Pathfinder Society - Where is the actual pathfinding?

[The.Vortex]

Hello everyone,

Today I just want to state something that has been bothering me for a while now. Just so that I know that I have said it and thus there is the (probably small) chance for the Org Play team to see it and maybe think about it.

I started playing participating in Paizo Organized Play back in 2017, after having played Pathfinder locally with multiple groups since its inception and playtest. The first few adventure, as well as how the Society was described and received in the world of Golarion in all that time has more than likely heavily colored my perception of it as an entity.

Back in First Edition, at for a time in second edition as well, the Pathfinder Society was concerned with Archeology and Exploration. Not without reason they were seen as Tomb Raiders by some. There even were Factions like the Scarab Sages, that specifically focused on things like that. And I really enjoyed that.

But there came a point, where the scenarios became less and less concerned with themes like that. I honestly can't remember the last time I acutally GMed or played a scenario that, from the onset, had the exploration of ancient ruins as its theme. And I think that is a shame.

More often then not nowadays, adventures are either rooted in some stuff about big NPCs (which I mostly don't give a rats a$$ about, like the whole stories about The Waterfall or the hag a few seasons back) and less about exploration and discovery. There have even been adventures like A Lie told to Strangers where, after hearing the introduction, my only thought was: "Yes, there is probably a bad thing happening there. But WHY IN THE WORLD does the Pathfinder Society care about that? We are not investigators and prosecutors, we are explorers!"

Looking at the current faction descriptions in the PFS Guide, it feels like the Grand Archive is the correct faction for the type of adventure I am looking for. There was exactly ONE scenario in Season 5 with Grand Archive Tag - and that one had you work at the whim of a poisoner to get new supplies.
Looking at Season 4, Seeking the Heart of Calamity and the following adventures in that storyline might be the closest to the type of adventures I am looking for in the last two years.

I just hope that we can maybe change direction again at some point and get more adventures that feel like we are part of a society of explorers and archeologists, and more storylines that revolve less around some big NPCs that you probably only care about if you played the PFS1 storylines that introduced them way back when.

TL;DR: Please bring back more exploration, archeology and actual trailblazing / pathfinding to the Pathfinder Society!

PS: Maybe it is just me and most other players enjoy the newer style of stories more than I do. That is fine, too. I am not trying to force my style onto anyone. I just wanted to have at least said something.

[cavernshark]

This post reminds me a bit of this other post about there being to many leaders in the Society, to the point that it's difficult to get connected to specific faction leaders.

I've been playing since 2014 and feel a bit similarly to you -- especially over the last few seasons (3, 4, and 5 specifically). The metaplot simply hasn't captured me in the same way that other seasons did. Even Season 1, which had a relatively soft metaplot, felt like we were reopening and exploring things for the society as a whole.

My favorite arcs so far have not been metaplot related (season 2 being the exception), but are instead continuous development arcs where we're either exploring new things or dealing with the aftermath of major world events: the three Pallid Peak scenarios, exploring the Azlanti ruins of Blackwood swamp, or exploring and dealing with the aftermath of emergence of the Gravelands. Season 2 felt similar in that we were focusing on exploring and dealing with our own exploration of the Cyclopean ruins in Iobaria. Even when that metaplot had us in other regions, it generally tied back to that exploration.

I think back to PFS 1 seasons and they felt similarly more tied to a theme than any particular NPC. Season 4 was all about ancient Thassilon and it allowed you develop strong feelings about Shield Heidmarch. I'm hopeful for this season since it ties so heavily into the Godsrain and is also continuing arcs like the Mountain of Sea and Sky (also loosely connected to Forest of Spirits).

All that said, I can certainly accept that my brain is tinged with a certain amount of nostalgia for some of the earlier seasons and it may also be that I'm missing a lot of the rougher edges. So I'll just emphasize that I'd like to see more development along stories where the Society is actively exploring new regions / ruins that might not be tied to the meta plot of a given season.

[UnforcedError]

In the last couple of years I kept missing the uniqueness each scenario had in the earlier seasons. Most of those were really good at creating a unique atmosphere for their location, be it Finnadar Forest, the Forest of Spirits, or Immenwood, Razmiran or New Thassilon, they excelled at introducing the different ambiances or at painting a snapshot of the locations. They also added unique or at least special plot elements, even mini-games to scenarios (yes, also exploring unknown territories, but I loved the fight against the elements in e.g. Tarnbreaker's Trail, the castle renovation and conspiraton part of Lodge of the Living God, the explore-against-the-clock part in Burden of Envy, the babysitting of the crazy iruxi in Fantastic March of Urwal only to mention a few). In comparison, last season felt many times repetitive with a scenario containing three fights and a chase / discovery-influence or two. [I must say I don't hate the chace or infiltration / obstacle mechanics as long as they're not part of every second scenario, but I loathe discovery-influence with passion by now...] And there were not many memorable locations, NPCs, exciting plot-twists with the exception of Csilla's story (the Equal Exchanges line), where I really enjoyed the scenario plots and the encounters in general I just couldn't relate to Csilla at all. Maybe she was introduced in PF1 somewhere and people knew her. I just didn't, so to me the story arc began with some random masked entity having trouble.
As for the Pallid Peak arc that was mentioned: we had two nice scenarios leading up to the special where I really waited for the great revelation, exploring a long lost dwarven city, but then the special cut off at the gates !!! I expected some follow-up on that in season 4 or 5, maybe a metaplot arc, or just a high level scenario or another special.
On the other hand I'm happy with season 6 so far, 6-00 had a great ambiance pirating near the storm, 6-01 has the starts of a maybe good plothole, probably some NPCs who might become interesting later, and a few good fights, 6-02 revisits the Mountain of Sea and Sky and Tian Xia - always a pleasure :) - while we're suffering the after-effects of a god dying. Given the plot it had to happen in a remote location, great idea to bring back Kayajima again.
Here's to hoping things change or bring back some of the old atmosphere...

[Alison-Cybe]

The.Vortex wrote:

There have even been adventures like A Lie told to Strangers where, after hearing the introduction, my only thought was: "Yes, there is probably a bad thing happening there. But WHY IN THE WORLD does the Pathfinder Society care about that? We are not investigators and prosecutors, we are explorers!"

As I wrote the scenario, I have to give a slightly meta answer to this, which ultimately amounts to "If they don't, there is no adventure for your players to play this week." There are times suspension of disbelief has to take a back-seat to playing a game with friends.

[The.Vortex]

Alison-Cybe wrote:

The.Vortex wrote:

There have even been adventures like A Lie told to Strangers where, after hearing the introduction, my only thought was: "Yes, there is probably a bad thing happening there. But WHY IN THE WORLD does the Pathfinder Society care about that? We are not investigators and prosecutors, we are explorers!"

As I wrote the scenario, I have to give a slightly meta answer to this, which ultimately amounts to "If they don't, there is no adventure for your players to play this week." There are times suspension of disbelief has to take a back-seat to playing a game with friends.

Thanks for the reply and I totally get that. But it still isn't really a satisfactory answer for someone who has already been struggling with the direction many of the newer scenarios have been going. The PFS scenarios were more than a random assortment of disconnected adventures in the past. I cannot say the same for many of the more recent adventures!

[Squark]

As far as the current season goes, the four scenarios released so far aren't exploratory, but deal with reacting to the Godsrain (6-02, 6-03, and 6-03) and/or fulfilling the Society's obligations, either socially (6-01 and 6-04 both deal with the society being invited to an important social function and being somewhat obligated to attend) or to its allies (6-03 involves the pathfinders doing favors for allies in Rahadoum). I get the feeling this probably going to characterize a lot of this season- Much of what the scenarios involve will be either investigating the godsrain and the warshards, or helping the society's allies deal with the fallout.

[PF Mexican non union equivalent]

I for one will welcome our returning grave robbing overlords.

[Quentin Coldwater]

I think it's because of the pendulum swinging in different directions. Most seasons focus on a certain theme and the fallout around that. Last few seasons have been rather social in nature, so all the metaplots will focus on that as well. Eventually, the story will move away from that and find new themes to explore.

Another thing to consider is Pathfinder's now over fifteen-year history. A lot of scenarios currently are callbacks to other scenarios or earlier adventures, and unless you only explore only part of a bigger complex (such as the Pallid Peak), there's only so many ancient dungeons to discover. As mentioned earlier, there have been a lot of social events lately, and it's easier to write cause-and-effect stories around that. And those can theoretically be produced infinitely: Pathfinders meddle in business A, piss off group B. While fighting group B, group C gets involved, and so on. This is a practically infinite well of ideas and potential twists and turns. There's only so many ways to write an innovative dungeon delve.
That said though, I do feel like Pathfinder Society is starting to lean more and more heavily on its history and previously published content. I get the feeling a lot of scenarios are referencing (or needing prior knowledge of to enjoy fully) other scenarios. Sometimes I miss the simplicity of "open door, smash everything that moves, and move on." But like I said, there's only so many original ideas, and I feel like much of Golarion has already been "filled in," so at some point you'll just have to build on what exists.

I do feel like a lot of seasons require knowledge of the metaplot to enjoy, which is a shame. Not all players are able to play all the scenarios, and keeping up with the Society story isn't always an option. It's an extension of the my previous point, but I feel like earlier seasons, and also the earlier seasons in PFS1 were much more standalone in nature (I joined during Season 5 of PF1, and really started to follow the story in Season 6). It's a matter of balancing the pros and cons of an ongoing narrative (pro: lots of investment) against freestanding adventures (pro: easy to hop in), I guess.

[The.Vortex]

Quentin Coldwater wrote:

It's a matter of balancing the pros and cons of an ongoing narrative (pro: lots of investment) against freestanding adventures (pro: easy to hop in), I guess.

I get your point, but unfortunately for me (and many others I have talked to in our groups here) weren't able to connect to the ongoing narratives of the past few seasons very well. The whole Waterfall storyline completely fell flat, and the whole "the maze is acting crazy" thing wasn't much of a story, either.

And at that point, the investment can even become a detriment, because you have those plots that the people just don't care about, but which take up a lot of space in the season.

Quentin Coldwater wrote:

and unless you only explore only part of a bigger complex (such as the Pallid Peak)

Don't remind me of THAT special. It ended right when it would have started to become interesting!

[cavernshark]

The.Vortex wrote:

Don't remind me of THAT special. It ended right when it would have started to become interesting!

I'm not so patiently waiting for when we get to go back with higher level characters and explore deeper.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

cavernshark wrote:

The.Vortex wrote:

Don't remind me of THAT special. It ended right when it would have started to become interesting!

I'm not so patiently waiting for when we get to go back with higher level characters and explore deeper.

Yeah... the way the special ended was pretty unfortunate - felt like it was cut short on the second of 3 acts. Our not going back for so many seasons, only makes it worse.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Alright, let's turn this around. Let's talk about where we want to explore! I love exploring the setting of a game deeply, meeting NPCs, seeing cool places, immersing myself in a new culture and feeling a part of a new place.

Here are some things that I want to explore more:

1. The rest of the Pallid Peak - yes, let me join the rest of the crowd in having more Pallid Peak stuff!

2. More Tian Xia! - There are so many nations there that we have barely touched. Let's see those other lodges that have joined the Lantern Lodge. Let's visit different countries. We've seen only the barest tastes of these. Let's do Goka's urbanity, Shen Men's haunted landscape, the underground hobgoblin empire of Rahk Lo. Let's go!

3. More Mwangi Expanse - Let's visit more of these lands.

4. Other Planes - The Season of Endless Exploration had lots of interactions with other planes, but not much actual travel to them, and I was really looking forward to that as a player.

5. More Arcadia - We have barely touched Arcadia, and there are so many possibilities.

6. Hermea - Because I love my forbidden fruit.

7. The Boneyard - Yeah, I am dead serious here. And I mean dead serious. It could be fascinating to have a high-level adventure where you get to help a psychopomp, or bring justice / closure to the dead.

8. Kyonin - We got to visit this place at the request of the Queen and cleared out a lot of demons. I think they could let us back in to do some slower-paced exploration, maybe alongside a team of elven archaeologists? Blessings of the Forest passed in an adrenaline rush, and did not let us really see the place.

9. Other Golarian-System Planets - We visited Akiton via the Maze of the Open Road, but we really did not get a chance to explore it. I would love a chance to visit planets of the Golarian system before the Gap, and before regular space travel.

10. Under the Sea - 'Cause life is much better where it is wetter! Let's explore the monastery that we protected in Crashing Wave!

And this is going to sound dumb, but... There are a bunch of places in the Inner Sea that we visited all the time in PF1 that we have not traveled to much in Pathfinder 2E. I'd love to see the Island of Averaka (my favorite dromaar home) again. Heck, I'd even welcome revisiting Varisia some more. Exploration does not always have to be exotic.

That's my list. What is yours?

[JohannVonUlm]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

That's my list. What is yours?

Great Question HMM. Here's mine:

1. What's up with Muesello? Last we saw, he was headed off for semi-retirement and asked for recommendations of new lines of study. I'm sure he's found something interesting.

2. I'd love to go back to Bhopan. Qxal has been defeated. What's life like on the island now? I'm sure there are unexplored ruins on that island to discover too.

3. Cyclopean ruins and flammable pine trees. We haven't plumbed the depths of the Finadar Forest yet.

4. Ditto Pallid Peak.

5. What's Star up to? An ancient Jistkan automaton -- Star could probably tip the Society off to locations of ruins or sites of interest.

[Gisher]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

That's my list. What's yours?

Everything on your list sounds fun, but I'll add Droon. Lizardfolk and dinosaurs takes me back to a childhood of Saturday mornings spent watching Land of the Lost. :)

[Shay Snow]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Alright, let's turn this around. Let's talk about where we want to explore! I love exploring the setting of a game deeply, meeting NPCs, seeing cool places, immersing myself in a new culture and feeling a part of a new place.

I appreciate this post! Part of the trick of walking into a position in the middle of an event (like Year 4!) is that you’re sort of playing catch-up and just grabbing at loose threads, haha. I love seeing what people want to see and explore <3

[Squark]

I'd love to see more of the other continents, especially regions that haven't been extensively covered like Casmaron's interior, the Western Arcadian Nations, and southern Garund or Tien Xia. A return to Bhopan could be fun too.

[Quentin Coldwater]

I'm always torn between letting the unknown be unknown - there is so much to explore already! - but on the other hand, that's where you get cool stuff. Arcadia feels like forbidden terrain, since so little has been done with it, but on the other hand, Bhopan was really fun. I'd say peel away those layers slowly. Revealing too much ruins the mystique.

I expect Kyonin to change after the Spore War AP. But yeah, Kyonin has been vastly underexplored.

Not sure what to do with Hermea (currently almost in the final book of a certain AP), but it definitely sounds interesting.

I'd like more aquatic-themed adventures (not necessarily underwater, though that is an option). Not too many, but having to deal with different environments is fun. A change of scenery and different problems to solve. It's just that underwater poses a lot of challenges to unprepared PCs.

I haven't seen much of Tar-Baphon, despite him being free. He's just sitting there (I know there's a high-level scenario revolving around him soon). I would've expected to see more of him in the last five years.

Maybe more exotic places, even within the Inner Sea? The Mana Wastes, Nex, or Geb been left relatively untouched. Realm of the Mammoth Lords and megafauna are always fun. Numeria and its death robots, gloomy Nidal, or some classic horror in Ustalav. Or more hobgoblin goodness in Oprak. Thuvia and the Sun Orchid, or the Sodden Lands and pirates in the Shackles. And of course New Thassilon!
Basically, most of the adventures lately (I feel) have been relatively traditionally Western fantasy. I'd like something that pushes into an interesting direction.