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So while Liturgist is quite strong, it's also pretty much the best option by default because there's nothing else worth talking about unless you're in a campaign tailored toward Seer or can get to the levels medium is good at quickly.
I wouldn't be opposed to them buffing medium and shaman as an alternative, particularly in the medium's 1st invocation and in the shaman's 2nd.
Unless the majority of actually gameplay is hovering at or above level 9, I'm honestly dumbfounded that the shaman is as unpopular as it is considering its advantage in feat economy in the early levels. In some ways it feels like a better witch.
Unless the majority of actually gameplay is hovering at or above level 9, I'm honestly dumbfounded that the shaman is as unpopular as it is considering its advantage in feat economy in the early levels. In some ways it feels like a better witch.
It's feat economy for gaining a familiar, so it's only saving you feats if you already planned on spending feats on a familiar, and even a fully buffed normal familiar can be lackluster. Then you add the fact that "If your familiar is slain or destroyed, you lose all other benefits from the apparition until you remanifest the familiar during your next daily preparations.": this means that if you have a DM that doesn't just ignore your familiar in combat, it a free chance to lose an apparition for a day. Even with a witch, losing your familiar doesn't take known spells, skills and focus spells with it.
Honestly, I'd be dumbfounded if it wasn't as unpopular. You'd need a DM that is very permissive about what a familiar can do [like in exploration mode and ignoring it in combat] to make it ok IMO.
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Unless the majority of actually gameplay is hovering at or above level 9, I'm honestly dumbfounded that the shaman is as unpopular as it is considering its advantage in feat economy in the early levels. In some ways it feels like a better witch.It's feat economy for gaining a familiar, so it's only saving you feats if you already planned on spending feats on a familiar, and even a fully buffed normal familiar can be lackluster. Then you add the fact that "If your familiar is slain or destroyed, you lose all other benefits from the apparition until you remanifest the familiar during your next daily preparations.": this means that if you have a DM that doesn't just ignore your familiar in combat, it a free chance to lose an apparition for a day. Even with a witch, losing your familiar doesn't take known spells, skills and focus spells with it.
Honestly, I'd be dumbfounded if it wasn't as unpopular. You'd need a DM that is very permissive about what a familiar can do [like in exploration mode and ignoring it in combat] to make it ok IMO.
Yeah, that's all a pretty fair assessment. Even when I use a familiar, it feels like more hassle than it's worth but I try to be objective on these judgements.
My argument about STR is really that it is pretty much a secondary attribute of the class, and you will be better at exploiting many of the feats and apparitions if you don't tank it, but that pretty much means that both INT and CHA are bad investments on the class (all will be difficult to boost at all) if you don't partially abandon DEX.
The Animist is not a "fight from far away" caster. Your emanations are small and a ton of your feats assume you want to be right up in the thick of combat. The class is BAD at reflex saves for sure, but that just makes Canny Acumen pretty much a default option for this class, even if you boosted DEX to +5. That also means that getting CA as early as possible is important and will pretty much balance out whatever you were trying to accomplish boosting DEX.
Devouring Dark Form is a bit of a tricky vessel spell that will probably take talking to your GM about, but makes great use of both strength and Athletics. The spell says it transforms your legs and arms into tentacles, but it doesn't say anything about whether that means you can't use items/weapons anymore, nor what affect that has on your movement. My assumption would be that means you can use your items/weapons normally and keep your normal speed. Only the tentacle attack would get the 10ft reach, but since your legs are tentacles as well, it shouldn't require a free hand to make that attack. That gets weird if you have monk stances or other unarmed attacks which you should still be able to use in theory, but all your limbs are tentacles, so it is kind of a GM fiat situation. a 10ft reach on dragon tail attacks would be pretty strong, especially danced over into embodiment of battle. That one never got playtested so these issues never came up.
Even just the tentacle attack with grapple combines very well with Witness, as the status bonus is going to work with your grappling maneuvers, and the Liturgist can be working with both from level 1, meaning they could be holding down enemies from 10 ft away and be a brutal controller.
The Shaman will be a popular low level option. In environments like PFS, hoping to ever play at level 9+ is a big shot when you create your character.
Now, Familiars are not incredible but with 4 abilities you can grab something nice. And I have many characters with one and I got only one dead Familiar (on a Death spell, s**t happens). Death of a Familiar is rather rare unless the GM takes specific actions to take them down (for whatever reason...).
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My argument about STR is really that it is pretty much a secondary attribute of the class, and you will be better at exploiting many of the feats and apparitions if you don't tank it, but that pretty much means that both INT and CHA are bad investments on the class (all will be difficult to boost at all) if you don't partially abandon DEX.
I definitely wouldn't ever suggest tanking it. My current animist is:
STR-1 DEX-2 CON-2 INT-0 WIS-4 CHA-0
I currently plan going back and forth between bumping up strength and intelligence.
The Animist is not a "fight from far away" caster. Your emanations are small and a ton of your feats assume you want to be right up in the thick of combat.
It is and it isn't. It really depends on how you're set up for the day and even then, you have plenty of options for melee range that don't require strength. I'm a Stalker in Darkened Boughs medium, so my default melee attack is probably going to be gouging claw.
The class is BAD at reflex saves for sure, but that just makes Canny Acumen pretty much a default option for this class, even if you boosted DEX to +5. That also means that getting CA as early as possible is important and will pretty much balance out whatever you were trying to accomplish boosting DEX.
The same can be said about fortitude as well though reflex DOES advance much later. At some point you're going to have to decide between taking CA for reflex or fortitude.
On the topic of devouring dark form, though this is only vaguely related to what you discussed, I'm still a bit confused about how the heightened version, particularly rank 5, is supposed to work. It says you can make a (non-specified) unarmed strike when you sustain, but does that have to be when you are in the water elemental battleform? It'd be a lot better if you could use the tentacle from the base rank and it'd be ever better if you could get the free strike in late levels as a cave worm or sea serpent.
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You can choose to take on the water
elemental battle form from elemental form instead of
gaining a tentacle unarmed attack, heightened to the same
level as this vessel spell. When you do, this spell loses the
morph trait and gains the polymorph trait. You can attempt
an unarmed attack Strike against a creature within your
reach each time you Sustain this spell.As written, you should be getting the Unarmed attack with every sustain, regardless of the form you are:
The heightened effect has 3 sentences describing the effect:
"you can choose to take", so noone is forcing you to shapeshift.
"when you do this happens", so this sentence is linked to the shapeshift.
"you can do X when you Sustain", this sentence is a separate effect.
Thank you. Sometimes these rules, as clear as they attempt to make them, still use a bit too much implicative language and not enough definitiveness. I think the thing that makes it most confusing is you don't get a strike with the sustain until rank 2 and then it explicitly states that it must be a jaws unarmed attack (for shark battle form) so that's what got me wondering about the wording for the rank 5 effect.
And I have many characters with one and I got only one dead Familiar (on a Death spell, s**t happens). Death of a Familiar is rather rare unless the GM takes specific actions to take them down (for whatever reason...).
I've seen more familiars than that go down to a single area attack spell, so mileage will vary.
Now, Familiars are not incredible but with 4 abilities you can grab something nice.
Maybe, but it competes with a 1 action swapping between apparitions and having the number of Focus Points in your focus pool is equal to the number of focus spells you have or the number of apparitions you are attuned to, whichever is higher. IMO, shaman and seer rate niche use and medium only becomes competitive if you plan/expect to play a significant amount of time at 9+.
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@Unicore: No joke, after looking at devouring dark form again and realizing that the tentacle unarmed attack doesn't have the finesse trait and having shroudb's explanation of how rank 5+ should work, I am seriously starting to question my judgement about strength not being secondary now.
Maybe, but it competes with a 1 action swapping between apparitions
That's a feat you can grab anyway (and will, it's a tax feat in my opinion). Roughly, if you want to use a Familiar and focus only on low levels, Shaman will give you 2 feats when Liturgist gives you one. So Shaman > Liturgist in that case.
My argument about STR is really that it is pretty much a secondary attribute of the class
STR is a secondary attribute if you go for a Devouring Dark Form or Witness to Ancient Battles Animist. If you focus on Steward of Stone and Fire, Monarch of the Fey Courts or Custodian of Groves and Gardens you will certainly choose Charisma, and otherwise you'll certainly go for Intelligence as secondary stat for Crafter in the Vault and the varying Lore skills.
So it's pretty much build dependent.
That's a feat you can grab anyway (and will, it's a tax feat in my opinion). Roughly, if you want to use a Familiar, Shaman will give you 2 feats when Liturgist gives you one. So Shaman > Liturgist in that case.
Yeah, but there are other feats to take at that level like Embodiment of Balance or Channelers Stance: IMO, gaining the familiar feats puts you 2 levels behind on getting the feats you really want for a familiar and familiar isn't that exciting. I'd REALLY have to have some niche super-combo of familiar abilities to take it myself, especially when I'd have to use one ability on Absorb Familiar so I wouldn't have to worry about it getting randomly murdered and losing an apparition.
Yeah, but there are other feats to take at that level like Embodiment of Balance or Channelers Stance
Channeler's Stance is a trap. I've moved it all around and it just doesn't work. The one-action cost prevents it from being a valid move for blasting. And if you build your Animist to be a healer you'll certainly go for AoE healing over time with Garden of Healing being your main Vessel Spell, and Channeler's Stance doesn't really help for healing over time effects.
I dislike Embodiment of Balance as it really feels like a crutch. I prefer to somehow find a way to use my Apparition Spells even if they are subpar. In general, I dislike "easy solutions" to problems when there's a cost attached.
So I'm strongly considering Shaman for my Animist (I have a few days left before my first game with it).
Channelers stance doesn't care if the spell is duration or not.
It only cares if it's normal healing or healing over time like fast healing/regeneration.
See edit: ~~Garden of Healing benefits perfectly fine from it as a Vitality effect that offers instantaneous healing every time you cast or sustain.~~
Edit: Actually it doesn't have the Vitality tag, so indeed it would not benefit from it. But that's for a separate reason, and not for having a duration.
Yes, that's why my sentence was "Channeler's Stance doesn't really help for healing over time effects".
Channeler's Stance will negligeably improve HoT effects and you need to use it before you cast the HoT spell (when effects like Healer's Blessing can actually be used afterwards in some situations).I find Channeler's Stance to be a Dedication feat for other healers. Clerics want it. But the Animist, not really. It doesn't work with the way the Animist heals.
@Unicore: No joke, after looking at devouring dark form again and realizing that the tentacle unarmed attack doesn't have the finesse trait and having shroudb's explanation of how rank 5+ should work, I am seriously starting to question my judgement about strength not being secondary now.
I came back to this thread just to say something to this effect. I initially thought Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma were equally valid choices of fourth attribute, but whereas the Animist can dump Intelligence and Charisma without much trouble (using specific Lore for checks has you deal with much lower DCs usually, so you're less likely to fail even with low Int, and as you mentioned the class has no direct synergy with Charisma skills), dumping Strength means the class can't make good use of several vessel spells or feats (including late-level feats like Forest's Heart). I saw you pushed Strength to blue in the guide, and I think that's the right call.
Forest Heart does have the Finesse trait (you're still losing the potential Grapples though).
It's not just the grapples, though. Strength still adds to your damage, and because you're adding your full Strength mod to Strikes you're making from 30 feet away, it makes a significant difference even if you're leaning more towards Dex.
As I said earlier, I also believe that Str is higher synergy, but Dex is not too far behind.
I don't see why it's an either-or situation. As a Wisdom caster, the Animist can go Strength, Dex, Con, and Wis with their boosts without any trouble, and in doing so will leverage both significantly better ranged attacks and Ref saves, and much better melee attacks with certain apparitions and feats. Unless you feel like you really need to max out your Lore modifiers or your Crafting mod for traveling workshop, there's comparatively much less incentive to go for Int as a fourth score, or Charisma for that matter.
Ehhh, by level 14 that you get Forest Heart, the 2-3 damage difference of the Strike from going Dex over Str isn't that important imo, especially not a "significant damage difference".
So it really is just the Grapples for that.
Forest's Heart is a 16th-level feat, and by that point a properly-built Animist would have +4/5 Strength, a relative -0.5/+0.5 to an extra d8 of damage on average. If that is not a significant damage difference, then I don't know what is.
As for either/or, ofc you can get both, but which one is the primary (of the two) does matter a ton (like, 14 vs 18 at level 5 and etc). And for me the important thing is "at least 1" (for AC and Attack bonus) and then the remaining one can be shared with the rest of the stats depending on what direction you want to take your Animist.
I don't think the relative importance of stat prioritization at early levels is in dispute, purely the false dichotomy being set here of choosing one to the exclusion of the other. It is possible to boost both attributes, and if you want to make the most of all of your apparitions then you probably should.
I'm not advocating of going 0 Str the same way I'm not advocating to go 0 Dex. Going a+2 on Str/Dex (and +5 on the other) and a +2 on something like Cha/Int as an example is imo pretty on par with going 18 on the secondary and +0 on Int and Cha.
A 14 Str by level 16 Will have just a 3 point difference on something already doing like 4d8+2d6+2 base.
The 3 points of damage difference is negligible.
And yes, which one is the primary is extremely important on early levels imo.
I'm not certain what point you're trying to make here, other than "if you deliberately neglect this attribute, then you won't get much out of it," which isn't exactly a revelation. As already pointed out, you get 4 attribute boosts to 4 attributes of your choice each time by level 16, so even if you only use those and don't apply any ancestry or background boosts to Strength, you're still going to come out with a +4 mod, which as already pointed out, is about as strong as an extra damage die on that stance. If you're having trouble making good use of Strength because you chose to dilute your attribute boosts across Int and Charisma, that sounds more like a player issue than a balance issue to me.
The point is simple:
The difference of Str vs Dex is small and mostly impacting early game.
Wasn't your point essentially the opposite just a few posts ago?
As for either/or, ofc you can get both, but which one is the primary (of the two) does matter a ton
If we're talking about an Animist who boosts both Strength and Dex at every attribute boost level, then yeah, having +4 versus +5 Strength isn't going to make a massive difference on a finesse stance, but dumping one or the other, or neglecting one or the other for Int or Charisma as you suggested, will have a more significant impact on your effectiveness with these options. This is why I'm in agreement with the guide shifting Strength up to blue, and believe it's important to note that Strength and Dex shouldn't have to compete with each other for selection, so much as for priority at level 1 depending on playstyle.
No? It was always:
As I said earlier, I also believe that Str is higher synergy, but Dex is not too far behind.
But this has nothing to do with what's being discussed, as the high individual synergy of Strength or Dex was never in dispute. At your posts show, at the time you were trying to argue in favor of prioritizing one over the other, including to its exclusion, and claimed this made a significant difference. Trying to backpedal now has "we have always been at war with Eastasia" vibes.
As I said earlier:
As long as you don't completely ignore one of the two.
You certainly don't need to put EVERY tertiary boost on the stat.
As an example, a 14str/20dex vs 20str/14dex is totally fine. The only thing that the 14 str loses is maneuvers, the damage difference is minimal, and the only thing the 14dex loses is ranged attacks and a bit of reflex.
No need for 18/20 or 20/18 , although you certainly can.
I don't think you strictly need to do anything here, as the Animist will be a strong class regardless, but the fact remains that putting more points into Strength or Dex will continue to benefit you in ways putting those points into Intelligence or Charisma wouldn't. As mentioned already, Strength will boost your melee attack damage (and accuracy when using devouring dark form's tentacle, a non-finesse attack, or any battle form granted by your vessel spells), and Dex will bolster your weak Reflex saves on top of feeding into stuff like Thievery checks in traveling workshop or Acrobatics checks to Tumble Through, should you ever need to maneuver through others while using spells like discomfiting whispers or garden of healing. While it is correct to point out that these boosts are not essential for success, it isn't to claim that these boosts are insignificant or unimpactful.
Don't put words into my mouth just to try to deflect proven wrong.
I'm sorry, but this quite literally describes your tactic here. You were shown direct quotes proving that the thing you are saying now is the opposite of what you were previously claiming, and overreacting with a litany of false accusations suggests your concern here is more with appearing in the right than saying anything meaningful. Regardless, the point stands that it is likely a good idea for the Animist to boost both Strength and Dex, as both benefit several of their apparitions quite significantly.
again wrong.
Strength will do absolutely nothing for your battle form accuracy. That's given by the spell regardless of your Strength or Dexterity.
From the text in animal form:
One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can Strike with. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +9, and your damage bonus is +1. These attacks are Strength based (for the purpose of the enfeebled condition, for example). If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.
Emphasis added in bold. Elemental form has this same bit of highlighted text as well, as does pretty much every other battle form with an attack. While it is true that you could just use your battle form's modifier, that modifier will not progress outside of specific heightening levels, so it is in fact recommended to have a strong unarmed attack modifier of your own, which will include Strength given that the unarmed attacks for most (though not all) battle forms are Strength-based. I think you may need to do a bit more research on this, and I would strongly advise trying out battle forms in play to see what I mean.
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Don't put words into my mouth just to try to deflect proven wrong.I'm sorry, but this quite literally describes your tactic here. You were shown direct quotes proving that the thing you are saying now is the opposite of what you were previously claiming, and overreacting with a litany of false accusations suggests your concern here is more with appearing in the right than saying anything meaningful. Regardless, the point stands that it is likely a good idea for the Animist to boost both Strength and Dex, as both benefit several of their apparitions quite significantly.
again wrong.
Strength will do absolutely nothing for your battle form accuracy. That's given by the spell regardless of your Strength or Dexterity.
From the text in animal form:
One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can Strike with. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +9, and your damage bonus is +1. These attacks are Strength based (for the purpose of the enfeebled condition, for example). If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.Emphasis added in bold. Elemental form has this same bit of highlighted text as well, as does pretty much every other battle form with an attack. While it is true that you could just use your battle form's modifier, that modifier will not progress outside of specific heightening levels, so it is in fact recommended to have a strong unarmed attack modifier of your own, which will include Strength given that the unarmed attacks for most (though not all) battle forms are Strength-based. I think you may need to do a bit more research on this, and I would strongly advise trying out battle forms in play to see what I mean.
Without the Druid's status bonus, your attack bonus is a lot closer to the baseline for a battle form and will often be outclassed. I'd have to run the numbers as the only comparison I found doesn't use the druid's own attack without a status bonus.
Edit: Did a quick comparison. The only time an animist maxing strength and their handwraps beats the bonus from their battle forms is level 4. At every other level, it's equal or worse. Technically you also beat aeriel form at level 10, but you have elemental form by default which beats both.
Edit2: Showing My work
You do understand what "minimal difference" means right?
The "direct quote" is up there to prove my point, where's yours that I ever spoke about either exclusion or massive difference?
Don't try to suddenly switch your narrative just cause you're wrong.
My quote is still up there, showing just how wrong you are. Here, to remind you:
To be very clear, here is your full quote:
Forest Heart does have the Finesse trait (you're still losing the potential Grapples though).
As I said earlier, I also believe that Str is higher synergy, but Dex is not too far behind.
You can still use Embodiment with ranged weapons, and Form vessel spells don't really care about your Str or Dex.
So you mostly lose some early stuff and some maneuvers but gain better ranged options by going Dex over Str.
Notably, if you want to go Garden Dex is better than Str since you don't want to be in the thick of it and be healing your enemies, while if you're in the backline you can't more easily maneuver yourself to only hit allies with it.
And here is the full comment you were replying to:
I came back to this thread just to say something to this effect. I initially thought Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma were equally valid choices of fourth attribute, but whereas the Animist can dump Intelligence and Charisma without much trouble (using specific Lore for checks has you deal with much lower DCs usually, so you're less likely to fail even with low Int, and as you mentioned the class has no direct synergy with Charisma skills), dumping Strength means the class can't make good use of several vessel spells or feats (including late-level feats like Forest's Heart). I saw you pushed Strength to blue in the guide, and I think that's the right call.
Notice how you are constantly pitting Strength against Dex in your comment, how you challenged my own claim of boosting Strength alongside Dex, Wis, and Con, and thus how little sense any of this would make if you were assuming that the Animist were boosting both attributes simultaneously as you are claiming now. It is painfully evident that you did not say what you're claiming now, and I generally don't see the point in trying to rewrite history when there is a full paper trail showing exactly what you've said, in which context. It is, in fact, on the same page as the discussion we're having now, so it's not like one has to go very far either. I'd rather move on and actually discuss the Animist, but if you really do insist on making this conversation about you and what you've said, I'll be happy to keep providing receipts as needed.
P.s.
Animist forms do not have the+2 that druid has. And the form improving feats are Wandering, meaning you can pick them up whenever you pick a form vessel spell for the day.
As printed, the battle form attack bonus will always be higher than the Animist regardless of if the Animist is Strength or Dexterity.Thus rendering the Strength argument for those completely irrelevant.
Without the Druid's status bonus, your attack bonus is a lot closer to the baseline for a battle form and will often be outclassed. I'd have to run the numbers as the only comparison I found doesn't use the druid's own attack without a status bonus.
Once again, the modifier granted by your battle form is static. It does not change with level outside of the spell ranks where the spell is heightened. Your battle form's modifier will therefore fall off, and will eventually be replaced by your unarmed attack modifier, which will be too low to function adequately if you haven't been boosting Strength.
To wit, let's look at animal form again: as a 2nd-rank spell, it gives you a +9 attack modifier. As a 3rd-level Animist with a +3 Strength mod and a +1 item bonus, your unarmed attack modifier is +9, so it evens out, but at 4th level, your unarmed attack mod becomes +10, and would override the battle form's attack modifier. The attack mod then jumps to +14 at 3rd rank, and for a while the spell will indeed provide a higher attack mod... right up until level 11, where your attack mod becomes +20 and will start to override animal form's attack modifier, which will remain stuck at +18 forever. You could switch to elemental form at that point for the +23 attack modifier, and that form's modifier would cover you... right up until level 15, where your attack mod of +26 would beat the form's maximum of +25. Even if you pick Monstrous Inclinations just to enter monstrosity form, the form's modifier still falls off at level 20. It is therefore still to your advantage to have a high natural attack modifier, because without it you limit the forms you can enter effectively due to their own static modifiers falling off.
Channeler's Stance is a trap. I've moved it all around and it just doesn't work. The one-action cost prevents it from being a valid move for blasting. And if you build your Animist to be a healer you'll certainly go for AoE healing over time with Garden of Healing being your main Vessel Spell, and Channeler's Stance doesn't really help for healing over time effects.
I dislike Embodiment of Balance as it really feels like a crutch. I prefer to somehow find a way to use my Apparition Spells even if they are subpar. In general, I dislike "easy solutions" to problems when there's a cost attached.
I mean, ignoring Embodiment of Balance is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy with seeing Channeler's Stance is a trap as you're looking at using Garden of Healing.
I'm also not seeing what you mean with "The one-action cost prevents it from being a valid move for blasting.": You can easily move [or shield, or...], Channeler's Stance and Earth's Bile that leave the stance up for the rest of the combat. What is the problem?
I'm also not seeing what you mean with "The one-action cost prevents it from being a valid move for blasting.": You can easily move [or shield, or...], Channeler's Stance and Earth's Bile that leave the stance up for the rest of the combat. What is the problem?
Because it's subpar. Casting a 2-action blasting spell will largely outdamage these actions and considering that you are at round 1 it will certainly be a massive winning move.
Blasting asks for a lot of conditions to shine, and they are met mostly at round 1 and sometimes at round 2. After that, the reduced number of enemies and the mess of a normal fight will prevent you from dealing much damage. So you won't find an action for Channeler's Stance before some time, nullifying its use for blasting.I mean, ignoring Embodiment of Balance is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy with seeing Channeler's Stance is a trap as you're looking at using Garden of Healing.
I see what you mean. I hadn't considered using it to that end. I need to think about it :)
Teridax, the reason we're* not considering using battle forms if they're not heightened to max rank is because even if you can improve your AC and Attack bonus by using it on an old form, you can't improve the damage, so it's always to your advantage to use the highest rank battle form possible. If that battle form is too big to be practical, then you're better off using a different spell (focus or otherwise).
As for 20th level when max strength animist with +3 handwraps has an attack bonus one higher than Monstroaity Form's attack bonus... How often is that relevant? At 20th level, do you really need multiple battle forms a day? You already have your Avatar, so I would just use another focus spell in other encounters.
*At least, I'm not. I do not wish to put words in anyone else's mouth, but I suspect Shroudb is coming from the same point.
Channeler's Stance
Thinking more about Channeler's Stance, I have the feeling that it's meant to be used by Animists who don't specialize in either blasting nor healing.
If you are specialized in blasting, then you'll cast 2-action blasting spells and Earth's Bile, leaving no action for Channeler's Stance.
If you are specialized in healing, you'll go for Garden of Healing which will certainly eat 2 of your actions as you'll need to position it and you'll target more interesting 1-action spells for healing than the small bonus from Channeler's Stance.
But if you are playing neither builds, you may sometimes want to blast and sometimes want to heal. Using Channeler's Stance + 2-action blast/Heal is a nice move.
As a side note, you don't need Embodiment of Balance to benefit from Channeler's Stance on Heal. Channeler's Stance works on any healing spell.
Thinking more about Channeler's Stance, I have the feeling that it's meant to be used by Animists who don't specialize in either blasting nor healing.
That was my thinking. That and Earth's Bile being an area attack isn't always an option, even if you focus on blaster attacks, some extra damage can help out when it's more single target. It's only a single action to fit in.
If you are specialized in healing, you'll go for Garden of Healing which will certainly eat 2 of your actions as you'll need to position it and you'll target more interesting 1-action spells for healing than the small bonus from Channeler's Stance.
Garden of Healing is nice but it's an emanation. If you need to heal multiple people and they can't all fit into it or if you can't move, it's not healing them all. Or maybe they just need a bigger heal: this is when a 2 action heal might be needed and bonus healing is bonus healing.
As a side note, you don't need Embodiment of Balance to benefit from Channeler's Stance on Heal. Channeler's Stance works on any healing spell.
Yes, but it means you can put whatever you want in your normal slots as any of your apparition slots can just become healing. This seems like a total win for a healer to me as it opens up other spells for the normal slots for things like condition removal or Breath of Life. It just plain gives you more spells to heal with.
Do you all think the tentacle arms of devoured in the dark can be used to deliver touch spells?
I think that vessel spell is going to end up needing some FAQ or Errata about what it means for your arms and legs to be tentacles. Tentacle arms, channel stance and then one action harm spells with reach has a fair bit of potential. Although you’ll run out of spells fast. Channel stance is probably overrated if only because you can’t cast apparition spells from scrolls or items.
Teridax, the reason we're* not considering using battle forms if they're not heightened to max rank is because even if you can improve your AC and Attack bonus by using it on an old form, you can't improve the damage, so it's always to your advantage to use the highest rank battle form possible. If that battle form is too big to be practical, then you're better off using a different spell (focus or otherwise).
The problem with this mentality is that this means limiting yourself to just one battle form and abandoning the versatility you could otherwise have by being good at multiple forms. It's also not like the higher-rank battle form is always better, either: using devouring dark form to become a water elemental has you deal 2d12 + 11 bludgeoning damage for a total of 24 on average, whereas becoming a shark will have you deal 4d8+7 piercing damage for a total of 25 average damage. You will want to have that other form in your back pocket in case you're faced with an enemy that's weaker to piercing damage than bludgeoning damage, much like how a martial class keeps a backup weapon for similar occasions. On top of this, you wouldn't be able to make great use of the spell's basic tentacle attack or grapple with a low Strength mod, so you'd be hamstringing yourself all the way through.
As for 20th level when max strength animist with +3 handwraps has an attack bonus one higher than Monstroaity Form's attack bonus... How often is that relevant? At 20th level, do you really need multiple battle forms a day? You already have your Avatar, so I would just use another focus spell in other encounters.
I would say you do, yes, unless you're really counting on having nothing but one encounter per day. Avatar is certainly a good spell to have for this occasion, but on the occasions where you've already cast it, or would otherwise really benefit from casting another spell, having that focus spell you can use an unlimited number of times a day will still be valuable. Again, a huge part of the Animist's strength is in their versatility, and having those extra options is meaningful power in and of itself.
No?
Go on, actually READ my comment.
I specifically say that while there's a difference, the difference is small.
How can anyone interpret that as "you should completely ignore a stat and the difference is huge."???
Like, at this point you have to be trolling to get that out of the post you quoted.
You mean this comment?
As for either/or, ofc you can get both, but which one is the primary (of the two) does matter a ton (like, 14 vs 18 at level 5 and etc).
Emphasis added. I don't know about you, but "does matter a ton" and "the difference is small" seem like pretty diametrically opposed statements to me. Furthermore, as already pointed out, your first comment tried arguing that one should pick either Strength or Dex, and that the difference between the two as competing, mutually exclusive stats is not huge, in direct response to my claim that Strength is better than Intelligence or Charisma as a fourth stat on the Animist:
I came back to this thread just to say something to this effect. I initially thought Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma were equally valid choices of fourth attribute, but whereas the Animist can dump Intelligence and Charisma without much trouble (using specific Lore for checks has you deal with much lower DCs usually, so you're less likely to fail even with low Int, and as you mentioned the class has no direct synergy with Charisma skills), dumping Strength means the class can't make good use of several vessel spells or feats (including late-level feats like Forest's Heart). I saw you pushed Strength to blue in the guide, and I think that's the right call.
I don't know about you, but "fourth attribute" implies picking three other attributes, in this case the remaining three that were not mentioned (Dex, Con, and Wis, just to be crystal clear). In light of this, trying to contradict this claim as you did with the assumption of picking Strength along with Dex (and Con, and Wis) makes strictly no sense, as there is no contradiction:
Forest Heart does have the Finesse trait (you're still losing the potential Grapples though).
As I said earlier, I also believe that Str is higher synergy, but Dex is not too far behind.
You can still use Embodiment with ranged weapons, and Form vessel spells don't really care about your Str or Dex.
So you mostly lose some early stuff and some maneuvers but gain better ranged options by going Dex over Str.
Notably, if you want to go Garden Dex is better than Str since you don't want to be in the thick of it and be healing your enemies, while if you're in the backline you can't more easily maneuver yourself to only hit allies with it.
Note how your first sentence in that quote makes no sense in a world where the Animist would be boosting both Strength and Dex consistently, and especially not if Strength were the Animist's fourth attribute as I stated (and thus where the Animist would be relying on their higher Dex modifier for their finesse attack rolls over their lower Strength mod). It is clear that you assumed mutual exclusion, and backpedaled from there.
The problem so far is that I have in fact read your comments, shroudb, which is why it is so patently obvious that you've been moving the goalposts as discussion went on. Bluffing that the comment history proved you right backfired when I can just keep pointing to that exact same comment history and prove the contrary. Once again, this isn't really my interest on this thread, and I was and still am ready to move on from this, but if you want to keep digging, go off I guess.
P.s. getting a+1 at level 20 when you go Str over Dex is like the definition of "Str is higher synergy, but Dex is not too far behind" which was my argument about "only just slightly better".
Except I'm not advocating to go Strength over Dex here, you could achieve the same result at level 20 with a +2/+2 start. In general, I'm not advocating to exclude either stat from the Animist's progression nor to prioritize one specific attribute over the other, that's purely an angle you've taken in your own arguments. Long before you hijacked my comment on this thread, I made another comment in a separate thread that outlined in detail the benefits of going for a Dex build for a ranged embodiment of battle playstyle, a comment you clearly read and took to heart, given that it immediately followed a comment you made that trashed the spell on the assumption that its only worth was in melee. Although time and more play experience will tell, I think prioritizing Strength over Dex on an Animist is just as valid as prioritizing Dex over Strength, and have never said anything to the contrary (in fact, I have insisted several times that I had no arguments against prioritizing one or the other on a build that uses both). It is you, and only you, who have tried to railroad this discussion onto stat prioritization. In general, I'm having trouble understanding the needless and unprovoked hostility in your comments outside of some kind of underlying personal grudge, as I don't think anything I've said so far about the Animist on this thread has especially challenged your ever-shifting opinions. We really don't need to be arguing here.
Can you stop trolling?
You may want to cool it a little with the accusations here, as it is clear your narrative is off. As demonstrated, you tried picking an argument with a comment that had no bearing on what I'd said and assumed a mutually exclusive choice of stats, and when I countered by pointing out I wasn't assuming the stats were exclusive, you then made the equally irrelevant claim that stat prioritization makes a huge difference, a claim you then backpedalled on later on:
The point is simple:
The difference of Str vs Dex is small and mostly impacting early game.
The simple fact of the matter is that you have been so desperate to win this argument of your own invention that you've abandoned all pretense of saying anything truthful, helpful, or relevant to the topic of discussion. Your latest reply once again centers this conversation purely around yourself, when this thread really isn't about you. I suggest you take whatever personal grievances you have to private messages, and leave this space for actual discussion of the Animist.
On that topic, I think it's worth discussing the benefits of embodiment of battle on a ranged gish Animist: the guide focuses mostly on the benefits of Reactive Strike and draws comparison to heroism purely in terms of accuracy buffs, but I think glosses over the bonus damage you get, which isn't necessarily too impressive on a melee build but makes a much bigger difference at range. Just to bring what I mentioned in a comment on another thread:
I feel embodiment of battle's free Reactive Strike is causing its potential as a ranged damage booster to get overlooked: because the spell eats one of your actions every turn, using it in melee is going to be somewhat difficult, as you'll be less able to move around compared to a melee martial. However, that problem is significantly lessened at range, where you can basically act like a turret much in the same style as a Starlit Span Magus and Sustain + Strike x2 every turn. The spell lets you Strike with the same accuracy as the average martial class at levels 1-4, 7-9, 13-14, and 17-19, with better-than-average-martial accuracy at levels 11-12 and 15-16, all while providing a starting +1 damage bonus that makes quite a big difference on a ranged weapon, plus early access to weapon specialization before any martial. It's not necessarily going to make for the most exciting playstyle, but it means you get to deal competitive damage by ranged martial standards at early levels, before weapon specialization starts to bridge that gap alongside the damage steroids most martials get.
It's not simply that the vessel spell is a focus spell and available at a far earlier level than heroism: at level 1, your ranged Strikes deal +1 damage while also potentially firing at the same accuracy as full martial classes, a deceptively large boost at that level (about 20% more damage per hit on a longbow). If you leverage your Strength with a weapon like a composite longbow, you can push this damage even further, and there will be quite a few levels where, assuming you're maxing out your Dex after Wisdom, you'll exceed most martials in accuracy. There's certainly a cost to Sustaining the spell each turn, but that cost is mitigated when you can stand back and shoot with less of a need to move around. For this reason, I would recommend pushing the spell to blue, with the caveat that it does require a heavier build investment than most other vessel spells.
Do you all think the tentacle arms of devoured in the dark can be used to deliver touch spells?
I think that vessel spell is going to end up needing some FAQ or Errata about what it means for your arms and legs to be tentacles. Tentacle arms, channel stance and then one action harm spells with reach has a fair bit of potential. Although you’ll run out of spells fast. Channel stance is probably overrated if only because you can’t cast apparition spells from scrolls or items.
What do you mean errata/faq?
Touch Reach:
You use your unarmed reach to determine whether you can touch the creature.Tentacle arms:
You gain a tentacle unarmed attack with
10-foot reachWhy wouldn't you apply touch spells to 10ft?
Channeler's stance does fit very well with Devouring Dark since that's the only save based energy damage cantrip from apparitions, and it also has a LOT of energy damaging apparition spells in it's list.
Right, but your arms and legs are now tentacles. Can you hold items? Can you move normally with 10ft long tentacles for legs? The writing of the spell makes it seems like maybe everything is normal, you just also have an additional unarmed attack ability now, but some GMs are going to read “your arms and legs become tentacles” and be much more restrictive.
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Right, but your arms and legs are now tentacles. Can you hold items? Can you move normally with 10ft long tentacles for legs? The writing of the spell makes it seems like maybe everything is normal, you just also have an additional unarmed attack ability now, but some GMs are going to read “your arms and legs become tentacles” and be much more restrictive.
I think it would/should be in the spell what changes the spell causes: so if it removed hands, I'd expect it to say so. It's a Morph, not a Battleform where by default you can't use most manipulate actions that require hands. As such, it only does what it says it does. Just like your movement rate doesn't drop because of tentacle legs, your ability to manipulate doesn't drop either.
Right, but your arms and legs are now tentacles. Can you hold items? Can you move normally with 10ft long tentacles for legs? The writing of the spell makes it seems like maybe everything is normal, you just also have an additional unarmed attack ability now, but some GMs are going to read “your arms and legs become tentacles” and be much more restrictive.I think it would/should be in the spell what changes the spell causes: so if it removed hands, I'd expect it to say so. It's a Morph, not a Battleform where by default you can't use most manipulate actions that require hands. As such, it only does what it says it does. Just like your movement rate doesn't drop because of tentacle legs, your ability to manipulate doesn't drop either.
This is also how I read it, but I just expect some GMs will read “your arms and legs turn to tentacles” and take that to be pretty mechanically restrictive.
Garden of Healing is nice but it's an emanation. If you need to heal multiple people and they can't all fit into it or if you can't move, it's not healing them all. Or maybe they just need a bigger heal: this is when a 2 action heal might be needed and bonus healing is bonus healing.
I've put here a build of what I consider a Garden of Healing based healer. You need to take care of your Garden to make good use of it, otherwise it's just better to use 2-action Heals like any Divine caster.
Yes, but it means you can put whatever you want in your normal slots as any of your apparition slots can just become healing. This seems like a total win for a healer to me as it opens up other spells for the normal slots for things like condition removal or Breath of Life. It just plain gives you more spells to heal with.
For me, it depends on your level. At low level, I fully agree: low level Apparition spells are mostly garbage to me. But the higher your level and the better they become (both because you increase your number of Apparitions, because you have a lot of Signature spells and obviously because they allow you to pick top spells from other spell lists), quickly becoming more interesting than your Prepared spells. So it's still nice as it provides a buffer of Heal spells when you absolutely need it but there's a cost, at least an opportunity one, to using them for Heal on a regular basis.
I'd not use normal Heals as main healing ability for a healer focused Animist. Unlike Oracle, Sorcerer and Cleric, you don't have extra spell slots for it and as such will face sustainability issues. Also, I don't find Channeler's Stance to be that good (because of the action cost that you won't always be able to pay) so you will end up as a rather average (and bland) healer.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
After building the final version of my Animist (@Graystone: I finally decided to give a go to Channeler's Stance ;) ), I think there's something misleading in your guide. Or maybe an advice that is not there and that will change considerably the Animist effectiveness.
Both Channeler's Stance and Circle of Spirits suffer from action competition with Vessel Spells. And you fall for it when you speak of Earth's Bile inside Channeler's Stance when both of them don't really work together.
Channeler's Stance, Circle of Spirits and Vessel Spells all compete for your third action.
So if you use Channeler's Stance, it means you haven't used your Vessel Spell. And when your Vessel Spell is Earth's Bile, it means you have lost damage by not casting it, damage you will need a few rounds to get back. And by that time the fight will certainly be over. So if you use Channeler's Stance every first round without much thought you'll not gain damage, you may actually end up with a lower efficiency (the first round is the moment you really want to blast so catching up is not enough to actually break even in efficiency).
The same happens for Circle of Spirits: If you use it, it means you have lost an action. And you will need a few rounds to make up for it, if you ever make up for it.
Channeler's Stance and Circle of Spirits are interesting if you don't have any action competition with Vessel Spells. In the case of Channeler's Stance, mostly because your Vessel Spell is not ideally used during round 1 (like Garden of Healing as you can't heal when no damage has been done). In the case of Circle of Spirits, because your current Vessel Spell doesn't work, like if you face Fire Elementals with Earth's Bile, it's better to just circle out of it as it will have close to no effect.
Channeler's Stance suffers from the preremaster Barbarian Rage issue where lots of players were raging as their first action of their first round even if it was actually reducing their damage output by preventing them from attacking. A lot of players are not tactically savvy enough to get any damage output from such abilities, using it at the first action of every round is actually a damage loss on average.
Circle of Spirits on the other hand creates another pitfall with players who will try to build the most versatile Animist possible to get the most out of Circle of Spirits without realizing that it's actually a weak gameplay: You should circle out of an Apparition only when its Vessel spell is completely useless, which should happen rarely in practice.
So I think your blue and purple colors create a false impression that will mislead a lot of players. There's really a piece of advice on action competition that is missing there and could prevent a lot of headaches and disappointments.