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It won't break anything as long as you avoid anything that might boost it beyond 1d6 damage somehow; finesse weapons have damage caps and the math could get messier if you're grabbing something that assumes agile. Nagaji have a 1d6 finesse bite attack, so the same basic "slot".
It won't break anything as long as you avoid anything that might boost it beyond 1d6 damage somehow; finesse weapons have damage caps and the math could get messier if you're grabbing something that assumes agile. Nagaji have a 1d6 finesse bite attack, so the same basic "slot".What about handwraps using Striking runes? or did you mean base damage die of 1d6 is capped?
Basic damage die. As far as I am aware the only ability where horns directly come into play is the Goring Charge feat, and that's not doing much. Unless there's some weird horn-centric feat out there I don't see it being any different than the nagaji bite.
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I made a Thaumaturge for a new Blood Lords game. I made a Dex-based build and took Littlehorn Minotaur as my ancestry. My plan was to use my natural weapons (horns) in combat and take advantage of my remaining free hand to use a shield.
Unfortunately, I misread the traits on the horns. I thought it had the Finesse tag, but it's actually the Agile tag. It's really making it hard to land a blow with my +0 strength. The GM offered to let me switch the tag to Agile.
Does anyone see any balance issues in doing this? I don't want to take a "cheat" that is unfair to the other players, but this stupid mistake is really hurting this character.
It's very rare for a weapon to be finesse or agile and have a damage die bigger than a d6. But this means that changing one for the other is not really problematic for damage purposes.
There's another thing you should discuss with your GM though. The thaumaturge's Implement's Empowerment ability isn't really compatible with using a shield:
The power of your implement can also be turned to the more common task of combat, its power adding to and amplifying the effects of runes and other magical empowerments. When you Strike, you can trace mystic patterns with an implement you're holding to empower the Strike, causing it to deal 2 additional damage per weapon damage die. Channeling the power requires full use of your hands. You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit.
If you're holding anything at all that isn't on the allowed list, you can't use this. And shields are not on that list.
Now, the design reason behind the ability is that the flavor idea behind thaumaturges is that you should be juggling lots of esoteric bric-a-brac, which is going to take up a lot of hand space, so you wouldn't be in a position to use say, a two-handed weapon, or a weapon and shield combination. So to make up for the loss of that damage, thaumaturges get this damage boost, but they can only use it if they're actually doing the things with their hands that the ability was meant for.
So you'd be missing out on this, but maybe that's a bit too punishing. You're using a d6 damage die and don't have a lot of strength to add to that, so your base damage would be pretty low. While you're not doing things exactly the originally designed way, you kinda fit the goal they were aiming for. Implement's empowerment would get your damage amount to about the amount they had in mind.
Hands are a big part of balancing in the system, so you're going to find a lot of detailed requirements for what goes in them.
If you're holding anything at all that isn't on the allowed list, you can't use this. And shields are not on that list.
There is a bit of a grey area here. there are several instances of mirrored surfaces on armor/shields, so [with the DM's approval] it's possible to use such a shield as an implement.
Secondly, shields can have attached/integrated weapons which means the hand could be wielding a one handed weapon: again, this'll need the Dm to ok it as the game doesn't go into what happens when something is multiple things at once [like wielding multiple weapons at once, like a Hand Crossbow with a Bayonet].
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If you're holding anything at all that isn't on the allowed list, you can't use this. And shields are not on that list.There is a bit of a grey area here. there are several instances of mirrored surfaces on armor/shields, so [with the DM's approval] it's possible to use such a shield as an implement.
Secondly, shields can have attached/integrated weapons which means the hand could be wielding a one handed weapon: again, this'll need the Dm to ok it as the game doesn't go into what happens when something is multiple things at once [like wielding multiple weapons at once, like a Hand Crossbow with a Bayonet].
There isn't a grey area. It's extremely clear what you can and can't be holding to get the benefit. RAW, none of that works and it's pretty clear it's intended to not work.
The advantage of using a natural attack like a bite/horns is that with two free hands, you can be holding two implements at the same time and thus have both effects active at once instead of having to swap them.
This combo is pretty good (there's a Ratfolk Thaumaturge in my Kingmaker game.
There isn't a grey area. It's extremely clear what you can and can't be holding to get the benefit. RAW, none of that works and it's pretty clear it's intended to not work.
It's clear you can hold a 1 handed weapon and you are doing so with an attached/integrated weapon: would you stop a Stiletto Pen or Polytool because they also function as something [pen and tool] that isn't a weapon? The fact that it's a shield doesn't stop it from being the weapon allowed in the hand.
As for the mirror, the only thing it mentions is that they are "small, portable, handheld mirrors" and not "larger mirrors" presumably not portable. I'm not sure what RAW you're seeing that prevents a mirrored shield from counting. What form they take is up to the DM. For instance, the Evil-Reflecting Shield "is polished to a mirrorlike sheen that reflects clear and true." I'm not seeing what's against RAW there.
So I'll disagree on your version of RAW. It's a grey area as it doesn't tell you what to do when an item counts as multiple things: the hand with a shield with a shield boss is hand holding a "single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica" and a mirrored shield is by definition a portable mirror.
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"I've declared my shield is also a mirror because I can polish it up to be reflective, thus it works" is not actually a definitive answer. I have read it, and I'm unconvinced. Especially not RAI, since there's no way to make that work with any other implement EXCEPT mirror (even weapon is a reach since shield bash says "this is not a weapon" and shield spikes are a seperate item that must be attached), and "we intended you to not be able to use a shield and an implement except this one" is a pretty big reach.
If we're dealing with realism: mirrors don't respond to impact well. That shield will get beaten up and lose that perfect reflection in any combat where you use it which means it won't function as a mirror. It also won't work as a mirror implement whenever you Raise it, since you're now using it as a shield and can't point it at the angles necessary for the mirror tricks to work.
Some GMs might allow it, but there's a reason why this isn't a widespread belief.
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It seems to me that "small, portable, handheld mirror" implies a mirror that actually fits in your hand—something around the size of a makeup mirror. I really don't think a mirrored shield qualifies. If that were the case, a mirror the size of a shield with a handle on the back would be an equally valid choice. I don't think such an item qualifies as small (it's more in the medium-sized dry goods category), portable (it wouldn't fit in most bags), or handheld (it is carry-able, but does not fit in the palm of your hand). If a theoretical mirror the size of a shield doesn't pass, I don't think a mirror that is also a shield passes.
Small is a matter of perspective. I agree that a normal shield is probably not small, but I could see smaller ones working. However, are you really saying that for something to be hand held, it must fit in the palm of your hand? If you can hold it in your hand, it is hand held. It is in the name. Also, battering rams have the portable tag. A shield is definitely more portable than a battering ram.
It's a question of what "handheld" usually means in the context of mirrors. While some things that have handles and do not fit in the hand are referred to as "handheld" (like small vacuums), and there are mirrors with paddle handles... any mirror with a handle like that still doesn't have a terribly large reflective surface, probably no more than 5 or 6 inches across in the absolute best case.
It still doesn't match the size of a shield.
Again, we're basically talking makeup mirrors here.
It seems to me that "small, portable, handheld mirror" implies a mirror that actually fits in your hand—something around the size of a makeup mirror. I really don't think a mirrored shield qualifies. If that were the case, a mirror the size of a shield with a handle on the back would be an equally valid choice. I don't think such an item qualifies as small (it's more in the medium-sized dry goods category), portable (it wouldn't fit in most bags), or handheld (it is carry-able, but does not fit in the palm of your hand). If a theoretical mirror the size of a shield doesn't pass, I don't think a mirror that is also a shield passes.
Large mirror can be full length mirrors or even wall mirrors. By comparison to such large mirrors, a shield sized one is small. Portable means easy to move and a shield qualifies. Handheld means designed to be held in the hand...
I can't see any part of "small, portable, handheld mirror" that a mirrored shield doesn't fit. I mean you could rule that RAI is for a compact mirror but I don't see a compelling argument for that to be the RAW. If that's what they means, they could have described it like the Enigma Mirror: "small circular hand mirror" vs "small, portable, handheld mirror." If they wanted a hand mirror or a compact mirror or a specific size/bulk limit, it's easily done.
PS: I should note the Enigma Mirror is a spellheart that can be attached to armor and weapons and I don't see that an implement would have to be small enough to tape on to a dagger.
If we're dealing with realism: mirrors don't respond to impact well. That shield will get beaten up and lose that perfect reflection in any combat where you use it which means it won't function as a mirror. It also won't work as a mirror implement whenever you Raise it, since you're now using it as a shield and can't point it at the angles necessary for the mirror tricks to work.
Look at Burnished Plating [highly polished metal plates] for armor: "When you are critically hit by an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, burnished plating stops working until someone spends 10 minutes repairing and polishing it; this doesn't require a Crafting check." So I don't see why a shield, especially one not used to block, would be any more prone to damage.
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This is just bad faith semantics. Portable generators and portable mirrors are both portable, but what "portable" is for each entails something wholly different in context. The same goes for "small" (some generators are small... relative to other generators) and "handheld" (some have a handle and can be carried, though you wouldn't want to do it for long periods of time). A portable mirror would not weigh double digit pounds, and so on.
When people say "but my shield is small, handheld, and portable, too!" they're equivocating on what those words mean in the same way. Small, handheld, and portable cash out differently when applied to a shield and a mirror. Language is contextual. "RAW" does not mean "read without any semblance of context or understanding of the conventions of the English language."
If I were actually going to entertain this at all, I'd point out that the only kind of shield that could remotely qualify to be "small, handheld, and portable" in the same way as a mirror is a very small buckler, and even a buckler is still wider than a typical hand mirror. You'll further note that by RAW, bucklers do strange things with hand requirements, and the mirror should occupy your hand, so that really should not work.
Just because language is contextual and sometimes vague, and they didn't specify the mirror's exact dimensions, doesn't mean this is actually unclear or an issue with RAW.
EDIT: Especially at Red Griffyn: At bottom, this all just seems like someone intentionally conflating mirror in the sense of "an object purpose-designed to reflect images and do essentially nothing else" with mirror in the sense of "any reflective surface." Contextually, it seems pretty obvious that the intent is for you to use an actual mirror made for the purpose of being a mirror.
This is just bad faith semantics. Portable generators and portable mirrors are both portable, but what "portable" is for each entails something wholly different in context.
That's the thing though, I agree context matters but I disagree with the conclusion. As for as mirror go, a shield sized one IS small, even if we include portable. A full length mirror is portable [capable of being transported or conveyed]. So, it checks off portable and it's small for a portable one and the only other requirement is handheld and shield is be definition held/wielded in one hand. You have a compact mirror set in your mind as the only possible option, but nothing suggest that is the required size.
Now, lets go out on a limb and say it has to be TINY like a compact: nothing prevents you from having a mirror that size on a shield with the 'frame' as the shield in the place a boss/spike would be. It's still a small portable hand held mirror.
PS: looking with google, it didn't take long to find a hand mirror that's 16" x 10" [a barbers mirror]. With bucklers maxing out around 18" diameter, it seems quibble to say a buckler is too big.
If we're dealing with realism: mirrors don't respond to impact well. That shield will get beaten up and lose that perfect reflection in any combat where you use it which means it won't function as a mirror. It also won't work as a mirror implement whenever you Raise it, since you're now using it as a shield and can't point it at the angles necessary for the mirror tricks to work.Look at Burnished Plating [highly polished metal plates] for armor: "When you are critically hit by an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, burnished plating stops working until someone spends 10 minutes repairing and polishing it; this doesn't require a Crafting check." So I don't see why a shield, especially one not used to block, would be any more prone to damage.
The idea that a shield is only ever actually impacted if you shield block doesn't make a ton of sense since that AC bonus is coming from somewhere. Considering that armor itself is getting impacted and the AC represents its ability to deflect/absorb blows, the idea that a shield is somehow not doing that except when you shield block doesn't pass a smell test.
A shield is only ever actually getting severely damaged when you shield block with it, but a mirror is a fragile object and even a glancing blow that wouldn't really do anything to a heavy shield is going to do a lot of damage to a mirror.
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Its just that simple. Lets look at a mirror finish shield:
1.) Yes a shield can be selected as an implement generally
Only if it's one of the listed implement options, which its generally not.
There's also a question of if its even "Handheld" if its strapped to your arm, as the description of shields clearly indicates they are. I don't think that fits the common definition of "Handheld".
2.) No a handheld object that functions as a mirror is not prohibited. Just because it serves multiple functions doesn't impact its ability to execute those functions simultaneously.
Yep.
3.) Yes, the shield is the mirror implement and thus you are holding an 'other implement' so IE works.
If you're ruling it any other way you're applying your incredulity as a principle. Incredulity doesn't inform RAW and it certainly is over used to inform RAI. Cite a real rule that prevents this from working and maybe you'll have a position to discuss.
Since you're so keen on citing real rules: cite a rule that says you actually can make a mirror reflective shield. The only thing in the game that mentions anything like this is a level 18 shield. So it's quite something of you to demand everyone else cite rules when you've premised your entire argument on "I decided this exists."
As for realism, you know you can use the shield to improve AC without shield blocking right? If you want to be a punitive GM then they could always just 'not block'. The class doesn't even get shield block, so you'd have to invest a general feat to even reach the situation you're concerned about for you to attempt to nerf your player. For most of human history mirrors were simply polished bits of metal (especially made of silver, a metal we have access to in the setting) so trying to pretend like this can't be true in a fantasy universe is the real unconvincing argument.
The shield is providing AC while its raised somehow, and its not because "this is not in the way of swings and never getting hit". That's the entire premise of how armor works and the shield is in the way to deflect or interfere with blows is why its giving an AC bonus when its raised. Arguing "realism" and then also arguing a raised shield is going to provide defense while simultaneously never actually being struck by a weapon is certainly... a choice.
It doesn't matter normally because a normal shield is tough. A mirror is fragile. That the designers decided to make the game decision that normal shields don't actually take HP damage unless you use a separate reaction doesn't mean the shield is never actually getting dinged in a fight, because by that reasoning armor is also never getting dinged in a fight and in that case how is it providing any AC?
As for 'how the magical mirror implement 'reflects an illusion of yourself 15ft away that tangibly manifests and can strike out and harm someone". Now you've reached the limits of 'what has historical support' to 'something that literally can't happen' in the real world. You're at the 'magic' part of the magic system so describing how you think real physics would achieve the end 'magic' result is pointless. That isn't just a 'convenient line to draw either'. That's the rule you should apply always (i.e., phsysics will never satisfactorily describe magic but history can inform supporting context). I too don't have real physics or historical examples to explain how a mirror could teleport me, allow me to interact with the world, and somehow get swoll up enough to cause 2 weapon damage/dice extra on my melee strikes. Welcome to the 'gamification' of the game you play. There is nothing describing the actual mechanics of how this 'magic works' thus imposing your expectations/feigned incredulity is not convincing. Magic works because magic works is basically the answer for half the things in the game unless they go out of their way to actually describe how it works.
As for this only working with a shield. Again, on what basis. Literally any polished metal surface with a 'mirror like finish' should work. Could be a katana, could be a gauntlet, could be bracers. The only actual restriction is the thing has to be 'hand held' (so something like bracers won't work due to the #2) restrictive language in the mirror implement rules text. If you can think of any other kind of mirror like materials that will also work. Crystals, a fancy jar of liquid, a disk of mercury in a glass/plastic petri dish, etc. can cause reflections/refraction. Lots of things 'refelect/refract' images so if you're picturing everything as fragile glass you're smuggling in a tone of needless and incorrect presuppositions of what constitutes a 'mirror'.
If you're trying to say only 'a mirror implement' can be more ambiguous thus clearly they meant for very narrow object selection, you're wrong again. Regalia can be basically anything (could even be a shield lol). Most of the implements have a range of descriptions they can or can't be so even that argument isn't good.
So it needs to be realistic right up until realism doesn't work for you, at which point "its magic" kicks in? That's awfully convenient.
It seems pretty obvious that the mirror takes an action to use because you are using the mirror to reflect an image of yourself (that gets magically augmented). In fact, literally the first two words of the action are "You reflect". The whole thing is "You reflect an illusory image of yourself into another unoccupied space within 15 feet that you can see", so we know magic is involved, but the fact that it says reflect explicitly makes it very clear you need to be visible in the mirror for this to work.
How exactly are you reflecting an image of yourself with a shield you have strapped to your arm (per the definition of shields) and maybe positioned to protect yourself (per the definition of Raise Shield)?
This class struggles to even have actions to do exploit vulnerability, move, strike. That is extra true for the mirror implement that take an extra action to use once per round and is not coincident with 'raise shield' as an action. That 15ft might not even get you to the next enemy so there are turns you can't use it if you want to hit. Its worse than the magus. There aren't many times they are going to have actions to spare to even raise the shield so your attempt here to 'protect the fictional RAI sacred game balance' is actually you just stopping a thaumaturge from raising their shield ~once a combat at best. What are you really trying to achieve by clinging on overly restrictive notions of thaumaturge implements?
Hey, you finally hit the real point: this class has to balance actions, hands, and implements. That's its thing. You're trying to circumvent that by using semantics to rules lawyer your way out of a fundamental design choice that was made with the class.
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My thought is that if it is able to be used as a shield (meaning you can get a +2 bonus to AC by using the Raise Shield action with it), then it is a shield.
And holding a shield disqualifies Implement's Empowerment.
It doesn't matter if the shield is also a mirror implement or not. Or a Regalia implement or not. Or even a wand implement or not. If it works as a shield, then it is a shield too. And holding a shield turns off Implement's Empowerment.
If you want a shield-sized mirror strapped to your arm, that is fine. But it won't give you an AC bonus if raised, or have shield attachments applied on it, or be usable for shield block. It is a mirror implement. Not a shield.
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Nothing in implements empowerment says it can no work on a shield. It just needs to be an implement.
There isn't a Shield Implement. You can only turn items into an Implement if they are items of the same type.
If you acquire a new object of the same general implement type, you can switch your implement to the new object
So you can't have a Mirror/Shield Implement.
You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit.
If you are holding a shield, you are holding something other than a single one-handed weapon, an implement, or esoterica.
So yes. There absolutely is something in Implement's Empowerment that says it cannot work while holding a shield.
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What I am arguing is if a shield can be an implement. "of the same general type" is very vague, and up to the GM's digression.
I don't think it is that vague.
If you are able to use it as a shield, then it is a shield item type.
A mirror is a held item type, not a shield item type.
It is like saying that a greatsword is long and thin and therefore wand-shaped and is a wand implement, and not a weapon. That doesn't work either. If you are using it to Strike with, the greatsword is still a two-handed weapon and will turn off Implement's Empowerment.