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One imagines that the reason to not spend 3 actions creating thralls every turn is because the attacks your thralls create are spell attack rolls (so no item bonuses to hit) that invoke MAP. So after the first one, use you're mostly trying to clog up the battlefield for your enemies instead of doing anything proactive.
I have to imagine the normal rotation for a necromancer will be just "create thrall, then use your remaining 2 actions on a different spell"
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One imagines that the reason to not spend 3 actions creating thralls every turn is because the attacks your thralls create are spell attack rolls (so no item bonuses to hit) that invoke MAP. So after the first one, use you're mostly trying to clog up the battlefield for your enemies instead of doing anything proactive.
I have to imagine the normal rotation for a necromancer will be just "create thrall, then use your remaining 2 actions on a different spell"
it's a good way at levels 1 and 2 to do the 2-action save cantrips followed by a bow attack thing, but replace the bow with this cantrip for better accuracy
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One imagines that the reason to not spend 3 actions creating thralls every turn is because the attacks your thralls create are spell attack rolls (so no item bonuses to hit) that invoke MAP. So after the first one, use you're mostly trying to clog up the battlefield for your enemies instead of doing anything proactive.
I have to imagine the normal rotation for a necromancer will be just "create thrall, then use your remaining 2 actions on a different spell"
There’s a bodyguard feat and a reactive strike like explosion that are both reactions. You may want extra ones out round 1 to set up one protector and two flankers who also can blow up an enemy who does a RS trigger.
Those are level 4 and 6 feats, but simply setting up flankers may be a good contribution. They might soak up a hit or two as well.
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So any other caster is a better or at least equal necromancer to the class with that name...It does resemble Diablos necro, Bone spear, corpse explosion etc, Not the more 'traditional' carefully ritually prepared corpses for animation route.So the necromancer does not reanimate the dead, and the beings it summons are just tokens for abilities....then why call it necromancer?Why not?...Good thing nobody removed rituals. Or Summon Undead. Or Reanimator.
Aaand. You can put all of that into Necromancer too if you want!
Well, no, I wouldn't think so necessarily - until now we haven't had a bespoke class that is capital 'N' Necromancer (Wizard had a school, but was still a Wizard on the tin) and if Golarion's capital 'N' Necromancer is one that utilizes Thralls in this fashion, then they are alone in that.
Its Archetype will give you some version of it, certainly, but you still won't be on the same level.
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So any other caster is a better or at least equal necromancer to the class with that name...
Reading through the class you definitely do still get thralls which can be directed around and which attack. There is one that is a mass of arms grabbing whoever and whatever, with more HP, so it doesn't die in one hit, that moves every time you sustain the spell. The fantasy is there, but the baseline thralls are more basic undead with less power cuz you just created them
I would also like to say that this being named necromancer doesn't mean you must play this to be a necromancer. Play your class fantasy however you like and don't get hung up on the name of the class
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I just noticed runesmiths get a feat that gives them access to a handful of advanced weapons. I really like this! There's an absurd amount of advanced weapons given how little use you can actually get out of them if you're not a fighter, and it's not part of an ancestry.
I just noticed runesmiths get a feat that gives them access to a handful of advanced weapons. I really like this! There's an absurd amount of advanced weapons given how little use you can actually get out of them if you're not a fighter, and it's not part of an ancestry.
Every one of the is uncommon, unfortunately. The Gnomish Switchscythe and Kobold Tricky Pick are interesting, though, as is the Karambit
So any other caster is a better or at least equal necromancer to the class with that name...Reading through the class you definitely do still get thralls which can be directed around and which attack. There is one that is a mass of arms grabbing whoever and whatever, with more HP, so it doesn't die in one hit, that moves every time you sustain the spell. The fantasy is there, but the baseline thralls are more basic undead with less power cuz you just created them
Is there something apart from the listed feats and powers? I'm not seeing an AC, move, or attack modifier beyond create thrall.
I would also like to say that this being named necromancer doesn't mean you must play this to be a necromancer. Play your class fantasy however you like and don't get hung up on the name of the class
I could definitely see playing this with shards and calling this class a geomancer.
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I just noticed runesmiths get a feat that gives them access to a handful of advanced weapons. I really like this! There's an absurd amount of advanced weapons given how little use you can actually get out of them if you're not a fighter, and it's not part of an ancestry.Every one of the is uncommon, unfortunately. The Gnomish Switchscythe and Kobold Tricky Pick are interesting, though, as is the Karambit
I'll take what I can get. Also, it sets precedent for other classes to get something like this in the future. (Magus, please?)
And - I'd bet money Battlecry! will have a wheelbarrow's worth of new weapons in it.
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So any other caster is a better or at least equal necromancer to the class with that name...Reading through the class you definitely do still get thralls which can be directed around and which attack. There is one that is a mass of arms grabbing whoever and whatever, with more HP, so it doesn't die in one hit, that moves every time you sustain the spell. The fantasy is there, but the baseline thralls are more basic undead with less power cuz you just created themIs there something apart from the listed feats and powers? I'm not seeing an AC, move, or attack modifier beyond create thrall.
I would also like to say that this being named necromancer doesn't mean you must play this to be a necromancer. Play your class fantasy however you like and don't get hung up on the name of the classI could definitely see playing this with shards and calling this class a geomancer.
Some of the focus spells will say something like "when you sustain do x" and that will usually be a move or an attack. Another is one that creates thralls with spears that do 5 damage no attack roll when someone moves, a little area denial. The one I referenced is called something like "grasping limbs" and it has base 40 HP and grabbles everything around it
Edit:
Conglomerate of Limbs
You conjure forth a Huge thrall that has 40 Hit Points. Whenever an enemy begins its turn adjacent to this thrall, it must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw or become grabbed by the thrall for 1 round or until it Escapes. Once per round on subsequent turns, you can Sustain the spell to have the thrall Stride up to 15 feet, using its many limbs to drag itself across the ground.
Lasts a minute, heightening every level give 10 more hp. Level 8 feat
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I would also like to say that this being named necromancer doesn't mean you must play this to be a necromancer. Play your class fantasy however you like and don't get hung up on the name of the class
I'm imagining an awakened giant spider that is a better swarmkeeper. Instead of undead thralls, she sends out her brood of spiderlings. Body shield could be the spiderlings coating their mother and protecting her while muscle barrier could the spiderlings protecting allies. Necrotic bomb wouldn't be them exploding, so much as disbanding to regroup elsewhere later. And so on.
It's Monday!!!
EDIT:
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It's Monday!!!
EDIT:
Blog posts announcing a playtest (and the PDF, and the forums) are usually after lunchtime for Paizo.
I'm looking at the Grim Fascinations and they are a mixed bag.
Bone Shaper has the best focus spell in Bone Spear,but the general feat and Thrall Enhancement kinda suck,in my opinion.
I think giving Skeletal Thralls a Step would be a better Enhancement.
Incredible Initiative would be a better general feat.
Flesh Magicians focus spell is good, except that it targets Fortitude.
The general feat is great, the Thrall Enhancement can change a battlefield, clogging a corridor even.
Spirit Mongers Life Tap seems underwhelming.
Drained does not do much damage, again it targets Fortitude(Why not Will?).
The Enhancement is pretty good for targeting weaknesses or avoiding resistances and immunities
Diehard is just good.
Life Tap seems a little weak. Thematically, it's cool. But for an equal level enemy... well, creatures tend to have 15-20 HP per level, so on a failure you're dealing 10-15% of their health in damage and healing an ally by about 10%. It doesn't do a lot of healing or damage, so I worry that it's not going to feel very impactful a lot of the time. I'd straight up just double the healing on it probably? (I figure as is, a level 2 target is worth 4 HP healed... if they fail the save. Lay on Hands gives back 6 for a third of the actions spent, plus a significant AC bonus. The comparison is of course worse at odd levels due to the way the two scale, but it caps at 40 HP versus 60 HP at 20.) Double healing makes it give 4-12 HP in the same situation (I suppose this might actually be a bit too much? Maybe it should heal a constant amount as long as the enemy took damage, similar to the Paradox of Opposites witch, since it's easier to adjust that way)
Upping the healing could work, or if they made it a one action spell, it becomes an unique set up for spells with Fortitude saves.
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One minor thing I'd like to note about necromancer: by default, thralls can't do anything after being summoned, and that feels kind of weird from a narrative standpoint (especially given that they contribute to flanking as if they could attack). In terms of direct combat threat, creatures should basically be treating them like statues.
You can probably justify this with something along the lines of, like, "creatures need to keep an eye on the thralls because they don't know whether or not the summoner is going to do some weird magic thing with them", but I think it'd be easier to just have Create Thrall say that, if you Sustain the spell, an existing thrall can Stride and/or Strike. Would make the thralls feel more like actual present creatures instead of just a vague spell effect (and would also help in niche situations where you don't have room to create a new thrall next to a creature for whatever reason, e.g a fight in a tight hallway), but it'd be fine in terms of gameplay balance because it'd be functionally similar to just summoning an entirely new thrall.
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Thralls do stuff when the Necromancer uses them to do stuff, like with grave spells, consume thrall, reach of the dead, body shield, etc.
They're more of a resource that takes up space on the battlefield than a creature. You don't necessarily want enemies to pay attention to them, because then you have to create more of them before you can use them as a resource.
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Hitlinemoss, that comes back to the repeated question of how well will enemies determine what a Thrall is? A wobbly post that flanks. Or more accurately, isn't: a creature with agency/actions/durability/etc.
It's a new class, so Thralls can't be to prevalent in Golarion, and if one is shaping the Thralls to one's whims, they can resemble most any undead (some of which have such diversity already that it should take a Recall Knowledge check that no enemies will bother to spend the action on). Plus summoning undead w/o a body has been around awhile, so that seems the more likely assumption (and that's only for savvy enemies). Since Thralls do attack upon arrival, their initial appearance marks them as a threat.
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Hitlinemoss, that comes back to the repeated question of how well will enemies determine what a Thrall is? A wobbly post that flanks. Or more accurately, isn't: a creature with agency/actions/durability/etc.
It's a new class, so Thralls can't be to prevalent in Golarion, and if one is shaping the Thralls to one's whims, they can resemble most any undead (some of which have such diversity already that it should take a Recall Knowledge check that no enemies will bother to spend the action on). Plus summoning undead w/o a body has been around awhile, so that seems the more likely assumption (and that's only for savvy enemies). Since Thralls do attack upon arrival, their initial appearance marks them as a threat.
I'm mostly just trying to say that it'd make more sense for thralls to be able to attack more than once (with the same action cost as summoning a new thrall), both for the sake of verisimilitude and because it would make thralls being able to flank more intuitive.
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Another is one that creates thralls with spears that do 5 damage no attack roll when someone moves, a little area denial.
Small correction: The 5 damage happen when a creature Strikes, not moves.
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So far from what I've seen, there's only two things I think the Necromancer absolutely needs. Something like "Generate Lesser thrall", or a chaveat to create thrall. What I'm thinking of here is the Kineticists Base Kinesis. A bunch of mostly flavorful low impact things that any Kineticist can do that makes them feel more like a kineticist. Having the ability to have a thrall that can move slowly, carry things, perform rudimentary tasks, etc, that don't take much focus from you, but once a stressful situations, like combat, starts (when you roll initiative) or during exploration, the lesser thrall collapses.
Also, a class feat that grants a familiar. Despite being HEAVILY Grave spell focused, it lacks one of the most common ways casters regain focus points outside of refocusing. I'm not even talking about making this a base class feature, but an optional level one feat, to compete with the extra useful undead lore, or dipping into one of the other subclasses.
Don't get me wrong, I'm LOVING the Necromancer. and I understand others smarter than me may have thoughts on balance that are way more useful, but these are things I noticed and wanted.
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Necro is a pretty awesome class. Seems fairly finished. I could be selfish and say I'd want it to drop the spell slots and become a martial but that's a preference more than an actual criticism. As a caster, I'm glad the two slot chassis can pay for more wild stuff like this. I'm excited to grab some armor general feats and roll death knights with this class. Right on!
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So far from what I've seen, there's only two things I think the Necromancer absolutely needs. Something like "Generate Lesser thrall", or a chaveat to create thrall. What I'm thinking of here is the Kineticists Base Kinesis. A bunch of mostly flavorful low impact things that any Kineticist can do that makes them feel more like a kineticist. Having the ability to have a thrall that can move slowly, carry things, perform rudimentary tasks, etc, that don't take much focus from you, but once a stressful situations, like combat, starts (when you roll initiative) or during exploration, the lesser thrall collapses.
Also, a class feat that grants a familiar. Despite being HEAVILY Grave spell focused, it lacks one of the most common ways casters regain focus points outside of refocusing. I'm not even talking about making this a base class feature, but an optional level one feat, to compete with the extra useful undead lore, or dipping into one of the other subclasses.
Don't get me wrong, I'm LOVING the Necromancer. and I understand others smarter than me may have thoughts on balance that are way more useful, but these are things I noticed and wanted.
Two birds with one stone, undead familiar. A little Manfred, a lil skeleman who helps out in small ways
Necro is a pretty awesome class. Seems fairly finished. I could be selfish and say I'd want it to drop the spell slots and become a martial but that's a preference more than an actual criticism. As a caster, I'm glad the two slot chassis can pay for more wild stuff like this. I'm excited to grab some armor general feats and roll death knights with this class. Right on!
I could see something not too disimilar to the battle harbinger and warpriest cleric kind of option called "Grave Knight" or "Death Knight" that trans the slots for martial ability
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I was always a huge fan of the Dread Necromancer, so this class plus the Lich Dedication could be fun.
A little Manfred, a lil skeleman who helps out in small ways
What an awesome little guy. We could all use a Manfred in our lives.
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Necromancer does seem to have a couple feats to support weapon use. The conjure bone weapon, explode thralls to add void damage to attacks, etc.
The spirit type having a level 12 feat to gain ghost resists when you detonate thralls is interesting for that too. Resisting most damage is very nice.
The level 12 feats of other two subclasses are also quite good for close combat with the skeleton subclass feat granting permanent damage resistance against 2 types. And the meat one giving you more HP and sickening all enemies adjacent to you when you destroy a thrall.
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I feel like a feat like Gifted Power, Divine/Primal Evolution, or Master Summoner that provides an extra Summon Undead slot might be warranted. A summon Lesser thrall in the vein of base kinesis as Zoken44 suggests also seems quite appropriate.
I've rewritten this several times. It gets long winded.
I've been crunching numbers (I know, white math bad) and while a great sword necromancer hits ok. I find the amount of investment needed to be problematic, both in thralls and actions and feats (not just class feats).
A simple one hand air repeater has ok value as an easy easy to cull multiple thralls if you find you have too many.
Or simply summoning more thrall to do a little damage and have more resources and spending a cantrip or focus spell or spell slot.
The latter two have the benefit of being ranged and you really don't have to sacrifice any tankiness if you don't want to.
So I don't exactly feel any incentive towards playing melee.
I'd rather summon thrall into necrotic bomb I think.
Yeah, there's martial imagery, but without the proficiency (et al) to back up that playstyle. One might imagine one's Thralls carrying (faux) scythes and whatnot though, and that's pretty cool.
What I'd like to see though is some ability similar to the spells Weapon Storm or Hand of the Apprentice, where you're using your spell attack proficiency to attack with a weapon. That'd likely take a Focus Point when there's too much competition, so hopefully another cost could be worked out. Perhaps it's an attack through a Thrall's "borrowing" your weapon, saccing a Thrall to gain the martial boost, combining a melee attack w/ a Thrall's (so no MAP until after both resolved). Yes, there's room for a feat chain that supports pseudo-martial Necromancers. Add some life draining for durability, teamwork tricks with Thralls (perhaps for Athletics maneuvers). It may be imbalanced to make them equal to a Druid invested in Wildshape (who has to give up spells), but if the attacks cost enough actions & Thralls to make casting spells prohibitive, that's a similar cost. I could also see tapping into a deathly Battle Form*, which OMG now I want to see happen. "I go Reaper."
*I'm thinking in terms of cutting off casting more than full blown transformation, but it'd have to come with similar scale benefits. I'd prefer to keep one's own weapon (perhaps a designated one), but understand it Strikes would need to be preset for balance purposes. I could see an archetype or subclass for this too so it takes more commitment.
ETA: Have no idea how my avatar swapped. Swapping back.
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So far from what I've seen, there's only two things I think the Necromancer absolutely needs. Something like "Generate Lesser thrall", or a chaveat to create thrall. What I'm thinking of here is the Kineticists Base Kinesis. A bunch of mostly flavorful low impact things that any Kineticist can do that makes them feel more like a kineticist. Having the ability to have a thrall that can move slowly, carry things, perform rudimentary tasks, etc, that don't take much focus from you, but once a stressful situations, like combat, starts (when you roll initiative) or during exploration, the lesser thrall collapses.
Also, a class feat that grants a familiar. Despite being HEAVILY Grave spell focused, it lacks one of the most common ways casters regain focus points outside of refocusing. I'm not even talking about making this a base class feature, but an optional level one feat, to compete with the extra useful undead lore, or dipping into one of the other subclasses.
Don't get me wrong, I'm LOVING the Necromancer. and I understand others smarter than me may have thoughts on balance that are way more useful, but these are things I noticed and wanted.
Necros have an option that lets them blow up a thrall to get a focus point back once every 10 minutes. That is way better than what a familiar can do for less cost feat wise. Still having a lil undead familiar would make a ton of sense so adding a baseline necro familiar feat would make total sense.
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Yeah, I could see them getting a Feat chain for a Familiar in the final release, just there's probably no real need to playtest it since they already know how something like that functions.
The class might lose steam in long combats, but normal encounters should be fine. If you're casing a focus spell every round (and Consume a thrall somewhere in there) you don't run into an issue until round five and that's a pretty rare combat.
At a glance, I kind of wish they had a few more sustainable options at low level, and that their melee options came online a bit sooner and/or had a bit more juice... but this is a hype thread and the playtest will start soon enough.
I love what I'm seeing from both classes at a glance though, the ideas are very cool.
Honestly for a low level caster their sustainability at low levels seems really good. You are going to have minimum 2 focus points off the jump and if you are a human maybe 3 because even their level 1 feats are packed with focus spells.
It is going to be interesting to see how good it feels to have a boatload of focus spells by mid levels but early levels I think necros are very sustainable.
I see some feats that work when the Thrall is adjacent to the Necromancer or an ally.
This plus the Thrall's lack of movement makes the ability to carry a Thrall desirable.
They can already be Small, but what do the weight?
I know, it's crazy, but I love the idea of a necromancer draped in ectoplasmic spirits that can be sacrificed at a moments notice.
It could be worthwhile to carry a skeletal viper or dismembered head in one hand.
A magical bag full of expendable spirits perhaps?
Can you throw them?
I think someone mentioned that each Thrall can only attack once.
I believe any Thrall created by this spell can attack once per casting of the spell.
So, if you have a Thrall within reach of a target , you can cast the spell, create a Thrall next to you, then attack with the Thrall next to the target.
If a foe ignores the Thrall next to them in favor of attacking a PC, they are at risk of more attacks.
Thralls are like pawns,ignore them and they get more dangerous, attack them and you are ignoring a PC
Id like to see Thralls have a way to disadvantage attacks against allies.
I guess they do count as (Lesser?)Cover, and that ain't nothing.
Bring able to "stick" Thralls to a target would be a great upgrade, without granting them movement of their own.
Is there a way to see through a Thralls senses?
That would be thematic.
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Necromancer is going to be a real pain to automate in Foundry.
Honestly I think the bookkeeping aspect is probably the reasons the thralls are stationary unless acted upon by some specific command/spell. If you had the option to move them all around at will the amount of time/energy to deal with them would be problematic.
You could probably automate it like dropping terrain objects. Mostly just there doing nothing but can be acted upon to do specific things.
You are going to have minimum 2 focus points off the jump and if you are a human maybe 3 because even their level 1 feats are packed with focus spells.
Where's the second focus spell coming from? You only start with one focus spell ans one point unless I'm missing something. Human can get you to two, but that seems to be the maximum for level 1.
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But that costs a total of 2 actions. That's quite different from just having 2 focus points.
I feel like a feat like Gifted Power, Divine/Primal Evolution, or Master Summoner that provides an extra Summon Undead slot might be warranted. A summon Lesser thrall in the vein of base kinesis as Zoken44 suggests also seems quite appropriate.Yeah, I feel like that's a very intuitive feat to offer players to opt in to what they expect from the class.
I feel like there's also something to be said about offering an undead companion feat chain. I feel as if a LOT of players would be drawn to the dedication feat, because "a single, more unique undead that I can have a dynamic with" is a big character fantasy/roleplay dynamic the class doesnt currently support.
I can understand why they WOULDN'T- multiple thralls AND a permanent companion can make for a truly dizzying amount of positioning & action economy choices, and the class REALLY wants every action it can get at early levels. They tutorialize you pretty hard early on to do Summon Thrall + Two Action Spell, usually a focus spell.
However, even beyond the mechanical advantages of having a companion, I think it's worth considering in the main class. People would want to play a Necromancer riding a skeleton horse so badly, and not all of them would know to go to a whole separate book for that.
I feel like there is the undead eidolon or even an undead companion dedication already for such things. I imagine they felt it was a lot of overlap for something entirely separate from their main goals on the design.
You are going to have minimum 2 focus points off the jump and if you are a human maybe 3 because even their level 1 feats are packed with focus spells.Where's the second focus spell coming from? You only start with one focus spell ans one point unless I'm missing something. Human can get you to two, but that seems to be the maximum for level 1.
I think I was confusing the cantrip as giving a focus. Was working with demi plane. If you go human pretty easy to get to 2 focus points the one you are given and then using human to grab a second one.
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I would also like to say that this being named necromancer doesn't mean you must play this to be a necromancer. Play your class fantasy however you like and don't get hung up on the name of the classI'm imagining an awakened giant spider that is a better swarmkeeper. Instead of undead thralls, she sends out her brood of spiderlings. Body shield could be the spiderlings coating their mother and protecting her while muscle barrier could the spiderlings protecting allies. Necrotic bomb wouldn't be them exploding, so much as disbanding to regroup elsewhere later. And so on.
Except of course that they are Undead (so RK Religion or Undead Lore)
They are immune to bleed, death effects, disease, mental, and poison.
And positive/vitality energy damages them while negative/void energy heals them
:-(