Operative Striker seems underwhelming


Operative Class Discussion

Horizon Hunters

This might just be a playtest issue but losing martial guns to gain 'agile one handed melee weapons' seems a net loss. The only agile weapons we have are 1d4 weapons. So I can give up 1d8 or 1d10 weapons to get 1d4+4 weapons (if I take the strength boon) thar require I close the distance to my target. Not only that, I'm only wearing light armor, and I didn't full stack Dex because I took strength to get my to hit up to cap.

So now that I've moved to melee I get to aim and strike for a few extra d4... netting me about similar damage to what I could get from say 50ft away.

What's worse is that the more accuracy and damage dose reasons get the worse that striker becomes. 4d4+6 dealt from melee in light armor is always going to be worse than 4d8 or 4d10 from gun distances away woke hiding in cover. Even moreso when you can just ignore their cover.


The class was never meant to be a melee class by the look of most of their feats. It seems like a last moment addition which i can see why but they could easily do a Striker type 7th class when an Advanced Starfidner Player guide drops.

Horizon Hunters

1 person marked this as a favorite.

While I understand what you are saying, this is less an after thought and an attempt to stay true to the original operative in 1st ed. But if you are taking a character in light armor into a melee with high str, at least just make it one handed melee weapons instead of 'agile only' weapons. Or at the very least offer weapons that have better than a d4 damage.

This would allow for a high risk, high reward playstyle that deals more damage on average than just shooting a rifle at the cost of being in melee range of creatures while wearing light armor and not having the dex to back up that armor. More than that being that close you are also likely target number 1.

And as a final note there is exactly no class in the game right now that cares to use 1 handed melee weapons regardless. Soldier uses big 2 handers if they use melee at all. Solarian uses their solar weapon. Operative uses 'agile' weapons. What are all the other weapons for? Flavor? I get it, someone -could- pick them up and use them. But they could also shoot a gun instead. Yes, situations arise where melee weapons are better, but right now I don't even see much point for the others if the couple classes built with those weapons in mind can't use ~half.


The other melee weapons are for From the Front envoys.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The striker operative also has weird weapon proficiency. They end up with legendary proficiency with unarmed attacks and one-handed melee agile weapons, legendary proficiency in simple guns, master in martial guns, and then legendary in advanced guns (from the galaxy renowned feature). It seems strange that they are more proficiency in using advanced guns than martial guns.


Striker definitely seems like it's made in mind with options and weapons that the playtest just, uh, doesn't actually have a lot of? Your best option for melee appears to be playing something like a Pahtra or Vesk for access to a feat that grants you a 1d6 agile finesse claw, if you want to exclusively build with things that are in the playtest (discounting the ability to swap your ability boosts to the two free floats).

I think it's probably in a mildly rough place, but could pretty easily work fine as long as it gets more support for its playstyle. It doesn't mandate Str, and a Dex switch-hitter playstyle would be really welcome.

Horizon Hunters

A Drifting Shoebox wrote:

Striker definitely seems like it's made in mind with options and weapons that the playtest just, uh, doesn't actually have a lot of? Your best option for melee appears to be playing something like a Pahtra or Vesk for access to a feat that grants you a 1d6 agile finesse claw, if you want to exclusively build with things that are in the playtest (discounting the ability to swap your ability boosts to the two free floats).

I think it's probably in a mildly rough place, but could pretty easily work fine as long as it gets more support for its playstyle. It doesn't mandate Str, and a Dex switch-hitter playstyle would be really welcome.

Oh, I get that but not maximizing str further widens the gap in damage with still putting yourself in greater danger. You have better defense if you maximized Dex but then why even offer str?

Also I disagree with lead from the front envoy being the target of all the other melee weapons. They can make use of them, yes. But they are easily building to be the most defensive envoy and they can close the distance while leading by example but that is the only benefit they get in using a melee weapon. Alternatively, they could raise a shield to lead by example and then shoot something, forcing that something to potentially use an action to come to them. It's not like they even have a reaction they can use to disrupt one they get to melee against ranged opponents.


Marcus Versai wrote:


Oh, I get that but not maximizing str further widens the gap in damage with still putting yourself in greater danger. You have better defense if you maximized Dex but then why even offer str?

I assume with the intent of giving pure melee builds the option to exist, even if the agile restriction is kind of weird and counter to that. I definitely agree that it's not in a great place right now but the playtest weapon list is doing it absolutely no favors. I do feel like it's got a decent idea for a subclass though, and hopefully survey feedback can help it get polished up.

I could maybe see a split to a "full melee" strength subclass and a more focused "switch hitter" that leans into the agile/finesse and pistol route, and gives you some extra damage to make up for having less strength?


The latter already exists with Skirmisher since it's basically a John WIck CQC-Pistoler spec.

You don't get to use melee weapons but you can now use ranged weapons in melee.


I find it particularly bizarre that Strikers get their initial proficiency with unarmed attacks bumped up to Expert as part of their Exploit feature, and then… the rest of that feature's benefits entirely fail to apply to unarmed attacks. One suspects that the designers forgot unarmed attacks explicitly are not considered weapons (SF2E Playtest Rulebook, p. 170); certainly the Striker's flavour text's invoking "a martial artist who likes to show off" and "[uses their] body as a weapon" suggests they are intended to be potent unarmed combatants.

(Which reminds me that the Striker's unarmed attacks arguably could stand to gain the "you don’t take the normal -2 circumstance penalty when making a lethal attack with your fist or any other unarmed attacks" part of the PF2E monk's Powerful Fist feature, if nothing else.)


There's just a lot of bad worsding and typos in the playtest as a whole, but it's pretty clear what the intent is--Agile unarmed attacks are available.


TheWorstFighter wrote:

I find it particularly bizarre that Strikers get their initial proficiency with unarmed attacks bumped up to Expert as part of their Exploit feature, and then… the rest of that feature's benefits entirely fail to apply to unarmed attacks. One suspects that the designers forgot unarmed attacks explicitly are not considered weapons (SF2E Playtest Rulebook, p. 170); certainly the Striker's flavour text's invoking "a martial artist who likes to show off" and "[uses their] body as a weapon" suggests they are intended to be potent unarmed combatants.

(Which reminds me that the Striker's unarmed attacks arguably could stand to gain the "you don’t take the normal -2 circumstance penalty when making a lethal attack with your fist or any other unarmed attacks" part of the PF2E monk's Powerful Fist feature, if nothing else.)

It's even worse when you look at it from the perspective of a Vesk Warblood. That's an ancestry entirely dedicated to getting cool unarmed attacks, but none of the classes in the playtest interact with unarmed attacks in any way, other than the Striker Operative.

And then the Striker Operative as written is a trap that actually wants you to exclusively use agile d4 weapons (without ANY kind of action compression for using d4 agile weapons like Pathfinder Fighters or Rangers get), because none of the operative features work with your natural weapons.


SpontaneousLightning wrote:
The striker operative also has weird weapon proficiency. They end up with legendary proficiency with unarmed attacks

They actually do not get legendary proficiency with unarmed attacks. They start level 1 at expert with them, sure, but then only melee agile weapons and simple guns scale to master at level 5, unarmed attacks do not.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Rosshk wrote:
SpontaneousLightning wrote:
The striker operative also has weird weapon proficiency. They end up with legendary proficiency with unarmed attacks
They actually do not get legendary proficiency with unarmed attacks. They start level 1 at expert with them, sure, but then only melee agile weapons and simple guns scale to master at level 5, unarmed attacks do not.

I actually missed that. That is probably a typo, but definitely needs to be addressed for the full release. I do stand by what I said when I said that their weapon proficiency is weird:

- Legendary in agile melee weapons (but not finesse melee weapons, which is strange because most pathfinder 2nd edition abilities that reference one also references the other, see the rogue's sneak attack, the investigator's devise a stratagem, or the swashbuckler's precise strike, all of which work with agile and finesse weapons).
- Legendary in simple guns, since they only trade their martial gun proficiency.
- Legendary in advanced guns, since they get that as a level 19 class feature.
- Master in unarmed attacks, despite starting as an expert.
- Master in martial guns, despite the fact that they are legendary in advanced guns. If you take a weapon familiarity feat, they usually state "for the sake of proficiency, treat advanced weapons as martial weapons". A striker operative with a weapon familiarity feat that gives them familiarity with an advanced gun (such as the aeon rifle from unconventional weaponry) is worse at using that weapon than a striker that doesn't have a weapon familiarity feat.
- Master in all other weapons.


Ironically it's a very good ranged specialization because the feature doesn't lock you into melee weapon and it retains simple gun proficiency, when the simple Seeker Rifle easily beat every martial gun.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Bugs aside, Striker runs into a problem I think Paizo accidentally stumbles over sometimes in that its features just enable something, but don't actually provide a benefit like an option should.

Like every specialization exploit provides a bonus. It makes you better at something, but the Striker 'bonus' is just allowing you to use melee weapons.

Dataphiles

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I actually think Striker is one of the better specialisations at level 9. The level 1 benefit is pretty much blank text, but the best gun for operatives right now - the Seeker Rifle - is simple, so you don’t lose proficiency with that.

Meanwhile their level 9 ability is a non once per turn debilitating strike that works off ranged attacks. Far easier to use than Infiltrator, and applies in many more combats that Saboteur.

Sniper limits you to bad weapons unless your GM thinks the Seeker Rifle is a sniper rifle, mostly because those weapons constantly need to reload for Hair Trigger, and don’t get much benefit relative to the Seeker Rifle for the clunkiness of action eco.

Community / Forums / Starfinder / Second Edition Playtest / Playtest Class Discussion / Operative Class Discussion / Operative Striker seems underwhelming All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Operative Class Discussion