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Magus should be more than just "you need everything to align and get lucky to get overkill damage".
It lacks on a lot of aspects.
And you shouldn't need to use archetypes to fix broken aspects of a class.
If you need it to function, the class should have it to begin with
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Sentinel, done.
At what, 8th level? "Just take an archetype" isn't a good excuse on a class infamous for being joined at the hip to a very specific archetype, and forgoing that archetype just for better defenses defeats one of the major points of picking Int on a Magus in the first place.
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It's really starting to sound like the excuses you hear in 5e.
"It's fine you just have to homebrew this and that"
Just that it's
"Magus is fine, you just need to take two archetypes, rely a lot on consummable items, always have the same two stat distribution and pray that your team babies you constantly"
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To be fair Vicious Swing has an upgrade at level 6 (so at the same time a Magus would get IW if we go that route) that makes it count as a single attack toward MAP. And it only costs 2 actions because no recharge, and no ressource expenditure. A fighter can easily do a normal strike then Vicious swing early on if they don't need to move for extra damage.
Actually let's compare !
At level 6 a fighter who opens with Vicious Swing then a normal strike, on average:
Both longswords, magus with cascade
Fighter: 3d8+6 and 2d8+6 = Average 35 damage
Magus: 2d8+5 and 6d8 (amped) = average 41 damage
Magus no amp: 2d8+5 and 4d8 = average 32
At level 15
Fighter: 5d8+13+3d8+13 = 62
Magus no amp:2d8+14+9d8 = 63
Magus amp: 2d8+14+16d8 = 95
So yeah with time Magus will overtake the vicious swing combo at higher level. But vicious swing is overall more reliable (less variance in damage and fighter higher accuracy) and much easier to deploy at no ressource cost.
But again: yes magus spellstrike when spending ressources is strong.
Nobody disputes that. This isn't the subject and for the love of aroden can we move from that ?
Magus gets spells slots, sure. But they are needed to be as good as everyone claims its damage is (unless psychic cheese).
It can get access to powerful utility and support "on level" which is very good, yes. But its still a big sacrifice to their main class feature.
I don't see why it seems so hard to see that.
yeah a magus can have wall of stone right when the spell is available. It can be super useful to have.
But that's 1 fourth of their slots.
Does a wizard fills a fourth of their slots wall of stone ? It may take a third of their highest ranking slot on level, but at high level the wizard keeps getting more and more slot. So having 2 or 3 wall of stone prepared is a negligeable cost to them.
For a magus, it'll always be 25% of their spell budget.
And again: yes you have some feats to more easily use scrolls for subclasses that can't have a free hand easily.
Yes you can use staves and wands (and staves are way easier to use within fuse staff with the new errata, thanks for that) but once again, it's not the point. It could be interresting to check which staves have useful spells that don't need to spend all charges on for spellstrike though, to remain useful.
Also, regarding save spells DC and penalty.
To those who think its too good. here's a suggestion:
It's a feat.
It takes a 2 action strike to setup on the turn prior.
And it benefits all spellcasters in the team, or only the next spell.
Riving Strike (feat level 6 or whatever) 2 actions:
Condition: You are in the Arcane Cascade Stance
Make a strike, if you hit and deal damage the targets suffers a penalty to their saves against spells. This penalty lasts until the end of your next turn or until it rolls a save against a spell, whichever comes first.
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Oh because you somehow know the majority of opinions ?
Not that its relevant anyway.
A thing can be popular and flawed.
Sure Strike sure was a popular spell, that didn't stop it from being nerfed.
I dunno about "the majority of players" but I imagine if you only play magus for that, after a point it gets boring.
I did see a lot of people sharing their story of changing character after playing Starlit Span magus for a while and getting bored of it. The novelty of massive damage wear off after a while if there is nothing else going on.
Also you're completely wrong about archetypes.
Archetypes are there to expand options or specialize your playstyles in way that are not necesseraly "expected" by your class. or to enhance something it already has.
Sentinel is great if you want to do something original like a heavy armored sorcerer for example.
Or Bastion is a fun way for your monk to use shields in a way that isn't usually what the class does.
Etc etc
You can also use them to enhance your class.
But they aren't meant to fix them.
A fighter doesn't need to get the mauler archetype to be able to use two handed weapons.
Why bother giving archery feats to monk when the archer archetype exists then ?
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Why are you even there then ? Are you afraid something will change and make the class non functional or something ?
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Well we just disaggree then.
We have our suggestions, you're not interrested, that's it. No use to continue this.
Anyhow, happy new year Gunter !
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Thank Groetus someone gets it
Honestly that's just one of the issues, I think.
But it's one so big it monopolizes conversation because anytime you say magus has issue or doesn't work that nicely you get hit by the
"Yeah but imaginary weapon though"
Imagine if fighter had like no feats at all for attacks and stuff. like at most you got vicious swing and that's about it.
You point out the class lacks options and you always have to archetype into suff like mauler, archer, duelist to get anything good.
And everyone says
"Yeah but +2 to attack tho"
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The archetypes are designed so that they don't have to bake this s*@+ I to every class but can give you the option for it without pulling it out of the power budget. That's why they exist.
Absolutely not. Archetypes exist to take on a new dimension to your character's theme and playstyle. They do not exist to make up for inherent deficiencies in your class. If a character has to take an archetype for their class to be functional, their class is missing something.
What would you remove from Magus to free up power budget for heavy armour? Because you'd have to give up something.
The Magus just got a direct buff via errata in the latest round. What concrete evidence do you have to state the Magus would need a nerf to gain this benefit? You yourself state the class isn't exceptionally powerful:
As a class Magus is fine. It's middle of the pack with huge high moments.
FWIW, I would in fact be willing to nerf the Magus to gain this kind of buff, even if I can't speak for anyone else. I'd be happy to sacrifice the upper end of their burst damage, particularly at early levels, for instance.
Also yeah, you can grab it late. Take Armour Proficiency until you have space, or just skip Psychic.
If you grab it late, you spend a third of your levels, most of your levels in most campaigns, with awful Ref saves. Skipping Psychic itself is a massive tradeoff, and picking Armor Proficiency early enough for the poor Ref saves to not be felt requires picking a specific ancestry. All of these are tradeoffs that cannot simply be handwaved, and none disguise the fact that the Magus is an exceptionally MAD class when you attempt to build Int on top of their usual requirements.
I know I've played on several servers and therefore played with about 70 of them and other than like 3 min-maxers they'd take extra power because who wouldn't but they don't think it needs it.
A loud minority does not mean the class isn't working as intended.
What makes you believe your side is in the majority? Your evidence is purely anecdotal, and even 70 is itself only a tiny fraction of the total playerbase. Compare this to the Reddit thread I linked in the OP, which received literal thousands of upvotes, and the numbers do not favor you. This isn't to say that I believe my opinion is necessarily in the majority either, and there is no sense in making this a popularity contest when none of us know the exact statistics concerning player opinion of the Magus. All we can say for sure is that there is some amount of pervasive player feedback around the class, which appears to have been answered at least in part in recent errata. Giving this feedback is worthwhile regardless of consensus.
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I suppose I wasn't clear that I don't think Magus needs fixing, I offered Sentinel as an option for if you want to be tanky.
As a class Magus is fine. It's middle of the pack with huge high moments. That's a perfectly reasonable balance to have.
I think adding things to it is unnecessary.
I too believe that power-wise, the magus is fine - like I say, middle of the pack, with a lot of things to play with.
But it's mechanics-wise that the magus is lacking. It's just boring - and even for those who like to see big numbers, it loses its appeal pretty fast. It's really clunky and cumbersome.
Which is why I for one am not looking for a straight buff but more for some kind of revamp to alleviate the three-action routine.
For instance, how about this:
When you use two actions to spellstrike:
- Either your spellstrike as usual, per the current rules
- Or you store the energy on your weapon and can discharge it next round for free on a target at range (but it still counts towards your MAP).
This isn't a buff per se since you still need two actions + recharge to do your thing, but by allowing you to store it for another round, you let the magus be more free with his moves, spells and other actions.
(And yes, I know spellstrike isn't the end all be all of magus, but anything that helps him use his own mechanism is a good thing in my book).
I suppose I wasn't clear that I don't think Magus needs fixing, I offered Sentinel as an option for if you want to be tanky.
As a class Magus is fine. It's middle of the pack with huge high moments. That's a perfectly reasonable balance to have.
I think adding things to it is unnecessary.
I too believe that power-wise, the magus is fine - like I say, middle of the pack, with a lot of things to play with.
But it's mechanics-wise that the magus is lacking. It's just boring - and even for those who like to see big numbers, it loses its appeal pretty fast. It's really clunky and cumbersome.
Which is why I for one am not looking for a straight buff but more for some kind of revamp to alleviate the three-action routine.
For instance, how about this:
When you use two actions to spellstrike:
- Either your spellstrike as usual, per the current rules
- Or you store the energy on your weapon and can discharge it next round for free on a target at range (but it still counts towards your MAP).This isn't a buff per se since you still need two actions + recharge to do your thing, but by allowing you to store it for another round, you let the magus be more free with his moves, spells and other actions.
(And yes, I know spellstrike isn't the end all be all of magus, but anything that helps him use his own mechanism is a good thing in my book).
Thats a cool idea.
Actually there might be some things to figure out.Might needs some parameters on the range. unless something like a spellstrike with fireball gets to be thrown out to 500 ft on that next turn. Would the strike degree of success still have any role in determining the spell used for free the next turn for a spell attack spell?
The other issue is with using actions one turn for an effect the next in general. Are there any abilities like this in the game to compare to?
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A constructive idea might be to make arcane cascade a reaction that causes the magus to enter a stance. The trigger only works when casting a slotted spells and the stance lasts a minute.
Leave the current standard benefits and hybrid benefits as they are but at higher levels provide a boost of some kind to the slotted spell that triggered it.
Not sure what kind of boost but probably not direct math changers. Maybe tie this boost to the hybrid study. Benefits should meet needs of a higher level magus.
Make the element choice for strike damage based on any spell currently prepared by the magus instead of only based on the spell cast?Limits arcane cascade to the number of slotted spells a magus has for the day.
Uses a reaction instead of actions freeing up magus action economy.
Gives arcane cascade a higher level benefit based on hybrid study.
Actually I did just think of something going back to the idea I suggested to happen when you arcane cascade as a reaction.
For sparkling targe the higher level effect could be a force bubble that pops up around the magus while activating arcane cascade.It would be an emanation that lasts while the stance is up forcing a fort save for foes to move out of spaces occupied by the emanation.
Crit success - no effect
Success - treat squares in emanation as difficult terrain
Fail - foes movement is interrupted ending the move action
crit fail - as fail but foe is also dejected by the force bubble causing it to be knocked prone
maybe a limit on the ability would be needed depending on what level it is given at like the effect can only affect each foe once for the duration of the ability.
I suppose I wasn't clear that I don't think Magus needs fixing, I offered Sentinel as an option for if you want to be tanky.
As a class Magus is fine. It's middle of the pack with huge high moments. That's a perfectly reasonable balance to have.
I think adding things to it is unnecessary.
I too believe that power-wise, the magus is fine - like I say, middle of the pack, with a lot of things to play with.
But it's mechanics-wise that the magus is lacking. It's just boring - and even for those who like to see big numbers, it loses its appeal pretty fast. It's really clunky and cumbersome.
Which is why I for one am not looking for a straight buff but more for some kind of revamp to alleviate the three-action routine.
For instance, how about this:
When you use two actions to spellstrike:
- Either your spellstrike as usual, per the current rules
- Or you store the energy on your weapon and can discharge it next round for free on a target at range (but it still counts towards your MAP).This isn't a buff per se since you still need two actions + recharge to do your thing, but by allowing you to store it for another round, you let the magus be more free with his moves, spells and other actions.
(And yes, I know spellstrike isn't the end all be all of magus, but anything that helps him use his own mechanism is a good thing in my book).
Most magus players want boring, but effective.
If you want some kind of hybrid caster, you can already build that by either going base caster and adding on martial or going martial and adding on caster.
Magus is built to be a simple, highly effective spellstriking damage hammer. It was way overpowered in PF1 with spellstriking and regular casting with a ton of spells.
About all I want for the magus is a smoothing over of things like Arcane Cascade. It's action sequence is as it is because Spellstriking is powerful. If they weakened it, then it wouldn't be great. If you strengthen it, it's way too powerful.
You only have three focus points, so focus spells have to be very focused and effective, which they are.
There's not much room for alteration of the magus action sequence when it comes to Spellstriking. Spellstrike is already a 3 action activity compressed into two actions with focus spells compressing actions further to create a real focused, boss killer damage hammer.
Magus, Fighter, Rogue, and Barbarian are three of the most focused boss killers in the game.
A constructive idea might be to make arcane cascade a reaction that causes the magus to enter a stance. The trigger only works when casting a slotted spells and the stance lasts a minute.
Leave the current standard benefits and hybrid benefits as they are but at higher levels provide a boost of some kind to the slotted spell that triggered it.
Not sure what kind of boost but probably not direct math changers. Maybe tie this boost to the hybrid study. Benefits should meet needs of a higher level magus.
Make the element choice for strike damage based on any spell currently prepared by the magus instead of only based on the spell cast?Limits arcane cascade to the number of slotted spells a magus has for the day.
Uses a reaction instead of actions freeing up magus action economy.
Gives arcane cascade a higher level benefit based on hybrid study.Actually I did just think of something going back to the idea I suggested to happen when you arcane cascade as a reaction.
For sparkling targe the higher level effect could be a force bubble that pops up around the magus while activating arcane cascade.
It would be an emanation that lasts while the stance is up forcing a fort save for foes to move out of spaces occupied by the emanation.
Crit success - no effect
Success - treat squares in emanation as difficult terrain
Fail - foes movement is interrupted ending the move action
crit fail - as fail but foe is also dejected by the force bubble causing it to be knocked pronemaybe a limit on the ability would be needed depending on what level it is given at like the effect can only affect each foe once for the duration of the ability.
You know even though that would be a cool ability for a targe magus the class can already by level 5 cast things like Pillar of water or Shifting sands or gravity well.
They can already do similar things with magic.So really if they can do it with spells its probably not going to be given to them through other means. Ok ive argued myself out of it.
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Most magus players want boring, but effective.
If you want some kind of hybrid caster, you can already build that by either going base caster and adding on martial or going martial and adding on caster.
Magus is built to be a simple, highly effective spellstriking damage hammer. It was way overpowered in PF1 with spellstriking and regular casting with a ton of spells.
About all I want for the magus is a smoothing over of things like Arcane Cascade. It's action sequence is as it is because Spellstriking is powerful. If they weakened it, then it wouldn't be great. If...
You can't speak for the majority of players.
And even then, it doesn't mean much.If someone expresses a frustration with the class, and explains the reasoning behind it, it can't just be "you're bad".
It was shown over and over and over what the pain points are, potential suggestions, elements that are blocking potential changes because of unintended synergies etc
Nobody wants a boring class.
Some might want a straightforward class, and that's totally fair.
But no majority of player wants to be bored "but hey at least I do a lot of damage sometimes".
And again, you do not address the actual points made.
Nobody is asking for the magus to get 3 spell slots of every rank, or to get power attack but better, or for spellstrike to be one action or stuff like that.
The closest thing to a direct power boost was my suggestion of a penalty to saves during spellstrike to give more variety in character options.
And even on that I revised it several times with the concerns it would be too strong.
Including the last suggestion that makes it a support for *any* spellcaster in the party.
Because here's an aspect of the magus that's under developped:
It's caster aspect supports its martial one yes. But you don't have much that does it the other way around.
It's a shame for the gish class to not have its martial aspect have ways to support its magical one or support the party.
It something worth exploring or expanding.
Or else we just leave the class as it has been since release, never add any feat while core classes keep getting new ones every other book.
I don't see anyone complaining about fighter getting a whole selection of new feats.
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Kalaam I would be surprised if they didn't revamp the class in a remaster version.
Probably in ways none of us expect even.
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Let us hypothetically make two characters that are both going to be in the same party in the same Pathfinder 2e game, using no variant rules.
Let's next say that both characters start with the same ancestry, base class and attribute distribution, and they both pick Magus as their class. As they level up and choose different class feats/dedication feats, as long as they don't make incredibly awful decisions, theoretically these two characters should stay roughly as strong as each other right? There should never be a point where one character does 25-40% more damage for less resource cost than the other correct?
This isn't the case if one Magus takes a dedication to get either Fire Ray or Imaginary Weapon, and the other doesn't. One will be significantly stronger than the other. This is a significant problem with Magus and these spells that needs addressing, as it warps all discussion around the class and makes it difficult to judge whether any of the other problems that people bring up are actually relevant or not.
I feel like if there is ever a remaster of this class, this is Big Issue #1 that needs to be looked at. New players bounce off of this class (and sometimes this game) because they want to play a gish character in their own way, and then they find out that there is an objectively stronger way to build their character that they "should" have done and understandably aren't very happy about it.
This can be said of any caster poaching Imaginary Weapon or Fire Ray.
I poach it on my regular casters and use it with reach. It's much, much stronger mainly due to the Amp. The base spell is slightly stronger, but the amped spell is nutty.
What does this mean? Paizo is more likely to nerf Imaginary Weapon and the amp than boost the magus.
I guess that is fine as Gouging Claw is what you default to if Imaginary Weapon is taken away which I expect to happen at some point.
Imaginary Weapon is too good a cantrip. It's fine on the psychic which relies on amped cantrips, but giving it to regular casters and the magus makes it insanely powerful.
So I hope you're ok when imaginary weapon gets taken away from the magus without anything to compensate for it as I expect that to happen. Which is why I have gouging claw ready as my default magus cantrip as I can't see Paizo maintaining Imaginary Weapon at its current power level and available for regular casters and magus.
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Kalaam I would be surprised if they didn't revamp the class in a remaster version.
Probably in ways none of us expect even.
Quite possibly. But that's also why having those kind of discussions is important.
Pointing out pain points that could be addressed in a reprint.What expectations etc we have.
And even suggestions aren't bad to share either.
This can be said of any caster poaching Imaginary Weapon or Fire Ray.
[...]
Imaginary Weapon is too good a cantrip. It's fine on the psychic which relies on amped cantrips, but giving it to regular casters and the magus makes it insanely powerful.So I hope you're ok when imaginary weapon gets taken away from the magus without anything to compensate for it as I expect that to happen. Which is why I have gouging claw ready as my default magus cantrip as I can't see Paizo maintaining Imaginary Weapon at its current power level and available for regular casters and magus.
Yes the psychic dedication might need a nerf.
And yes I'm ready for it to impact magus.Heck at this point I am annoyed enough to want it to happen and for it to only give cantrip versions with no amps.
At least the conversation about magus daily ressource and balancing will finally be free of that black hole of a spell dragging everything to it.
Suggestions have been made (Striking Spell slots, similar to school spells of wizard for example as a counterpoint to studious spells) and being defeatist and going from the position of "devs won't change anything, why bother talking about it" will never bring anything positive to the table.
We might as well share ideas and discuss.
At worst, nothing comes from it officially, and some of us find neat houserules to use in their games.
At best, it gets noticed by the devs who then look into things and may change stuff around like they already did by allowing save spells with base spellstrike as they nerfed sure strike
Ok so two spells get changed and that takes care of one magus problem.
That would free up the discussion on how to balance it that's for sure.
I find it ridiculous that a class cannot be changed because of an unintended synergy outside of itself that is just too good.
Edit:
Also went to look at staves a bit. And stuff like staves of impossible vision, or dragon prism staff are pretty good for the low rank fear or phantom pain spells for example.