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Versatile Vials state that:
Quote: You can store all your versatile vials within your alchemist’s toolkit, with no increase to its Bulk. Though versatile vials are physical objects, they can’t be duplicated or preserved in any way. Alchemist toolkit states that:
Quote: This mobile collection of vials and chemicals can be used for simple alchemical tasks. If you wear your alchemist's toolkit, you can draw and replace them as part of the action that uses them We know that for Quick Alchemy, because the requirements are just to be wearing a toolkit, have an empty hand, and be able to "expend" a Versatile Vial, you don't first need to spend an action to "draw" the Vial itself.
BUT
Aren't you able, according to the toolkit and Versatile Vial descriptions and mechanics, vials stored in your toolkit, and drawing them is part of the Action that uses them?
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So, by RaW (and maybe even RaI seeing how weak Field Vials are), isn't drawing them part of the Action that uses them in general?
So, straight up throwing them as bombs, drinking them as field vials, and etc, should be incorporating the draw action for them by default, no?
I was writing a whole post agreeing that your idea has merit but also including potential arguments against but then reread Quick Bomber, which refers to having to draw a versatile vial before using it as a bomb. Unfortunately it looks like it is intended that you draw them before using them even as bombs or field vials
Quick Bomber, PC2 p.63 wrote: You keep your bombs and bomb-related reagents in easy-to-reach pouches from which you draw without thinking. You Interact to draw a bomb, draw a versatile vial, or use Quick Alchemy to create a bomb, then Strike with the bomb. If you have the ability to create more than one bomb at a time with Quick Alchemy (such as from the double brew class feature), you can Strike with only one of the bombs you create with this action.
Baarogue wrote: I was writing a whole post agreeing that your idea has merit but also including potential arguments against but then reread Quick Bomber, which refers to having to draw a versatile vial before using it as a bomb. Unfortunately it looks like it is intended that you draw them before using them even as bombs or field vials
Quick Bomber, PC2 p.63 wrote: You keep your bombs and bomb-related reagents in easy-to-reach pouches from which you draw without thinking. You Interact to draw a bomb, draw a versatile vial, or use Quick Alchemy to create a bomb, then Strike with the bomb. If you have the ability to create more than one bomb at a time with Quick Alchemy (such as from the double brew class feature), you can Strike with only one of the bombs you create with this action.
Inclusion of drawing in Quick Bomber doesn't contradicts the rules though. It could simply be there to cover all bases.
Plus, with Quick Bomber you can draw said Versatile Vials from wherever, while the base ability only allows if you have them inside your toolkit (putting them in is just an option, not a requirement of VVs after all).
So, even with Quick Bomber mention, I see nothing forbidding the toolkit to work as advertised.
As I implied, I like the idea. But the text of Quick Bomber is only the most likely evidence against that I anticipate. I'll leave it to everyone else to post theirs. Good luck in the coming argument
shroudb wrote: Plus, with Quick Bomber you can draw said Versatile Vials from wherever, while the base ability only allows if you have them inside your toolkit (putting them in is just an option, not a requirement of VVs after all). That's a very strange notion. If they can be there why wouldn't they always be there? We don't have equipment slots or other restrictions to prevent that.
And no, I don't think that 'vials' in alchemist’s toolkit's description and 'Versatile Vials' are or can be the same thing. So VVs aren't part of the alchemist’s toolkit. And without that you don't have any rules support for this idea.
BTW keeping VVs in the the toolkit already has an advantage of not counting their bulk.
Errenor wrote: shroudb wrote: Plus, with Quick Bomber you can draw said Versatile Vials from wherever, while the base ability only allows if you have them inside your toolkit (putting them in is just an option, not a requirement of VVs after all). That's a very strange notion. If they can be there why wouldn't they always be there? We don't have equipment slots or other restrictions to prevent that.
And no, I don't think that 'vials' in alchemist’s toolkit's description and 'Versatile Vials' are or can be the same thing. So VVs aren't part of the alchemist’s toolkit. And without that you don't have any rules support for this idea.
BTW keeping VVs in the the toolkit already has an advantage of not counting their bulk. Then why did they went to the trouble of having a full paragraph detailing that VVs go inside your Toolkit, something unique to them compared to every single other thing you make?
They explicitly go in the toolkit, why do you think they aren't part of it?
Imo, the only reasonable explanation to have them explicitly called out to go in there is to to use the actual mechanics of it.
As even you said, since in general you can put stuff wherever, they could simply put a - in bulk and don't write anything at all about storage. But there is a full paragraph on VVs just for their storage.
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Keeping in mind that the above, like your answer, is pointing to Rai, as far as Raw is concerned, the only RAW things about this interaction is:
A)You draw vials from your Toolkit with the same action that uses them.
B)You can put versatile vials inside your Toolkit.
I see no (Raw) reason why those two rules do not interact.
shroudb wrote: Then why did they went to the trouble of having a full paragraph detailing that VVs go inside your Toolkit, something unique to them compared to every single other thing you make? Because of this:
Errenor wrote: keeping VVs in the the toolkit already has an advantage of not counting their bulk. shroudb wrote: As even you said, since in general you can put stuff wherever, they could simply put a - in bulk and don't write anything at all about storage. But there is a full paragraph on VVs just for their storage. And the main thing in that paragraph is that they are temporary and can't be crafted normally/duplicated.
shroudb wrote:
Keeping in mind that the above, like your answer, is pointing to Rai, as far as Raw is concerned, the only RAW things about this interaction is:
A)You draw vials from your Toolkit with the same action that uses them.
B)You can put versatile vials inside your Toolkit.
I see no (Raw) reason why those two rules do not interact.
Because what you are doing is trying to squeeze mechanical advantage from pure flavour. It's not actually RAW, even though something is written and rules and flavour are kind of only vaguely distinct. So:
A) You don't 'draw' 'vials', you use your toolkit. It was 'vials' in CRB when there weren't any 'Versatile Vials' in the game. And it could be 'bottles', 'flasks', 'vessels' or 'phials' instead. No, it's not meaningful, it's just flavour.
B) You can put 'Versatile Vials' there. Specific items, not just general 'vials'.
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The way it reads to me, keeping the VV in your toolkit is intended to reduce the action economy aspect from 3 actions (draw > quick alchemy > use) down to 2 actions (draw from toolkit + quick alchemy > use).
This way you can spend 2 actions doing your alchemy business and still have 1 left over to stride or do whatever for the majority of your playtime.
Quick Bomber further compresses that down to 1 action for specific actions.
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Errenor wrote:
And no, I don't think that 'vials' in alchemist’s toolkit's description and 'Versatile Vials' are or can be the same thing.
Ah of course. The vials aren't vials. That makes a lot more sense.
Especially when you also consider
Errenor wrote: It's not actually RAW, even though something is written Even though the rules literally say something doesn't mean it's actually rules.
IDK why you're trying so hard to make alchemists worse.
Errenor wrote: shroudb wrote: Then why did they went to the trouble of having a full paragraph detailing that VVs go inside your Toolkit, something unique to them compared to every single other thing you make? Because of this:
Errenor wrote: keeping VVs in the the toolkit already has an advantage of not counting their bulk. shroudb wrote: As even you said, since in general you can put stuff wherever, they could simply put a - in bulk and don't write anything at all about storage. But there is a full paragraph on VVs just for their storage. And the main thing in that paragraph is that they are temporary and can't be crafted normally/duplicated.
shroudb wrote:
Keeping in mind that the above, like your answer, is pointing to Rai, as far as Raw is concerned, the only RAW things about this interaction is:
A)You draw vials from your Toolkit with the same action that uses them.
B)You can put versatile vials inside your Toolkit.
I see no (Raw) reason why those two rules do not interact.
Because what you are doing is trying to squeeze mechanical advantage from pure flavour. It's not actually RAW, even though something is written and rules and flavour are kind of only vaguely distinct. So:
A) You don't 'draw' 'vials', you use your toolkit. It was 'vials' in CRB when there weren't any 'Versatile Vials' in the game. And it could be 'bottles', 'flasks', 'vessels' or 'phials' instead. No, it's not meaningful, it's just flavour.
B) You can put 'Versatile Vials' there. Specific items, not just general 'vials'. a)If it was just the bulk, they could simply put a - in their bulk and not waste space.
There is a mechanical aspect in teh fact that the rules specifically say that the vials go inside the toolkit unlike evey other thing you make.
b)the rules specifically say "draw", so here's you're just wrong.
c)and as long as those "specific" vials are in there, there's absolutely no reason, RAW-wise, to not get every benefit ALL vials gets from being there.
Given the toolkit rules, I honestly don't see any reason why you couldn't leverage them to throw one of your renewable Versatile Vials with one action. And I suppose there are some build where this might come in handy every now and then.
Still, Versatile Vials are such a lackluster Bomb that I honestly think you'd be better off using them to Quick Alchemy:Create Consumable at all times and eat the extra Action to get a much better Bomb. I would take a Moderate Acid Flask over a Moderate Versatile Vial any day.
Quick Bomber remains far superior if you can spare the Feat slot.
ottdmk wrote: Given the toolkit rules, I honestly don't see any reason why you couldn't leverage them to throw one of your renewable Versatile Vials with one action. And I suppose there are some build where this might come in handy every now and then.
Still, Versatile Vials are such a lackluster Bomb that I honestly think you'd be better off using them to Quick Alchemy:Create Consumable at all times and eat the extra Action to get a much better Bomb. I would take a Moderate Acid Flask over a Moderate Versatile Vial any day.
Quick Bomber remains far superior if you can spare the Feat slot.
Oh for sure if it's just for bombing
But I think it does make sense though given the power level of the Versatile vials when you consider that toolkit:
As an example:
if you had to "draw" them, it doesn't make sense that the Quick Vial is exactly the same action economy wise but doesn't cost a resource.
But if we consider the toolkit, it actually makes sense: 1 action to attack with spending a Versatile vial (1 to draw+throw), 2 actions to attack without spending a vial (1 to make, 1 to throw).
Same thing with Field Vial benefits:
2 actions without spending resources (1 to make, 1 to drink/use), 1 action with spending resources (1 to drink/use+draw).
I think this interpretation has merit.
Is a Vial a vial?
I'd love to hear from the designers what the intent is!
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