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It might seem out there at first but hear me out. From Kineticist, we have the idea that classes with powers that are more "physical" than spellcasting but nonetheless mystical in nature use Constitution for their abilities. I don't understand Starfinder lore enough to tell whether a Solarian's powers are supposed to be considered magical (I.e. subject to an anti-magic field the same way a Kineticist is, please clarify this somewhere Paizo) but, and this is just my opinion, wielding the very sun as your sword feels like a pretty mystical ability. So the change would be consistent with past PF classes with similar flavor, for one.
And for another, this change would help a lot with how MAD the Solarian is. Think about it. If it focuses on Strength as its attack/damage stat, you have to make a choice between Dex for AC and Con for survivability, with Dex also determining (among other things) their accuracy with Solar Flare and potentially guns. If Con was the main stat, and both the to-hit and damage of their attacks used it like they should, they'd be far less split between Strength for heavier armor and Dex for lighter. This gives much needed build freedom to the class.
Finally, this frees up Soldier to be a Strength class. Let's be honest here, a majority of Soldier's early class progression is features making up for the fact that it's not supposed to take Strength. Walking Armory is a non-feature. Fearsome Bulwark equally so, and that one actually hurts Soldier builds thanks to being delayed. And then Close Quarters wants Strength anyways! Simply giving it Strength, maybe giving it 12 HP, and ideally giving it a feature to use its heavy weapons as Brutal would fix almost all of the class' awkwardness.
I would like this, yeah. Con as the Solarian's key score, closely followed by Strength and then Wisdom, I feel ought to be the way to go, which is why I also think they also ought to have heavy armor proficiency (they're a solar knight, after all). I don't think the class is all there yet, but I do think they could benefit significantly from a few targeted changes:
And that would be mostly it. I do think the class is a bit too front-loaded, and I would perhaps move some of the solar manifestations to feats and perhaps even downgrade their starting Perception proficiency, but I do quite like the class's core attunement mechanic and their theme.
I would like this, yeah. Con as the Solarian's key score, closely followed by Strength and then Wisdom, I feel ought to be the way to go, which is why I also think they also ought to have heavy armor proficiency (they're a solar knight, after all). I don't think the class is all there yet, but I do think they could benefit significantly from a few targeted changes:
Solar Shot using Con for both the attack and damage roll would make the ability actually work properly.
Con as a key attribute would allow the Solarian to have expert-to-legendary weapon proficiency from levels 1 to 13, rather than trained-to-legendary from levels 1 to 19, without treading on the toes of Pathfinder's Fighter.
Solar Weapon I feel could be both streamlined and made much clearer if you could simply choose an existing melee weapon from the list, and perhaps gained a damage die bump if you chose a simple weapon. This would offer a far greater combination of traits, still guarantee balance, and expand much more nicely with future expansions if they add more weapons and traits.
All of the Solarian's abilities need to be explicitly listed as magical, in the same way as Pathfinder's kineticist, otherwise you get silly stuff like a photon Corona automatically getting snuffed out by magical darkness. We absolutely do not need references to "supernatural darkness" like in Singularity, because "supernatural" anything belongs to 1e, not 2e.
Photon-attuned abilities need the light trait. Currently, it's strangely very difficult for a photon-attuned Solarian to interact in any way with mechanics that normally react to light.
Losing basically all of your class's abilities when you become unattuned is gross. I think it would be better if more abilities could be used even when unattuned, with the cycle trait letting you Attune if you're unattuned, and simply didn't give their significant attunement benefits when doing so. Solar Shot ought to follow this too, and should therefore have some baseline effect that your...
I'm actually envisioning a Solarian with a dex secondary more than strength. High enough AC with medium armor and high accuracy with guns which helps cover its glaring range weakness.
I also don't hate Solarian's current armor selection. As a slightly bulkier pseudo-monk/kineticist class it makes sense for them to stop at medium by default. They need to get into melee somehow, and the innate -5 speed from heavy armor would heavily impede that (pun intended.) And even then they can take a level 1 class feat to opt into heavy at full proficiency anyways so the "solar knight" of it all doesn't get lost either (though it's unclear to me whether they get armor spec for heavy.)
I am in agreement that they should just get to pick an existing weapon for their solar attack though. Get the brutal simplicity benefit if it's simple and maybe disallow advanced or make it a feat tax like heavy armor. It would give advanced melee weapons more of a purpose I'll tell you that much.
All the magic trait stuff checks out, I'm confused why they didn't do that to begin with.
I feel like unattunement is comparable to when a Kineticist loses their aura. And I don't hear anybody complaining about that class needing to pay an action tax for its super moves. I don't think the problem is that Solarian loses most of their benefits from it, it's that disharmony moves don't feel as powerful as Overflow, the benefits for being attuned are more underwhelming than aura benefits, and reattuning is more of a punishment the re-channeling. I feel like if those more core issues are addressed, unattunement will go over smoother.
And the extra skill I also agree with. Nothing uses it, it's really pointless. Though I more with things did use it instead of them being dropped.
The idea that the class is frontloaded implies it does well early. I'm really not sure that's true. It seems underwhelming at every level, both low and high! I hope these changes and generally more tuning for its abilities can help bring out the best in the class because it's one of the ones I'm the most excited to play.
I'm actually envisioning a Solarian with a dex secondary more than strength. High enough AC with medium armor and high accuracy with guns which helps cover its glaring range weakness.
I also don't hate Solarian's current armor selection. As a slightly bulkier pseudo-monk/kineticist class it makes sense for them to stop at medium by default. They need to get into melee somehow, and the innate -5 speed from heavy armor would heavily impede that (pun intended.) And even then they can take a level 1 class feat to opt into heavy at full proficiency anyways so the "solar knight" of it all doesn't get lost either (though it's unclear to me whether they get armor spec for heavy.)
The Solarian's need to get into melee and the gap they'd need to close is, in my opinion, why they ought to have a gapcloser by default. A graviton Solarian has this with Black Hole, but a photon Solarian doesn't really have anything, and I think some kind of radiant charge that would let you barrel forth at the speed of light (and with a burst of damage) would do the trick nicely. I do think Dex Solarians ought to be a thing (and Con as a key attribute would make this easier), and I'd actually quite like the Solarian to be able to opt into ranged combat if they want (perhaps let them forge ranged solar weapons too as a feat), but I also think zero-Dex Solarians should also exist and be viable. If the Solarian's going to get into melee, I'd rather take the pressure off of them needing to build Dex, because with Con as a key attribute they're going to need Strength to max out their attack and damage rolls, which at sub-heavy armor would have them start with below-par AC.
I feel like unattunement is comparable to when a Kineticist loses their aura. And I don't hear anybody complaining about that class needing to pay an action tax for its super moves.
The crucial difference is that when the Kineticist uses Channel Elements, they can use a 1-action Elemental Blast or stance impulse as part of that same action. They still get to do something with that action. By contrast, Attune does nothing by itself except make you un-lose your solar weapon, so every time you have to pay an action tax just to even start doing anything at all, given that unattuning yourself would also disarm you. I can agree that the disharmony effects could be a bit meatier, but I also don't think the Solarian needs an action tax like that either.
The idea that the class is frontloaded implies it does well early. I'm really not sure that's true. It seems underwhelming at every level, both low and high! I hope these changes and generally more tuning for its abilities can help bring out the best in the class because it's one of the ones I'm the most excited to play.
The doc itself refers to the Solarian as front-loaded on page 109:
The solarian frontloads a lot of abilities, with different states of attunement and a lot of manifestations to balance around, meaning there’s a lot to keep track of. Is there too much going on with the solarian and would it be better cutting back some of the manifestations—well, we’re hoping you can help us with that in playtesting! The question is, does the solarian have too much going on at 1st-level, and if so, where could we streamline it? Or does the solarian work as a more “advanced class” in the core slate of classes?
I agree that the class is currently underwhelming, at least by SF2e standards where lots of other classes are really overtuned, but I think the larger concern is that the class right now has a lot of complexity and not all that much coherence. I don't think the Solarian should be stripped of all their tools, because I don't want them to be a one-trick pony like every other martial class in the playtest, but I do think there's room to both simplify them to start with and also make them shine brighter at what they're supposed to be good at.
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I don't think any of the classes are Overtuned honestly. There is no reason for them to feel that way, if anything some of the old classes from Pathfinder 2e just feel undertuned. Any none remastered class outside of Thaumaturge but this is neither here no there.
Kineticist needs 3 stats, so did Kineticist. Paizo fixed Kineticist and should do the exact same thing with Solarian, 1 stat, 1 class DC, 1 class dc -10 = Attack stat, simple and fixes the issue in a simple 2 step solution
1) No more weapon proficiency upgrades past Expert and give Legendary to the Class DC.
2) New Class Feature that mentions using Class DC -10 for Solar Flare & Solar Weapon.
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I'm going to chime in here with some counter arguments to the Soldier Str/Solarian Con swap proposal.
Melee: Solarian is the melee class in Starfinder 2e. It doesn't have a ranged sub-class/fighting style. It is the only class that defaults to using melee weapons. Changing Solar Weapon and Solar Flare to CON based abilities make backup melee weapons (i.e. not the solar weapon) with, say, alternative damage types, much less effective. I feel like Con to hit and damage for all melee weapons is harder to justify than just Solar Weapon and Solar Flare.
Soldier has a single fighting style dedicated to melee weapons, and still wants dexterity in that build for when it shoots, and it is going to want to shoot given what opposition is likely to be.
Athletics: As a 1-handed melee class, Solarians are in the best position to use Athletics for things like Trip, Reposition, etc. They want to be adjacent to enemies and will typically have a free hand. The class was clearly designed with that free hand in mind for those kinds of maneuvers.
Soldiers are still ranged strikers and the majority of Soldiers will be using 2-handed ranged weapons, and thus not want to be in melee, nor have a free hand to make Athletics checks. Lastly, Constitution helps defend against some Athletics maneuvers (like Grappling), unlike Strength which is only used offensively for Athletics.
Bulk: For the majority of Soldiers, Strength is literally only used for Bulk capacity. Only a Close Quarters Soldier really cares, but that's a single fighting style, and the KAS should not be based on a fighting style which is going against the rest of the mold of the class. Strength might fulfill a particular character conception, but I'd argue Constitution is just as good as representing the big guy.
Mechanically, Bulk issues have alternative solutions, such as Hefty Hauler. I'd much rather spend a skill feat for +2 Bulk, then be -2 to hit with Primary Target or -2 hit points per level and -2 to Fort Saves. Action Hero and Bombard simply get more from Str+1/Dex +3/Con+4/Int +0/Wis +0/Cha +1 than Str+4/Dex+3/Con+1/Int+0/Cha +1 assuming the Con related stuff was switched to Str.
Now I agree the class as presented needs work, but I don't think a Str->Con key ability swap is addressing those current issues. Mechanically, you can make any Stat do anything if the developers want, but if the Solarian is going to be the only default melee class in SF2, then it is the only class that Strength makes sense for as a key ability score, so it can use any melee weapon effectively.
If we restrict the class to only using Solar Flare/Solar Weapon effectively, then you start to need damage bypass options like the Kineticist, and it starts to look like a 10 hp per level kineticist-like caster instead of a martial class.
I don't really think the bespoke melee class in the 'ranged meta' game should function like the Kineticist in that way at all - it should absolutely be more like what it currently is - with scaling up toLegendary Proficiency in their Solar Weapon.
Besides, 'X PF2E Class in Space' is something Paizo has said they don't want to do, so I don't see it happening.
If we restrict the class to only using Solar Flare/Solar Weapon effectively, then you start to need damage bypass options like the Kineticist, and it starts to look like a 10 hp per level kineticist-like caster instead of a martial class.
I really don't think this is the case, given how Solarians by default have a bunch of damage types to choose from, with physical damage types rarely hitting immunities at all in 2e. I also don't think the other arguments really hold water either -- the Solarian isn't terribly concerned with Bulk when they don't have to carry a weapon by default, they already have inbuilt class features that let them apply crowd control to enemies at close range (that's the central purpose of graviton abilities), and their ability to reach legendary proficiency with their solar weapon to me suggests that their key ability shouldn't be the one they use to Strike with it, otherwise the class just ends up being a Pathfinder Fighter with an entire other class's worth of abilities added on top.
For the record, I'm personally opposed to the Solarian using Constitution for solar weapon Strikes, and I'd even go as far as to say that I'd support taking out Solar Shot from their class features, provided they get good access to a gapcloser by default. I don't think the Solarian needs Fighter-level accuracy in any case for their attacks, and while attacking at a +1 next to other martials at level 1 could be pretty spicy, attacking at a +2 really doesn't leave much room for anything else in the class's core features, which would be a shame given that they're meant to have access to special abilities on top of their martial chassis. I do also think there are many valid reasons to make the Soldier use Strength instead of Con (unlike Solarians, they're genuinely concerned about Bulk limits, hence their compensatory class features), but that's probably something for a Soldier thread.
Well the most important thing the Solarian needs to do is become less MAD through any way possible. You can argue you an remove the solar Flare but you need to make Solar Rush the default class feature or you can change it to being Class DC which is another way to do it. Maybe remove Solar Ramparts and just give Kineticist Heavy armor, maybe make it Str or Dex class and let them add Finesse to their Solar Weapon at the cost of D8 to D6 damage? There are many weapons to solve it, it is just Paizo will choose one way which will change part of the class but no the core of it.
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Well the most important thing the Solarian needs to do is become less MAD through any way possible. You can argue you an remove the solar Flare but you need to make Solar Rush the default class feature or you can change it to being Class DC which is another way to do it. Maybe remove Solar Ramparts and just give Kineticist Heavy armor, maybe make it Str or Dex class and let them add Finesse to their Solar Weapon at the cost of D8 to D6 damage? There are many weapons to solve it, it is just Paizo will choose one way which will change part of the class but no the core of it.
I'd want to avoid making Solar Shot a save effect, because that means you could just spam it three times in one turn, but I agree that the Solarian ought to have a gapcloser in their core features for sure, and should be less MAD too. I'd probably go about it in the following way:
With this, the class would always be able to depend on just three ability scores by default, namely Con, Strength or Dex depending on whether you're going for a melee or ranged build, and Wisdom for Perception and saves. You wouldn't be quite so overloaded at level 1, but instead you'd have a lot of raw power, plus the tools to do very well in melee thanks to your strong attacks and gapcloser.
I'm going to chime in here with some counter arguments to the Soldier Str/Solarian Con swap proposal.
Melee: Solarian is the melee class in Starfinder 2e. It doesn't have a ranged sub-class/fighting style. It is the only class that defaults to using melee weapons. Changing Solar Weapon and Solar Flare to CON based abilities make backup melee weapons (i.e. not the solar weapon) with, say, alternative damage types, much less effective. I feel like Con to hit and damage for all melee weapons is harder to justify than just Solar Weapon and Solar Flare.
Soldier has a single fighting style dedicated to melee weapons, and still wants dexterity in that build for when it shoots, and it is going to want to shoot given what opposition is likely to be.
For one, Paizo alluded to a potential ranged playstyle for Solarian in the preview. This really hasn't materialized. For another, Solarian is already greatly incentivised to use its solar weapon exclusively since almost all of its features and feats specify the solar weapon. A gun as a sidearm is more realistic for a Solarian as printed, since it can still deal extra elemental damage for resistance bypass while also working around the class' range issues. And finally, if Soldier isn't meant to use melee weapons, that option should not have been printed in the first place. Pathfinder 2e has a lot of decent ranged support for predominantly melee classes, Starfinder 2e should have the reverse as well, and it currently truly doesn't. And while Striker is bad mostly from a printing error, Soldier is certainly worse in mechanics thanks to how little support they get and how MAD they are.
Athletics: As a 1-handed melee class, Solarians are in the best position to use Athletics for things like Trip, Reposition, etc. They want to be adjacent to enemies and will typically have a free hand. The class was clearly designed with that free hand in mind for those kinds of maneuvers.
Soldiers are still ranged strikers and the majority of Soldiers will be using 2-handed ranged weapons, and thus not want to be in melee, nor have a free hand to make Athletics checks. Lastly, Constitution helps defend against some Athletics maneuvers (like Grappling), unlike Strength which is only used offensively for Athletics.
I admit Solarians are good with Athletics actions, but so are Soldiers. Not all of them, but they do have feat support for shoving and knocking prone, which they do with Athletics. Except wait a minute, Soldiers use con for Athletics starting at third level (its own can of worms.) Truly, out of any class in these games, Soldier does by far the most of just making up what attributes they use for what.
Bulk: For the majority of Soldiers, Strength is literally only used for Bulk capacity. Only a Close Quarters Soldier really cares, but that's a single fighting style, and the KAS should not be based on a fighting style which is going against the rest of the mold of the class. Strength might fulfill a particular character conception, but I'd argue Constitution is just as good as representing the big guy.
Mechanically, Bulk issues have alternative solutions, such as Hefty Hauler. I'd much rather spend a skill feat for +2 Bulk, then be -2 to hit with Primary Target or -2 hit points per level and -2 to Fort Saves. Action Hero and Bombard simply get more from Str+1/Dex +3/Con+4/Int +0/Wis +0/Cha +1 than Str+4/Dex+3/Con+1/Int+0/Cha +1 assuming the Con related stuff was switched to Str.
I'd contest the statement that Soldiers only use strength for Encumberance. Well, as printed they do, but without their Walking Armory feature (which really needs a lot of work to make it actually interesting) they would also rely on it for heavy armor, an investiture a lot soldiers will probably want. Again, something soldiers are expected to be doing that relies on strength that gets handwaved away as being suddenly con dependent because Paizo said so. They also get to use con for Intimidation (why are soldiers trained in this by default) past third level. Funnily enough there is an Intimidation skill feat that gives you a (quite small, admittedly) bonus depending on your strength score. I'm seeing a pattern.
Now I agree the class as presented needs work, but I don't think a Str->Con key ability swap is addressing those current issues. Mechanically, you can make any Stat do anything if the developers want, but if the Solarian is going to be the only default melee class in SF2, then it is the only class that Strength makes sense for as a key ability score, so it can use any melee weapon effectively.
If we restrict the class to only using Solar Flare/Solar Weapon effectively, then you start to need damage bypass options like the Kineticist, and it starts to look like a 10 hp per level kineticist-like caster instead of a martial class.
Again, this isn't a theoretical issue. Solarian is right now expected to near-exclusively use their solar weapon and hope the rest of the party has got you if that fails. Meanwhile Soldier demonstrably uses strength-based (and in one case charisma-based) options with a different attribute that, while I admit is thematically appropriate, mechanically Paizo pulled straight out of their [Null Space Chamber]
I'm seeing two classes that are each having issues with their key stats as outlined, and making the observation that swapping their key stats and tuning them a little bit would allow for greater consistency and build freedom for both thanks to less attribute dependence issues. I'm absolutely not ruling out that both classes can be made to work properly with their current key stats, however. No matter how much it may sound like it. I don't particularly care which funny number I add to my roll, as long as there's an internal consistency to the system, and the thing I'm playing isn't weak or underwhelming.
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While I don't think I'd mind soldier and solarian swapping their key stats, there is something else to consider.
These classes are intended to be the first classes new players to the game see. I don't just mean folks swapping from PF2E to Starfinder, but also people new to either of these games, or TTRPGs in general. Strength is meant to be the melee-centric stat. If you make a melee class, then swap it away from the stat that is intended to be the melee stat, it's going to confuse some people coming into the game for the first time and muddy an already somewhat daunting new player experience.
Frankly this is by far the best counter to my initial argument. Solarian is a core class, it's good to instill the idea that melee is strength in new players. It's why I'm hopeful that they can sort out strength Solarian and con Soldier instead of having to swap their key stats to fundamentally make them make sense.
I can see benefits to the stat swap, but it's possible a con solarion might look too much like a limited, reskinned kineticist. Now, im all for a martial mirror to the caster leaning kineticist, but Paizo may not want that much overlap. Just a thought
Solar Weapon works just fine in the current iteration. I was contributing as I should be in the few combats my group ran.
When I said Solar Flare/Solar Shot it be better if the Solarian was made into a High DC class based on Str or Con but using the Kineticist feature of their attacks being their Class DC -10. That would make the MADness of Solarian into a SAD class which can attack using Ranged because Class DC -10 or Melee because Class DC -10 or using Saving throw abilities at Class DC. Not use any other elements from the Kineticist class just the fact they use Class DC at -10 as their attack stat.
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I really don't think this is the case, given how Solarians by default have a bunch of damage types to choose from, with physical damage types rarely hitting immunities at all in 2e.
The way I play martials in Pathfinder 1e, Starfinder 1e, and Pathfinder 2e, is to always have as much of a variety of damage types as reasonably possible. Certainly being able to carry a spare Shock Truncheon, Bone Scepter, and Neural Lash adds 4 different damage types (Electric,Cold,Void,Mental) plus nonlethal which can interact with rules in different ways that a CON to Solar Weapon/Solar Flare can't. For only 35 credits and 2-3 Bulk, there's no reason not to have a suite of weapons like that by 2nd level on Solarian, and potentially even at 1st level.
I think of it this way: When you're a character that doesn't have amazing magical powers and you make your living fighting on the front lines, survival is dependent on preparation.
I also don't think the other arguments really hold water either -- the Solarian isn't terribly concerned with Bulk when they don't have to carry a weapon by default, they already have inbuilt class features that let them apply crowd control to enemies at close range (that's the central purpose of graviton abilities), and their ability to reach legendary proficiency with their solar weapon to me suggests that their key ability shouldn't be the one they use to Strike with it, otherwise the class just ends up being a Pathfinder Fighter with an entire other class's worth of abilities added on top.
For levels 1-18, they have exactly the same Solar Weapon proficiency as a Barbarian, a Champion, an Investigator, a Magus, a Monk, a Ranger, a Rogue, or a Swashbuckler in their preferred weapons. At 19th a Solarian finally hit Legendary in Solar Weapon proficiency, but a Monk gets to replace their first attack roll with a 10 if its worse and a Barbarian gets to ignore the first 10 points of physical damage resistance. Its a 19th level perk, not normal proficiency advancement.
Fighters are Expert at 1st, Master at 5th, and Legendary at 13th in their preferred weapons. I personally wouldn't call a Barbarian a Fighter with a whole class of special abilities on top, and Solarians will presumably end up similar. Basic martial chassis (i.e. not Fighter accuracy) with thematic abilities on top.
Personally, I agree totally Solarian need better mobility options. On top of that, those mobility options need to be compatible with different movement modes. If enemies are expected to have flight in the early levels, then Solarian options need to be compatible with flight. Even a Pathfinder Fighter's Sudden Charge is compatible with flight, while none of the Solarian movement options so far are.
I also believe they need better damage mitigation abilities than they have access to now. Currently, general feats and equipment anyone can use are stronger than class feats spent on Solarian defense.
Lastly, I also wish Solar Flare/Shot was an option and not a fixed class ability. I don't think this entire Str to Con key ability discussion wouldn't have come up if the class didn't have a dexterity based ability that looks like it should be some kind of Kineticist blast.
Like, make Solar Weapon, Solar Shot, or Solar Shield your one manifestion pick at 1st level. Just absorb Nimbus into the shield since they're literally covering the same design space. Now you can have an optional ranged build like how the Soldier and Operative both have melee options. Then make each individual ability stronger than they are now, to account for the lack of flexibility. I'd much rather Solarians have a single ability that I want to use, than a watered down option that looks inferior to simply picking up a weapon or shield.
And finally simply make the feats use Strike with any weapon, instead of restricting it to Solar Weapon.
Take Shattering Impact for example, which is quite bad right now, since you need to attune after using it (making it functionally a 3 action attack). Which doesn't even work with Ascended Stability, since you still need to attune to re-manifest your weapon, even if you cancel the disharmony effect with the reaction. Call it Surging Impact, make it work with any weapon, and keep the disharmony tag if absolutely necessary, but don't make it break the weapon, Solar or not.
Let the Solarian be a martial like a Barbarian or a Champion or a Fighter, I don't want to restrict it to the two class ways to attack and thats it.
For one, Paizo alluded to a potential ranged playstyle for Solarian in the preview. This really hasn't materialized. For another, Solarian is already greatly incentivised to use its solar weapon exclusively since almost all of its features and feats specify the solar weapon.
I personally would much prefer the Solarian feats be unconnected to Solar Weapon specifically, rather than doubling down on it. Solarian Reactive Strike just needs a melee weapon, so why not make Eclipse Strike just need a melee weapon? That feels like a cleaner design change than having to do all the Con to other stuff the Soldier needs to do, but on the Solarian instead. Similarly, ranged Solarian should be a sub-class, and the easiest way to do that I feel is make a selection for manifestation at 1st.
A gun as a sidearm is more realistic for a Solarian as printed, since it can still deal extra elemental damage for resistance bypass while also working around the class' range issues.
Agreed. However, I'd much rather see Solar Shot be strength to hit and damage in that case, rather than Con to hit and damage. Strength makes as much sense as Con in that case to me (Martial arts inspired Fire- and Air-bending comes to mind). I'm arguing against a KAS change, not improvements to the fundamental abilities of the Solarian, which I totally agree are needed.
Again, this isn't a theoretical issue. Solarian is right now expected to near-exclusively use their solar weapon and hope the rest of the party has got you if that fails.
Which I prefer would be fixed by not making all the feats be tied to the Solar Weapon or Solar Shot.
I'm seeing two classes that are each having issues with their key stats as outlined, and making the observation that swapping their key stats and tuning them a little bit would allow for greater consistency and build freedom for both thanks to less attribute dependence issues.
My issue is I see making the Solarian be Con based would restrict build freedom, not expand it. With change of KAS to Con, if I build a Solarian, I would be restricted to using Solar Weapon and Solar Shot as my only effective options. None of the melee weapons in the setting will be used by the character, since it won't have the strength to use them effectively. Where as a basic martial chassis based on strength it has the freedom to use any melee weapon that might provide an advantage in the moment.
I want to use the Solarian like one would use a melee Barbarian, a melee Champion, a melee Ranger, and so on. I want the class feats providing the mobility, defensive capabilities, and crowd control one needs to survive in a "ranged meta", ideally with a flowing gameplay which empowers what the class does. Right now, doing some simple testing of certain abilities at mid-level feels like a few of the class abilities are more of a straight jacket and restricting what you can do, especially when compared to other martial classes in Pathfinder 2e or the Solarian in 1st edition.
Frankly this is by far the best counter to my initial argument. Solarian is a core class, it's good to instill the idea that melee is strength in new players. It's why I'm hopeful that they can sort out strength Solarian and con Soldier instead of having to swap their key stats to fundamentally make them make sense.While I don't think I'd mind soldier and solarian swapping their key stats, there is something else to consider.
These classes are intended to be the first classes new players to the game see. I don't just mean folks swapping from PF2E to Starfinder, but also people new to either of these games, or TTRPGs in general. Strength is meant to be the melee-centric stat. If you make a melee class, then swap it away from the stat that is intended to be the melee stat, it's going to confuse some people coming into the game for the first time and muddy an already somewhat daunting new player experience.
That's also part of my thinking for why Soldier shouldn't be Con. Soldier is the basic core martial class. It shouldn't be the testbed for experimental features that switch up what basic rules like what ability scores do. Maybe none of the core classes should be Con?
I've already come across at least one creature in Pathfinder playtest materials with a physical resistance of 5 in level 2 enounter. And another in a level 4 encounter with regeneration 12 stopped by mental damage.
Great, that sounds like a perfect opportunity to showcase the non-physical damage from your Solarian abilities, including the bonus fire damage on your solar weapon! Notice how you're talking about a soft counter of resistance, which will by the way affect every other martial class in the game much more severely due to their ranged focus (in other words, lower damage) and lack of inherent non-physical damage in their kit. This isn't the kind of thing you desperately need to work around like a caster dealing with immunity, nor is it something you have to deal with alone. The game offers plenty of items and upgrades that let you deal different damage types even as a martial, so there's nothing really to fix here.
For levels 1-18, they have exactly the same Solar Weapon proficiency as a Barbarian, a Champion, an Investigator, a Magus, a Monk, a Ranger, a Rogue, or a Swashbuckler in their preferred weapons. At 19th a Solarian finally hit Legendary in Solar Weapon proficiency, but a Monk gets to replace their first attack roll with a 10 if its worse and a Barbarian gets to ignore the first 10 points of physical damage resistance. Its a 19th level perk, not normal proficiency advancement.
Legendary weapon proficiency blows all of those other abilities out of the water, again with the Fighter as a prime example. One could also argue that the Champion ends up with approximately the same armor proficiency as everyone else up until level 16, but that would be disingenuous. All this says is that this proficiency bump is inappropriate both due to its inclusion and the level at which it's placed.
Personally, I agree totally Solarian need better mobility options. On top of that, those mobility options need to be compatible with different movement modes. If enemies are expected to have flight in the early levels, then Solarian options need to be compatible with flight. Even a Pathfinder Fighter's Sudden Charge is compatible with flight, while none of the Solarian movement options so far are.
I also believe they need better damage mitigation abilities than they have access to now. Currently, general feats and equipment anyone can use are stronger than class feats spent on Solarian defense.
Lastly, I also wish Solar Flare/Shot was an option and not a fixed class ability. I don't think this entire Str to Con key ability discussion wouldn't have come up if the class didn't have a dexterity based ability that looks like it should be some kind of Kineticist blast.
All of this I fully agree with. I think the Solarian needs to have the mobility, crowd control, or both to be able to get into melee range of opponents that will generally be standing a significant distance away. I also agree that in a game where flight is common at level 1, the Solarian needs to also be equipped to deal with flying enemies. Right now, a 1st-level Solarian can get hard-countered by just any random Barathu with a gun floating 35 feet above ground.
I also very much agree that most of the Solarian's current base manifestations ought to just be feats -- I personally do think their solar weapon can be their central feature along with their subclass's ability, but I also think they ought to be able to take feats to forge ranged solar weapons and manifest solar armor. I do think their solar weapon should be the main weapon they use, and if the Solarian needs more versatility than already being able to forge a different weapon every 10 minutes, that too can be easily addressed by being able to manifest multiple solar weapons (which already exists with Twin Weapons as a 1st-level feat), or reforge your weapon in the middle of combat.
Let the Solarian be a martial like a Barbarian or a Champion or a Fighter, I don't want to restrict it to the two class ways to attack and thats it.
I personally think the Solarian's solar weapon is an opportunity to make the class more flexible, not less. Martial classes in 2e are actually quite limited by the cost of weapon runes: you'll certainly want to have a backup weapon, but because making it as strong as your main weapon is expensive, you'll either have to significantly invest in that one other item to the detriment of others, or have it not be as good. By contrast, the Solarian gets to shape their weapon into something different every encounter, while keeping the benefit of a fully-upgraded weapon each time. Doubling down on that I think would both make the class more flexible and highlight their unique powers. Others have claimed a Con-based Solarian would feel like a reskinned Kineticist, but the fact that the Solarian fights with a weapon at melee range is already enough to distinguish the two classes entirely.
Great, that sounds like a perfect opportunity to showcase the non-physical damage from your Solarian abilities, including the bonus fire damage on your solar weapon! Notice how you're talking about a soft counter of resistance, which will by the way affect every other martial class in the game much more severely due to their ranged focus (in other words, lower damage) and lack of inherent non-physical damage in their kit.
Assuming we are talking about the Starfinder setting, a martial character's damage type is purely determined by the weapon they are using. Every class has access to non-physical damage in their kit simply by buying the right weapon. This includes both ranged and melee. 30 credits buys you a Laser Pistol. 60 credits buys you an Acid Dart Rifle, which everyone including casters are going to be proficient in.
I would expect every martial in the game to be packing at least 2 weapons of their preferred type with 2 different damage types. Keeping a backup weapon one full tier lower (i.e. +1 to hit, 2 damage dice vs +2 to hit, 3 damage dice), is relatively cheap given the exponential costs of weapon upgrades. Plus if you know ahead of time, upgrades can be swapped in 10 to 20 minutes.
All I'm saying is I'd like the Solarian to continue to have that option like everyone else in the setting. Switching Solar Weapon and Solar Shot to Con means those backup melee options become slightly less efficient (+3 Str at best vs +4 Con), or potentially non-viable depending on build choices.
Legendary weapon proficiency blows all of those other abilities out of the water, again with the Fighter as a prime example. One could also argue that the Champion ends up with approximately the same armor proficiency as everyone else up until level 16, but that would be disingenuous. All this says is that this proficiency bump is inappropriate both due to its inclusion and the level at which it's placed.
Thats a fair take. I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other, given 19th and 20th level abilities have zero impact on the vast majority of play. I wouldn't mind seeing it changed, given other martials have no issues not having legendary weapon proficiency at 19-20. I just don't want level 19 and 20 abilities driving basic balance decisions for the entire class, including levels 1-18.
Assuming we are talking about the Starfinder setting, a martial character's damage type is purely determined by the weapon they are using.
This isn't quite true, and even the bit of it that is true proves my point. Specifically:
So it's not just that martial classes in 2e have the flexibility of dealing with resistances quite easily, the Solarian in particular is uniquely flexible due to the additional damage types they deal through their abilities and their solar weapon reforging. If any class needs help dealing with resistances or immunities, it is not the Solarian.
hats a fair take. I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other, given 19th and 20th level abilities have zero impact on the vast majority of play. I wouldn't mind seeing it changed, given other martials have no issues not having legendary weapon proficiency at 19-20. I just don't want level 19 and 20 abilities driving basic balance decisions for the entire class, including levels 1-18.
I can empathize with this, yeah. I think expert-to-legendary proficiency at Fighter level bumps on the Solarian could actually work, provided the class were Con-based, because the benefit of a higher proficiency rank would be mitigated in part, then fully by Striking using a non-key attribute. There's arguably bigger priorities to address first, though, chiefly the fact that the Solarian has no recourse against flying enemies at early levels, which will be appearing in Starfinder. Giving the class itself a fly Speed at 1st level could solve that issue.
Can't we just allow the Solarian to use Strength for Thrown Weapons to hit and make the Solar flare something you throw at the enemy ? Solar Flare already adds Full Strength to damage. Also allow Solar Flare to profit of of handwraps and we are gucci. This would negate the inherent need for dex and give the solar flare proper range increments.
Solar Flare having a range increment, rather than a fixed range, and using Strength for the attack roll would certainly be a major improvement, for sure. Personally, though, I still feel that doesn't fully address the problem, because all it does is turn the Solarian into a ranged class like everyone else, just a worse one. Starfinder's a game where every other class gets to do their thing regardless of whether the enemy's somewhere they can Stride to (because they don't want to Stride to that enemy), so the Solarian being left out of this whenever a ranged enemy is, say, flying or shooting from higher up in a building, which will happen often, I think is what itself ought to be addressed from the start.
I'm in the camp for fixing solar shot and increasing it's range.
I will point out something that I thought of recently, which is that the flavor of con solarian does make sense if you think about it. A higher constitution means a higher "solar mass" for them, which obviously means stronger powers. Not a great argument, it's not meant to be, just a fun thing I thought of.
In the end I just think it needs the same mechanic as Kineticist. Using it's Class DC for attacking would really solve this entire problem of the class. STR or CON doesn't make a huge difference outside of higher defenses vs higher trip chance I guess?