|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, it makes sense that lying is more difficult that telling the truth. At the very least, telling a lie that you want people to believe has to have a hint of truth behind the fabrications, then there's the obfuscation that has to be believable, then there's the conscious shift of body language to correct for the telltale signs of lying.
There's tons of little things that you have to consciously decide when you lie, IF YOU WANT THE LIE TO BE BELIEVABLE, as opposed to the relatively few things you have to decide when you tell the truth.
Lying out your butt and not caring how believable it is, on the other hand, takes about as much difficulty as telling the truth.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, it makes sense that lying is more difficult that telling the truth. At the very least, telling a lie that you want people to believe has to have a hint of truth behind the fabrications, then there's the obfuscation that has to be believable, then there's the conscious shift of body language to correct for the telltale signs of lying.
I don't actually think this is necessarily true. There are plenty of real-life examples of people lying as naturally as breathing, and being very good at it too. In fact, the ease with which they lie is often a big part of how persuasive they can come across, particularly as it's not uncommon for people to be good at deceiving themselves into believing their own baloney, if only in the moment. It's not that lying is totally effortless, but I'd say that the Deception check against your Perception DC, or your Perception roll against their Deception DC, is meant to represent your ability to pick up the telltale signs of strain, unease, or dissonance that often come with deceptive behavior. The action cost, in my opinion, ought to be the same as communicating normally, if only to avoid weird instances of ludonarrative dissonance where taking actions to "communicate" something conveys an unambiguous attempt to Lie in very metagamey terms.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
if all the creatures you encounter are going to subvert your class features by saying 'screw you' when you ask questions,And they should not.
As mentioned on a previous post this is up to the GM and the context of each situation and character when the ability is used.
The GM shouldn’t screw over the player, likewise the player shouldn’t try to screw the game and treat this ability as mind control with every use granting a binary of “divulge all plot information” or lose a turn.
The choice is actually to answer one question or lie.
Ignoring those two options means the ability does nothing at all.
Literally nobody said the target should lose a turn. That's the topic of the entire thread, in fact: Technically it kind of says that and it's clearly not intended.
But they could also just answer the question. It's really not a big deal.
|
|
You somehow manage to say that as though that is not exactly what the ability says for the success and critical success results.Or you could just ... not use the Lie activity that the Pointed Question action doesn't require.But yes, welcome to the point, I'm so glad you could finally join us. This is why it's strange that people would try so hard to avoid running the ability as written. The main distinction is that the Lie activity would be used as a free action, which is not RAW, but would avoid disabling a NPC for a whole round and giving away their attempt to Lie.
Not sure how much more clear that part of it needs to be.Apparently a lot clearer than that, given how reluctant some people appear to be to actually run Pointed Question as written, yourself included. As Super Zero mentions, this is all the ability does now, so being this antagonistic would invalidate its current function entirely. Of course, no amount of clarity will help when the GM just wants to do what they feel like, rules be damned, so that's another can of worms entirely.
...Regarding taking 3 actions to answer untruthfully and only a free action if they want to answer truthfully, we pretty well established that this would be a huge game balance problem quite a while ago. Diplomacy check success => target gets Stunned 3 isn't a thing, and knowing that they answered immediately proves truth while them taking an entire round to respond proves deception pretty much negates the entire rules text regarding a bonus to Perception checks to Sense Motive.
So yeah. At this point I am strongly suspecting that people are on here trolling and arguing things because they think that they can win some sort of points on the internet rather than because it would actually lead to a fun and enjoyable game to play with friends.
Maybe you
This is a very hostile response for two people saying basically the same thing.
The choice is actually to answer one question or lie.
And an answer you don't like is still an answer.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Did you read the ability?
Whether it answers truthfully or not, you clean something from its body language, and it is off-guard to the Strike you make using Devise a Stratagem against it before the end of your turn.
Did you read the ability?
Whether it answers truthfully or not, you clean something from its body language, and it is off-guard to the Strike you make using Devise a Stratagem against it before the end of your turn.
So, to be clear, if you we're the GM, you'd rule it so your Investigator gave up free action recall knowledges, some of the best healing in the game, or infinite free elixirs and insight coffees... for a strictly worse version of feint?
Also the current premaster version of Pointed Question can't even be used in combat. So if you were to run an Interrogation Investigator right now you'd just the rule their main subclass feature does nothing?
You know you can just say you hate the Interrogation Investigator and don't want it in your games. It's ok. We won't judge you.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You know you can just say you hate the Interrogation Investigator and don't want it in your games. It's ok. We won't judge you.
Throwing out ad homimems just make you look ridiculous.
I don't know why multiple people are operating under the assumption that I would never have the targeted npc lie or give up info, when I never claimed that.
I also don't understand the hostility towards me by you lot but this feels like it stopping being about the Investigator awhile ago.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, to be clear, if you we're the GM, you'd rule it so your Investigator gave up free action recall knowledges, some of the best healing in the game, or infinite free elixirs and insight coffees... for a strictly worse version of feint?Did you read the ability?
Whether it answers truthfully or not, you clean something from its body language, and it is off-guard to the Strike you make using Devise a Stratagem against it before the end of your turn.
It's at range, so it isn't strictly worse. And while the critical failure result is bad during a conversation it probably doesn't matter much against somebody who's already physically attacking you.
My gun-wielding Investigator who hasn't found many useful times to use this ability will probably use it in combat fairly often now. I suspect she won't have a relevant question a lot of the time, which is actually fitting for the character (she's a sprite) and with the question startling enemies into being Off-Guard. It's also based on one of her best skills instead of Deception, but I guess if had built her for Feinting I would have improved that instead.
Roll a mediocre Devise that's close to a hit (or good one that's close to a crit!) but not quite good enough to be confident it'll work? "Who stole the cookies from the cookie jar???"
Then shoot 'em. Works great. I wouldn't have taken the methodology for this and it isn't the strongest way to use it, but it is a use that will probably come up more often.
But in this case I don't even care about the answer. Which makes the drama about having to answer the question make less sense.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know you can just say you hate the Interrogation Investigator and don't want it in your games. It's ok. We won't judge you.Throwing out ad homimems just make you look ridiculous.
You're right and I shouldn't have added that sentence. I apologize.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
s'all good
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How would people's ruling interact with a raging Barbarian, or other target that is prevented from taking concentrate trait actions? Would they be allowed to speak an untruth with no Deception roll (and thus truth status automatically determined), or are they always forced to tell a true and relevant answer to the Pointed Question?
Depending on ruling, that might impact what banter a player controlled raging Barbarian is allowed to say in the middle of a rage. No untrue sarcasm for you!
Also suggests the strongest Pointed Questions in terms of information gathering are the ones phrased in such a way that the expected answer is a Yes or No.
Personally, I do agree with Karthak1 that the response is part of the success/critical success and happens immediately. Here, if they choose to respond with an untruth, then the Lie happens with no timing window framed (no phrasing like Lie on their turn, or tell the truth to you on their turn) so it happens immediately as part of the success and part of the action itself. If they had intended it to happen on the target's turn, it would be phrased the target responds to the question on their turn, and the ability would have some kind of duration listed, like Bon Mot.
The only duration is mentioned until end of the user's turn, which isn't even applied to the response part. "Whether it answered truthfully or not" also implies that it has answered by the time the 2nd part of the effect is applied.
Lastly, consider all the actions which invoke other actions without costing extra turns as part of the success. Like, say, Escape. Would you force a player that critically succeeds to spend an action for the "You can then Stride 5 feet" part? It seems to be the same thing here, but instead of the character using Stride, it is the target using Lie.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think ultimately, the most sensible way to rule things is that a lie in response to the aforementioned ability, doesn't consume any actions from the target. If you run it that way, then the ability is still good, but not broken.
Just saying... don't like how people are saying "the Off-Guard is good" when Create a Diversion + Confabulator exist and doesn't require you to use your methodology choice for something that grants a useless skil feat and a 1 once per hour per creature feature... that can potentialy do nothing many times depending on the target also... the Interrogation's Pointed Question has similar value to one usage type of a skill, that also uses the same atribute as it, not even a different one! That's not good.
The Off-Guard is a cherry on top of the other buffs to what used to be a social-only ability.
It's icing, not the whole cake. The cake is getting information from goons and mob bosses and at the same time getting a free Off-Guard that doesn't mess with your CaD cooldown.
The Off-Guard is a cherry on top of the other buffs to what used to be a social-only ability.
It's icing, not the whole cake. The cake is getting information from goons and mob bosses and at the same time getting a free Off-Guard that doesn't mess with your CaD cooldown.
I just view that i could just Coerce the goon or boss outside of combat, i normaly just ask for my team to not kill it. And needing it in middle of combat is such a narrow use that didn't even existed before... it can be good but... as the second comment in this post and others said (i don't like "No Idea!" as a answer rly...), not many like the ideia of the boss just saying how to beat their plan or smt by just an action...
And CaD cooldown right at lv 2 can get better if the objetive is just off-guard a creature, doesn't rly need that hard of a investiment since you are a Investigator.