One of my players wants his familiar to Avoid Notice. Until now, I've never considered the notion. Can familiars do exploration activities? Do they need to be Commanded to do a specific exploration activity? Can a creature Avoid Notice if it never rolls initiative in the first place? Does it just roll Stealth but only use it to determine its state of detection?
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One of my players wants his familiar to Avoid Notice. Until now, I've never considered the notion. Can familiars do exploration activities? Do they need to be Commanded to do a specific exploration activity? Can a creature Avoid Notice if it never rolls initiative in the first place? Does it just roll Stealth but only use it to determine its state of detection?
The rules for commanding familiars are clearly set up for encounters. Beyond that is a GM call.
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Can familiars do exploration activities?
Nope. Check out an Eidolon's Act Together: it states "This lets you each use separate exploration activities like Avoid Notice as you travel." Without that, it doesn't get it's own .
EDIT: I guess you COULD use your exploration activity to Command a familiar to Avoid Notice though it'd do nothing for initiative and it'd just be to see if the enemies notice it.
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Can familiars do exploration activities?Nope. Check out an Eidolon's Act Together: it states "This lets you each use separate exploration activities like Avoid Notice as you travel." Without that, it doesn't get it's own .
EDIT: I guess you COULD use your exploration activity to Command a familiar to Avoid Notice though it'd do nothing for initiative and it'd just be to see if the enemies notice it.
What does that have to do with anything? I thought eidolons aren't minions, let alone familiars.
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Still waiting on the promised clarifications.
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There are some designers interviews and the Act Together note and summoners archetype note thats keep implicit that minions cannot do exploration activities in parallel to you because you need to constantly command them.
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Because you don't have Act Together, only you or your eidolon can perform an exploration activity at one time, so for instance you couldn't both be Searching or Investigating.
This make some GMs consider that is not possible to make 2 exploration activities at same time with minions.
I'm GM that follows this concept. I allow a minion or a companion to make exploration activities but only if your activity is command them what effectivelly forbids 2 parallel activities.
Can familiars do exploration activities?Nope. Check out an Eidolon's Act Together: it states "This lets you each use separate exploration activities like Avoid Notice as you travel." Without that, it doesn't get it's own .
As SuperParkourio mentions, this is more than a bit of a non sequitur. Just because Eidolons are explicitly allowed to do something doesn't prove that Minions are not allowed to.
EDIT: I guess you COULD use your exploration activity to Command a familiar to Avoid Notice though it'd do nothing for initiative and it'd just be to see if the enemies notice it.
And considering the rather drastic problematic repercussions that this ruling would have on a scenario involving the entire party sneaking around in exploration mode (the Minion could use Avoid Notice, but the master couldn't since they can't use two exploration activities and commanding a minion is audible and easily noticed), you can surely see why the ambiguity is important.
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Now I'm imagining a party trying to creep past a sleeping dragon while the wizard is shouting "Be quiet! Don't let him notice you!" to his familiar and the ranger is shouting "Tip toe! Tip toe!" to his animal companion.
Now I'm imagining a party trying to creep past a sleeping dragon while the wizard is shouting "Be quiet! Don't let him notice you!" to his familiar and the ranger is shouting "Tip toe! Tip toe!" to his animal companion.You know, "neither" is an option. Doesn't get a roll, doesn't get separately rolled against either. Not a protagonist; more like equipment.
So you're suggesting the familiar can't do it's own exploration activities but benefits from yours?
if you Avoid Notice, you make one Stealth check and it applies to both? Sure. Take cat, stick in backpack. 'Minion: ride on shoulder now please.'
The mechanics partially work. The narrative only works for size tiny familiars. Corgi Familiar and any size animal companion would need different narrative descriptions.
The part of the mechanics that doesn't work is that the familiar would be unable to use their class feature type abilities while in a backpack. Tremorsense, for example, would require the familiar to be on the ground. Characters are still allowed to use their perception while using exploration activities. A character that has darkvision is still allowed to see in the dark while using Avoid Notice. But a character that is getting tremorsense from their familiar is now no longer allowed to use it while using Avoid Notice. So that still seems like a significant detriment.
The only thing to go on is in the minion rules it seems.
Pg 301
Minion
If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute,
mindless minions usually don’t act, animals follow their
instincts, and sapient minions act how they please.
basically this means the GM decides what animal companions and familiars are doing outside of combat. And if they want to they can delegate that choice to the player.
I dont know, I think I would just delegate what their familiar is doing in general to the player but not in total, use exploration activities mostly as normal because that will make things easier. When combat starts go back to the normal combat rules for familiars unless the familiar is something like a mile away from the player and I have to come up with something different.
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I think I'm gonna let the familiar Avoid Notice but use the Stealth roll for detection only.
If the spell would affect an ability the creature doesn't have, the spell doesn't give the creature that ability unless the spell says it does. For example, a spell that causes your companion to make a Strike wouldn't let a familiar make a Strike but would give it all other benefits of the spell.
I know Avoid Notice isn't a spell, but I think I'll apply the same principle here.
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I read the clause on eidolons as meaning that the companion defaults to using the same exploration activity as the PC, including the same rolls' results for simplicity's sake.
That would be my standard adjudication for such a situation.
I might become convinced that the companion should be considered a separate character that simply by default takes the same exploration activity as the PC. But then I would always apply this ruling, regardless whether it is beneficial or detrimental to the party.
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What does that have to do with anything? I thought eidolons aren't minions, let alone familiars.Can familiars do exploration activities?Nope. Check out an Eidolon's Act Together: it states "This lets you each use separate exploration activities like Avoid Notice as you travel." Without that, it doesn't get it's own .
EDIT: I guess you COULD use your exploration activity to Command a familiar to Avoid Notice though it'd do nothing for initiative and it'd just be to see if the enemies notice it.
Mainly because it's making it quite clear that the ONLY reason Eidolons can do exploration activities is because of Act Together: a Minion is much more limited in their actions and doesn't get a specific callout. Seems pretty clear IMO: with the remaster, they could have made a similar callout for familiars but they didn't so I can't come to the conclusion that they somehow Do get to do them.
Edit: Now, feel free to run your table how you want. Have fun. You asked a rules question [hence my answer] and not an advice question [what's a good way to run it].
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No! Rules just don't say nothing about how minions works in exploration.
The best tip that we have is as pointed by graystone is the Act Together that authorizes eidolons (that are "pseudo-minions" that are way more stronger and flexible than minions specially in terms of actions) to make "separate exploration activities" and its archetype version that says that due the lack of Act Together they cannot do "separate exploration activities" anymore.
So due the lack of rules about minions works in exploration is up to the GM to decide. So due this lack of rules is easier to a GM to use similar rules as basis (like as oriented by GM Core) to rule about this.
So not become surprised if a GM doesn't authorize the use of minions for explorations activities or to limit you to choose between you or your minion making explorations activities due the default need to command them or requiring that have Independent ability to do parallel explorations activities with you or simply forbidding them to do explorations activities at all restricting this to eidolons due how currently eidolons balance works.
All these options can be take by GM because we don't have rules about this.
No! Rules just don't say nothing about how minions works in exploration.
The best tip that we have is as pointed by graystone is the Act Together that authorizes eidolons (that are "pseudo-minions" that are way more stronger and flexible than minions specially in terms of actions) to make "separate exploration activities" and its archetype version that says that due the lack of Act Together they cannot do "separate exploration activities" anymore.
So due the lack of rules about minions works in exploration is up to the GM to decide. So due this lack of rules is easier to a GM to use similar rules as basis (like as oriented by GM Core) to rule about this.
So not become surprised if a GM doesn't authorize the use of minions for explorations activities or to limit you to choose between you or your minion making explorations activities due the default need to command them or requiring that have Independent ability to do parallel explorations activities with you or simply forbidding them to do explorations activities at all restricting this to eidolons due how currently eidolons balance works.
All these options can be take by GM because we don't have rules about this.
The minion rules do tell us something.. its not completely absent of any direction whatsoever.
Mindless minions do nothing after a minute no direction.
Animals start following their instincts.
Sapient creatures do what they want.
Is this nothing? Or does it mean they act like any other NPC the GM controls?
While in exploration companions become NPCs that a GM has to make decision about.
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Mindless minions do nothing after a minute no direction.
Animals start following their instincts.
Sapient creatures do what they want.Is this nothing?
It is not quite nothing, but it is pretty close.
Is Farien an animal, or sapient?
If I don't give commands to Farien, what does he do before that minute of time elapses? Given the consideration that we are discussing Exploration mode where time is not tracked carefully, at what point does that minute of time duration start?
What if I do give a command?
If I do give a command, how long does he follow that command for? If I do not repeat my command, does Farien continue to follow the command for a minute before doing ... which ever of those options Farien is categorized into?
Since I have given a command, does Farien count as a minion that has not been given a command? Do these rules even apply at that point?
Or does it mean they act like any other NPC the GM controls?
While in exploration companions become NPCs that a GM has to make decision about.
A familiar is part of my class budget. If that becomes controlled by the GM, then that is a problem.
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Is Farien an animal, or sapient?
Choose your response wisely.
Given that Farien is talking to us and regularly replies with witty quips I would guess sapient applies.
Mindless minions do nothing after a minute no direction.
Animals start following their instincts.
Sapient creatures do what they want.Is this nothing?
What if I do give a command?
If I do give a command, how long does he follow that command for? If I do not repeat my command, does Farien continue to follow the command for a minute before doing ... which ever of those options Farien is categorized into?
Since I have given a command, does Farien count as a minion that has not been given a command? Do these rules even apply at that point?
My best inkling is your command would be like telling an NPC that has a strong interest in following what you say and trusts you to do something. But it would not be the mechanic that happens in combat and would not have rules tied to it. GM needs to determine what the familiar does based on its relationship to your pc and its own interests just like any other npc.
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My best inkling is your command would be like telling an NPC that has a strong interest in following what you say and trusts you to do something. But it would not be the mechanic that happens in combat and would not have rules tied to it. GM needs to determine what the familiar does based on its relationship to your pc and its own interests just like any other npc.
I don't expect that this will be a popular or well-liked ruling among most players. Minions that are part of the character are, well, part of the character.
No one gets to play Farien except me.
Mindless minions do nothing after a minute no direction.
Animals start following their instincts.
Sapient creatures do what they want.Is this nothing?
A familiar is part of my class budget. If that becomes controlled by the GM, then that is a problem.Or does it mean they act like any other NPC the GM controls?
While in exploration companions become NPCs that a GM has to make decision about.
I have some questions for this last part too.
As i run things I just have to look at the situation at hand and make a call that seems appropriate. usually i am leaving it up to my players to tell me what they want their familiar to do.
My best inkling is your command would be like telling an NPC that has a strong interest in following what you say and trusts you to do something. But it would not be the mechanic that happens in combat and would not have rules tied to it. GM needs to determine what the familiar does based on its relationship to your pc and its own interests just like any other npc.I don't expect that this will be a popular or well-liked ruling among most players. Minions that are part of the character are, well, part of the character.
No one gets to play Farien except me.
I agree it wouldnt be popular if players dont trust the GM do do it faithfully to how they see their familiar, and I am leaving that up to my players as i believe i should.
I actually don't want the extra work of playing a player's familiar to be on me anyway.Animal companions and familiars are faithful to their pc and when command animal is used they 100% do what is asked of them.
Now translating that to out of combat there is no reason to not treat them as still being faithful to their pc's wishes just because command animal is not being used and if a GM is not doing that because the rules don't specify how they act in exploration beyond they do as they please then there is a problem.
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Verisimilitude is certainly not one of PF2e's strong points.
I'm going to write something that a lot of people don't like when we write here on the forum, but the PF2e minion rules were not made to treat minions as different creatures, but rather as part of your character's power.
In practice the game treat minions as powers that have a token and a sheet and that can be killed/destroyed/dispelled, but the game does not see them as an independent characters, it is used as an extension of its powers as it would be with any other ability or feat.
That's why the mechanics of the minions are ingrained outside of the encounter mode, simply because the minions were not made to work outside of this mode, especially independently. This is a discussion that has existed since the game was released, but it almost always goes back to the fact that minions such as pets, family members and companions were not designed to be played independently in exploration mode, at most with the PC frequently commanding them.
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Its odd though isnt it?
Most of the discussion about where familiars are most useful is not in combat but while scouting.
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That's why the mechanics of the minions are ingrained outside of the encounter mode, simply because the minions were not made to work outside of this mode
Don't really think that's correct. The rules are nebulous outside encounter mode because the game in general is more nebulous outside of combat.
Familiars aren't designed to give you extra exploration activities, but they aren't designed to stop functioning either. So in practice, a player says they want to do something and the GM figures out how to adjudicate it and we go from there. So RAW being "The GM decides" isn't that big of a deal because that's how that section of the game is meant to be handled anyways.
All this hemming and hawing over strict adherence to RAW capabilities is more like a forum fiction that makes for an interesting debate subject, but it has nothing to do with actually playing the game.
By the way, the Independent ability explicitly only functions in encounters. It has no bearing on whether familiars can do exploration activities.
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It's annoying that most of these questions could be cleared up by the company but are not.
Clearly this is a deliberate strategy, and I dont have have enough information to know the why's.
All this hemming and hawing over strict adherence to RAW capabilities is more like a forum fiction that makes for an interesting debate subject, but it has nothing to do with actually playing the game.
I would partially agree with that. It would be better if the rules were specific in stating that outside of combat the GM is given authority to decide how long the minion does their tasks for - preferably with some examples of what should and shouldn't be allowed.
It's annoying that most of these questions could be cleared up by the company but are not.
Clearly this is a deliberate strategy, and I dont have have enough information to know the why's.
One, they have mentioned that they are looking into clearing this up. I linked to it earlier.
Two, it is easy to clear up these questions for one particular set of players. Not so easy to clear it up in a way that will make all players, or even most players satisfied with the results.
There are a lot of different types of minions. And even within one type of minion, such as familiars, there are still a lot of variation between players of what they are expected to be allowed or not allowed to do.
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Seems like being vague allows each table to decide how things work and believe their ruling to be RAI.
If the designers clarify their intent they open themselves up to criticism of both their explained rulings and their initial phrasing of the rules.
In such an environment, is there any upside in clarifying the published rules?
As it stands,anyone who disagress can argue amongst themselves,but not with the designers.
If this is their reasoning, I cant really fault it.
It resembles centuries of practice in both law and religion,just less bloody.
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Taking from Mark Seifter’s comments on how his familiar worked, it seems outside of Encounter mode it acts pretty much like another PC.
It can go talk to strangers on its own, try to figure things out, then report back to the party.
So, I think the idea that their strict Minion rules are for Encounters, but free to do whatever during Exploration/Downtime, seems to be the intent of dev team.
In the end, it seems to be GM/Player agreement.
Except during the play test Mark said behind the scenes all players have two actions in exploration mode, move and one activity. Eidolons get to do more because of act together, they are the only creatures that are not PCs that can do things while the player is doing things. Everything else is choose one.
If your having a social encounter or RP moment, then sure the extra creature can do things, but during exploration mode you don't get a free exploration activity for the price of a low level familiar or AC feat.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Familiars act as they like outside encounters, which generally means the player roleplaying them how they wish. If they want to go sneak around to gather info, that'll generally be done with Avoid Notice.
Moreover, the three things familiars are any good at by default is "perceiving", "sneaking", and "acrobatics", so it really doesn't make sense to not let them do those things.
As for "why does eidolon specify they get their own exploration activity", it's because eidolons share their actions with the Summoner and don't fall under the "act independently" clause like familiars do.
But, I feel like I've been in half a dozen of these threads already, so I'll just state my main point. If the rules didn't have any mention of familiars getting to act independently, what clarification would I want from Paizo? I'd want them to say, "Outside of combat, familiars can act normally however they like." And that's basically what they said, so I already have the clarification I need. Outside of combat, after a minute or so to make sure everything's clear, a familiar can do what it wants. If it wants to sneak around for information, then the GM will probably use Avoid Notice to represent that activity.