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The alternate capstone descriptions says, When a character reaches 20th level, the following new abilities can be selected instead of the standard 20th level class ability which would normally be gained. In some cases, a capstone specifies what ability it replaces. A character can’t select an alternative capstone if she has previously traded away her class capstone via an archetype."
The last part is the the more important part, saying you cant take an alternate capstone if you have traded away your capstone for an archetype's capstone. My interpretation is that since crossblooded doesnt trade away or replace your capstone, merely letting you pick from two bloodlines capstone and choose one, you can replace it with unique bloodline. Mainly because it says replace instead of alter or modify which is quoted as the reason why crossblooded can't go with other archetypes like wildblooded or tattooed(tho those i play with and i allow combinations like crossblooded/tattooed or wildblooded).
But based on RAW, can i trade the sorcerer capstone with unique bloodline?
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A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.
The rules state that you cannot replace or alter the same class feature. The Alternate Capstones are archetypes that alter the capstone. The crossblooded also alters the capstone. Giving you a choice of two different capstones is altering the capstone. So, RAW they are not compatible. You GM can of course house rule that they are compatible. Personally, I would not have a problem with this, but that is my own opinion.
The wording in the alternate capstone might take care of that archetype, but the rule still remains in effect for the crossblooded archetype.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. Good points. I forgot to run it backwards. The rules of the capstone don't prevent it, but the rules of the archetype do. When all is said and done the character should play the same no matter what order the options are taken in. If ABC works, but CBA doesn't, then it all doesn't work.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.
The rules state that you cannot replace or alter the same class feature. The Alternate Capstones are archetypes that alter the capstone. The crossblooded also alters the capstone. Giving you a choice of two different capstones is altering the capstone. So, RAW they are not compatible. You GM can of course house rule that they are compatible. Personally, I would not have a problem with this, but that is my own opinion.
I have a problem with your interpretation. Namely the alternate capstone are not listed under archetypes for classes(at least on d20 ). And since there are common ones any character can take no matter their class, i dont think you could make a case they are archetypes. So the rules you bring up doesnt apply.
Also specific trump general, as i quoted before alternate capstones specifically say you cant take them if you have an archetype that replaces a capstone. No mention of alter.
Melkiador wrote: Mysterious Stranger wrote: A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. Good points. I forgot to run it backwards. The rules of the capstone don't prevent it, but the rules of the archetype do. When all is said and done the character should play the same no matter what order the options are taken in. If ABC works, but CBA doesn't, then it all doesn't work. What do you mean by this? Is this not a case of specific trumping general? The general rule being the alter or replace and the specific rule for alternate capstone only being replace?
The limitation is not in the capstone. It's in the archetype. The moment you take the capstone you have violated the rules that let you have the archetype, essentially making your character invalid.
Melkiador wrote: The limitation is not in the capstone. It's in the archetype. The moment you take the capstone you have violated the rules that let you have the archetype, essentially making your character invalid. Why? Could you explain it to me like i was five? I dont think i get it
Archetype “Stacking”
A character can take more than one archetype (sometimes called “stacking” archetypes) and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different. See FAQ at right for additional information.
This is rules you are pointing to right? Its specifically about archetype stacking. Alternate capstones are not class archetypes. Thus this rule does not apply
1) The rules for archetypes say that you can't take them with alternate class features that modify the same abilities.
2) Crossblooded modifies your Bloodline Powers
3) Alternate Capstone replaces the Bloodline Power at level 20.
4) You can't take that archetype if a bloodline power has been modified or replaced.
5) So, if you have the alternate capstone, you are not allowed to have the archetype.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.
The rules state that you cannot replace or alter the same class feature. The Alternate Capstones are archetypes that alter the capstone. The crossblooded also alters the capstone. Giving you a choice of two different capstones is altering the capstone. So, RAW they are not compatible. You GM can of course house rule that they are compatible. Personally, I would not have a problem with this, but that is my own opinion.
The wording in the alternate capstone might take care of that archetype, but the rule still remains in effect for the crossblooded archetype.
I believe i found a hole in your logic here upon closer inspection. The alternative capstone is not an class archetype. The rule you quote is called archetype stacking, which dont apply if the ability is not an archetype
Quote: none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. It doesn't say "as another archetype". It limits all types of alternate class features, which the alternate capstone qualifies as.
In theory if you had different alternate class feature that wasn't an archetype, then you could combine that with the alternate capstone. Assuming that that other alternate class feature didn't have its own limitations
Melkiador wrote: 1) The rules for archetypes say that you can't take them with alternate class features that modify the same abilities.
2) Crossblooded modifies your Bloodline Powers
3) Alternate Capstone replaces the Bloodline Power at level 20.
4) You can't take that archetype if a bloodline power has been modified or replaced.
5) So, if you have the alternate capstone, you are not allowed to have the archetype.
But the rule you are getting this from is listed as archetype stacking, alternate capstones are not listed as an class archetype. So this should apply here and the verdict should depend on the capstones rules
I think you got tripped up in the post editing, so make sure to read my post previous to this.
Melkiador wrote: Quote: none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. It doesn't say "as another archetype". It limits all types of alternate class features, which the alternate capstone qualifies as. Read the whole sentence:
character can take more than one archetype (sometimes called “stacking” archetypes) and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class
None of the alternate class features from archetypes can replace or alter the same thing but alternate capstones arent class archetypes by RAW. Because some of them arent restricted by class
I never said it was an archetype. What I said was that the rules for archetype stacking specifically apply to all "alternate class features"
Melkiador wrote: I never said it was an archetype. What I said was that the rules for archetype stacking specifically apply to all "alternate class features" Which is why i asked you to read the whole sentence not just the part you cropped out.
The whole sentence is this:
character can take more than one archetype (sometimes called “stacking” archetypes) and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class.
The alternate class features being refered to here are not all alternate class features in general but alternate class features from class archetypes. Which means this rules applies to class archetypes. alternate capstone are not class archetypes as i had said earlier so this rules doesnt apply and focus should be on what the capstone rules says.
Edit 1:its like 12am for me now so i am going to bed will reply to any comments in the morning
Bloodline Powers: At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers.
In addition to not being able to modify a class feature that has already been modified the crossblooded archetype specifies you have to choose the bloodline power from one of your bloodlines. It specificly says one of the two new bloodline powers. Capstones are bloodline powers. They could of course choose to gain a lesser bloodline power instead of a capstone, but they cannot choose any other capstone.
When you take an archetype, you have to take all modifications of the archetype. That means a crossblooded sorcerer has to choose his capstone from one of his bloodlines.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Bloodline Powers: At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers.
In addition to not being able to modify a class feature that has already been modified the crossblooded archetype specifies you have to choose the bloodline power from one of your bloodlines. It specificly says one of the two new bloodline powers. Capstones are bloodline powers. They could of course choose to gain a lesser bloodline power instead of a capstone, but they cannot choose any other capstone.
When you take an archetype, you have to take all modifications of the archetype. That means a crossblooded sorcerer has to choose his capstone from one of his bloodlines.
except the bloodlines you mention already have the option of the alt capstone making it an option for the crossblooded as well.
The arcane and dragon bloodlilne have the option to take the alt capstone instead of their bloodline capstone essentially making it that at level 20 they can gain ether their capstone(dragon or arcane for each his own) or capstone(alt) and the crossblooded get to pick from ether list.
The bloodline capstone is the general rule. generally the level 20 draconic bloodline get X. The alt capstone is a more specific rule that allow him to change it into Y. this is NOT AN ARCHTYPE RULE. it's a base class rule! (like how a druid can pick ether a domain or animal companion for example. or a wizard can pick ether a bond item or familiar. it was added later but applied to the base class).
now a crossblooded can pick from what one of his two bloodline get for level 20. the alt capstone widened up the option a level 20 draconic or arcane have so it also widen up the options for crossblooded.
you can also look at it from outside the archtype. at level 20 a crossblooded get to pick one capstone. but once he has the option of a capstone the alt capstone rule come up and say:
"Hey kid, you know that level 20 capstone you can just gain? you can trade it for one of these shiny options in MY list"
As long as the archtype didn't replace the capstone with an ability gained before it that is nto a capstone (like a level 1-19 abilities that replace 'x,y and the class's level 20 ability') the alt capstone rule doesn't care what level 20 capstone it replace.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Bloodline Powers: At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers.
In addition to not being able to modify a class feature that has already been modified the crossblooded archetype specifies you have to choose the bloodline power from one of your bloodlines. It specificly says one of the two new bloodline powers. Capstones are bloodline powers. They could of course choose to gain a lesser bloodline power instead of a capstone, but they cannot choose any other capstone.
When you take an archetype, you have to take all modifications of the archetype. That means a crossblooded sorcerer has to choose his capstone from one of his bloodlines.
Firstly you still either havent read or just ignored my point that i was bring up with your earlier rules quote. The rule that you cant select alternate class features that modify something your archetype has already changed is specifically referring to alternate class features from class archetypes. Alternate capstone is not a class archetype. So there is no rules conflict because the replacing of the bloodline power at level 20 has nothing to do with the stacking of class archetype. Do you understand this point?
And what you just commented does not conflict with the rules for alternate capstones that is the rule that should be in focus here. You select a capstone power from 1 of the 2 bloodlines and then following the alternate capstone rules you replace it with unique bloodline. It is fine in this instance because alternate capstones specifically say replace not replace or alter. Because you follow the alternate capstones rule, not the archetype stacking rule because alternate capstones are not Class archetypes.
Weeeknight wrote: Melkiador wrote: I never said it was an archetype. What I said was that the rules for archetype stacking specifically apply to all "alternate class features" Which is why i asked you to read the whole sentence not just the part you cropped out. It's not that the paragraph wasn't about archetype stacking. It's that the text in the paragraph is written in an open way to limit you from more than just interactions with other archetypes. This was future proofing and was clearly done on purpose.
For clarity, i am going to put down the passage again.
Archetype “Stacking”
A character can take more than one archetype (sometimes called “stacking” archetypes) and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature.
Alternate capstones:
When a character reaches 20th level, the following new abilities can be selected instead of the standard 20th level class ability which would normally be gained. In some cases, a capstone specifies what ability it replaces. A character can’t select an alternative capstone if she has previously traded away her class capstone via an archetype.(Edited in for clarity
Let me try to get your side of the argument. You think this rule implicitly restricts the stacking of any alternate class feature from any origin because, i assume, of the part that says "none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class features from the base class as another alternate class feature." Sure, had this been the only text in the paragraph or had this been a standalone rule on its own, i would have no argument.
BUT, there are one glaring reason why your interpretation is wrong based on RAW. That reason is based on how grammer work and the way it is written, the subject of the whole sentence is Class Archetypes. Thus, explicitly, the alternate class features stated in this paragraph are alternate class features granted by class archetypes and so the rule only prevents stacking of class archetypes. Which is, would you look at that, literally the title of the paragraph. So this rule does not prohibit the stacking of alternate class features in general but specifically if they come from archetypes.
Is this semantics? Probably. But given what i have seen about RAW discussions, what matters is what is written down explicitly, not the interpretation of it. And based on the language of the paragraph this rule has nothing to do alternate capstones and thus cannot prevent it from being applied to a crossblooded sorcerer since the alternate capstone specifies that the only restriction is abilities that replace the normal capstone, not abilities that replace or modify as the passage above says.
Actually can someone flag this post for an FAQ? I think i presented both arguments clearly enough here that it should be a good enough question to ask to a staff.(Though, maybe not since based on everyones replies here, the only issue is the RAW and this would generally be allowed in home games
Edit: Stranger in case you read the wrong post, the one replying to you is my reply after this
The crossblooded archetype is very specific that you can choose one of the two bloodline powers. It does not say you can choose any available bloodline power; it forces you to choose one or the other. You also have the option of choosing a lesser bloodline power instead of gaining a capstone. If the character chooses to gain a capstone the choice of which capstone is a binary choice.
I read your point on stacking archetypes but that is not the point. The archetype itself prevents you from taking the alternative capstone. When you take an archetype, you have to take all the abilities of the archetype. One of the abilities of the crossblooded archetype is the ability to choose between TWO capstones. Those choices are limited to the capstones of the bloodlines you chose. For example, if I took draconic and elemental my choice is between Power of Wyrms or Elemental Body. I cannot choose Unique Bloodline because that is not a bloodline power of either the draconic or elemental bloodline.
The word two means 2, not 3 or 4 or any other number.
This is my reply to you stranger(wont use the reply function cause its too long). And for ease of reading i will paste the crossblooded ability text down and the alternate capstone abiltily down.
Alternate capstone.
When a character reaches 20th level, the following new abilities can be selected instead of the standard 20th level class ability which would normally be gained. In some cases, a capstone specifies what ability it replaces. A character can’t select an alternative capstone if she has previously traded away her class capstone via an archetype.
Crossblooded bloodline ability.
At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers.
Ok so, yes i agree that based on the crossblooded bloodline ability, you must choose an ability at lvl 20 and it can either be one of the two bloodline's capstone abilities or a lower level ability. If you have no problem with the archetype stacking rule now and sololy focus on the crossblooded bloodline abiltiy, then the explanation is simple.
At lvl 20, you choose one of the two bloodline powers or a lower level power you haven't got. If you choose one of the two lvl 20 powers, the reason you can be allowed to swap them is because once you choose them they become a normal capstone ability that can then be replace by the alternate capstone. You cannot take it if you have traded away your capstone but in this case you haven't. Because you chose one of the two capstones to be your level 20 ability. Crossblooded doesnt give you a completely new capstone, it lets you choose from two existing normal capstones from the sorcerer bloodline list. Then after you have chosen, i dont see why you cant trade away that normal capstone for an alternate capstone.
The reason you can do this is because after your choice, you have a normal capstone that can be traded away. Of course if you chose a lower level bloodline power, you cannot trade it away as it is not a normal sorcerer's 20th level capstone ability.
Edit for clarity: an example is if you are a gold dragon and orc crossblooded and have the choice between either the orc or dragon capstone once you choose,say, the dragon capstone, you now have the dragon lvl 20 bloodline power as your capstone. Since this is a bloodline power that can be traded away for unique bloodline, you then lose it and gain unique bloodline. You cant do this if you choose the 15th lvl power for orc or dragon be ause that is not an ability that can be normally traded for alternate capstones.
I know i included this in the previous post but can i flag this for FAQ? And if i do will the staff read through the whole thread or will they require a single post summary? Does the flag even work now since 1e is pretty old?
Asking because we have each presented our arguments and an arbiter would be nice to make a judgement
Edit:Going to bed soon as i have to wake early tomorrow but just keep replying, will respond when awake
zza ni wrote: Mysterious Stranger wrote: Bloodline Powers: At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers.
In addition to not being able to modify a class feature that has already been modified the crossblooded archetype specifies you have to choose the bloodline power from one of your bloodlines. It specificly says one of the two new bloodline powers. Capstones are bloodline powers. They could of course choose to gain a lesser bloodline power instead of a capstone, but they cannot choose any other capstone.
When you take an archetype, you have to take all modifications of the archetype. That means a crossblooded sorcerer has to choose his capstone from one of his bloodlines.
except the bloodlines you mention already have the option of the alt capstone making it an option for the crossblooded as well.
The arcane and dragon bloodlilne have the option to take the alt capstone instead of their bloodline capstone essentially making it that at level 20 they can gain ether their capstone(dragon or arcane for each his own) or capstone(alt) and the crossblooded get to pick from ether list.
The bloodline capstone is the general rule. generally the level 20 draconic bloodline get X. The alt capstone is a more specific rule that allow him to change it into Y. this is NOT AN ARCHTYPE RULE. it's a base class rule! (like how a druid can pick ether a domain or animal companion for example. or a wizard can pick ether a bond item or familiar. it was added later but applied to the base class).
now a crossblooded can pick from what one of his two bloodline get for level 20. the alt capstone widened up the option a level 20 draconic or arcane have so it also widen up the options for crossblooded.
you can also look at it from outside the archtype. at level 20 a crossblooded get to pick one... Sorry i didnt reply to you earlier but our views are pretty much the same and my reasoning is similar too so not much to reply to
APG FAQ on Archetype stacking
Sorcerer class
so the archetype has to have a new capstone, not an alternate.
Sor Archetype - Crossblooded: choose 2 bloodlines, does not mention capstones or alternates directly, check bloodlines.
Sor Archetype - Wildblooded: choose bloodline and mutated sub-bloodline (derivative of the chosen bloodline). Use bloodline ability/power unless mutated replaces it. Does not mention capstone or alternates directly, check bloodlines.
Many bloodlines {as I didn't check more than 3} replace the capstone (as it does not say "alternate"). So with an archetype this can trade away the basic capstone (which Sor Class seems lacking) and put the base class alternates out of scope.
To access the base class alternate capstones the bloodline(s) in an archetype must not have a capstone.
it is all very round about based on your bloodline... take a level of Oracle and don't worry about it... starting with the assumption of a base class alternate capstone for an archetype just leads to faulty logic.
>>> Paizo will not produce any new FAQs for PF1, development ended some time ago <<<
it is all very round about based on your bloodline... take a level of Oracle and don't worry about it... starting with the assumption of a base class alternate capstone for an archetype just leads to faulty logic.
Just happened to click on this but why take a level in oracle?
Whether my interpretation was "right" or not, I am 99% sure the design team would agree with no stacking. Because they almost always agree with the more limiting interpretation, even if it is the less logical interpretation. For examples, look at the hands of effort two weapon fighting FAQ or the klar FAQ. They went with the most stretched interpretation of the text to arrive with the most limited interpretation possible.
This also reminds me of when the loophole was found in elves having orc hornbow proficiency and the editor for that book used an interpretation of the text so broken as to make all of the text in question pointless.
Basically if you find something that looks like a loophole and there is some tenuous interpretation of the text that makes it not work, then that limiting interpretation of the text is the expected official answer.
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