With thanks to Isis, I think I've finally figured out what's bothering my about the alchemist remaster.
With ~6 encounter power and ~8 dailies, it feels like there's this expected pattern of having about 3 rounds of quick bomb + spend 2 actions to use an elixir (or move and throw a second bomb). You can basically get through an infinite number of those encounters a day, and still have the Quick Vials and 8 dailies as back ups for when things go long or encounters stack or whatever.
This is fine, and it's nice to give alchemists a nice expected plan. The problem is it's too narrow. There are plenty of alchemists out there, who's players saw the class and built something that doesn't fit into the paradigm.
Personally I have 2 in PFS, a Chirurgeon who hands out buckets of items at the beginning of the scenario (some infused, some real which I generally don't tell the other players that some aren't infused so they won't be shy about actually using them) and then barely has enough bombs to get through the day.
I think this'll technically be an improvement for them. The ability to chuck quick healing vials or quick bomb vials when I want to contribute without actually using any resources. Much more encounter level flexibility in making niche healing/condition removal items.
But I'm sad to lose all the cool items and index cards I made to hand out to people pre combat. I like prepared spellcasting. Alchemists getting to prep 2x/3x items or get 1 on the fly was a mechanic I really liked.
My other one is a lvl 6 "assassin" They are a sneaky toxicologist/archer dedication. Their combat routine is to hide and fire lots of poisoned arrows via double shot. Now instead of say spending 5/11 daily reagents making 15 poisons and just poisoning all their arrows ahead of time, they get 8 dailies + 6 encounter. Applying poison in combat is too action intensive to be effective, and they can use 2 encounter powers to prep 2 extra poisoned arrows meaning they can have 2 per encounter + 8 total and still have some other encounter powers. So it's a little less poison but much worse if the encounters are uneven. 2 long encounters is much harder to deal with etc. Also maybe I want to use 1 of those regenerating VVs on Quicksilver which will be nice to always start with and not have to try and guess when an encounter will start. Of course a couple more levels and they'll get access to triple shot, which I'm seriously reconsidering at this point.
So it's probably an improvement for alchemists in general, and certainty makes them much simpler to be basically effective, but with the way PFS treats the remaster they cut off the ability of alchemists doing weirder things and I like doing weird things.
So it's probably an improvement for alchemists in general, and certainty makes them much simpler to be basically effective, but with the way PFS treats the remaster they cut off the ability of alchemists doing weirder things and I like doing weird things.
There's definitely a PFS issue, much more obvious with the Oracle, that I hope the PFS team will solve.
The ranged Toxicologist is no more a thing with the remaster. In my opinion, it was not much of a thing pre remaster but now it becomes very hard to play for long adventuring days and it forces you to take feats that increase your dailies, feats that are both expensive and giving very small increases.
As for the Bomber, I feel this is now a total playstyle. You either are a Bomber and the (near only) thing you do is bombing or you are not a Bomber and you don't use bombs. I also have a Chirurgeon using bombs as their main weapon and converting them to the remaster either asks me to forget about Elixirs or about Bombs.
From my current analysis of the remaster Alchemist, there are only 2 "optimized" builds: The Bomber and the non-Bomber. Bomber Alchemist is very easy to build but Bombs are so costly (in feats and VVs) that you nearly only do that. The non-Bomber on the other hand has to do a bit of everyhting as the other Research Fields won't use all of your resources (VVs, but also dailies and feats). There are no more differences between a Toxicologist, a Mutagenist and a Chirurgeon, they have nearly the same builds and playstyles.
Actually, if you are playing a non-Bomber Alchemist, choosing your Research Field is rather easy. Just answer these questions in order:
1. Does anyone in the party use slashing/piercing weapons? If no, cross off Toxicologist.
2. Am I playing a campaign with a lot of Poison Immune enemies (for example Blood Lords)? If yes, go Toxicologist.
3. Do I expect to use Collar of the Shifting Spider or somehow switch Mutagens in the middle of a fight? If no, then Mutagenist is not an interesting choice.
4. Will I roll Medicine for something else than Treat Wounds/Battle Medicine/Treat Poison? If no, then Chirurgeon is not an interesting choice.
Answer: If after answering these questions you still have multiple Research Field to choose from, roll a dice as they are all equivalent for your character.
I disagree with your round count. You can only have one additive bomb a round. I'd assume your intended to use a versatile vile or advanced alchemy item for a mutagen pre combat, 1 versatile vial as a bomb, and quick vials after that. That gives you 5-6 rounds before getting stuck on quick vials only.
Your not using your "constant" Versatile Vials to get there. But they are free buffs, so it's better to use 2-3 of them for Mutagens/Poisons. You end up with 4 Versatile Vials for Bombs, which is in general enough for a single fight. You can also grab an extra Versatile Vial with the Familiar ability, but it's rather expensive.
Does that familiar versatile vial replenish along with the others?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does that familiar versatile vial replenish along with the others?
Extra Vial: Your familiar accretes alchemical liquids in its body. Once per day, you can Interact when your familiar is adjacent to you to gain a versatile vial. You must have the versatile vials ability to select this ability.
Given the specific wording, I would say the answer is no.
|
If you could possibly content yourself with a single poison ambush arrow per round, you could check out Hunter’s Aim from a ranger dedication.
But yeah, that second character concept looks to have your intended functionality removed beyond a couple of rounds per day.
Perhaps if they created a feat that allowed Toxicologist to retain poisoned ammunition on an hourly cycle with their versatile vials?…
Out of curiosity, does the Lab Assistant familiar ability still exist in Player Core 2?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Out of curiosity, does the Lab Assistant familiar ability still exist in Player Core 2?
Oh f$~% me.
No, Lab Assistant is neither in PC2 nor PC1.
For f!+&s sake. Lab Assistant was the last remaining lifeline I was going to try to use to mitigate the action cost of Quick Alchemy that's been forced upon me post-master.
Out of curiosity, does the Lab Assistant familiar ability still exist in Player Core 2?Oh f!&@ me.
No, Lab Assistant is neither in PC2 nor PC1.
For f#&@s sake. Lab Assistant was the last remaining lifeline I was going to try to use to mitigate the action cost of Quick Alchemy that's been forced upon me post-master.
Nuts.
Because Manual Dexterity + Lab Assistant meant my Mutagenist Alch could order his familiar to make a Mutagen, feed it to him, and then still have two actions left in the first round to do things.
This is an interesting turn in the discussion. The whole "what kind of familiar action economy hack do I need" thing always turned me off wanting to play an alchemist in production.
And with forced Quick Alchemy, Quick Bomber being buffed, and still no other Alchemist action helper (yet alch Investigator got one, ffs), such action economy hacks are more important than they were previously. Task failed successfully, wonderful remaster.
I'll say again, elixir healing / buffing is not viable as a 2A thing.
Chiurgeons cannot afford to spend cast a spell equivalent action costs to administer wimpy touch-range elixirs. The combat impact is so small, Chiurgeons are better off attacking and throwing cantrips than spending 2A on such small heals/items.
If it's not possible to get some of those elixirs for 1A, then they simply will not get made, and other actions will be done instead.
Right now, it really looks like using Combine Elixirs to get 2 elixirs for 2A is going to be the baseline. Don't even know what (non bomb) Q-Alch can be justified before L6 without Combine, tbh.
Do you have an example of 2-3 that you'd continually use on a bomber? might have your favorite mutagen up (bestial, quicksilver, etc.). But are there buffs from an elixir or other that are pivotal to need up before combat that will last the 10 mins? I'm far more inclined to stick a daily into a spider shifting collar for my mutagen and keep my versatile vials flexible to respond to the combat.
Lozenges are a good pre-battle effect to occupy some VVs with now. Due to the recharging nature of VVs, that mechanic heavily pushes Alchemists to use their top recharging 2 VVs on 10min effects, like elixirs or lozenges.
and with lozenges *not* being mutagens, that expands their appeal a bit more due to compatibility.
For mutagens, my new favorite is Stone Body. Resistance to damage is not something that PC can get otherwise, and it makes for a great "always ready" buff to carry in a collar. If combat looks too mobile, I don't have to pop it. But in those "mobbed by zombies/etc" fights, the effect of the mutagen makes a huge difference.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=484
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While it's technically not in PC1 or PC2, the way Lab Assistant is worded from the CRB still would allow you to use it with current Alchemist no problem, I think, as it's still called "Quick Alchemy".
Of course, that probably won't fly with PFS, but in home games Lab Assistant works perfectly fine still.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Because Manual Dexterity + Lab Assistant meant my Mutagenist Alch could order his familiar to make a Mutagen, feed it to him, and then still have two actions left in the first round to do things.
Familiars can't activate items, so this is not allowed. There's a new Familiar Ability Item Delivery that allows you to do that but it's not compatible with Lab Assistant.
Lab Assistant has been a dead ability since they clarified Familiars can't feed anything.
Do you have an example of 2-3 that you'd continually use on a bomber?
Poison and Mutagens for your teammates. Between an Additive in case the combat lasts 5 rounds and a Poison/Mutagen every combat, the later beats the former hands down.
Alchemist is still a support class.
Lab Assistant could combine with Q-Alch duration extensions. Either the Feat or the item would allow the familiar to brew something on turn 1, then hand off turn 2.
That would enable the Alchemist to trade the familiar investment and a turn delay in exchange for a 1A use of Q-Alch items via Independent.
And since this does not occupy the alch themselves, they can do their own Q-Alch turn 1 in the meanwhile, such as a 1A Skunk.
If the GM has a number to pull from for a default case attack value, the familiar could also throw the item to a desired ally without actions wasted on moving to the Alch's hands. Familiar's have 0 reach, but there's the even less likely case where the ally who can reach plucks the item from the familiar's hand for their own 2A use.
==========================
==========================
I also expect most GMs will allow the Item Delivery ability to enable familiars to feed potions/elixirs in a general capacity. The ability is very awkward in that it breaks verisimilitude if it enables the familiar to feed, but only as a part of that very specific sequence.
The enabled 1A Command: [create] + [feed me] would entail a 3 ability combo via Lab Assistant + M. Dex + Item Delivery, and IMO that ruling would actually be in a good place from a balance/investment standpoint.
Familiars have 0 reach, so the ability to use a familiar to drink Q-Alch stuff would be limited to the Alchemist only, yet the benefit of reducing the action cost may be genuinely worth it for many Alch players.