Overtuned or undertuned multiclass archetypes / dedications?

[Tarluk]

The talk surrounding the Exemplar dedication being very frontloaded and Paizo's design philosophy on multiclass dedications to maintain niche protection ending up with many varying power levels has made me wonder which multiclass archetypes could use a bit of adjustment, and which are in just the right place.

Summoner and Magus leave a lot to be desired, to the point where I struggle to see how Summoner's dedication could be useful at all. And Magus' spellcasting feats being bounded seems like overkill when you only get a single use of Spellstrike anyway.

Investigator seems quite powerful, being able to take both of the class's main features at level 4 with little restriction; the only one being that you can't use Intelligence instead of Strength or Dexterity, which seems rather trivial for Fighters or Champions.

Fighter seems rather odd, it's a feat tax for most classes which already has martial weapon training, and the martial profiency doesn't scale even though many other weapon training dedications already have a simple solution for this, so it's still a feat tax for everyone else too. At least it's a fairly simple homebrew fix.

And I'm not sure if I'm missing something with Barbarian, but I don't really see how just the base Rage with nothing else is all that useful; +2 damage that doesn't scale at the cost of having -1 AC *and* having to spend an action to get it? And only being able to get the Instinct ability with nothing else alongside it at level 6? I don't really see how this is worth it for anyone outside of a Fighter with free archetype. (And the suggestion of spellcasters being able to use rage as a last resort, while cool as hell in concept, is just absurd with the current implementation.)

Would be curious to hear y'all's thoughts on the multiclass dedications and archetypes. :)

[Blave]

Magus is great! Having only one spellstrike per encounter is fine if you consider that most fights are decided by turn 3 and that you most likely have stuff from your primary class to do on the other two turns. Grabbing some of the magus focus spells is also very good for many martials. Shielding Strike for a action efficient shield usage or force fangs for a guaranteed damage third action will definitely come in handy for everyone.

The spellcasting isn't great, but the archetype itself has good stuff to offer.

[Deriven Firelion]

Rogue archetype is very good for almost every class. Good feats, able to work skills up, lots of bang for the buck.

Champion archetype can be good for martials who want to pick up Champion's reaction without being a champion. A few good low level feats like Aura of Courage.

Bard isn't bad for charisma classes. Can grab Courageous Anthem for a group buff.

Psychic archetype to grab some quality cantrips. Psychic feats are terrible, but the cantrips can be good, especially imaginary weapon for a magus.

Investigator falls into a similar area as the rogue with weaker feats. But good for skill increases.

I took Magus on a fighter. One spellstrike per encounter isn't bad with fighter accuracy. Feats aren't much use though.

Never too many of the others. They don't seem to provide much unless you want some casting. Then cleric or bard or something that can provide heroism or other buffs is not bad for a martial.

[PossibleCabbage]

The ones that stand out as actively bad are the fighter dedication (it's worse than the "weapon training" general feat if what you're after is martial weapons) and the Swashbuckler dedication (Panache does nothing until you have a finisher.)

[Dubious Scholar]

Investigator archetype is arguably better than Rogue if your goal is expanding on skills, since it gives you Pursue a Lead and Clue In, though I think it ends up being more of a one-feat wonder there.

Rogue archetype has better depth due to the excellent feats you can grab (Mobility for instance).

[SuperBidi]

Tarluk wrote:

Summoner and Magus leave a lot to be desired, to the point where I struggle to see how Summoner's dedication could be useful at all. And Magus' spellcasting feats being bounded seems like overkill when you only get a single use of Spellstrike anyway.

Magus is more on the broken side, it's clearly one of the strongest Dedication for martials.

Summoner is extremely strong but super niche. You need a character who lacks means of attack, which is not exactly common. I use it on a Chirurgeon Alchemist, so I don't have to care about Dexterity or Strength as I use my Eidolon instead, I can use Choker-Arm Mutagen without caring about the penalties, the Eidolon fully benefits from Bestial Mutagen and I can easily heal myself with my Elixirs of Life. So it's a massive asset in this case. But I agree that with any character who benefits form a natural mean of attack it is completely pointless. Still, you can use it for skills as the Eidolon helps a lot with them.

[magnuskn]

Blave wrote:

Magus is great! Having only one spellstrike per encounter is fine if you consider that most fights are decided by turn 3 and that you most likely have stuff from your primary class to do on the other two turns.

Is that so? High-level fights seem to take much longer, if the VOD's I saw of the Rules Lawyers Ruby Phoenix Tournament campaign are any indication.

[SuperBidi]

magnuskn wrote:

Blave wrote:

Magus is great! Having only one spellstrike per encounter is fine if you consider that most fights are decided by turn 3 and that you most likely have stuff from your primary class to do on the other two turns.

Is that so? High-level fights seem to take much longer, if the VOD's I saw of the Rules Lawyers Ruby Phoenix Tournament campaign are any indication.

Blave used the word "decided". High level fights tend to last but are decided rather early (once you start downing opponents, it becomes more and more trivial).

[Blave]

Yeah, as SuperBidi pointed out, fights can go longer than 3 rounds, but it's rare to not see one side as a clear favorite on turn 4 or later.

And to be honest, I'm level 18 in one campaign right now and I can't think of too many encounters that went much past 3 rounds at all. It is a homebrew campaign and might be due to the encounter design of my GM, of course, though he doesn't seem to be pulling his punches.

But either way, even if you happen to have 5+ round encounters frequently, having Spellstrike as a one round nova option isn't bad at all.

[magnuskn]

Alright, I guess we'll see how it goes when we get to the high levels. Starting Abomination Vaults this Sunday, finally. :)

[Deriven Firelion]

The length of higher level fights seems to depend on group composition:

1. Group fights: AoO power from casters end these much faster with martials focusing on softened up targets.

2. Single target: well built martials with intelligent use of buffing and debuffing speed these up.