IMHO, the bigger problem isn't the stats of the enemies vs the HP/AC of the party, it is that the tight corridors and tiny rooms make it so that encounters overvalue having frontline tank characters. The enemies are immediately at in-your-face range as soon as you walk into the room.
Having a non-standard party composition works just fine in general. Combat can be a tactical battle of positioning as the players try to waste as many actions as possible from the enemies by spreading out and firing at range or opportunistically pouncing on an enemy that gets over-aggressive and gets drawn away from allies.
None of those tactics work in a combat that takes place in a room that is 15 feet square in total.
So maybe instead of changing the numbers on the enemies, double or triple the dimensions of the indoor dungeon maps. Having each square be 10 feet or 15 feet would make things a lot more free and suitable for a party of skirmishers.
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We played the beginner box and started AV with lvl 2, this eased the group into the difficulty somewhat. They earn less XP due to the level, so it should even out over time.
I do not think you need a tank, but you need tactical play.
In another AV group i am a player, and one of the others is really shy about stepping into the frontline with his swashbuckler, sometimes retreating during a fight or firing 1 dmg hand crossbow shots - it really plays like hard mode.
I have often read about GMs changing the dungeon dimensions, for me it was just too much work - the appeal of a ready-made campaign in foundry was that it was ready-made.
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One important thing that isn't immediately obvious to new players, is that PF2 is set up so no single character, even a really beefy one, can tank for the whole party. But two or three of them can.
So if the rogue, investigator and druid all mix it up in melee, they're not so bad off. If the investigator tries to hang back and do ranged attacks, the druid doesn't shapechange because he wants to spellcast, and the rogue has nobody to flank with.. that's not so good.
Anyway, if you want to make things easier, there's a bunch of relatively low effort ways:
- weaken enemies (I'm a big fan of removing some HP, because it doesn't involve keeping track of very many changed stats)
- remove extra enemies (say, change 4 to 3 enemies or 3 to 2)
- leave clear clues about the rooms with the nasty monsters that they shouldn't rush to confront. AV more than other campaigns, has some monsters that you can leave in their room and come back for later when you're stronger. You basically don't want them to walk into any level +3 monster without warning. AV also has a fair amount of talkative monsters that could give the players some of this information.
Or a bit more radical: give the PCs an extra level, and keep them one level ahead throughout the campaign. (If you use XP, give out XP as if they were the normal level.)
Abomination Vaults is wonderfully setup that a party does not have to fight everything. If they choose to fight everything and know they are not robust then that is on them. Death is sometimes the best lesson provider. It's also the factor that puts the suspense into the game. It's why we use dice to add a random factor into the story. Not every 'hero' of the tale survives. Just like most medals of honor are posthumous.
Run sample battles so they learn tactics and the value of using them at a slower pace with meta-commentary that you wouldn't want to make a habit of for normal play. Then they'll feel free to pause the action for questions because that's the point, and it won't pause the story.
Or run the Beginners Box as that's crafted exactly to learn such things.
That +1 level bump will represent you hamstringing the enemies with far less effort and no sense of playing easy mode for the level bump. They've earned it. (Even though it will be easy mode...)
Overall, I think parties do need a 10 h.p./level PC w/ full plate and/or Shield Block. In the early days when GMs complained about TPKs on the forums, without fail those parties had Barbarians and/or Rangers (or worse) tanking w/ otherwise decent tactics, or as mentioned above, thought 1 PC could do all the tanking.
So yeah I agree with the OP that the party's too squishy, maybe to the point of needing a GMNPC shield build hireling. BUT, if built with synergy and an eye toward their gaps they could pull it off, i.e. the Rogue's a Ruffian taking Sentinel.
And don't forget their strengths. They'll absolutely dominate with skills. Though that does remind me they'll flail vs. oozes, incorporeal, and such so will need to patch that gap too!
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I think that there are two baseline assumptions that are wrong. First, most PCs aren't any more or less "suqishy" than any other except for unarmored casters. All other PCs should have pretty much the same AC.
A level 5 rogue has an AC of 20. 10+4 dex+1 leather+2 trained+5 level. A level 5 fighter has an AC of 21. 10+6 plate+2 trained+5 level. Anyone can raise a shield to get +2.
Second, there is no such thing as "tanking" in P2. Any PC that stands next to a foe and just swings 3 times will go down. Period. Moving in, hitting and moving away, or taking some other action to reduce damage or make your enemy easier to hit is an absolute must. Creatures hit too hard otherwise.
TLDR; Don't worry about your party make up. tactics and dice luck will make a much larger impact on the party than the PC class choices.
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Yeah, I'm running this in foundry too. If I can figure out a way to blow up the dimensions of the rooms, maybe it can work...
I don't know if it works well with the premade module, but in general you can try editing the scene settings and halving the grid size.
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Second, there is no such thing as "tanking" in P2. Any PC that stands next to a foe and just swings 3 times will go down. Period. Moving in, hitting and moving away, or taking some other action to reduce damage or make your enemy easier to hit is an absolute must. Creatures hit too hard otherwise.
I don't know, shield Champions get very tanky very quickly. Low level ones can't hold up against focused fire very long, but a raised shield with full plate, a self heal, and the ability to negate damage on others is the the closest thing PF2 has to a tank class.
Higher level ones can absolutely tank because they become really, really hard to take out.
TLDR; Don't worry about your party make up. tactics and dice luck will make a much larger impact on the party than the PC class choices.
I'd say both of these things matter. There are definitely stronger and weaker parties.
My group is a monk, investigator, druid, wizard. We’ve struggled at first. You might need to watch things on the fly as they unfold.
I ran AV for my group through Foundry.
Basically ran the party as 1 level higher than recommended (which helped as we got used to the new system).
Also increased room sizes, the 5' hallways and tight spaces just weren't fun for my group. In Foundry you can adjust the grid size by configuring the scene and either doubling or halving the grid pixels (from memory I adjusted it to 50 pixels per square from 100). There were a couple of maps I had to move the background image on (or maybe the grid itself), but it was pretty easy to do.
The simplest answer to an inexperienced party (which is more concerning than their classes) is to give them an extra level above the curve. I did it for one group and it went a long way in AV.
Abomination Vaults is wonderfully setup that a party does not have to fight everything. If they choose to fight everything and know they are not robust then that is on them.
Well. Yes and no. AV is really meant to use XP instead of milestones, and skipping encounters just because they seem scary hurts there. I'd instead say that choosing to fight things without exercising tactical caution is on them. Don't play casters like barbarians, always have an exit route, don't be afraid to come back with a spell load out specific to handling this foe, and so on.
Alternatively, if your players aren't interested in being that tactical, an extra level works.
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Not sure how your group plays or what type of witch you are, but there are some encounters in Abom Vaults that are very tough for their level. That group could have a rough time.
If the investigator, rogue, and untamed druid are your primary melee, that will test you greatly. Though the AC is the same for most classes, the AC progression is not the same and crits can happen quite often for the squishy characters if they are taking all the hits.
Untamed order druid in shaped form also often has a weak AC past and can't use a shield.
Not sure if the druid or investigator are using a shield, but having at least one shield using martial PC is very, very helpful.
It's going to come down to play it and see how it goes. If you wipe, then someone should bring in a tankier character to pivot around.
who is healing too? No healing and no tank? The untamed order druid is going to change from, not be able to cast, and fight in melee? No healing and no tank is going to be rough.
There's also more to squishing than armor. The differences between 6 HP per level, 8 HP per level, and 10 HP per level really start to add up the later in the game you go. And casters tend to have worse progressions as well.
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I can't agree more that running the Beginner Box before AV is a great idea. Alternatively, "Troubles in Otari". Or even both, if you like (Troubles is set up such that you could run parts of it as "interludes" in between AV sessions).
If you're thinking about adjusting the monsters to give your players a "leg up", please read the Monster Core section on Adjusting Creatures (pp 6 ff).
I think the point upthread about "not going all murderhobo right from the start" isn't about skipping encounters - it's about the fact that some encounters can be completed without having to kill stuff. Admittedly, there's at least one encounter on the first level of AV that is designed to suggest to the players that now is not the time to try to beat it. :-)
