraved in the weapon and counting towards the limit.
Blessed Armament: Select one weapon or handwraps of mighty blows. You gain that armament's critical specialization effect, and you grant the armament a property rune of your choice from the following list: fearsome, ghost touch, returning, shifting, or vitalizing. During your daily preparations, you can change the spirit to inhabit a different armament, grant a different rune, or both.
Blade Ally, on the other hand, is very specific about its language.
Blade Ally: A spirit of battle dwells within your armaments. Select one weapon or handwraps of mighty blows when you make your daily preparations. In your hands, the item gains the effect of a property rune and you also gain the weapon's critical specialization effect. For a champion following the tenets of good, choose disrupting, ghost touch, returning, or shifting. For a champion following the tenets of evil, choose fearsome, returning, or shifting.
Do you see the difference? Your opinion of Blessed Armament not counting towards the max number of runes is purely due to you knowing previously what it did before. A new player that isn't going to check the legacy version will far more likely assume the ability gives the actual runes and the won't even have the know-how to understand why it isn't that good and catch the "issue".
Given the difference in text, I think that this was also intentional.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Blessed Armament says you grant a property rune. Nothing really prevents the feature from granting the actual rune engraved in the weapon and counting towards the limit.
Blessed Armament: Select one weapon or handwraps of mighty blows. You gain that armament's critical specialization effect, and you grant the armament a property rune of your choice from the following list: fearsome, ghost touch, returning, shifting, or vitalizing. During your daily preparations, you can change the spirit to inhabit a different armament, grant a different rune, or both.Blade Ally, on the other hand, is very specific about its language.
Blade Ally: A spirit of battle dwells within your armaments. Select one weapon or handwraps of mighty blows when you make your daily preparations. In your hands, the item gains the effect of a property rune and you also gain the weapon's critical specialization effect. For a champion following the tenets of good, choose disrupting, ghost touch, returning, or shifting. For a champion following the tenets of evil, choose fearsome, returning, or shifting.Do you see the difference? Your opinion of Blessed Armament not counting towards the max number of runes is purely due to you knowing previously what it did before. A new player that isn't going to check the legacy version will far more likely assume the ability gives the actual runes and the won't even have the know-how to understand why it isn't that good and catch the "issue".
Given the difference in text, I think that this was also intentional.
Yeah i see it. But the difference doesnt force any interpretation that the rune given is etched or that it counts against the number of runes (items) etched into a weapon normally
But to say the rune given by the spirit inhabiting the weapon etches into the weapon the same way an item is etched is adding in language that isnt there to make it more restrictive.I don't presume I know what any given new player will think about it but i can say my players would just assume its an extra rune from a cool ability.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As an aside, the new wording indicates that you can now hand your weapon to an ally and let them use it - runes and all.
The new wording doesn't include the 'in your hands' clause.
If some groups legitimately think this doesn’t count against the Rune slot limit despite not indicating that anywhere, then maybe it needs an errata for clarity alone one way or the other. If it had a sentence that said “this does not take up a rune slot or count towards your limit” then it’d be effectively the same as premaster and be fine - though it’d also be longer than just revering it to the premaster text to match the Battle Harbinger.
If some groups legitimately think this doesn’t count against the Rune slot limit despite not indicating that anywhere, then maybe it needs an errata for clarity alone one way or the other. If it had a sentence that said “this does not take up a rune slot or count towards your limit” then it’d be effectively the same as premaster and be fine - though it’d also be longer than just revering it to the premaster text to match the Battle Harbinger.
To me, it was the opposite. Before playing champion (pre-remaster), I was under the impression that Blade Ally gave the rune itself. Like it apparently is in Blessed Armament, only once giving a more thorough read while making my champion (still pre-remaster), was that I realized what the effects of a rune were meant to be.
Before Battle Harbinger I felt like this was probably a deliberate change, probably in the sense of "this is what they intended originally and we were all doing it wrong, so they clarified it."
... but then Battle Harbinger showed up with the old wording and now I don't really know what to think. Because it's not a confusion problem if an even newer thing can use the old wording still.
So is this a nerf or just a wording error?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Truthfully, I think the rewording was done to reduce word count and the rune count confusion is an unintended consequence.
The rule is you can only etch a number of runes onto a weapon equal to its potency rune value. But this is not etching a rune, it is being granted by the spirit.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
There is an argument to be made for blessed armaments with either wording to not count against the total runes a weapon can have etched.
From the start a champion can take a weapon with no potency runes and grant it a property rune using blessed armaments. It already doesn't play by those rules.
If blessed armaments only could be applied to a weapon with a potency rune and counted against the total property runes that it could have active then a lot more text would need to be added to explain it.
There is an argument to be made for blessed armaments with either wording to not count against the total runes a weapon can have etched.
From the start a champion can take a weapon with no potency runes and grant it a property rune using blessed armaments. It already doesn't play by those rules.
If blessed armaments only could be applied to a weapon with a potency rune and counted against the total property runes that it could have active then a lot more text would need to be added to explain it.
Sure, I get it. But a core assumption of the system is that players will have weapons with runes by the time they have access to Blessed Armament.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sure, I get it. But a core assumption of the system is that players will have weapons with runes by the time they have access to Blessed Armament.There is an argument to be made for blessed armaments with either wording to not count against the total runes a weapon can have etched.
From the start a champion can take a weapon with no potency runes and grant it a property rune using blessed armaments. It already doesn't play by those rules.
If blessed armaments only could be applied to a weapon with a potency rune and counted against the total property runes that it could have active then a lot more text would need to be added to explain it.
Right they would have a weapon with a +1 but does that assumption apply to all weapons they possess?
What about a champion that has a longsword and shield but also has a throwing weapon .They used some money to upgrade the longsword but not the throwing weapon but decided to use bless armaments on the throwing weapon for returning.
Doing so is perfectly fine right? The throwing weapon isnt even a +1 but blessed armaments still applies.
Or if the party has been captured and their equipment taken. The champion can imbue a stick they find on the ground with blessed armaments if they wish.
I would say etched rules for runes dont apply to this ability even with the new wording.
That's what I was meaning when I said that if we didn't have that original version of the text I don't think we'd have people expecting that the limit would apply.Truthfully, I think the rewording was done to reduce word count and the rune count confusion is an unintended consequence.
The rule is you can only etch a number of runes onto a weapon equal to its potency rune value. But this is not etching a rune, it is being granted by the spirit.
Actualy the rules say: "The number of property runes a weapon or armor can have is equal to the value of its potency rune."
it dont mention if they are etched or not.
and we dont need the old text since RAW it follows the intent of the developers.
I preferred the old one aswell, but we use the new version. just as we prob are going to have to deal with 10min cd sure strike
That's what I was meaning when I said that if we didn't have that original version of the text I don't think we'd have people expecting that the limit would apply.Truthfully, I think the rewording was done to reduce word count and the rune count confusion is an unintended consequence.
The rule is you can only etch a number of runes onto a weapon equal to its potency rune value. But this is not etching a rune, it is being granted by the spirit.
Actualy the rules say: "The number of property runes a weapon or armor can have is equal to the value of its potency rune."
it dont mention if they are etched or not.
and we dont need the old text since RAW it follows the intent of the developers.
I preferred the old one aswell, but we use the new version. just as we prob are going to have to deal with 10min cd sure strike
What page are you referencing?
I was using page 236 PCMagical enhancements make this weapon strike true. Attack
rolls with this weapon gain a +1 item bonus, and the weapon
can be etched with one property rune.
This continues in the upgraded descriptions using the words etched saying the amount of property runes that can be etched. The rune from blessed armaments is not etched.
The number of property runes a weapon or armor can have is equal to the value of its potency rune.Runes: GM Core pg.224
Thank you.
And I mistyped PC I meant 236 GM core.
So which section is providing the more specific information about property runes?
224 or 236?
I would say 236 since it describes how many runes may be etched into a weapon. This clarifies more specifically what is meant on 224.
Then looking at PC 2 pg 89
Blessed Armament: Select one weapon or handwraps
of mighty blows. You gain that armament’s critical
specialization effect, and you grant the armament a property
rune of your choice from the following list: fearsome, ghost
touch, returning, shifting, or vitalizing. During your daily
preparations, you can change the spirit to inhabit a different
armament, grant a different rune, or both.
These are clearly granting the weapon a property rune in a different manner than etching. Instead a spirit inhabits the weapon providing the rune.
Now I dont see any reason to limit the number of runes etched into a weapon because there is a spirit granting an additional one. The rune is attributed to a blessing from an inhabiting spirit rather than an etched rune physically placed on the weapon. And because I can cleanly narrative and mechanically distinguish this the alternative interpretation is not forced or the only interpretation possible.
Now let me argue the other way.
just above the blessed armaments passage is this paragraph.
Your deity blesses your service with a boon. This might
come in the form of a spirit that visits you and inhabits
your items or body, a mysterious divine tattoo upon your
body, or the like. Choose one of the following blessings, or
any other to which you have access.
This implies some sort of mark the spirit leaves on the weapon. Kinda similar to an etching. Given that a property rune is granted and the result is possibly similar or even the same as an etched rune the runes would require a +1 weapon at least to bless and follow the limit of runes per potency rune.
IMO the second argument is more of a stretch.
If that seems like a strawman it isnt cause I am not saying i am presenting anyone elses argument. You can make your own argument if you have a stronger one.
I think it just does not feel good to have a key class feature be "get x gold free at lvl 3"
(even if it may be a considerable sum with shifting as a lvl 6 item).
Yeah, exactly. The value of this class feature actually goes down as you level because the cost of those runes becomes trivial. The version that was "you just get an extra rune" was a unique thing that added something. "You have a rune slot reserved for a small list that you may not even want to use any from" is... not that.
"I refuse to believe in Power Creep, I do, I do! If I believe hard enough it will go away!"
But i feel power creep has taken hold of PF-2E lately for better ro for worse. The biggest complaints about this is Spirit Warrior Archetype somehow allowing you to Flurry of Blows with your fist, which came months after Monk Multiclass got nerfed in PC2 to having Flurry of Blows being on a 1d4 cool down. Monk should really be unnerfed because 2 feats for Tiger Stance D8 stance is barely any different then Elven Curved Blade d8 + d6 Fist.
Or Animist class or the Exemplar MC Dedication. Look at the Playtest classes this time around, Necromancer & Runesmith both are great. Even the Archetypes in Divine Mysteries seem...crazy strong, Temp HP equal to your level for you entire team, Enter a spiritual rage for +1 Spirit damage and temp hp equal to your level? Get Expert in 2 skills at level 2 as well!?
Battle Harbinger being decisive topic and them getting potentially the more powerful feats in the game. Strike to auto sustain an aura, Critically hit to increase the bonus, free rune, so forth.
"If this isn't Power Creep, then what is?"
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Battle Harbinger has been getting a lot of hate actually.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I’d add to this that lately we’ve seen several temp buffs that add a non stacking property rune which should also be errated so they don’t become useless. These are even worse than blade ally since they don’t really save your party gold. (since you still want to buy property runes because these buffs cost actions to activate in combat) Two that come to mind are:
1. Blade of the Heart, for the Starlit Sentinel Archetype.
2. The Kineticist Aura Kindle Inner Flames after it heightens at level 12 (this one is especially egregious since before level 12 it gives a flat 2 that does stack with runes, and then at level 12 it basically loses the damage bonus entirely because it no longer stacks. You also can’t choose not to heighten it.)
Yeah I would be surprised if the dev response is that they intended these abilities to count toward the limit.
I don't know if it is unrelated but I am mentioned the oddities of Blade Ally being nerfed while other classes - Battle Harbinger can get the SAME feature as a Feat but have it b the Pre-Remastered version. It seems odd that the Devs are nerfing things only for Archetypes to unnerf them. Champion - Battle Harbinger with Runes as Monk - Spirit Warrior - with their own version of Flurry of Blows.
I don't know if it is unrelated but I am mentioned the oddities of Blade Ally being nerfed while other classes - Battle Harbinger can get the SAME feature as a Feat but have it b the Pre-Remastered version. It seems odd that the Devs are nerfing things only for Archetypes to unnerf them. Champion - Battle Harbinger with Runes as Monk - Spirit Warrior - with their own version of Flurry of Blows.
Spirit Warrior is kinda strange indeed, but it's a bit restrictive on its own.
I’d add to this that lately we’ve seen several temp buffs that add a non stacking property rune which should also be errated so they don’t become useless. These are even worse than blade ally since they don’t really save your party gold. (since you still want to buy property runes because these buffs cost actions to activate in combat) Two that come to mind are:
1. Blade of the Heart, for the Starlit Sentinel Archetype.
2. The Kineticist Aura Kindle Inner Flames after it heightens at level 12 (this one is especially egregious since before level 12 it gives a flat 2 that does stack with runes, and then at level 12 it basically loses the damage bonus entirely because it no longer stacks. You also can’t choose not to heighten it.)
Considering the restrictions on Blade of the Heart, and it being a level 10 feat, AND requiring an action after transformation... yeah. It's current version if it takes up a rune slot is basically worthless.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know if it is unrelated but I am mentioned the oddities of Blade Ally being nerfed while other classes - Battle Harbinger can get the SAME feature as a Feat but have it b the Pre-Remastered version. It seems odd that the Devs are nerfing things only for Archetypes to unnerf them. Champion - Battle Harbinger with Runes as Monk - Spirit Warrior - with their own version of Flurry of Blows.
i question the notion it has changed at all.
The words are different but they dont change the meaning in a negatively impactful way at least as i see it.The champion chooses a weapon and the spirit resides in that weapon and you grant it a property rune. No restriction is mentioned here so that will happen no matter what weapon is chosen by the champion. Even ones that have no potency runes. Even if the weapon already has max property runes you still have to grant the weapon a property rune from blessed armaments after choosing the weapon. It doesn't say you cant do it if the weapon already has max runes from etching. it doesn't say to shut one off if you already have max runes from etching. so you don't do those things.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know if it is unrelated but I am mentioned the oddities of Blade Ally being nerfed while other classes - Battle Harbinger can get the SAME feature as a Feat but have it b the Pre-Remastered version. It seems odd that the Devs are nerfing things only for Archetypes to unnerf them. Champion - Battle Harbinger with Runes as Monk - Spirit Warrior - with their own version of Flurry of Blows.
i question the notion it has changed at all.
The words are different but they dont change the meaning in a negatively impactful way at least as i see it.The champion chooses a weapon and the spirit resides in that weapon and you grant it a property rune. No restriction is mentioned here so that will happen no matter what weapon is chosen by the champion. Even ones that have no potency runes. Even if the weapon already has max property runes you still have to grant the weapon a property rune from blessed armaments after choosing the weapon. It doesn't say you cant do it if the weapon already has max runes from etching. it doesn't say to shut one off if you already have max runes from etching. so you don't do those things.
Why change the words, and then change them back in Battle Harbinger, if not to change the meaning?
No restrictions are mentioned here, but a lack of restrictions is also not mentioned here. That means the only things we have to go on are the existing rules for Runes, and the fact that the wording was changed.
The rune rules aren't vague and have restrictions. These rules don't have anything in them to suggest they ignore those rules anymore, whereas they used to.
At this point, the main thing I have to go on to suggest the intent didn't change is that the new feature is "too bad to be true".
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well correct me if I’m wrong but it looks like the next step is for Maya to confirm for us how this works and if it’s intentional.
I think it’s pretty clear cut that it takes a slot and is worthless, and that at least someone on the dev team (who worked on Battle Harbinger) doesn’t like it being worded/working this way, but it seems like until we get back word from the devs this is primarily going to be an echo chamber of people who want it reverted with a side a debate on if it somehow works the old way anyways but now has awful and incredibly misleading wording for seemingly no reason (and thus should be reverted).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Something that gives me pause with interpreting Blessed Armament as a feature that takes a Rune Slot is because Runic Impression (Conflux Spell) goes out of its way to say that the Focus Spell takes a rune slot and suppresses existing runes.