How to make a witch who takes mestama's fiendish obedience chaotic neutral?

[Weeeknight]

I want to make a chaotic neutral witch who was spurned by society after her gnomish cheated and basically turned the community against her. Problem is i dont want to play an evil character, i would like to play her as a more free and individualistic person who is only worshipping mestama for her power.

My question is how do i balance out the evilness of having an evil patron and doing the fiendish obedidence? Personally i would say mestama's obedience need not be that evil, since you can just use illusions to make people cry or be pissed off which dont have to hurt them. But any other suggestion s would be good

[zza ni]

/rant on:
Personally I think some of the rituals of obedience should be set right. There are some that sooner or later will force the character to fail performing them (looking at you 'sacrifice an intelligent creature' etc. can hardly have everyone who perform this do it DAILY without some major effect on the general population and or believers).

In your case, what if you converted everyone around to be a believer (by the sword?) what then, you automatically fail to perform the ceremony?

at the very least I would add the bit that some of them have that goes: '...if you can't, then madidate on x for y time while doing z..'
-
Also it helps if you link or paste the thing you ask about.

/rant off.

in your case, being cruel doesn't have to be being overly evil. eating a very fragrant greasy meat-on-a-stick in front a hungry bagger might get you there just fine and you can hardy be called evil for having a snack, no? (well except for them 'meat is murder' bunch i guess).
As long as you don't break any laws your indifferent cruelty can at most be frowned upon. look for the cases where not caring is enough. You don't even need to laugh at their faces to get it to work.

Also there is nothing in the ritual that state you must use an illusion for it. it just give you a bonus against them once you finish your daily ritual. don't mix the reward with the request.

As Mestama Is an evil (ce) demon lord I think he\she\it would be more pleased if you do the cruel ritual with an evil act. but as his believers can also range from the CN alignment, he shouldn't be overly opposed to some light cruelty in the name of randomness.

[Ju-Mo.]

zza ni wrote:

/rant on:

Personally I think some of the rituals of obedience should be set right. There are some that sooner or later will force the character to fail performing them (looking at you 'sacrifice an intelligent creature' etc. can hardly have everyone who perform this do it DAILY without some major effect on the general population and or believers).

In your case, what if you converted everyone around to be a believer (by the sword?) what then, you automatically fail to perform the ceremony?

at the very least I would add the bit that some of them have that goes: '...if you can't, then madidate on x for y time while doing z..'
-
Also it helps if you link or paste the thing you ask about.

/rant off.

in your case, being cruel doesn't have to be being overly evil. eating a very fragrant greasy meat-on-a-stick in front a hungry bagger might get you there just fine and you can hardy be called evil for having a snack, no? (well except for them 'meat is murder' bunch i guess).
As long as you don't break any laws your indifferent cruelty can at most be frowned upon. look for the cases where not caring is enough. You don't even need to laugh at their faces to get it to work.

That are "just" 365 kills a year.

It sounds lot and if a lot of People/NPC use this its certainly will effect population.
But if only a hero/PC or significant NPC takes it?
My players (good NPC) killed more intelligent creatures in a short campaign than that and that would never effect the population in general.

Granted they killed them as a group and sometimes a dozen in a day (bandits/ trolls/ giants etc) and no one each day.
But keeping them prisoners and than kill them off one by one each day, would be possible.
If its only this one PC/NPC who has this feat.

I think cruel is evil, doesnt matter if it hurt someone physical or mentally. And even if the outcome is postive for the other person, its my intention that counts for my aligment.
At least in my interpretation.

If I push someone on the street and he gets run over by a car I´m evil.
If I push someone on the street, so that he gets run over by a car, but the car stops and he is unhurt, is an evil act, although nothing bad happend.
If I push someone on the street so that he gets run over by a car, but the car stops and its a reunion with his childhood love and they live happily ever after, its an evil act even if I helpd him find his true love.

On the contrary:
I push him onto to street, because a knife is flying straight towards his shoulder and I want to save his life, while getting myself hit with the knife is a good act.
If he then gets run over by a car the outcome is worse (knife in shoulder = injury vs car runnning him over = death), but its still a good act because the intention is good. I wanted to save him from the injury and I didnt see the car.

If I eat in front of a starving person, because I´m hungry i would classify it as a neutral act.
Good would be sharing the food, neutral would be just eating.
However looking him into his eyes and eating it just so that I can be cruel and to see him sufer.. thats an evil act.

Even if you just use an Illusion to let them suffer (showing them how their familiy is dying in the most painful ways or just that his wife breaks up with him) is an evil act.
You want to let someone suffer, thats cruel, thats evil.

Ofc non such minor evil act will change your aligment on the spot.
But over time, if you enjoy people suffering and if you are cruel just because you like it, you are an evil person.

[Pizza Lord]

Weeeknight wrote:

My question is how do i balance out the evilness of having an evil patron and doing the fiendish obedidence? Personally i would say mestama's obedience need not be that evil, since you can just use illusions to make people cry or be pissed off which dont have to hurt them. But any other suggestion s would be good

The obedience must be cruel, it does not have to be evil. It does have to move the target to anger or tears, which is a whole other level of cruelty. You can't just step on their hands, you have to do it until they cry or get pissed. You can't just call a little girl 'adopted', you have to taunt or tease her until she cries or throws a rock at you, so it probably will lead to evil at some point.

The only real way to balance your own alignment is to do things that keep your alignment Chaotic Neutral (not just doing good things to counter the bad, since that would be good). As long as your chaotic and neutral activities (and their scope) outweigh the evil parts you should stay CN (again, unless it's a really evil thing or sustained period of evil things).

You don't have to do the obedience every day, only when you want the boons (obviously don't neglect a patron, still pay them service and such, speak well of them, or whatever to stay on their good side). You'll need to do the obedience when you want them again for a day.

[Weeeknight]

The reason i suggested using an illusion is because it would be cruel but fairly harmless. Since i would have to observe someone for an hour, it should be easy enough to find out sufficient info to fulfill the cry or become angry part of the deal. For example instead of physically stomping on the guys hand, i could create a major image of say a mugger mugging their parents in an alleyway or a mirage in the desert if their thirsty. That would cause the required reaction but also not really harm them since i could just dismiss the image after they get angry or upset.

The reason i said i might help them after the fact is because i am not playing an a@$%@$$ so i feel like after using someone to gain some, i would want to pay them back a bit. Like a transaction you know, "you help me fulfill my quota for today i give you some coin or a minor magic favour" that short of thing. I feel this reflects a more neutral alignment because of the transactional nature. Not done out of malice or out of kindness. Would this make me more neutral? Any suggestions of what else i can do to be neutral in these situations

[Mysterious Stranger]

You can hurt someone without physically harming them. Causing someone mental and emotional harm is also evil. Emotional abuse can be as bad if not worse than physical abuse. You say you don’t want to play an evil character but plan on performing an evil act daily.

[Weeeknight]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

You can hurt someone without physically harming them. Causing someone mental and emotional harm is also evil. Emotional abuse can be as bad if not worse than physical abuse. You say you don’t want to play an evil character but plan on performing an evil act daily.

I plan on commiting an evil act only because it is requires by the obedience. Otherwise i play the character fairly neutrally or even goodly since most my characters are not downright evil.

And i dont think you understand what i just suggested. I feel like there are degrees of evilness. Wouldnt you say creating an illusion that lasts a minute or less is as evil as say breaking someones arm or actually going after their vulnerabilities with insults? The reason i go with illusions is because its less impactful overall. Like when you encounter a very bad jumpscare. Will you be scared, afraid or angry? Yes for like a very short period. Meanwhile breaking someones arm or even just bruising someone will take days to heal. Or using psychological tactics will be far more impactful than a simple scary or provocative image.

Basically i am making my deeds more akin to a jumpscare filled movie rather than a psychological horror movie. Sure some may be reduced to tears or anger for the moment but after that not much impact. Which is not the emotional abuse you are suggesting

[Northern Spotted Owl]

I’m not convinced that you can be cruel day in, day out, without in fact being evil. But I’m not your DM.

[Mysterious Stranger]

You are trying to justify evil acts by saying other people are doing much worse things. That does not cut it. In the right circumstances causing physical harm can actually be a good act. For example, if someone arm is damaged beyond repair and the arm has become so infected that it is going to kill them. Cutting off that persons arm would be a good act even though it causes them physical pain.

You have to look at the reason behind the act to determine if it is good or evil. You already stated that the only reason you are doing this is to gain personal power (the benefit of the fiendish obedience). That makes it an evil act.

Causing emotional trauma can be just as evil as physically harming someone. The parent that emotionally abuses their kids and treats them like crap is still harming their kids even if they don’t leave a mark. In some ways this type of trauma is worse.

[Weeeknight]

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

I’m not convinced that you can be cruel day in, day out, without in fact being evil. But I’m not your DM.

Fair enough, truthfully the only reason i am concerned or asking is because we cant figure out if doing this one hour of action will affect my alignment if i just act as normal for the other 15ish hours and what an npc who casts detect good or detect evil will see. My GM feels my character otherwise is more good than neutral without the obedience and deity(though maybe its because i roleplay them as worshipping them for the added power not because of fanatical worship) so was just wondering if i needed to do anything specific to shift the alignment to the existing norm.

I suppose i will just do the obedience and otherwise act as normal for a few sessions and see how that turns out

[Azothath]

Mestama in PFWiki CE
Mestama on AoN with obediences.

First off, Patrons are nebulous. They are purposefully not defined. So your Witch has an Obedience and chose to venerate Mestama at the time.
Perform an act of cruelty upon a nonbeliever of Mestama after spending an hour observing the nonbeliever— preferably from a vantage unknown by the victim. This act must, at the very least, incite the victim to tears or anger. Gain a +4 profane bonus on saves against illusion. IMO at least it's a petty Evil.
The character is literally doing minor acts to serve an Evil Deity (there's nothing redeeming in her domains/subdomains).

it's a simple (storytelling) game (with strong martial challenges) at it's core and if a PC venerates an evil deity and does Evil acts, they're gonna go Evil. Saying you'll balance it with Good acts is just more Evil. People try to mince it or rationalize RAW in order to skirt the rules (chaotic). As it sounds self serving maybe NE.
The PC only need to attempt the Obedience if they want the minor bonus for the day. It's not like the PC *has to do it*.

What your PC needs is a way out of the Cycle of Revenge. You also need a physical/emotional event or climax that will bring about that change. Retraining the feat into Varisian Tattoo (Illusion) should help as Obedience to an Evil deity has nowhere good to go, or pick Sivanah, Lantern King...

Only your Home GM can adjudicate ethical and moral play within their group environment and it takes time with petty evils...
If your GM flips your alignment after the first Act, then you know what you're dealing with... (doesn't sound like you are in that boat).
It doesn't affect your spellcasting and Witches don't have an Aura or alignment restrictions, so why Fix what ain't Broke. If you are in PFS it is a more sensitive issue.

P.S. that's not how Detect Evil:D1 works... you gotta have an Evil Aura or be from an Evil plane (with Evil in your type/subtype).

[I grok do u]

I would ask why Mestama, specifically? What boons are you really wanting?

Demon Lords are usually pretty keen on corrupting people to evil. So, yeah, you could maybe do some not-totally-evil cruel tricks a few times, but your PC is on the path to evil.
One of the ways Pathfinder defines the Good-Evil axis is that "good implies altruism." Lack of compassion and selfishness therefore lie in evil direction. Being cruel for the sake of power, I would have a very hard time accepting the obedience as CN compatible.

However, since revenge does come up under CN and N deities - if your obedience was part of a convincing 'justified' revenge, and was done in a way to "cruelly" show them the the error of their ways. Forcing a slave owner into shackles and selling him to his former slaves probably qualifies, and while Good it is not, CN it may be. Meh? It's a stretch. But again, long run, your PC is heading for the Abyss.

For revenge, there are CN Calistria and N The Pale Horse option deities.
For "witchy" flavor, you can use a wide variety of deities N Grandmother Spider isn't specifically a witch, but meets the flavor.