Metamagic items Vs caster levels


Rules Questions


How much would it cost to have an empowered wand of acid arrows ??
And how much whd it cost to increase the caster lvl??


wand base costs is at (750 gp)x(caster level)x(spell level) with a max of 4th spell level (higher and you need a staff).
figure out the final spell level after the metamagic (with no trait\ability to reduce spell level etc) and decide on the caster level (must at least use minimum caster level for such a spell level) and fill the formula above.

for example, if it end as a 4th level spell and you want to use a 20 caster level (also make sure you have a caster with enough levels) then it would cost 750x20x4 = 60,000 gp base cost (that is to buy it, half for crafting costs).

remember to add any costly material (at 50 times for each charge)


The guideline formula for creating a wand gives it a price of (spell level x caster level x 750).
Acid arrow is a 2nd-level spell and requires a 3rd-level caster. This means a standard wand of acid arrow will cost 4,500 gp.

Empower Spell increases the needed spell level by two, making it equivalent to a 4th-level spell. This is allowed (meaning you can still have it be a 3rd-level caster for the wand, so will deal 2d4+50% acid damage over 1 round + an additional 2d4 +50% acid damage for 1 more round)

It would be (spell level 4 x caster level 3 x 750 gp) or 9,000 gp for as empowered wand of acid arrow (CL 3).

If you want to up it to caster level 6 (which is about the minimum needed to make it mechanically do anything different, which would be an extra round of acid damage) it would be (4 x 6 x 750 gp) or 18,000 gp for an empowered wand of acid arrow (CL 6).

It will cost half that amount if you are creating it. As a spell trigger item, you cannot ignore the prerequisites to make it by increasing the crafting DC by +5. Note that using metamagic can increase the effective spell level above the normal 4th-level limit (you can have an Empowered 4th-level spell in a wand) unless it was Heighten Spell for some reason, which actually increases the spell level.


The normal price is 4.5k for wand plus empowered which makes it a 4th lvl wand ?? Than if I want the caster to be higher like 6th lvl for the acid to do more rounds how much is that??


MR CRITICAL wrote:
The normal price is 4.5k for wand plus empowered which makes it a 4th lvl wand ?? Than if I want the caster to be higher like 6th lvl for the acid to do more rounds how much is that??

18,000 gp or 9,000 gp to create.


You seem to be having trouble with the math. Maybe giving you a bunch of examples will help. Unless otherwise noted, I'm assuming a wizard is the one crafting the wands.

The cost for a wand with a 2nd level spell at minimal caster level is:
750 gp * 2 (SL) * 3 (CL) = 4500 gp.

Note that some spellcasters get their spells a little later. The sorcerer for instance gets 2nd level spells at class level 4. So the minimum caster level for them is 4:
750 gp * 2 (SL) * 4 (CL) = 6000 gp.

If you wanted to increase the caster level to 6, then:
750 gp * 2 (SL) * 6 (CL) = 9000 gp.

If you wanted to add empower to a 2nd level spell, then it would increase its spell level and will raise the minimum caster level to 7:
750 gp * 4 (SL) * 7 (CL) = 21000 gp.

If you wanted a 4th level spell to cast at caster level 20:
750 gp * 4 (SL) * 20 (CL) = 60000 gp.


So a Maximized empowered magic missile wand at 9th lvl caster whd cost???


Do you have a problem with doing math? I'm checking because I thought by giving you multiple examples, it would clear things up. I was thinking you would be able to do the math on your own at some point.

A maximized (+3) empowered (+2) fireball (3) would be an 8th level spell. Wands can only be for spells 4th level or lower. Even if it were possible, you would need the caster level to be 15 to cast the spell (9 would be too low). It would be 90k for such a wand (assuming it was even possible).


As mentioned earlier, exceeding a 4th level spell would require creating a staff instead of a wand.

A maximized, empowered magic missile (6th level spell slot, so CL 13) staff would cost 400 x 6 x 13 = 31,200gp to create. This can be reduced by increasing the number of charges consumed to activate the spell, divide cost by number of charges. For example, making it a 2 charge use will reduce cost by half to 15,600gp to create. The new staff will still have 10 charges, but you will get only half the spells out of it before recharging it.


Pizza Lord wrote:

...

It would be (spell level 4 x caster level 3 x 750 gp) or 9,000 gp for as empowered wand of acid arrow (CL 3)....

Small nitpick, if the spell level is increased, in this case to 4th, the caster level must be one able to cast the same spell level

- 4th level spell - 7th caster level in this case (assuming wizard spell progression, sorcerers or others might have higher caster levels for 4th level spells).

so the minimum wand cost in that case would have been 750x4(spell level)x7(caster level) = 21,000 gp.


zza ni wrote:
Small nitpick, if the spell level is increased, in this case to 4th, the caster level must be one able to cast the same spell level

Maybe I am just a bit perplexed that in all of Pathfinder, it's impossible to have a wand that fires a single maximized magic missile (or only or two). Always five (because that's what you get at CL 9).

I certainly haven't played every adventure nor can I look over every loot list, but is that the case? There's not a single maximized magic missile wand that won't always be five missiles and always do 25 damage per charge. No possibility of one only shooting two or three maximized missiles?

I mean, I am not questioning raising the spell level to account for the virtual level of the metamagic increase (and thus an increase in cost to the item), but if you're going to nitpick, it doesn't say you must be able to cast the 'same spell level'. It says , 'to cast the needed spell.' The don't use 'needed spell level', or 'needed to cast a spell of that slot or spell level'. And they don't hesitate or neglect to use such language elsewhere.

Magic Item Creation wrote:
A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

Not saying it isn't how you're saying it... but if you're going to nitpick, the caster level for the new spell level/slot is not stated, only the needed spell, which is based on the caster class and does not change because of the virtual metamagic increase (except in the case of Heighten Spell, which is a special case that actually does make a spell into the desired level). A metamagicked acid arrow is still a 2nd-level spell in all ways and a metamagicked magic missile is still a 1st-level spell in all ways (unless the metamagic itself changes it). Just because it requires a higher slot doesn't change anything about what level of spell it is (to the caster).

I am just saying there's a chance that it's a fair possibility to have a wand that creates a minimum level metamagic effect (as long as the caster level is enough for the spell normally), and not just as a "The GM can do what they want," but as a reasonably and common sense conclusion. Magic items and their creation are not the same as just casting spells and don't have to follow the same rules, only the rules for creating magic items (sometimes you don't even have to know or possess the spell your item needs or casts, though that isn't the case in this example, since a spell-trigger item like a wand is more strict on requirements). You still pay the cost for the effective increase, but I don't see why you couldn't have a maximized wand of magic missiles (CL 3) that just fires two maximized magic missiles.

I am open to it either way, but one way just seems very narrow and incredibly restrictive to a system that usually seems much more flexible.


and the needed spell is an empowered acid arrow. which is a (bumped up)4th level spell. you can't cast it at 3rd level.

the words you posted:
" but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell."
to cast an empowered acid arrow spell the minimum caster level is 7th. (reminder that one can't use his class\trait abilities to lower the metamagic level when crafting)

Liberty's Edge

The needed spell is "Maximized Magic missile". Not Magic missile.
Maximized Magic missile is a 4th-level spell and has a minimum CL of 7.

FAQ wrote:

Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?

The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.

For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

In this instance, the increased spell level is a "disadvantage" (sort of) for the crafter.

Shadow Lodge

As a general rule of thumb, you just do not use wands (or scrolls) for offensive combat spells as they typically don't perform very well and generally are not worth the gold to acquire.

Applying Empower or Maximize metamagic is typically not a particularly good idea in general (either for items or actual spell casting): Empowering an Acid Arrow spell in particular is pretty much just boosting its damage from 'squat' to 'squat and a half' at a significant cost (there is almost certainly going to be a better option for that 4th level spell slot).

Wands are typically used for spells you will need to cast a lot and don't require more than minimal caster level and casting stats to be effective: Low level 'healing' spell wands are very common for this reason as they don't scale well with caster level and you are pretty much guaranteed to use all 50 charges in a campaign of any decent length.

Liberty's Edge

A wand with the Shield spell and CL 2 or 3 has worked very well for our paladin (he wields a two-handed sword).

A wand of Armor too, but often a memorized Armor and a pearl of power work better.

A wand of Acid arrow function is mostly to deal a bit of acid damage to stop regeneration at a good range.
Acid splash can do the same job but at a way shorter range.

YMMV depending on the campaign.


I think you should double check the shield spell. It has a range of personal, which means you can only cast it on your self. I don't think wands allow you to bypass that restriction.


The paladin is probably UMDing the wand on himself.


the only offensive spell wand I tend to go with is Ill omen or stuff with no save (or no save without interaction, like illusions).
Even then it's for the help to wield. the main character has better things to use his action on.

Liberty's Edge

Java Man wrote:
The paladin is probably UMDing the wand on himself.

Exactly. With a charisma of something like 22 and UMD as a class skill thanks to a trait, he was using it reliably around level 9. With a duration of 3 minutes, he was almost always capable of using the wand before any major confrontation.


Paladin knows use magic device? * shrugs * Makes sense.

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