Twins and teamwork feats

[Heather 540]

I've got a pair of old characters (though they've never been played) that are twins. One is a Phantom Thief Unchained Rogue and the other is a Dashing Thief Swashbuckler. I'm looking at their builds now and realizing that they have a bit too many teamwork feats.

I want to try to rebuild them so I can play them separately in normal games without crippling them. But also make it so they would boost each other if played together.

They are both humans and I want to give them both Improved Steal, but obviously not focusing on that so much they can't do anything else.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[Tottemas]

what level are they meant to be played at and what teamwork feats have you taken right now?

for a lv 6 dashing thief swashbuckler I'd do something like this and then branch out into teamwork feats

1 Combat Reflexes, Dirty Fighting
2
3 Dervish Dance
4 Weapon Trick: One-handed
5 Agile Maneuvers
6

Weapon Trick (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Weapon%20Trick) gives you both Stylish Ripose and Free Hand Maneuver. You could take imp steal if you want, or just flank to not provoke AoO due to Dirty Fighting. or parry the AoO.

I dunno what you're trying to do with the phantom thief. are you ranged? melee? using wands? you get no SA so I can't tell.

[Dragonchess Player]

Some possible teamwork feats that a rogue/swashbuckler pair of twins might like: Feint Partner, Got Your Back, Outflank (as well as the Improved version), and Precise Strike. Several of these (Precise Strike, Outflank, and Improved Outflank, for instance) are good choices for many characters that attack in melee with a partner.

[Heather 540]

I picked out feats to level 9 for both of them.

The Swash:
1: Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvers, and Dirty Fighting
3: Dervish Dance
4: Improved Steal (Combat Swipe talent)
5: Improved Disarm, Improved Critical
7: Outflank
8: Disarm Partner (Combat Trick talent)
9: Paired Opportunists

The Rogue: (I used Combat Trick for every talent.)
1: Weapon Finesse, Dirty Fighting, Agile Maneuvers
2: Improved Steal
3: Improved Disarm
4: Combat Reflexes
5: Broken Wing Gambit
6: Dodge
7: Iron Will
8: Disarm Partner
9: Paired Opportunists

The Ring of Tactical Precision was planned to share Outflank and BWG.

The basic plan was stealing and disarming while also getting AoOs. But since playing 2 characters in the same game isn't really something that's ever going to happen, I need to pare down the teamwork feats. Or have a way to share them that's not the ring.

[Trokarr]

I think I see a problem with your rogue build. The Combat Trick talent does not state that it can be taken multiple times so I think (I may be wrong) that by RAW it may only be taken once. This is true for both the chained and unchained versions of the rogue class as well as Ninja. Your GM may allow this of course but you should run it by them first before playing a character with multiple Combat Trick talents.

[Heather 540]

It's the archetype. A Phantom Thief can take Combat Trick, Minor Magic, and Major Magic multiple times.

https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Rogue%20Phantom%20Thief

[Trokarr]

Hmm…..interesting. I was not aware of that.

[Heather 540]

Yeah, it can also take Skill Focus as a talent multiple times and a vigilante social talent. Though those can only be taken once each and you can't take Social Grace.

[Tottemas]

is there a thematic reason for phantom thief? cutpurse (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Rogue%20Cutpurse) seems like it would fit better and gives you a supercharged "steal maneuver" at lv 3. instead of targeting their CMD and needing agile maneuvers you use a DC 20 check to steal their item and can do so unnoticed.

so you save two feats and become way way wayyyy better at stealing in combat.

[Heather 540]

Yes. The characters are twin nobles whose family was murdered and their lands, titles, and fortunes were stolen from then when they were children. As adults, they plan to steal it all back. Phantom Thief is a more refined image than Cutpurse. And being able to take Combat Trick multiple times is handy.

[Heather 540]

Think I should dip Cavalier on these guys? So they can each share a teamwork feat? Are there any archetypes that trade away the mount but keep Tactician?

[I grok do u]

Daring champion is a swashy cavalier.

Castellan and Constable also keep tactician without mount.

[Heather 540]

I think I'll go with Constable. Daring fits better thematically, but overlaps mechanically. And Improved Unarmed Strike is useful for a backup weapon.

[Joynt Jezebel]

Heather 540- If we were starting in the same campaign I would offer to play one of the twins so you could play them together. It is a good idea and a pity you haven't got to play them.

But it does not surprise me. Players understandably normally want to play their own character ideas.

[Heather 540]

Yeah. That's why I want to rebuild them. I feel like I need to do so anyway even if I could play them together.

[Heather 540]

Ok, I think I'm gonna drop the disarming stuff. They don't need it. I'm going to lean into crit fishing with Tristan (he's the Swashbuckler) That'll be pretty easy with a scimitar and basically getting Improved Critical at level 5.

I can delay the Cavalier level on him until I can get Outflank. I'm not sure if I should give Christie (the Rogue) the Cavalier level at one or wait until 5. I want to give her Pared Opportunists to share.

[glass]

A friend and I had a similar idea for a pair of characters for PFS: Worthing and Jake Staughton ("of the Amanantar Staugtons don't you know").

The conceit was that my character was the perfect noble scion of his family, despite being adopted (and a wayang). Whereas my friend's character was a natural born son, but much more at home in the wilds and with little patience for courtly manners. Mechanically, they were a Cavalier and a Hunter respectively.

Sadly, we did not get to play them together very often.